few prayers for my cleveland teams, maybe they might win once in a while. thank you very much for watching this hour of msnbc live. right now, more news with my colleagues, ali velshi and stephanie ruhle. >> nice to see you, friend. >> cleveland cavs, lebron, you have the king in your city. you know what? >> another championship would be nice. >> relax. >> have a good morning, chris. i'm ali velshi. >> i'm stephanie ruhle. it is friday, march 16th. let's get started. >> the stunning interview with stormy daniels' attorney with my colleagues on "foreigning joe"m" >> was she threatened? >> yes. >> physical harm? >> yes. >> did it come from the president directly, the physical threats? >> i'm not going to answer that. >> signs the trump organization could be caught in the cross hairs. >> mueller subpoenaed trump organization. >> it was my understanding there were search terms in the subpoena, and the trump organization now has to find, go

through all of their documents to be responsive to it. this is e-mails. this is all sorts of things. >> president trump once saying any investigation into his businesses would cross a red line. >> if mueller was looking at your finances and your family finances unrelated to russia, is that a red line? >> would that be a breach of what his actual charge is? >> i would say, yeah. i would say yes. >> this morning, more potential west wing chaos amid new reports national skuecurity lead mcmast is out. >> looks to be leaking that mcmaster is out. the president of the united states is calling him in saying, no, wait, i like him. i like him. >> the "washington post" is reporting on the mood inside the white house in recent days, saying this, verged on mania, as trump keeps his own counsel. >> there will always be change,

and i think you want to see change. i want to also see different ideas. >> all right. now to more breaking news. that stunning allegation you heard at the beginni inning ofs physically threatened to keep quiet. her attorney made the claim earlier on "morning joe." he didn't say who made the threat or when several new deta revealed surrounding the scandal. the interview is remarkable. we need to replay a large portion of it for you right now. remember, we're talking about the president of the united states and one of his closest advisers, an attorney who had been with him for years, michael cohen. it started with questions about daniels' unseen "60 minutes" interview, set to air march 25th. please watch this. >> have there been attempts to try and thwart that? >> we're not aware of specific

attempts, but we've certainly heard through the grapevine and others that it's been contemplated. i don't know we're out of the woods yet. i think we're going to wait and see what the next eight days brings. >> what is it your client wants? what is the story she feels compelled to tell, that she feels is important? >> well, we've been clear for some time now that ms. clifford wants a platform in which she can tell her story unrestrained. can tell the american people the truth about what happened, not just about the relationship with the president. also, about the attempts by the president and mr. cohen to muzzle her and prevent her from telling her story. >> those attempts include a $130,000 payment to silence her? >> well, they include the $130,000 payment, but they certainly did not end there. >> i'm curious about $130,000. that's a strange amount. i mean, i've talked to women who have signed ndas and seen them from the company perspective throughout my career for different reasons.

it's a strange number. it usually is much higher for even someone with far less of a financial fortune. what did that cover exactly? where did the number come from? >> i think once my client is permitted the opportunity to provide her story, that it is going to become apparent as to how that number was arrived at. i agree with you, it is a very low number, and i think it flies in the face of accusations by people that, somehow, she was trying to shake down then-presidential candidate trump. >> right. >> i think once she's able to tell her story, and the american people can gauge her voracity, people are going to come away very impressed by her. they're going to come away with no doubt that she is very, very credible. >> do you have any doubt in your mind that president trump himself directed that payment to your client? >> none. >> you say you have no doubt. do you have proof that that happened? >> i'm not going to get into the evidence that we have. we obviously have not laid out

all the evidence in the complaint that we filed. we would be foolish to do so. no good attorney would ever do that. we have a sub tstantial amount evidence. substantial amount of facts supporting the allegations in the complaint. >> does ms. daniels have physical documentation of her relationship, alleged relationship, with president trump? >> i'm not going to answer that. >> do you get into that in the "60 minutes" interview? >> i'm not going to answer that. >> we'll have to watch and see. >> yes. >> first, related to the new women who have come forward and approached you, you said there were six who came forward. obviously, interesting, in the sense we're interested in the president's behavior before he became president, but in what way does that -- how does that play into the actual case you're trying to play out here? >> well, i don't know that it does. i want to be really, really clear about something. we've been approached by six separate women who tell six stories. we have not vetted those stories. we are in the very preliminary stages of determining the

