tv MSNBC Live With Katy Tur MSNBC December 1, 2017 11:00am-12:00pm PST
these conversations were occurring? >> we don't -- as many time as you ask, we don't share who we'd like to talk to or when we'd like to talk to folks. again, i think i have a graeat deal of conversation in mueller and i'm anxious to hear general flynn's full explanation of his contacts with the russians. clearly he was willing to lie about those contacts and lie to the fbi and i'm anxious slus to he to hear a fuller explanation. >> do you have any concern about potential for the have not -- >> again, i'm not going will -- i'm not going to share -- our investigation is ongoing. and i think what we owe the american people is all the facts. and we still have more folks to talk to and, you know, we want to get the job be done, but we want to be complete. and again, one more that we've seen some, and obviously
including the president, who said hey, you know, nothing here. let's try to shut this down. i don't think there is anybody that is following this story now in light of at admission of guilt coming from a senior trump official this time the national security adviser that we don't owe the american public to follow through on this investigation until we get all the facts on out. >> didpreviously tell you about the conversation? >> the focus is doing the investigation in a way that we get access to all the witnesses. we are going to do that p. and again, i was proud of cof w the chairman said in the "new york times" story that he acknowledged that he needed to stay away from the white house. but what is the real issue here is you have this repeated pattern of the president of the united states who is trying
desperately to stop this investigation. cost jim comey his job because he wouldn't stop the investigation. he intervened with senators. he intervened with her oother intelligence officials. i think the american people and a lot of us ask why is he so desperate to have this investigation stopped particularly as we see more and are more people either plead guilty or come forward under indictments. >> senator mark warner of virginia, the ranking democrat on the senate's i think tell against committee, the latest reaction coming in after today special prosecutor bob mueller made his most significant move yet in the probe into the campaign's alleged ties to russia. in a move that has shaken washington, you just saw former national security adviser michael flynn going into the courthouse where he pleaded guilty to a charge that he made
false statements to the fbi. court documents released this morning reveal flynn lied when he told agents that in his conversations with russian ambassador sergey kislyak, he did not discuss u.s. sanctions and did not ask the russian official to delay a vote on a u.n. council resolution. perhaps even more significant, flynn says he was directed by an unnamed signor official with the presidential transition team and a very senior transition official in all of his dealings with the russian ambassador. so this is the key question. who was that? jared kushner? the vice president? could it have been president trump himself? we just don't know right now. but we do know this, a single charge against the retired army general is the first in the mueller investigation to reach all the way into the trump white house. >> this is potentially really the biggest day so far obviously in the investigation. >> the news that this brings the
investigation inside the white house. >> frightening thing is this was the national security adviser of the united states and key foreign policy adviser to the president. >> how many different times did he go to james comey to try to say layoff flynn? this is a huge blow to the president. no other way to put it. >> don't lie to the fbi or don't talk to them, the two simple lessons that can be inferred. this is clearly not the last shoe to fall. there is at least one other key member of the administration or the transition team who is very knowing ever what mike flynn did and the fact that mike flynn lied about it. >> the simplicity of this indictment is a signal that there is a lot more to come. well, it is virtually impossible to overstate the importance of this news and it comes as republicans are trying to pass that sweeping tax reform bill in a vote that could start any minute now. i want to dive right in with our large team of reporters and analysts. i want to start with pete
williams. ken dilanian and hans nichols at the white house. pete, let's start with a break down of what happened and the charges against michael flynn. >> on so it is now a guilty plea gin against michael flynn. and what he told the judge he did is that he lied to the fbi four days after president trump was elected when agents questioned him about contacts with the russians. that he denied what i'm about to describe, which he now says actually happened. the first contact is december 22 when egypt introduces a security council resolution against israel. according to the court documents, someone described as a very senior trump transition official down in mar-a-lago urged -- directed actually is the word it uses flynn to contact foreign government officials including the russians and urge them to either delay the vote or vote against it. and according to flynn, he did call the russian ambassador to the u.s. sergey kislyak and ask
him to do this. and according to the court documents, kislyak said no, we're not playing ball with you on this one. but then the next week president obama announces additional sanctions against the russians for their election meddling and according to the court documents, kislyak reaches out to flynn and says hey, what is up with this. flynn talks to transition officials described as senior transition officials, so it is apparently two separate people that flynn is talking to about his contacts with kislyak. and they agree that he should ask kislyak for the russians to go easy on their response so as to not to derail potential relations with russia during the time trump was about to become president and according to the court documents the russians agreed to do that and told kislyak to tell flynn that they were going to lay off and have a proportional response. and by the way, when that did happen on december 30th, the president tweeted he always thought putin was a smart man. so that is what they say he lied
about. and in terms of it does not identify who the trump people were, who the transition people were that directed flynn to have these conversations. but the implication from the documents is it is at least two separate people because they are described in different ways. >> so we'll dive into that key question in just a minute. but ken, i want to go to you because you've covered national security for 15 years now. you know michael flynn. the drama and the potential consequences when we see flynn going into and out of that courthouse, it was stunning today. as you see it, what is your headline, what are the implications of this plea? >> well, there are a number of significant implications. but as understand, one is the shocking down fall of might have been and he will flynn. he served his country in combat and revolutionizedhave been and he will flynn. he served his country in combat and revolutionized how they went after terrorists in iraq and afghanistan.
