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tv   AM Joy  MSNBC  October 15, 2017 7:00am-9:00am PDT

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tais really quite simple.est it comes in the mail, you pull out the tube and you spit in it, which is something southern girls are taught you're not supposed to do. you seal it and send it back and then you wait for your results. it's that simple. that's a rap for me. now it's time for "am joy." >> when the international community gives iran a pass for all of these things, the ballistic missile testing and arms sales and they look the other way in the name of keeping a deal, then you are looking at something too big to fail. what we are trying to say, just because we all made the deal and
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just because that was done previously it doesn't mean you go back and look and say, is it still working? >> good morning and welcome to "am joy." the latest moves by the trump administration are keeping the planet on edge. this week trump made a big show of avowing the iran deal. stop short of raveling it, kicking the can to congress, as trump tends to do. >> we will see what happens. we will see what they come back with. they may come back with something very satisfactory to me, and if they don't within a short period of time i will terminate the deal. >> meanwhile, there's the looming prospect of nuclear conflict with north korea, who we have zero diplomatic relations with, and renewed their threat to launch ballistic missiles to guam. president, if you are listening to the tv, guam like puerto rico is part of the united states.
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it's bad enough trump is fighting with pyongyang, and kim jong-un. he is also trading barbs with till tillerson. joining me now is david from "the atlantic," and the author "tails from the pentagon," and a "washington post" columnist. and a power-packed panel. five folks here to talk with. i want to start with the castration comment.
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this is from the "washington post" on friday. as corker sees it the biggest problem is trump is neutering tillerson. this was rex tillerson this morning. he was on cnn and was asked about that particular quote and this is what he said. >> he said that the president has, quote, castrated you. >> i think this is an unconventional president and he uses unconventional communication tools. this is a place you know better than i, this is not a place that likes to change. >> you have a cattle ranch. you don't want anything to say a
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suggestion -- >> i want to throw this at you. >> too much information. >> the issue is whether or not the secretary of state speaks for the president of the united states. i am sure the folks in iran would like to know if this guy speaks for the president. >> tillerson just a few weeks ago, and it feels like years ago, he said the president speaks for himself. >> gabe, you wrote a piece in "vanity fair" this week where donald trump is saying as aides as saying i hate everybody in the white house. to use in your piece, he is
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unraveling. is rex tillerson at this point fully present as the secretary of state or trying to get out? >> that's a great question. i spoke to a senior administration official in the last few days that referred to tillerson as, quote, completely checked out. i think you saw that in his body language with jake tapper. i think the question for all of us, though, is the damage in this relationship has serious implications given the stakes of the issues on the table, whether it's the iran deal or the escalating crisis in north korea. >> yeah, let's start with iran. david, let's start with you on hrau iran, are they complying? >> they are kwucomplying with t deal. but that deal omitted what we should be concerned about most.
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it was to radically increase the military budget, and they have become more adventurous in yemen and in syria and also with a program of missile testing. missiles are not part of the deal. generally, iranian behavior outside of its borders is not part of the deal, and so when you see the consequences of the deal is to empower iran to act worse in areas outside the deal, and so everything outside the silo, those things are just going as badly as we feared in 2015. >> isn't it likely, then, the logical conclusion i would come to as a layperson would be if they are complying with the deal itself and then you trash the deal you actually decide we are going to cut off the deal
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doesn't that encourage iran to do more missile testing, because the implication is this country wants to go to war with us so we better have missiles tested and ramp up our military activity because the country wants to invade us, and they did invade our neighbor. >> on a separate track, you continue to work on the issues david raised which are real problems but don't take apart something better than the alternative on the nuclear stuff. one of the things striking to me, when you look at secretary of defense mattis, he's somebody who has been viewed as a hawk on iran, and incredibly seriously takes up issues and one of the strongest voices arguing to trump to not scrap the deal because the alternative is worse and we have other avenues, both diplomatic and otherwise.
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>> and i think the problem with the position is two-fold. one, we would like to get a deal with north korea and the notion that we make a nuclear deal and then walk away from a deal is not going to help us win north korea. secondly, we can't bust this deal and expect good things to happen. we have a lot of other countries who are our allies who are also on the deal. david conceded right off the top of iran is living within the con fines of this deal, meaning they will not have a nuclear weapon for something like 15 years, maybe more. this is a big thing for the united states, for our allies. if you just bust this deal the way trump is suggesting -- he really was a little of this and a little of that in his statement. it's a lot of words. we don't know where this leads. he kicked it to congress. if we bust this deal the consequences inside iran and whether the force is hostile to the regime have any chance of
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going forward we are making things worse. >> and the president of iran issued a statement by reuters saying no president with revoke an international deal and iran will continue to respect it as long as it has our interests. >> in no way am i defending iran or north korea, but from the world perspective, you have to imagine the governments are sitting back and saying we knew what the obama and carter and bush doctrine was, and crazy won't do it, and maybe it's castration, the term we are throwing around. all we know is he uses very
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stark and drastic language and wants to pull out of deals, and he taupbts north korea about the possibility of a war. his own chairman of the foreign senate relations committee says donald trump might lead us into world war iii, and what incentive does iran have to say if you pull out of the deal -- >> the alternative is not busting up the deal or living with the deal. the alternative -- look, the problem with the deal, you can't exit the deal the way you exited it, and obama designed it the benefits came up front and the benefits to the united states is phasing over a period. we are tracked with the deal, because they still have the $100 billion they have to -- >> they also could finance a war with us. >> we are not here in a court of law, and the point is it's
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money -- >> the president keeps implying that the money gave -- >> taxpayer dollars. >> it's a resource for destruction we were able to withhold from them and now have given them. what would a normal policy look like? it would be that you focus on the deal is there, unfortunately, and you have to now work within it because they have received the benefits from it and you focus on the issues that are immediately present and you do that by building an international coalition for a new round of pressure, both economic and otherwise, to constrain their activity. the problem with donald trump is he has done it in an impulseful way, his actions were immediately criticized by the leaders of france -- >> he has no secretary of state that anybody believes has credibility. >> before the deal went into affect, before the sanctions, iran's most important trading
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partners included japan and india. any u.s. policy has to loop in those, too. it's a very ambitious diplomatic effort the kind that we have -- i don't want to use the word corker used, but it's -- >> gelded. >> who wants a secretary of state that has to go on tv and say i'm still intact. >> if we were having a normal debate with a normal president who proceeded in the ways that david just laid out that would imempl imply you have a normal state department, and if congress goes ahead to unleash new sanctions on iran, we don't know what would happen. we are short many of the international ambassadors that don't have a secretary of state that anybody in their right mind believes has any credibility with the white house. we have new reports that donald
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trump is taking his advise on the issues of foreign policy from people like shawn hannity and chicky haley. >> that is just so much drama. i mean, it's really -- it's all this palace intrigue. every member works hard to put all options on the table for the president. i am glad to be living in new york for that reason, i don't want to be near the drama and gossip. >> from your reporting, is donald trump taking his iran advice from nikki haley and shawn hannity? >> yes, he does think highly of nikki haley, and she's a name that comes up as a possible replacement for tillerson.