voracity of those stories. >> right. >> we haven't determined whether we're going to represent them. >> right. >> we are at the very, very early stages. i want to preach caution, which i have done for weeks now in connection with this case. it is very, very important that we don't get over the tips of our skis in connection with this. if this nee this needs to be a measures, thoughtful approach, and that's what we're doing. >> asking this in a cautious way, they're similar in the respects you have six people who claim -- again, unvetted, don't know if they're telling the truth -- but, a, that i had they have some kind of sexual relationship with the president of the united states? >> yes. >> and, b, they have confidentiality agreements that keep them from speaking? >> some of them. >> at least two of them. again, people can claim all kinds of things. >> i know. >> what is it about the relationship though that americans should know about? >> why is it important? >> there are a lot of people that may be saying, well, this is a consensual relationship between two adults.

why go to war over that? >> well, i think a lot of that is going to become apparent in the interview. i'm not going to disclose what the interview contains at this point. >> there is more than just a -- there is more than a consensual relationship here that she wants to tell the country about? >> there's the act, and there is the coverup. the american people are going to learn about both in the interview and beyond. >> was she threatened in any way? >> yes. >> was she threatened physical harm? >> yes. >> oh, wow. >> keep going, mika. >> i mean, we started and -- >> was her life threatened? >> again, i'm not going to answer that. people have to tune in to "60 minutes" on march 25th. >> what can you tell us about the threats, the physical threats? >> i can't tell you anything beyond what i've already said. again -- >> can you tell us whether it came from the president directly, the physical threats? >> i'm not going to answer that. >> will you deny that the

president of the united states threatened your client? >> i will not confirm or deny. >> will you confirm or deny that in the "60 minutes" interview? >> again, i think it'll become apparent to people when they tune into "60 minutes" on march 25th as to the details relating to the threat. the american people can judge for themselves who is telling the truth and who is not telling the truth. we're not trying to silence anyone. we want both sides to lay out their version of the facts so the american people can decide for themselves what happened. >> let me ask one more question about the threat. the threat, does it emanate from one of the parties to the agreement, or someone associated with one of the parties to the agreement? >> i'm not at liberty to express that. >> yes or no question. was the threat verbal? >> can't say yes or no to that. >> did anyone point a gun at her? >> i'm not at liberty to extress that. you can ask 17 ways, and i'm going to give you the same answer. >> wow. >> that is a real wow. >> you could say all day long the president had an

extramarital affair. that's not what the wow is. >> yeah, that's not what this has become. >> the president had an affair with this woman who was then paid off. if the campaign was aware, if campaign funds were used -- >> or trump organization funds were used. >> -- and this woman was physically threatened, that's more than a wow. >> let's dig into this a little deeper with msnbc's danny cevallos and also a reporter who was once threatened by president trump's lawyer, as well, brandi. brandi, this speaks to the issue of -- >> who michael cohen is. we don't know. and because it wasn't said who issued a threat. you've done reporting on the trump family and have been threatened by michael cohen. tell us about that. >> michael cohen is famously donald trump's fixer. he uses both charm and fear to get the job done. he's known around the office as the ray donovan, and he revels in that. >> ray donovan. >> yes. >> that's straight up gangster.

>> that's what he thinks of himself, yes. >> what things did they threaten you with? >> when i was reporting for the "daily beast" in the runup to the -- run up to the election, we were reporting on rape allegations ms. trump made against the to-be president. we said, what do you think? he said, i'll see you in a courthouse one day in the future and take you for every penny you don't have. what i will do to you being bleeping disgusting. >> we have a sound bite first. >> well, that's -- yeah, let's do that. let's get the full screen of what he said with respect to the "daily beast" reporting on donald trump's ex-wife, ivana. tread effing lightly. what i'm going to do to you is going to be effing disgusting. he says, you want to ruin your life at the age of 20?