he was considered such a creative thinker that president obama a pointed him to be head of the defense intelligence agency. but he was ousted and that accepts him on a path where he became such an use lidea log th former friends didn't recognize him. and we remember everyone chanting locker up, so that is why it is so dramatic that he admitted that he lied to the fbi. of course the other significant implication here is as you were saying, what this shows, he has now told robert mueller that the trump administration was negotiating with russia before they took office in violation of american traditions if not american law. >> and we heard from flynn, right? he issued a statement today. >> he did. i do have that. here's what he said. after over 33 years of military service to our country, including nearly five years in combat away from my family, and then my decision to continue to serve the united states, it has
been extraordinarily painful to endure these many months of false accusations of treason and other outrageous acts. such false accusations are contrary to everything i've ever done and stood for. but i recognize that the actions i acknowledge in court today were wrong. and through my faith in god, i'm working to set things right. flichb continued, flynn continu guilty plea reflects a decision in the best interests of my family and my country. i accept full responsibility of my actions. >> there was never a white house briefing scheduled for today, so no comment on this by the press secretary nor any appearances by the president. so no chance of asking a question by any members of the white house press corps. so the one person we've heard from is the president's lawyer? >> we heard from ty cobb. it looked like there was an opportunity to ask president trump questions, there was a
pool spray where you can go in at the top of the meeting, he was meeting with the libyan prime minister. the meeting with the libyan prime minister continued. that did happen. they scrubbed the pool spray even though it was on the schedule, the pool was lined up, ready to go into the oval office. so there would have been a chance had that event taken place. the pool side of the event. to get his response. here's what ty cobb is saying, the president's lawyer. they are basically acknowledging that mike flynn has pled guilty, not a big deal. what they are stud yusly avoiding is perhaps the more important part of what we heard from flin todynn today and that that he is cooperating with bob mueller. today michael flynn and a former obama administration official, entered a guilty plea to a single count of making a false statement to the fbi. the false statement involved
mere -- fault statements which resulted in his resignation in february of this year. nothing about the guilty plea or the charge implicates anyone other than mr. flynn. that is true about the guilty flee. it is not true about his decision to cooperate and that is where there story will go next. >> and a tthe time line is important. we know that thanks to court documents on january 24, flynn made false statements to the fbi about his interactions with the russian government. january 26, sally yates warns the trump administration that flynn has been compromised. january 27th, there is that private one-on-one dinner, president trump appeared to ask fbi director james comey for his loyalty. according to comey, trump sa. january 30, trump fires yates for not defending his travel ban
about that and then february 13, flynn resigns following a report that the doj informed the white house that flynn was subject to blackmail. jump forward february 14th, there is an oval office meeting. trump appeals to comey saying i hone you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting flynn go. he is a good guy. i hope you can let this go according to his testimony. and then finally february 16, president trump holds a whousz n white house news conference and i want pete to play a little bit of that. >> did you direct mike flynn to discuss sanctions with the russian ambassador? >> no, i didn't. no, i didn't. >> and would you have fired him if the information hpt leaked out? >> i fired him because of what he said to mike pence. very simple. mike was doing his job. he was calling countries and his kou counterparts. so it would have been okay with me if he did it. i would have directed him to do it if i thought he wasn't doing it. i didn't direct him, but i would have because that is his job. and it came out that way and in
all fairness, i watched dr. charles krauthammer the other night saying he was doing his job. and i agreed with him. and since then, i've watched many other people say that. no, i didn't direct him, but i would have directed him if he didn't do it. okay? >> help us understand the significance of this time line. >> well, i think what the president is talking about is it would have been michael flynn's job to contact foreign officials as the national security adviser, but this all deals with the thing he pleaded guilty to today is before he was in the government, when he was in essence a private citizen. so the question is who in the transition directed him to talk to the russian ambassador twice about this. and a larger question is why did michael flynn lie about it if he didn't think what he was doing was wrong. why wouldn't he tell the fbi the truth about these contacts. and of course we don't know the