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and this is clearly a position that donald trump is eyeing to fill. everybody i talked to in and around the administration is not holding their breath that rex tillerson will be in the job in the long term. the idea he turns to outside voices for his iran policy makes complete sense. what i want to touch on quick, the way in which trump has tried to tap down the idea that he's losing control of his administration, having kelly go out for a briefing, and that fuels the idea that he wants him to quell the talk when he is struggling to deal with the points domestic and internationally. >> he has not replaced john kelly in homeland security. >> if you leave the equation with nikki haley and sean has
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not -- >> does she have foreign policy? >> she works closely with partners in europe, nato -- >> you think she would be perfectly suited to give advice -- as the iran whisperer. >> unlike sean hannity, she's super smart. >> you let this woman apply her brain for nine months to the iran problem, i would listen to her, yes. >> the word you just used, she's a "her." we know how donald trump looks at women. will she have more power than rex tillerson does? i highly doubt that. i do. >> it's not clear from the reporting that we are getting -- >> but i think she's a very smart woman.
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>> maybe he'll call you. >> i'll talk to nikki haley. >> thank you. we'll be back. great panel. coming up, could donald trump's tough talk lead us to actual war? colonel lawrence jefferson joins us next. he's the boss. she only had me by one grade. we bought our first home together in 2010. his family had used another insurance product but i was like well i've had usaa for a while, why don't we call and check the rates? it was an instant savings and i should've changed a long time ago. there's no point in looking elsewhere really. we're the tenneys and we're usaa members for life. usaa. get your insurance quote today. when it comes to strong bones, are you on the right path? we have postmenopausal osteoporosis... ..and a high risk for fracture, so with our doctors... ...we chose prolia®...
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we' are going to see what happens with north korea. we are totally prepared for numerous things. we will see what happens with north korea. i will say, look, if something will happen where we can negotiate, i always am open to that, but other than negotiation, believe me, we are ready more so than we have ever been. >> with reports of people around
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donald trump saying he is unraveling, and even republicans are now wondering mostly with reporters if members of trump cabinet would tackle him if he tried the launch a nuclear war. joining me to help answer that question is former chief of staff to secretary of state, colin powell. people i talk to, myself, we wake up with this sort of constant sense of destabilization because it's not clear whether the things that trump is doing, the things he says and tweets are just making us feel anxious or whether they actually could pose a threat of real war with iran or north korea. what is your assessment? >> i think his purpose, such as it is, is to make our enemies anxious. as many of my south korea colleagues said troops and
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families and citizens, they are very worried about what might happen from korea, for example. >> nikki haley was on "meet the press" this morning, and she talked about iran. this is her this morning talking about that. >> the whole reason we are looking at this iran agreement is because of north korea. what we are seeing now with iran is don't let it become the next north korea. what this says to north korea, don't expect us to engage in a bad deal. if at any point we come up with something, expect us to follow-through with it. expect us to hold you accountable. you won't just have a free for all. >> we just had david who admitted they are in compliance with the deal, and if we get out of it wouldn't it send a message to north korea, don't make a
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teal. >> the german minister said what trump has done is make the iran agreement making it a domestic play thing, meaning domestic politics. by doing that he's assured that the new agreement will fail ultimately, and then what you have is one choice, war. that's what tom. >> the end game is to provoke iran enough so we can go to war? >> i think we are doing the same thing in 2003, and i was very intimate with that process in iraq. we are marching down the road to war. if you think iraq was a bad war wait until you see iran. >> explain for people who don't understand why it would be worse
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than the catastrophic mess we wound up with in iran? >> the first visit trump made -- he said yesterday in his remarks, he said iran is spreading global destruction, chaos. saudi arabia is the one doing that. the bloody war in yemen, which sad to say we are involved in, with resraouling and targeting, it's the bloodiest war on the face of the earth right now, the greatest humanitarian disaster since world war ii. we are part of that. saudi arabia is destroying the gulf cooperation council by its feud with qatar. the saudis are far worst than iran and we are getting ready to make that situation worse by taking on iran militarily. there's no other choice. if you say it's unacceptable like tillerson did, that iran
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has a nuclear weapon, you get it through diplomacy or war. >> the iran hawks that are in the united states senate, they seem to be open to war and then you listen to general mccaffery. >> i don't want us to take our eye off north korea. the current language out of the administration, the lack of a diplomatic and serious engagement strategy, in my view, has us sliding toward war by next summer. >> now we are talking about a country with nuclear weapons and icbm's that could, in theory, reach the united states. >> i agree with you 100%. i think taking our eye off that
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situation is dangerous. you are probably aware of this, but we are looking at a bad situation in venezuela right now. 25,000 plus refugees in columbia, already, and we have the iranians and others moving towards that province. we have a serious situation developing in syria. i will tell every gi out there, you have had 17 straight years of war, get ready for 17 more. >> oh, my god. at the same time, i would be remiss if i didn't ask you, you said donald trump might be trying to send a message to our adversaries, he means business. but on the russian sanctions, he's doing nothing. >> russia and china are down there in venezuela right now giving the venezuelans another
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course of action, and we might see sitko owned by russia or china very soon. >> this is not good news. just before i let you go, which should we be the most concerned about with the open conflict with? >> the more serious situation by far is korea and the peninsula, because that's a very situation that could cause enormous casualties. bannon's all out war with the establishment. more on that after the break.