is he talking about you? >> hold on. you write a story that has mr. trump's story in it with the word rape, and i'm going to mess your life up. you want to ruin your life at 20? you do that, and i'll be happy to serve it up to you. i think you should write the story because i think you're an idiot. i think your paper is a joke, and it is going to be my pleasure to serve you with a $500 million lawsuit. >> who is he talking about? >> he was talking about my colleague, tim, who is not 20. >> the flavor of the threat remains. >> yeah. that lawsuit never came, strangely. we waited, but it never did come. he says the word lawsuit, but those other words, they don't imply, i'm going to serve you with a lawsuit and take you to court before a judge. they imply some sort of danger, i think. >> megyn kelly shared the same sentiment. let's actually share the sound. last year, megyn kelly was talking about her interactions with michael cohen. >> this is after she challenged donald trump in one of the

debates. >> take a look. >> michael cohen, who is trump's top lawyer and an executive vice president with the trump organization had re-tweeted, let's gut her, about me. at a time when the threat level was very high, which he knew. bill shine, an executive vice president of fox, called him up to say, you have to stop this. we understand you're angry, but this is -- she's got three kids, walking around new york. really. he didn't much care. what bill shine said to michael cohen was, let me put it to you in terms you can understand. if megyn kelly gets killed, it is not going to help your candidate. >> wow. >> danny? >> first of all, if this is true, any part of this is true, what bearing does it have on this nondisclosure agreement that, apparently, has been signed between stormy daniels and somebody? >> by statute, a party in california can rescind, take back a contract, if their original consent was procured by menace, by fraud, by some kind

of duress. it is important to understand, not all duress will get us out of contracts. that's why duress is normally a pretty high standard to meet. when you think about it, we all enter into contracts under some form of duress. you buy a house because you're under the stress of not having a house to live? >> right. >> when it crosses the line to physical threats, that's the duress that could allow someone to rescind a contract. but it is more than that. physical threats, to sign a contract or do anything, constitutes extortion, which is a crime. there is more. even threats without the contract at all, in almost all states that i can think of, will result in a crime itself. terroristic threats or something else like that. so, there are many legal problems that are raised by this allegation of physical force in return for signing a contract. >> why does this story stick? there are -- i don't want to say dozens, but there are definitely

over ten women that accused president trump of harassing them or inappropriate behavior over the last 20 years. they've sort of gone by the wayside. why is this so important and posing such a huge problem for the president, the white house and mr. cohen? >> legally speaking, it's this, it will be cataclysmic if this case remains in a california state court and the president is somehow forced to appear for a deposition, or even produce discovery or produce documents. when you think about the broad scope of discovery in civil cases, virtually anything reasonably calculated to lead to admissible discoverab discoverable. that's why the president realizes, this case, for him to survive in his administration, needs to be in arbitration. arbitration is private. most people, you can never find out what happens in an arbitration. the terms of the contract, if it is ultimately enforceable, allows them to obtain that tro they obtained without any

notice, without any due process. >> temporary restraining order. >> everything about arbitration is good for the president. everything about being in court is bad. >> leave it there. >> can we remind the audience, you and i, ali, because it is important, for those who hear the story and say, why is it president trump's base, a large portion of his base, don't listen to this, deny it, are willing to close the door? because a large portion of them, who are part of the family values, evangelical community, are very happy about what president trump is doing on the justice side. >> neil gorsuch, federal judges, taking a firm stand on abortion and on the second amendment. that is much more important to a lot of people. when you wosay, why is not everyone outraged by the allegations? >> the president is on track to possibly set records in the amount of judges he can appoint. remember, presidents come and go. people might not know him in four years. judges and the majority appointed are white males under the age of 40. they will be there for decades.

>> danny sa value land brandi, very much. it is friday, so we're on pink slip watch. >> who leaves the white house? >> i felt i was up all night last night with several people inside the administration. >> what did you say? you were up late last night with several people from the administration? >> i was on the phone reporting. >> oh, okay. >> they all agree, they have no idea what's happening inside the white house. doesn't seem good. new reports say president trump could fire more people any minute now. question is, why? what does he want? true loyalists around him? maybe. you're watching "velshi & ruhle." who were sure of it.

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welcome back to "velshi & ruhle." the "wall street journal" is reporting president trump and his chief of staff john kelly reached a truce amid reports kelly could be fired as early as -- who does this? >> that is reported today. i promise, last night, there were leaks coming out of that white house going, kelly, he's in trouble. >> this comes just days after the firing of secretary of state rex tillerson. kelly reportedly criticized that decision and wasn't quiet about it while talking with his aides. >> we're also watching for news about national security adviser hr mcmaster. nbc news first reporting weeks ago, the white house was preparing to replace him by the end of the month. now, the "washington post" and the "new york times" says trump decided to remove mcmaster, with the decision possibly coming