answer to that question. but it is quite clear that the detail that is in these court documents can only have come from michael flynn. so it's a sign that he has obviously cooperated with mueller's investigators and he has to continue to do so as part of the guilty plea today. if he doesn't, there are two problems. one is the government could seek a tough sentence if he continues to cooperate it is very likely even though this is a felony charge he has plooeaded guilty , it is doubtful that he will see any prison time if he continues to cooperate. secondly, if he doesn't cooperate, the government could bring other charges against him and there is a suggestion already in the court documents that the fbi believes he lid when he filled out a form in march about his work on behalf of the turkish government. so there is every incentive for him to continue to koochtcooper. >> so he hassen a an ax at his. let me bring in chris matthews. chris, for ten months now, at
least, donald trump has called this investigation into russia a hoax. he has said it is part of the fake news, that it has been made up by the media which he says is against him. what does he say today? we haven't heard from him. >> well, we've heard from him in kind of an echo way. lock him up, lock him up. the crowd out there, it was a small crowd, but progressive crowd on out in front of the court building yelling that at flynn, general flynn. and what they were really doing is rejoicing in the fact that they have been approach rigprov this point in fact almost to the goal line because this is the one witness the president most wanted not to testify. it is why he pushed out comey, why he initially tried to get comey to help him relieve the case against flynn. and then later spent all that time hugging flynn hoping he wouldn't testify against him. clearly he is the scene of the crime. he is the guy that talked to the
russians and lied about doing so. and like all the crime movies we've watched, the president kept going back to the scene of the crime. got to protect flynn because he will talk. and now he's talking. >> and we can't overstate the fact that other than arguably jared and iceyivanka, there was nobody closer to the president either in the late stages of the campaign, during the trusted hi. he was in critical meeting all the time. he was 3ri6 haveprivy to what w on in the white house and as well as the president's head. >> to make a watergate reference, he is john dean. >> liz holtzman said that today. >> she knows what she is talking about. clearly he is the guy who has all the information both on
collusion and also very much possible also on any kind of obstruction effort by the president. he knows everything he can remember and everything that he can remember hearing the president say is now part of his payment to stay out of jail and to keep his son out of jail. he is a frightening witness if you are the president of the united states right now. >> chris, can you stay with us? because i want to go to katy tur. usually this is he her hour, but she was obviously covering the campaign through all of this, the transition. she joins us by phone. the key question so many people are asking is, who could be the transition officials or as pete says at least two members of this team, close small inner circle of the president who could have been this person who was directing michael flynn? you know this story and this campaign as well as anybody. help us out here. >> reporter: yeah, i picked a great day to start my vacation. no, but there is a small circle
of people who michael fwlin could have called to talk about there's russian sanctions and also the u.n. resolution. there are two different conversations. and it could be two different people that he spoke with, two different senior transition officials. but remember, mike pence was running the transition at the time. initially it was chris christie, but he was pushed out. kushner was essentially the shadow leader of the transition. but there is also reince priebus who went in as chief of staff and was fired not even a year into his tenure there. steve bacnnon as well. jeff sessions. it could be any of them. people are digging around trying to find out who was at mar-a-lago at that time. and we can say with the russian
sanctions, it appears that it is not jared kushner because jared kushner was in hawaii at the time. it didn't necessarily mean that it couldn't be jared kushner for the previous conversation, the december 22 conversation about delaying u.n. security resolution or voting against it by russia. the key point here is that the white house has basically been saying that nik michael flynn w freelan freelancing. this shows that he was very much working under the guise of the transition. and remember, donald trump tweeted right afterwards, right after the u.s. iimposed new ansn russia and russia decided not to respond in kind, donald trump tweeted it was a smart move by russia. so the question is, how much does donald trump know about these conversations. was he informed or is it just coincidence. and also, this testimony by michael flynn or this admission in these court documents shows that the white house once again is not being transparent.