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♪ ♪ you nervous? ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ breitbart's steve bannon may not be in the white house but he's still promising a season of war. more on that next.
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right now it's a season of
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war against a gop establishment. this is not my war. this is our war. [ applause ] and you all didn't start it. the establishment started it. but i will tell you one thing. you all are going to finish it. you know, there's time for mea culpa. can you come to a stick and condemn senator corker and come to a stick, a microphone and say i'm not going to vote for mitch mcconnell for majority leader. >> donald trump's former chief strategist, breitbart's steve bannon declared war on the republican establishment. to deliver an ultimateam to republicans, declare your loyalty to donald trump or face
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opposition. he calls it the league of extraordinary candidates. you are not watching the previews to a marvel movie. he's targeting senators like orrin hatch or flake. moore beat trump's pick, plunging donald trump into his latest mood, according to reports. moore who represents bannon has a habit of saying things like this. >> now we have blacks and whites fightin fighting. some teach you must worship this way are completely opposite. >> i believe in the second amendment.
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>> extraordinary simply doesn't begin to cover it. joining me now white house reporter, and conservative commentator, and national republican consultant. my league of extraordinary panelists, because i love the marvel sound of it. there isn't something juvenile about bannon. he's up there saying you will declare yourself to donald trump, and he created a league of extraordinary candidates, that sounds silly. it's trying to replace gop leaders like prince. is that something the breitbart world wants? >> this is something steve has wanted for a long time now.
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back in 2014 before anybody knew who steve bannon was, steve was trying to do this same thing and challenge incumbent on the republican side, across the board in louisiana, mississippi, and tennessee. he lost every single one of those because at the time, breitbart is on the fringe. flash forward two years later, everybody knows who steve bannon is, and he has the mercer money backing him. it's one thing to have -- >> bob and rebecca mercer, they bank roll, not just breitbart but kellyanne conway. >> they built a network to try and activate that to take out these establishment republicans who they are really putting the blame for lack of donald trump's success, they will put that on
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the feet. >> google bob mercer racial views. there's a fast nation that the bannon has, it's the deplorables meme. his theory is he can get people elected and take people down. do republicans on the hill believe strange was going to lose anyway, and bannon took advantage of it? >> it's a case for all special elections. most republicans on the hill say it would be difficult for bannon to replicate that success, and beyond the fact he endorsed moore late already moore was already leading in the polls. >> right. >> and steve bannon is not
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saying he's going to go after the handful of republicans that could cause a problem for trump, and going after all of the republican incumbents. >> if bannon even had the power to at a whim take down members of the united states senate who are republicans and replace them with more moores, wouldn't it be like rand paul who prevents trump getting anything passed? >> the basic fact is that we don't know what they would looks like once they got into congress. they may grovate on the campaign trail, and what steve bannon has done really well that the gop establishment failed to do in 2016 and previously was to talk to people where they are, and that's on social media and use
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technology. president obama's campaign was good at that, and the gop has fallen way behind. steve bannon and the alt-right stepped in there and filled the void where there's a vacuum of the republicans reaching out to the people where they were online social media. so yes, he has the mercer money, and he said this is not about the money, this is -- you guys are going to take this war to the establishment. he's using that kind of language to empower people to make them feel like they have a voice. i don't agree with that, and i think bannon is a total danger to the republican party and the future of the party, but what he's doing are working. >> he said you may not like obama, but he said you have to have an authentic candidate.
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it looks diverse tease, and trying to expand the party, the party would try to broaden its tent out, and it could attract hispanic voters and younger voters, et cetera. this is moore, and this is a sound bite of him. i wonder if you think he's the template for what bannon wants in that party if that expands or shrinks it. >> we are seeing a stagnantcy. >> it's not just a swamp. it's a quick sand. that's what we see in washington. we don't have leadership. we have followership. to me it's a question of freedom or slavery.