today. mcmaster, of course, replaced michael flynn last february, who resigned after 24 days on the job. since then, mcmaster and trump clashed on policy, with nbc news reporting they've had a strained relationship were monfor months. here's what is important to note, hr mcmaster was one of the people -- after president trump was elected, the market specifically -- you talk to investors and they said, listen, we know trump can be unhinged -- >> but mcmaster is not. >> you have mattis, mcmaster, tillerson, gary cohn. suddenly, you don't. whether mcmaster is leaving today or the end of the month, from my reporting, he's not leaving today. in fact, last night, he was packing but not to leave washington. he was going on a regularly scheduled trip. >> right. >> you wonder, what is motivating trump? as things are getting tighter with the robert mueller investigation, now that we know that trump has been served a subpoena for some trump organization documents, does president trump now want to be

surrounded by true trump loyalists? we talked about this earlier the week. >> people who will not testify against you, will not tell the mueller investigation things you don't want them to tell. people whom the truth might not be a priority mike it would be for mcmaster. >> pompeo tweeted and then deleted it about wikileaks. two days later, trump said, russia, get the e-mails. is it that trump wants to surround himself by those who will protect him at any cost? >> a lot of people have left the administration and the white house. let's look at how fast the revolving door has been spinning at this white house. in his cabinet, rex tillerson, secretary of state, was the latest to be fired by trump on twitter. last fall, tom price resigned over his criticism -- over criticism of his private jet travel. let's take a look at the oval office now. top economic adviser gary cohn quit after losing the tariff battle to wilbur ross and peter

nava rthanavarr navarro. reince priebus was ousted in favor of general john kelly, who seems to be in some trouble. katie walsh, rick deerborn, deputy chiefs, both gone. along with steve bannon who resigned in august amid a lot of confrontations with his colleagues. national security adviser mike flynn. you all remember him? he resigned so long ago, you might have forgotten. he is key to the mueller investigation. he later entered a guilty plea in the special counsel's investigation. deputy national security advisers dina powell and kt mcfarland are out. a flynn hire, watnik, was removed by mcmaster, who is also in trouble. rob porter resigned following allegations of spousal abuse. >> this is crazy. >> i know. he had allegations against his -- two of his ex-wives.

an aide close to jared and ivanka is out. newman edged out of the office of public liaison. and the assistant sebastian gorka was pushed out. we don't know why. it was just after we had an interview with him several months ago. it is hard to keep up with the communications directors. the president is looking for his fifth communication director after long-time aide hope hicks resigned last month. the question is, who is next? we've talked about -- >> you don't have epstein on there. he was on the communication -- >> we left boris off. that's the problem when you're trying to get through lists like this. mcmaster is in trouble. there's also va secretary david shilkin, under scrutiny for a trip he took with his wife. and jeff sessions, the former alabama senator, has been on the outs with trump kind of from the beginning. >> for doing his job. >> by recusing himself from the russia investigation.

anyone's guess how long he has left on the job. trump calls him mr. mugu and makes fun of him. >> wilbur ross, it has been reported multiple times, fell asleep in meetings. jeff sessions has been off sides with the president for months and months paubecause he didn't recuse himself. a name not on here is john kelly. it's been widely reported there are some in the white house that want to push kelly out. if mcmaster is out, here's a question, who is going to replace these people? who is going to be confirmed? i talked to people in the white house last night. could it be john bolton? another name is kellogg, one of the deputies in the white house. someone said, if it was kellogg, there'd be mutiny inside the white house. to find people to remace tplace individuals on the outs, you didn't mention ben carson. >> he hasn't left. he could be on the last screen there where we showed the people on the outs. the president has not made any comments about ben carson, interestingly enough.

>> people i've spoken to said he's not happy. he's not happy about the dining room set, the private flights people are taking. steve mnuchin racked up $1 million worth of military flights. why? previous secretaries flew commercial and coach. geoff bennet jot joining us. people in the white house say there's something about to go down, but it is anyone's guess. >> reporter: the comparisons between the "thapprentice" and e white house has never been more fitting. it's about the fates of trump aides and officials. it's safe to say chief of staff john kelly is not going anywhere soon. multiple officials have pushed back against the reporting suggesting otherwise. as for mr mcmaster, the national security adviser, we know his departure is imminent, but as