so it frankly calls the credit and credit and of tbility of the en going back for what was happening between the donald trump campaign and russia before the election. >> katy tur, i thank you very much. this is your vacation. good luck with that. we appreciate it. let me go back to chris matthews because, chris, you have been in washington much of your adult life either in the halls or covering it. how does this feel to you? you talked about the watergate reference and the john dean and there are people pushing back on these comparisons. but this today, i got to telling, just watching michael flynn walk into that courthouse and walk out a convicted felon, what are you thinking right now? >> i always make movie references because that is how i think and i was thinking about how alfred hitchcock always
story boarded his movies very explicitly and then just rolled it out. he had it all in his head. and this looks like mueller is like that. i get the feeling he had every day listed when he was going to do each one of these steps leading up to this magical end of the month. everything about mueller is systemic like hitchcock. every scene ready, prepared, and sequenced to lead to the final downfall perhaps of his number one target. >> i'm supposed to let you go, but i have to ask you this, obviously this goes back all to the firing of james comey and bob mueller would not be investigation debating if not for that. here is what he tweeted. but justice rolls it on like waters and righteousness like an every flowing stream. biblical amos 5:24. james comey feeling vindy indicated? >> sure. and i was dr. mar titin luther g
because it is so old testment. i was thinking that he finally gets his deliverance. he had been fired because he wouldn't end the investigation, he wouldn't layoff on michael flynn. and here is michael flynn agreeing to testify, becoming in this case the witness for the prosecution. michael flynn will be the most important american besides donald trump in the next several months. because he may well bring down donald trump. this is great drama, great politics. and to answer your question, today is and h historic day in president-elect trump preside trump presidency.matthews, i ca to watch you tonight at 7:00. and the nuns would appreciate the biblical reference and your knowledge of it. flynn is maybe the prominent member of trump's inner circle to face charge apes in connecti connection with robert mueller's
investigation. so we'll talk about the potential ramifications for the white house further. (♪) (♪) it all starts with a wish. the lincoln wish list event is here. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down and a complementary first months payment. aleve direct therapy. the only remote controlled tens device that's drug free, wire free for deep penetrating lower back pain relief. and now get aleve direct therapy with $10 off at your local target.
. robert mueller's investigation has been an ever present shadow over president trump's first year in office. but today's guilty plea from michael flynn brought the special prosecutor's probe inside the white house and trump's inner circle. i want to bring in a former assistant watergate special prosecutor and also former general counsel of the army.
t also with me, former assistant director at the fbi. jill, you know how these investigations work. what is your headline from today and what are you looking for next? >> i think the first thing i'm looking for is who are the two transition team higher ups that are named in this information. and what do they know and who will they give us once they are flipped. that is the first thing. the second question i have is, is this the moment that the republicans in congress and that trump's voters will finally see that the fake news is not coming from the mainstream media, it's coming from fox and from the white house? when it they say that this investigation is going to be over by the end of the year, that is not true. we're getting into much higher up as to who will beimplicated.