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should i keep back my opinions in a time such as itself. we need to make america good again. >> that's an interesting way to put it. is judge roy moore a template for what the republican party will be going forward? >> the day judge moore was going to win with or without steve bannon. he had a core base of voters that were going to come out. republican primaries are not organic items to happen. they are very well organized. they are financed. it's a small group of people that nominate a republican to office. steve bannon's pick, the easiest choice and the easiest target to go after to make america great again, which is republican primaries against senators. anybody that hangs out and knows
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u.s. senators, they didn't get there because it was easy. they will not be easy to knock off. some of them have the ricketts and some of them have the kochs. the thing is some people in the party like myself who grew up and cut our teeth on the party, we are going to civil war with ourselves, and just replacing the ones don't give us the numbers to do it. i think steve will have a fun time. i don't think he will be that successful in building a national coalition because you don't do that at the top. ly lee atwater did it for redistricting, which changed the dividends. washington does have an ability to have to move you around if you want to get anything done. >> this is steve bannon
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threatening mitch mcconnell and saying he turned off the money for mitch mcconnell. this is bannon. >> let me tell you about mitch mcconnell. mitch -- >> hold on one second. >> who is going to be brutus to your julius caesar. yeah, mitch, the donors are not happy. they have all left you. we cut your oxygen off, mitch. okay? >> is mitch mcconnell likely to take that threat seriously? >> absolutely not. mitch mcconnell, he's a serious guy. what steve's missing is we have a supreme court justice on our side that changes us for 40 years, courtesy mitch mcconnell. we have other judges coming through, courtesy of mitch mcconnell. most people don't know who mitch mcconnell is. they didn't know who nancy pelosi was so the average voter that he's raoeuing to get
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doesn't get all the inside baseball. certainly talk radio and tv gets it, but it's a lot of bluster. steve is talented, don't get me wrong, and the republican party will circle the wagons and pull our guns out and shoot each other, and bannon is going to have other people shooting. >> one more steve bannon cite. this is what he had to say about the fourth turning. >> this is the have had the rev the civil war, and we have had the great depression and world war ii, and this is the fourth. we're going to be one thing and it's going to take, five, ten, 15, 20, 25 years to go through this. we're going to be one thing the or other on the other side of it. we're either going to be the country that was bequeath to previous generations and to you,
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or we're going to be something else. >> people could google the fourth turning. >> he has a plook like that. >> are republicans afraid of mitch mcconnell? >> no. >> he admitted he was killing the affordable care act. are republicans concerned he admitted that trump purposely tanked the exchanges or is trying to tank the exchanges? >> no, republicans are not concerned with anything coming out of steve bannon's mouth right now. he has grandiose views of what he could do, but you have moderate republicans on capitol hill that will stand up and find their courage. >> he has a meme. that's the end of the segment.
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thank you. coming up in our next hour, harv harvey weinstein gets expelled from the academy, and donald trump keeps going after the nfl players. more on "am joy." it's easy to think that all money managers are pretty much the same. but while some push high commission investment products, fisher investments avoids them. some advisers have hidden and layered fees. fisher investments never does. and while some advisers are happy to earn commissions from you whether you do well or not,
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calling on the party to pledge to impeach trump. in his letter, he called trump a clear and present danger to the
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republic and urged candidates to make your position clear so that democratic voters who are under constant attack by this administration know their elected representatives had the p patriotism and courage to stand up and take action. >> you are taking the maxine waters position, it should not be on the table but the campaign theme. if it's just trump must be impeached we will lose because we will not have offered something else to the voters. i never said impeaching trump,
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4-year i think the thing that he's done this week is he's gone after the health care of millions of americans by trying to week is he's gone after the health care of millions of americans by fryitr to blow up the affordable health care act. you have him deliberately trying to deny affordable health care to millions of americans with a stroke of a pen absolutely knowing he's doing it. there is an absolute attack on the health of americans. >> you've given a lot of money to democrats over the years. a big donor. we did a ranking of all the top donors and you are right up there at the top in terms of the money that you have given. you can see it right there. we've been talking about harvey weinstein. he's given a million. you've given $90 million.
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are you saying that you will withhold donations from any democrat who does not essentially pledge to push for the impeachment of donald trump if they are elected? >> it's not really donate to candidates. what we do is we do grassroots organizing at the local level with partners. so what we're really talking about doing is going into communities with community organizations and either going door to door or phone banking or basically trying to get american citizens to talk to each other about the biggest issues of the day. that's what we've spent our money on is to try and get old-fashioned democracy back into our political system because we believe the broadest democracy is the just and fairest democracy. >> one way you could advance this idea, the ideas that you believe in and the ideas that you put your money toward is to
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become a candidate yourself. there's some rumor that you are interested in running against dianne feinstein. are you planning or thinking about running against her? >> i haven't ruled it out. what i've said is i want to do whatever i can do that will have the most positive impact. i would like to know what senator feinstein believes about impeachment, whether we can survive without getting rid of this president. that's what we're asking every democratic office holder. we need to stand up and take action about what we can do because the fact of the matter is we are seeing this president go after the health and safety of americans. every single day in a myriad of ways. >> you are there in san francisco. nancy pelosi is the congress -- is the most senior member of the congress on the democratic side. she represents the san francisco area. do you believe if she became speaker of the house she would push to impeach donald trump? >> first of all, i have a ton of respect and affection for nancy pelosi.
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i really do. i don't pretend to speak for her. i know that nancy would take an aggressive line towards donald trump and i think that it's absolutely essential that democrats stand up. this is about going to the american people right now and explaining to them what's at stake, how much of a threat we're under from this map and his companions and what we can do about it. that is absolutely important for the american people to know right now that democrats will stand up and do something, not just passively watch him destroy himself and us with him. >> last question, if donald trump is not impeached and survives the office to run in 2020 again, would you run against him? >> i'd say the same thing about that. first of all, i would do anything i can to try and make sure that our country can go forward to a better, healthier, more prosperous future and he is absolutely not only trying to
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prevent that, he's doing none of the good things so i would do anything i could to prevent this man from getting re-elected. >> tom steyer making it very plain. thank you very much. >> thank you for having me. up next, the latest on the new allegations against harvey weinstein. stay with us. well thank you. free at at, even if you're not a customer.