long as mcmaster stays at the white house remains unclear. the president and mcmaster have had public disagreements over policy on issues such as iran, afghanistan and russia. privately, their relationship has been rocky for months. here, you have mcmaster, who is a career army officer and scholar. he's described as being aggressive, relentless. as one person put it to me, he's all transmit, meaning he likes to lecture. in oval office meetings, you have mcmaster, said to have bored and annoyed the president by meticulously laying out the pros and cons on major policy questions. in effect, doing his job. president trump is said to no longer value mcmaster's ideas. it is not an issue of competence but more of a personality clash. >> interesting point you make. one of the things about mike pompeo that he has said he does is he gives the president -- organizes the briefings in three buckets and keeps them short. pompeo seems to have mastered how to deliver information to

the president. mcmaster, it seems, has not. >> reporter: certainly the case. pompeo is a trump support, some would say a loyalist, and his closeness to the president could possibly be a problem for him when it comes time to get confirmed on the senate. there are democrats who have a lot of issues about pompeo's perceived independence from the president. >> the last day and a half, what is it going to mean for larry kudlow? he disagrees with the president on trade. doesn't mean anything. larry kudlow knows how to please and flatter the president, and that is, in fact, what president trump likes. >> geoff, good to see you. it's mueller time at the trump tower. robert mueller is reportedly subpoenaing the trump organization. we'll talk about what that means for the investigation when we come back. you're watching "velshi & ruhle."

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welcome back to "velshi & ruhle." the russia unvest gagsinvestigas to be closer than ever to president trump. mueller subpoenaed the trump organization for records relating to the russia investigation, including documents linked to other topics

he is investigating. >> could be the first known time mueller demanded records related to trump's business, something the president once said would cross a red line. trump lawyer says the company is, quote, fully cooperative with all investigations, including the special counsel and is responding to their requests. this is old news, and our assistaassis assistance and cooperation is the say now as it was then. >> the president believes there was no collusion between the trump campaign and russia. we're going to continue to cooperate with the special counsel and for questions specific to the trump organization, i'd refer you to then. >> joining us is jill wine-banks, former watergate prosecut prosecutor. white house always says, i have no comment. i'll refer you to the lawyers. what is the word i can say on tv? they give nonsensical statements. when they say it is old news, it

is not news if we didn't know about it. if they've been cooperating with the investigation for some time, it is brand-new news to us, that that's happening. it is of some significance, that robert mueller has ignored the president's red line and has said, i want information -- i want to subpoena information from the trump organization. what is the relevance of that? >> first of all, the red line was really limited to if he went beyond russia. we don't know what's in the subpoena. whether the documents requested all relate to russia, either money that came to the trump organization from russia, or whether it also includes monies that went from the organization to perhaps stormy daniels or other women. we don't know how far up field the subpoena goes, but it is definitely significant and mueller must have a lot of evidence that gives him the support to know that he's going to get documents that are relevant to his investigation.

because he does run the risk of angering the president, having the president do something that would, i think, be politically foolhar foolhardy, but that doesn't always top tstop the president doing them. >> he has supporters in congress who want to limit what mueller can do. what's interesting, mueller is not only investigating collusion, but he seems to have broadened this to, obviously, whether trump, his associates, his business or his campaign interfered with or obstructed the investigation. that part of the investigation alone gives mueller a little more latitude. >> absolutely. it could also be the following the money, which has always been a risk to donald trump because of his business. also, just because of how the campaign operated. this also may show the need for watergate style special prosecution legislation. when we operated, we were under a different law and had much more jurisdictional

responsibility than has been allotted to mueller. what he has to be careful of is that he doesn't exceed that jurisdictional limit. the red line is one thing. >> right. >> that's a threat the president makes. >> but the legal limitations are another. >> right, exactly. >> as president trump said earlier this week when he was speaking, i want to say in san diego, you never want to get on the wrong side of a decorated marine. >> good point. jill, good to see you, as always. thank you. former assistant watergate prosecutor. >> will we know the date in which trump was subpoenaed? >> if it becomes public. >> you know why i want to know that? even though his lawyer could say, this is not new news, in the last couple weeks, we've gotten the witch hunt tweets. i'd love to know how the line, what prompted those. intelligence says russia is interfering in the 2018 midterm elections right now. today, we're learning more about the ways in which russia is targeting infrastructure and