>> if you want to out of prison, don't lie to the fbi. that is a basic take. and do you agree? this is the start, that the buck clearly doesn't stop here with michael flynn or they would not be making a deal with him? >> well, we're getting a glimpse in the court documents of what collusion starts to look like. and that people keep throwing that word around, but these court documents talk about full engagement and knowledge of the transition team, the campaign team and michael flynn engaging with the russians to undermine u.s. government position and try to posture the russians toward another posture. so what does that mean? it means that mueller has sent a message today in selecting that specific charge, lying to the fbi, among all the charges that flynn could be exposed to, he chose that one. why? it sends a message to everybody
else that is a party to this the worst thing that you can do is lie to us. secondly, the lightness of the charge and what i'm looking for next is that recommendation for sentencing. we see a light charge and if we see it followed by a very light sentence recommendation, we're looking at a very cooperative michael flynn and that means he is cooperating against very senior officials. >> congressman adam schiff who is a former prosecutor, he was on with andrea mitchell today and he said he is looking at what is missing. what is not in these documents. i want to play that for you. >> this is clearly not the last shoe to fall. he hasn't exposed which transition official or officials in the papadopoulous plea there was also a lot of information left out. that tells me that there is further investigation of those other individuals going on and in the case of both papadopoulous and now flynn, they are providing real value in
terms of information. >> so jill, does this tell us that mueller now has a clear path or he has a clear path to the next step and who knows where that will lead him? >> i think adam schiff is often right and he is in this case for sure. and i think mueller is doing this one step at a time, building a case in the proper way one puzzle piece at a time. and that i am sure that the next step will be who are those two people or more, it could be more than two, but who are the transition officials and what do they know and who will they inch pli indicat implicate. so, yes, this is a historic day and could be the beginning of the end. i think the comparison to john dean is very apt because he was the person who had the inside knowledge and who really opened the doors to what was really going on in the white house. and that could be what is happening here with flynn. >> and famously said cancer on the presidency. i wish we had more time.
jill, frank, thanks to both of you. i want to bring in ken vogel and eli stokeles. eli, what does this all likely mean for the white house? >> well, that remains to be seen, but i can tell you today they are not in a good place. will there are a lot of folks who privately will let on that they are a little rattled by this. >> a little or a lot? >> probability a loly a lot. we don't know where this is going, but with flynn cooperating as a lot of people have pointed out already, there are only so many people above mike flynn who could be of value to roberts mueller and they know that in this white house. you saw as we talked about earlier, they canceled the pool spray. we've seen this president in trouble before still come out, talk to the cameras, believe that he can kind of talk mts out of this. get through it. deflect blame. blame the media, blame the democrats. call the whole thing a witch hupts.
we haven't seen that yet today. it is unclear if he will make an appearance at this white house christmas party this afternoon. but inside, they are nervous. and part of that is because there is not finished yet. hope hicks who has been as close to this president from the start of this campaign up until today never very far from the president's side, she has yet to go talk to bob mueller and she is going to do so as frank pointed out knowing that mueller probably knows what he needs to know already and that there will be severe consequences should she not tell the truth. >> and the plea comes hours after the "new york times" published a report that over the summer president trump asked several senate republicans to end the senate intelligence committee's investigation into russian interference in the election. how could it all tie together if the a all? >> well, i think what you're saying in the flynn information and the guilty plea and his cooperation is the building of a case that if nothing he alelse potentially yield an obstruction of justice case. it is not illegal for a member
of the transition team or even a presidential candidate to reach out to a foreign government. it would potentially be illegal if they were doing so in a way that underminor undercut current u.s. foreign policy that which at the time was being dictated by then president obama. but i think really your allusion to and eli's allusion to mueller knowing what he needs to know before bringing in some of these people, that is what is ski here, that is what flynn gives him. and we already know that what flynn admitted to in his plea in some ways conflicts with or what was in the information conflicts with the line that the white house was giving at the time in the transition team, which was that there was no direction and there was no sort of officially sanctioned back channel communication about these sanctions. flynn is essentially admitting that is not the case. of course it's not a crime for any of these folks to lie to the press as much as we would like
to be, so it's not enough that what they said at the time to the press conflicts with what mike flynn is admitting to. but it does suggest that they might be building a case about misleadi leed leading statement obstruction of justice in other folks' comments and responses to muell mueller. >> eli, the quiet out of the west wing, the fact that we have not heard from the president, it does make you wonder who is he with right now, who is he listening to, will he stay away frankly from twitter. >> yeah, he never stays away from twitter for too long. but there have been a lot of reports about the tension and the president sort of nervousness in trusting ty cobb saying that it will all be okay, it will be over by the end of the kreerd. t year. the president gets riled up when certain people tell him that he shouldn't listen to cobb, that other on folks are skeptical -- >> to the point of firing mueller or thinking about pardons? >> well, we've been asking a lot