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because the things you love the most can stink. and plug in febreze to keep your whole room fresh for up to 45 days. breathe happy with febreze. welcome back to "a.m. joy." harvey weinstein has been kicked out of the motion pictures arts and sciences. a vote from the academy's board of governor expelled him yesterday. the decision came the same day as yet another bombshell report. this one from the washington post which uncovered three new allegations against weinstein of sexual or physical assault. and what the post claims was at abuse. there are decades of sexual harassment of sexual allegations against weinstein. in ronan farrell's report in the
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new yorker that revealed allegations from 13 women of not only harassment but rape and sexual assault. weinstein spokesman told "the new yorker," quote, any allegations of nonconsensual sex are unequivocally declined. this seemed to have opened the flood gates as more women including some of the biggest names in hollywood have broken their silence about their own allegations of unwanted sexual advances from weinstein. the allegations about weinstein's behaviors cover three decades and as noted by pharaoh in his report has been an open secret to many in hollywood and beyond. that's left those of us in the media to do some soul seeking. joining me now are "time magazine" contributor jane newton small, jonathan altar and gabe sherman. i want to come to you on this first, jay. you mentioned while we were in the break it's not just the academy. he's also out of bafta.
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>> it was literally the day after the report came out bafta wasted no time. they ejected him almost immediately. the academy gathered its time, bafta was like, no, we're done. >> scotland yard is investigating further claims of section uxual assault, this time u.k. the washington post story which is the latest after ronan's harrowing story and "the new york times" got to the story first, you're talking about somebody's pattern of neediness, begging, a saugs, gross behavior goes back so long. why didn't it come out, we were talking about before the break about the interrelationship there is between what we do in the news media and what hollywood does. you have a best selling book, journalist, suddenly you have a movie deal or tv deal. it is all very interrelated as
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is the political world. is it the fact that it's all one interrelated world that people all sort of excuse a powerful man that's moving within all of these circles even if they know in the back of their mind, yeah, he's a creep. >> partly that's right. right now those relationships are beginning to break. that's really interesting, right? you have time and cnn used to be partnered with warner brothers. fox news used to be with fox search light. abc and disney are still together. there are still some relationships that exist. you'll see -- >> we're nfc universal. >> yeah, exactly. you see that every year when you have the white house correspondent's dinner. you have all of these stars and movie executives that come in for that dinner. it's this universe that is very much unified front of you would think nonfiction, the news, fiction, stories. all these different kind of creativity in many ways. that's what's to some degrees has been celebrated or begun to
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be celebrated at that dinner. i would argue for me, this is part of what i wrote about in my book, was for every chapter in hollywood, you -- >> the name of the book. >> "broad influence." you saw this with fox news. when women reach a critical mass in any industry whether it's news -- when i started out covering the white house, i was 22 years old, there was not a critical mass of women covering the white house. when you begin to reach a critical mass in that summer between 20 and 30% of any institution, it gets where women are like, no longer am i going to tolerate this. 26% of producers are women. women are demanding equal pay like patricia arquette and jennifer lawrence. >> the thing is, gabe, fox has brought up -- that brings me to you, gabe. the same thing happened with
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roger ales. you have somebody that's a powerful man in the media. >> yeah. >> in this interrelated world at fox who's getting away with this gross behavior as is bill o'reilly even after the infamous louffa tape with bill o'reilly. he's getting away with it even after settlements. what's the tipping point of a roger ales, bill o'reilly, when is the tipping point when fellow members can grab on to a story and report it? >> with ales and weinstein, my book came out in 2014. i included the first on the record allegations of sexual harassment on ales from women. janet maslen rejected those. roger ales was still the king of the republican party.
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but by 2016, two years later when gretchen carlson had filed her lawsuit, ales leadership had waned. there was a predicate in place to take those allegations seriously. i see that in the same way with harvey weinstein. his company, the weinstein company, has been financially struggling. we saw a remarkable interview this week with his brother bob weinstein in which he's announced his brother and wanted him out of the company. so i think we saw a case, again, that harvey's call came at a time when his power and grip was starting to decline. unfortunately i wish that wasn't the case where women's allegations would be taken seriously, but it comes in a climate when the accused perpetrator is no longer at the top of the mountain. >> i think that's true of bill cosby as well, you have allegations of decades of abuse
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of drugging women going all the way back to the 1960s. when he's cosby in a position that he's the king of primetime tv, no one necessarily feels brave enough to come out and journalists -- i think about the fact that a cosby biography was written by a journalist that omitted any even hint of sexual impropriety. that happened, right? this was a seasoned, mart journalist. you had journalists coming out regretting things they were hearing and didn't pursue. this is courtney love. there were women, jonathan altar, who were in a way trying to get this out in the same han anybody burris got this out. this is courtney love. she's on the red carpet. 2005 at a comedy central event. take a look at what she said. >> do you have any advice for young girls moving to hollywood?
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>> if harvey weinstein is at a party -- >> that's remarkable. courtney love sent out a tweet. although i wasn't one of his victims, i was eternally banned by caa for speaking out against harvey weinstein and she put the hashtag #rape. you work in the tv entertainment side. you with amazon. you have book and movie deals and tv deals. if something like that was said by courtney love on a red carpet and no journalist thought that newsworthy then to pursue, are journalists in a sense clouded by the relationship then as it makes them less likely to say, oh, that's a strange thing, let me dig into it. do you ever feel like that interrelationship makes the joushlism more difficult? >> first of all, i haven't had any relations with harvey weinstein of any kind, but before i address your question, joy, when courtney said i might
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get liabled, what she meant is i might get sued. there might be a lawsuit against her. and both gabe and i were on the receiving end of threats from roger ales that he would sue us, very threatening words. i think people who are not in journalism or book writers don't quite get immediately how threatening it is when really high powered lawyers come at you when you're trying to make inquiries. kim masters had this problem recently and wrote a piece about it today. so it's not just that, you know, journalists want to be buddy buddy with the executives -- the studio executives so is that their screen play gets turned into a movie, it's partly that they're on the receiving end of real threats, legal threats if they move forward with their reporting. so it's important for people on the outside not to judge news organizations too harely about
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wheth -- harshly about whether they've pursued things. >> in the case of harvey, we know that news organizations did look into these allegations very seriously going back years, and i think one of the challenges is that when you have men in such positions of power, whether it's weinstein or ales, women rightfully and understandably are terrified to go on the record. it is very difficult as a reporter, i would not make sexual harassment -- i would not air and publish sexual harassment allegations unless the women were speaking out with their names and advocates. if women are terrified to come forward because of the threats and intimidation that people like ales and weinstein enacted, that's a very difficult thing for journalists. we don't have subpoena power.
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we don't have the power of the state and the law enforcement like say a prosecutor would so we're at the mercy of our sources. i think that is partly why some of these stories did not come out until now when women bravely were able to get this. >> you mentioned kim masters who was trying to get this story in the '90s. she apparently approached harvey weinstein and said, have you heard about me? she said, i heard you rape women. she couldn't get the story because she didn't have the on the record quote. before i come back to jay, let's listen to ronan farrow. he talked about that issue. >> i will say over many years many news organizations have circled this story and faced a great deal of pressure in doing so, and there are now reports emerging publicly about the kinds of pressure news organizations face and that is real. in the course of this reporting
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i was threatened with a lawsuit personally by mr. weinstein. >> lloyd grove said the same thing. donald trump, by the way, who's had serial accusations of similar to harvey weinstein, unwanted kissing, unwanted groping, has threatened he would sue a dozen women. he would sue them into poverty if they tried to come forward. people are afraid. >> it's also hard to remember news rooms have declining budgets. we don't have a lot of the legal protection we used to have. a lot of us aren't owned by billionaires. when you're taken on by a billionaire, the whole koeg began case. >> peter backed this case. >> he backed this defamation suit on behalf of hulk hogan and bankrupted gaucker. that was a really scary moment for a lot of people watching the first amendment, watching sort of news because it said to any
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billionaire in the world, if you want to just quash any bad news about yourself, you can go ahead and sue that news agency into bankruptcy and make it all just disappear. i think there is this emboldened sense by billionaires and the rich and powerful that they're going to get away with this, they can afford to do this. >> pay outsetlement after settlement after settlement. for the viewers, it will sound like excuses. you guys are afraid of getting sued. boo-hoo. these are predators that have been operating for decades? i'll let everybody answer that question. what do you say, okay, yes, you face a lot of pressure. okay, yes, you need something corroborating, maybe a settlement. yes, they can sue you. boo hoo. whether it's trump, ales, harvey
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weinstein, bill cosby? i'll start with you, jane? >> look, this is -- you have to begin to change the culture of an institution, right? hollywood is a place where you have 63% of screen time for women is showing them romantically involved, having them talk about relationships where 52% of screen time for men shows them working, serious, doing hard jobs. you have to attack that kind of culture. she has a great institution where she's gone to ask if you're going to have a sponge at the bottom of the sea, why isn't it a woman? >> when it is a woman then everybody gets mad on the alt right. what about people who say all of these excuses for journalists letting this happen? >> that's right. we need to do better. the same way with the priests who were abusing children.
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you don't have that kind of abuse in the catholic church anymore. one of the reasons why is people have used the internet to not feel alone when they have been abused so people need to get together online and tell the stories not just in hollywood crushing these stories of assault. when that happens, the press will get interested. >> gabe, who needs to be less cautious. is it women who are victimized, powerful, who know their sisters coming into the industry are being victimized or is it news organizations that need to become more aggressive? >> joy, i feel that the people that are really incumbent, take the lions share of the responsibility are the corporate boards, the men. the weinstein company board was aware of this behavior years ago and took no action. it's the ceos and many ceos are
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men who are relying and happy to earn the profits of people like harvey weinstein or ales and do nothing about it. that's where the power is and that's where the culture will change. >> this is a great conversation. i thank you for engaging in it with me. jane newton small and john. more "am joy" after the break. i love you, basement guest bathroom.