of questions around folks close to the president about is he considering pardons at this point, what is the next move. haven't really gotten a ton of clarity on that just yet. but certainly this is a president who when he feels cornered, sometimes makes the sort of reflexive knee jerk move and it makes things worse. you could look at the comey firing through that lens. he was nervous about this, fired comey and that is why we have the whole mueller investigation here. so there are a lot of people trying to counsel and calm the president, but as far as what his reaction, we know that there will be a reaction at some point, just remains to be seen what that will be. >> ken, eli, i wish we had more time. thanks to both of you. next, the impact michael flynn's deal is having on wall street. stephanie rule will join us with that and we'll head to capitol hill as all of this new was unfolding, of course senate republicans were moving forward with their plan to overhaul the nation's tax code. your brain is an amazing thing. but as you get older, it naturally begins to change,
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wall street had a nearly instantaneous reaction to the michael flynn guilty plea, but the sharpest drop in the dow came after the abc news report that flynn is prepared to testify that donald trump directed him to make contact with the russians. now, they have since rebounded a bit. take a look. the dow down around 70, but at one point, it was down more than 350. stephanie ruhle joining me to take a closer look at this. why are we seeing this? >> the market doesn't react to
rumors. the market reacts to uncertainty and action. and that is what we saw today with mike flynn. mike flynn taking a plea is actual action. think about all the months president trump has lots of rhetoric. there is lots of smoke around russia. but even when terrorirump saysc things, his team walks it back the next day. but today mike flynn taking a plea is scary in terms of geopolitics, it is scary when abc is making you think that this could affect the presidency. that is a big deal. >> but until we know that, it is unlikely that the market will blow up. because even at 350 points, as a percentage basis, this is not devastating. >> without a doubt. listen, the market is up 30 on% this year. and investors know that. it is december. they will take their profits and not go through this wild ride of decemb december. if they think things are looking shaky, they will sell today and sit in cash because they have a great year. >> stay with us because we want
to talk with wall street regaining some of those losses of course. because this afternoon on the senate floor, senator mitch mcconnell came out on and he announced that republicans have the votes to pass a sweeping tax overhaul. a vote on that could come anytime. the effort was nearly derailed last night after the joint committee on taxation said that the plan would add $1 trillion to the deficit. and the senate parliamentarian said a so-called trigger to raise revenue dfrnidn't comply h senate rules. garrett, where are we? do the republicans have the votes? >> reporter: well, they certainly believe that they do and they have the he momentum at their back. several senators who had been on the on fence have come out today and publicly said that they will back it. ron johnson and steve daines new orleans came out. jeff flake who had been holding out along with bob corker announced that he will vote for it. susan collins seems to be
leaning very much in that direction. and unless there is some big surprise here, it sounds like the odd man out on this bill may be bob corker. we spoke to him and frankly, he sounded pretty defeated. >> i feel like an eyesore sometimes. and you know i ran back -- i've been here 11 years almost. and i ran because one of the reasons was my significant concerns about the fiscal issues. and you know, certainly nothing has changed. it's gotten a lot worse. >> reporter: and the republicans can afford corker to be the lone man out here. as to when they might actually vote? we don't know because they haven't released the final version of the bill yet. >> okay. keep us posted as i know you will. bob corker fascinating stuff. backme, stephanie ruhle
and megan murphy. the editorial board put this y wawa way -- i like this three women talking about world finance. okay. the senate is rushing to pass its tax bill because says the "new york times" editorial board it stinks. but the fact of the matter is, we're making changes, things are happening. on the same day that they are going to vote, this is the biggest change to taxes that we have seen in at least a generation. and the people who are voting on it won't even have a chance to read it. >> it gets worse. senator claire mccaskill just tweeted a list of amendments to the bill again that has not been he released that she says democratic senators have only received from lobbyists. and let's just discuss some of those changes that have come in over on the past two hours. putting back in the alternative minimum tax, which is a huge deal in terms of a measure that
is designed to make sures wealthiest pay their fair sure. but the changes that are still going on, the horse trading still going on, we have seen the state and local deduction being put back in, $10,000 exemption on that. these are huge changes to a bill that as understand is a generation changer in terms of tax. does the bill stink? i won't say that, but i will say it is the biggest transfer of wealth to the top 1% of america than we have seen in quite some time. >> and we've already seen that. >> and there is barely economic analysis on it. steve mnuchin had been pledging that the treasury department would be doing analysis that we learned from a whistleblower within the treasury department via a piece in the "new york times" they are not actually doing that. >> but the president says the bill is getting better and better. for whom? >> it is getting better for the wealthiest in this society. let's talk about another change that just came in, people talk about it as a small business relief, but -- >> president trump has over 500
pass-throughs. >> exactly. this is it actually more generous. >> he promised that this was not going to be a bill that was better for him. >> we've gone through the numbers. and here is the biggest thing. they have a practical problem in that their own independent analysis shows that there is still a trillion dollars short in terms of economic growth in getting the bill to pay as for sti stifl. the numbers show when you cut taxes on corporations in the hopes that they will drive investment and job creation, that money goes back to share buybacks, debt paying down and paying off -- >> and they have said that, they have havennot lied. >> bank of america said when companies have more money, they don't necessarily pay employees more. if they wanted to, they could do it now. look at the stock market. president trump and his sons cheer about the stock market performance every day. companies are flush with cash. and they are not putting factory workers back to work. they are spending that money on r and d.