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just not going to dig any phi the question. i call the president mr. president. he and i have a very frank and open and candid relationship. >> he could say, i didn't call him a moron. just saying. rex tillerson made the sunday rounds this morning. had to address the reports that he did call his boss a moron. joining me is e.j. dionne, ben and gabriel sherman and maria. i'm going to you first on this. wouldn't it have been simpler for rex tillerson to say, of course, i didn't call rex tillerson a moron. >> you're making an assumption, okay, you guys, we're on the air. i think nobody expects that that's not going to happen. what i'm more concerned about is
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it's not that -- we know now the words were used in regards to the president. everybody is trying to understand how we handle that within the context of whatever is happening internationally and the fact that we -- what is the strategy of the trump administration regarding foreign policy. we still don't know. we can talk all we want about the insults. the truth is, what exactly is going on behind the scenes that is leading to some kind of policy regardless of the in fighting. that's where i'm like, what is the policy? it's not nationalism. nationalism, america first would mean you're not instigating and looking for places to engage. >> yeah. >> it's quite confusing. we don't know who is in charge. >> america first would mean you were helping puerto rico and the virgin islands. >> the president sees him in the
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mirror every morning. >> rex tillerson was asked about the iran deal which donald trump seems to think he wants to get out of. it wasn't clear from tillerson's answer what they believe. this is rex tillerson on cnn this morning. >> it sounds like you agree with that as well, that you would not want congress to immediately impose sanctions that end this deal? >> i do agree with that. i think the president does as well, that's why he took the decision that he took. let's see if we cannot address the flaws in the agreement by staying in the agreement. working with the other signatories. >> i don't know how he heard that in donald trump saying the agreement is a terrible agreement, he wants out of it. >> if he called him a moron because he would deny it if he didn't. i think what's come out in the reporting is people didn't want him to do anything like this. this weird statement of his is a compromise where he doesn't just blow up the agreement instantly. >> residential right.
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>> he's trying to leave something open and the members of his inner circle who are seen as the protectors of us against donald trump's impulses are trying to interpret this as generously as they can to leaving an opening to keeping the agreement in place. there is something odd about a country in a situation where the leading figures in the government feel a need to protect the country from the president they're serving. >> yeah. >> and the question is, how long can this go on? at what point do they decide that we can't do this anymore or this is not functional? i think they're going to twist themselves into pretzels. >> you hear him say a thing, see a tweet and then you have members of his administration
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come out and try to re-interpret that so that you didn't hear the thing that terrified you. h.r. mcmaster talking about this little rocket man business that donald trump -- juvenile thing he has of calling him rocket man. >> do you and the president proceed from a shared view that the public d. >> dennis: -- denigration of a head of state, that that could have positive strategic impact. >> i think what the real danger is in terms of communicating with kim jong-un is that he doesn't understand how serious we are about his behavior and the behavior of the regime. the president has been very clear on that. >> it's -- so if you just look at iran and north korea, so here's what the president has done world leaders wonder if he
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has a doctrine. he puts north korea and tehran at the top of the enemies list. they probably really like to feel that important, but even more importantly, he's put himself in a position where if congress doesn't do what he wants them to do, if china and russia don't do what he wants them to do, he doesn't have a choice but to nix it. he is harming the american public by doing that. >> yeah. >> i don't think anyone questions do the sunset deals need to be killed? yes. does iran's revolutionary guard need to be put on a terrorist list? absolutely, yes. but this is not the way to do it. his people have to go out and find a way to sort of erase the craziness that comes out of donald trump's mouth and the rest of the country is living in terror. are we going to world war 3 like bob corker thinks we are going
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to. >> one thing is they will break a record on the questions that this administration has to evade. you saw that with tillerson and mcmaster. they just try to shift the subject to more congenial grounds. >> more conventional grounds. i want to play lindsey graham on that that republicans are participating in, where they're trying to tell you the reality that you see that seems insane isn't real. there's really a normal stable presidency. there's a jeb bush style presidency taking place, you're being distracted by tweets. this is lindsey graham talking about golf with donald trump earlier. >> at the end of the day i played golf with the president yesterday. he is not a man under siege. he beat me again like a donald trump. he's hell bent on getting a better deal. he promised to tear it up. he's decided not to tear it up, he's promised to decertify. he's going to get a better deal
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before it's too late. >> to be point blunt, are members of the united states and congress lying to the people when they try to present donald trump on completely stable when on background many of them are telling reporters he's unraveling? >> joy, this week we saw bob corker's remarkable interview with the new yorker saying what people have been telling reporters like myself privately. i wrote a piece for vanity fair that got a lot of attention because it shows the lengths to which donald trump's inner circle has grown concerned about his erratic and declining emotional state and his impulsive outbursts. he reportedly said to keith schiller, i hate everyone in the white house. he's acting under siege. people are trying to do damage control. we saw general john kelly give a
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rare on camera briefing trying to knock back reports of his combative relationship with the president. so they can do that. that is a form of political communication, but as you mentioned, joy, we all can see it. we see the tweets. we see the discord. we see the chaos. that is not a substitute. these rosie pictures coming from people like lindsey graham are not a substitute for the reality that is visible. >> maria, last word. at what point does -- is it required essentially that journalists begin to pursue and question whether or not the president is stable because we're being told by people like lindsey graham that he's perfectly stable but all of the reporting that we're getting, including from gabe and others, is the opposite. there are lives at stake whether it's more or devastation from hurricanes. lives are at stake. >> right. i think that this is a moment for american 1y0ur7journalists start -- not to start. our biggest problem is we haven't been be able to collectively say let's put a
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pause on what's happening in the white house and have a conversation about what's the big picture for us? what's the big arc of the story and how do we understand to not al this to be normal. it's hard to say, this is completely insane and we have to start reporting on whether or not the mental state of the president is stable but, in fact, i mean, i just feel -- i mean, i'm still not over charlottesville. the other image that i still can't get out of my head right now is the image of the paper towels being thrown at hungry people in puerto rico. it all continues to be shocking. but i'm just concerned that we need to have this bigger arc of what is the end game? >> yeah. >> to be clear, it's not going to stop any time soon. >> yeah. >> that's what i'm talking about, the big arc and asking that question that you're saying, but at the same time there's a long play here. it's not going to end any time
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soon. >> i wonder if journalists need to be making the republicans to go on the record. e.j.dionne, maria, gabe sherman, thank you all. >> thank you. coming up, with so much going on in the country, from storms to wildfires to looming health crises of his own making, donald trump can't stop talking about football. that's next. ♪ ♪ you nervous? ♪ ♪
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at stanford health care, we can now repair complex aortic aneurysms without invasive surgery. if we can do that, imagine what we can do for varicose veins. and if we can precisely treat eye cancer with minimal damage to the rest of the eye, imagine what we can do for glaucoma, even cataracts. if we can use dna to diagnose the rarest of diseases, imagine what we can do for the conditions that affect us all. imagine what we can do for you. before watching a football game, you want to see those players be proud of their country, respect our country, respect our flag and respect our national anthem, and we think they will. we certainly hope they will. >> donald trump adding more fuel to the national anthem debate,
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this time in his weekly address. just five days after vice president mike pence staged a pre-planned walkout during a colts/49ers game when the players you see here took a knee, a stunt that cost you, the taxpayer, approximately $240,000 according to an estimate by slate. despite that, they're willing to spend that money to make their point with their antics and attempts by the right to make protests about patriotism, the players who were taking a knee seem to be getting their message across. 57% of americans believe the fact that the nfl players are protesting up from 48% who understood that last month. joining me is dave ziron, chris coolly and a former linebacker and civil rights attorney. dave, it's been too long. one of the things about the
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spectacle, the president of the united states lecturing americans, there's also this threat that he seems to be implying. you know, i can recommend your tax exemptions get taken away, nfl. you will order these players to stand. >> right. >> do you see in your journalism looking a the this, do you see the nfl passing a law, a rule, putting it in the rule books that the players must stand for the anthem specifically to apiece donald trump. >> they released a joint statement by roger goodell and the players association, they will not do that. they'll sit down with the nfl pa and the leading activists and the most outspoken people who have been doing this to raise awareness and figure out a way that i think it's trying to let
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players do that. he wants to let them be robbed of their dignity. there were no players taking a knee and then jerry jones decides to treat his team like a plantation, that's michael willbon's words, an then the response by the players. now it's not about racial inequality. it's am i a human being or not. donald trump, i think he's done it several times in this anthem argument, has overplayed his hand because when he put out a statement saying that roger goodell, like good job, roger goodell, changing the rules to require players to stand for the anthem, that hasn't happened yet. that triggered the joint statement by the nfl and the nfl pa. i think there are some owners like jerry jones looking at this from a perspective of i want to break the players. for others, they're looking at this to play out. >> the nfl wouldn't be much without all of these stars.
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75% or more are black. collin there is, i believe, a supreme court ruling that states that schools can't force students to stand for the pledge of allegiance, right? that that actually violates our first amendment rights. if they wanted to pass a rule making, they could. they changed the rules in 2009 to make them be out on the field on display. we're not north korea. the government can't order you to stand through the national anthem at all. at what point given the scope of the nfl contract are players' first amendment rights being violated when the president of the united states is essentially do a public display of patriotism in a country that doesn't require that. >> i think the rights are being violated. i think in this country, as you said, we don't require certain displays of patriotism. we want to inspire that in each other. we want to make sure that people
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in this country feel so strongly about the country that they want to stand up and put their hands over their heart. i think the players are doing a tremendous service by raising some of the issues. we as americans should agree about their right4w you know who likes to be
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this is michael rooker and this is joy. what's it like doing an interview with michael rooker? >> it's the greatest experience of my entire life. >> week in, week out, here at "a.m. joy" we spend our time mired in the latest political
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turmoil. every once in a while we like to get out and have a little fun. that's what i did last week when i went to the epic new york comic-con. hi, guys, i'm joy reed, i'm here at new york comic-con. >> i can get the job done. >> let's talk about phillip k. dick's "electric dreams," an interesting time to be doing this kind of project. >> what it means to be human, to have empathy and compassion in these times of very little of that. it's very timely. >> do you think that comics can save our sanity? >> i think probably comics have saved a lot of people's sanity over the years.
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>> what's the secret of your power? >> you have to whistle. >> do blue people have more fun? >> always, blue is the best color in the world. >> it is an interesting time to be doing a show that imagines a scary alternate reality, is it weird to be doing that when the present is also scary? >> we're inclined to wonder about alternate realities at the moment. there was a tipping tonight a while ago when the world could have split one way or the other, and it split one way. >> rage is becoming mundane. i think so. there seems to be a new outrage every day and as human beings, you become more numb to it as it goes on. >> it used to be, ha ha ha, now it's kind of sad. >> does your gun shoot? >> no, it shoots ink.
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>> even better! is it possible to even depict outrage anymore when people every day, right now feel a little chaotic. >> i guess the frightening thing is there's always something worse and something crazier. the answer is yes. >> i know some people who grow a garden and it makes it better. yes, dude, literally. that's the definition of making the world a better place. >> that was fun. we'll be posting my full length interviews with sir davos and the fabulous stars i interviewed on i want to give a big shoutout to my fabulous crew who made this all possible, xander, zoe, robert, and our own time lord with the purple hair, lore enin a. next, more "a.m. joy." how do we say that this fall,
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that does it for me. "a.m. joy" will be back next saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern. the latest news from my colleague, alex witt. >> my superior hero friend at comic-con, thank you. i'm alex witt at msnbc headquarters in new york. here is what's happening. >> i'm not going to deal with that kind of petty stuff. i mean, this is a town that seems to relish gossip, rumor, innuendo, and they feed on it, they feed on one another in a very destructive way. i don't work that way, i don't deal that way. i'm not going to dignify the question. >> what is the question and why does secretary tillerson refuse to answer it? a congressman who has been leading the call for president trump's impeachment joins me to talk about what's stalled his efforts, and what happens after 2018. new


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