what is r and d? automation. this is not going to help people on the bottom. this plan cuts for the top and it hopes for the middle. >> the reason that a lot of those jobs are going is because they have done so well with automation, they have done so well with technology, so let's say the bill goes through, they will have to bring the two sides together, house and senate will have to come to some agreement. where is this going to go that the republicans can say i voted for this, i'm proud of this vote and they won't pay the price in 2018? >> this is the problem. i think we've all been surprised that republicans have gone so hook line and sinker. but in bill is dramatically unpopular among the middle class and among working class voters. it is totally out of sync -- >> where are the conservatives who screamed about the deficit? >> john mccain was saying listen, i do care about the deficit, but what i believe this will do for the economy is greater than that. it is just unclear if that is ever going to happen. and it is amazing the shorm tts termism that we're seeing.
paul ryan knows if he didn't get anything through on december 31, on january 1, he will cease to exist and he didn't want thoesn to happen. what is this going to do against he average americans? they don't fight against taxes like they do against health care. you feel do or die. and taxes seem more abstract. >> but let's be really clear. this bill is not just a reshaping of the tax code, it also has a significant impact on health care and on access to education. these are all the things the american people aren't getting told about this bill and how wide ranging it is. and as stefr phanie says, the problem is not about the stock market or economic growth. it is about wage growth and driving up wages for middle class workers. this bill does nothing in its appearance to drive productivity up and wage growth up and that is the biggest challenge facing american families. >> and aarp says it hurts seniors. we're out of time. have a great weekend. thank you so much. we'll head back to capitol hill after the break with reaction
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abdicate. abdicates. well, we are hours after the guilty plea by the man you see there on the left. michael flynn. listen to this -- nbc news speaking with two people familiar with the matter tell us, jared kushner is the very senior member of the presidential transteam mentioned in the statement of offense as speaking to michael flynn on december 22nd about the u.n.
resolution regarding israel. let me bring in ari melber. what's the significance here? >> a significant report here. nbc news confirming that this unidentified reference to material that mike flynn admits he now lied about is a direct invocation of jared kushner. it puts jared kushner inof coorg with russians an diplomacy goals at the u.n. and raises how high these orders came pap senior advisers to be president, a family member of the president, known as a closest confidant from the campaign jared kushner says, a., he's involvemented in something mueller's investigating and, b., was jared kushner speaking on behalf of the president of the united states. >> what are the implications for jared kushner. >> say it carefully. raises questions of criminal exposure regarding the
underlining acts. what i mean, mike flynn was lying to the fbi, one, ease be sanctions put in place by barack obama's administration over russian meddling and goals regarding middle east diplomacy at the u.n. including direct contacts with russia. so if any of those underlying acts were charged, and as we've reported, not charged today. maybe have been exposure for flynn but we cooperated, reach add dereached a deal. we know flynn was involved now basically admitted to lying about it and sources tell nbc news that kushner was involved. doesn't mean we know where it ends, but it is what investigators look at whether the underlying acts, contacts, were at all part of illegal conduct. anything ranging from a violation of the logan act. private citizens under federal law are not supposed to undermine u.s. policy.
rarely prosecuted but a law. and two, get around quid pro quos or deal with other foreign nations not legal. >> so we should also say that there were a couple of mentions of senior transition officials. >> uh-huh. >> those mentioned could both be jared kushner, potentially, right? or could be another member of the transition team, but very senior or at a senior level? a very small group of people? >> it's a very small group of people and i observe this reporting on the case for some time as you have. bob mueller doesn't speak through the press. he doesn't leak. he speaks only through the actions of these lawful materials, in this case these informations, and these other lawful documents that come out, under the laws. these have to come out. the only reason they're out. one thing that has to come out in the course of a corroborating agreement or you go before the courts bep have open courts. this is notable, the breaking news just reported from nbc news, that bob mueller has put
these people, without naming them, in here. put these people here for a reason. starting to tell a story and the story is that mike flynn didn't act alone. that's part of the story that we see today. >> ari melber, watch him on "the beat" here on msnbc, 6:00 eastern. looking forward to that. i bring in senator sheldon whitehouse. that subcommittee held several hearings on russia and i just want to get -- so much is going on. let me get your reaction to the latest thing which is ari just pointed out there does seem to be this narrative that is being laid out by robert mueller. it is clear now, if you read these court documents, this was not a lone wolf kind of thing. -- on behalf of michael flynn. 2 looks as though it is jared kushner according to nbc, he is the very senior member of the presidential transition team mentioned in that statement as speaking to flynn on december 22nd about the u.n. resolution
regarding israel. your reaction, sir? >> well, this is the top person in the trump administration to be caught in this way and to be now under very stern obligations to cooperate and tell the truth. he can lead bob mueller first down the path of the collusion investigation and second down the path of the obstruction investigation, and in addition to the reference that has been connected back to mr. kushner, there's also the reference back into the mar-a-lago meeting with respect to the kislyak call with all the senior team including the president on the other side of that. so i think a lot of people are going to be scrambling in the white house to look at what they have said about that call from flynn to kislyak when it looks like from these pleadings that that call to kislyak was known to them, disclose tod to them
before and after and a very high-level approved communication from the full trump team. not just a call from flynn himself. >> you've heard and you've listened as the president has called this investigation a witch-hunt. he has called it a hoax. he has said that there is fake news surrounding this. what is your message today to those who doubt the reality of the legitimacy of this investigation, senator? >> well, here's the problem with that kind of commentary. if it's designed simply to provide political cloud cover over the white house, that's one thing. but to the extent that flynn or others can provide evidence that in making those statements trump's intent is to discourage or dissuade or confuse or otherwise interfere with grand jurors, who are participating in
this investigation, or to encourage them not to believe or to believe certain witnesses, then they themselves become evidence of obstruction of justice. and i think there are going to be a lot of people in the white house who are going to get a lot of advice about what they need to do to watch their own backs so that they don't get wrapped up into either aiding and abetting, obstruction of justice, or conspiracy to obstruct justice. >> i ask you finally, a big-picture question. there's going to be a lot of reaction to this and there will be people who get worked up and talk about what the implications of this are. as you look at this in a very measured way and as somebody who knows a lot because you have done this subcommittee that's held several hearings on russia, what does this mean for us as a country? for us as a democracy potentially elizabeth holtzman i know you know her role in watergate, comparing michael flynn to john dean, of course,
said there was a cancer on the presidency. what is your take on this big picture, senator? >> to me, this is wonderfully reassuring. you have had a president basically lying, gaslighting and trolling the country. you have had an astonishing array of corrupt and corrupted senior officials. you've just had this nasty sense that things are out of control in the country and around the white house, and even at doj. you've got a recused attorney general, a fired attorney general yates, and a fired director comey. so through all of those clouds, through all of that noise, here comes the standard, steady operation of law. thank goodness. >> senator sheldon whitehouse on what is a very busy day. didn't get to ask you about taxes. thank you for taking the time. appreciate it. >> my pleasure. that's wraps things up for
this hour. i'm chris jansing. ali she shirr picks things up now. >> thanks very much. have a good afternoon. good afternoon, i'm ali velshi. following two blockbuster stories. closer to the tax bill talked about passed, a bill that affects every single american and mr. mcconnell says he has the votes. and first, the president's national security advisers pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi about his communications with russia. right. the same man who said this about hillary clinton during the 2016 dpan. >> that's right. lock her up! if i, a guy who knows this business, if i did 1/10, 1/10 of what she did, i would be in jail today. >> he had those same words thrown back at him outside of a federal courthouse in virginia this morning. >> lock him up! lock him up! lock him up!