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to find more survivors. munilla construction, building the bridge, expressed remorse and said they'll conduct an investigation to determine what went wrong. a u.s. helicopter crashed in iraq, killing seven american service members aboard. officials told nbc news there was no enemy fire involved based on early indications. they say it appeared to be an accident during a routine troop movement. this just in. the oldest member of the house of representatives has passed away. new york democratic congresswoman louise slaughter died after being hospitalized with a concussion. she was injured during a fall at her home in washington. the congress womwoman was 80 ye old and had represented her district since 1987. >> a lot of bad news. the trump administration under fire again this morning for excessive spending of taxpayer money. new documents obtained by

citizens for responsible ethics in washington are putting treasury secretary steve mnuchin under new scrutiny for his costly use of military jets during kovrgovernment travel. you know what i'm looking for? the legislative agenda. let the white house be under fire for things they're actually doing. this is crazy. why is the treasury secretary spending $1 million. a guy who himself is worth hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer dollars. military plane? please. >> former health and human services secretary, tom price, resigned after revolutions he spent $400,000 in taxpayer money on chartered flights. epa administrator, scott pruitt, has been criticized for flying first class. the lavish spending is the thing president trump campaigned against in his promise to fight it while in office. >> we are going to ask every department head in government to provide a list of wasteful

spending on projects we can eliminate in my first 100 days. the politicians have talked about this for years. but i'm going to do it. we won't let your money be wasted anymore. we're going to run government smoothly, efficiently and on behalf of the very hard working taxpayers. something that the taxpayers haven't seen in a long time. i will be holding everyone accountable for that. one by one, we're checking off the promises we made to the people of the united states. one by one. a lot of promises. and we will not stop until the job is done. we will cut wasteful spending. we will promote our values. we want to also reduce excessive government spending, and that's what we're working on at our cabinet meeting today. >> well, mr. president, i certainly hope you do that with your own cabinet. ryan zinke, who said it was

preposterous to say he was taking private jets said they were propeller engines. same difference. >> yeah. in other news, u.s. intelligence agencies released a report detailing russian cyber attacks against american infrastructure. it dates back many years. the dhs and fbi call this a multi-stage intrusion campaign by the russian government. it utilized a number of sophisticated hacking techniques to gain access or attempt to gain access to a number of sectors, including energy. when russia attacked ukraine's power grid, hundreds of thousands were left without power. aviation. private security firms indicate russian hackers have had their eye on american and european aviation companies for almost ten years. water. tampering with water supply systems could potentially have catastrophic results. commercial fa till cilitiefacil. private companies may have been

sabotaged to gain access to the centers. manufacturing. it may have been a potential infrastructure target. perhaps the most frightening of all. turn up the volume. nuclear power. the report was short on specifics, but we do know the russian government targeted certain organizations rather than casting a wide net. that's scary stuff. >> we're joined by investigat n investigations reporter tom winter. what do we know about the nature of the attacks? >> ali, something that's different with these attacks than we've seen before is these were specifically targeted attacks. this wasn't just looking for some sort of a target of opportunity or let's see where we can go with this. >> wasn't fishing. >> exactly. they weren't just trying to see whatever company we can get into. we know from yesterday's -- from the technical alert put out by the fbi and dhs that stephanie referenced that there was a targeted campaign to get into specific companies, to get into specific industries, and to target those industries for

access and to be able to get to the point where they would have control. i want to be able to show something on screen. this was what dhs said was reconstructed screen grab of a system. not sure if we'll be able to show it but, basically, it was -- >> oh. >> yeah, if you look at the graphic, and i don't work at a power plant, but it is easy to see from the screen, we see here a turbine process. we see power factors and fuel flow. the redactions on there were put in by dhs, presumably so we don't know which specific system this was or which specific plant this was. but that's a screen they say the russians would have been able to had access to. this is a pretty sophisticated and deliberate target. >> in the days when we had conventional weapons and nuclear weapons and military buildups, the way you had treaties to deal with this is government to government. you could monitor and count what was going on. >> exactly. >> i think back to what the

united states had involvement in with iran and its nuclear facilities, you know. viruses and stuff. this may be the future of warfare, and it is harder to make deals about not doing it to each other because you can't monitor it. >> different campaigns going on at different times. countries try to make it seem like another country. >> or non-state actors. >> or they have maybe somebody in the united states facilitating this on behalf of a state actor. we don't have a lot of rules of the road to this. with conventional weapons, we say, we're going to drill and do this. we're going to add nuclear weapons here or subtract them. >> you can have this many, and we can inspect them. >> we don't have rules for the road for this. the cyber world is a wild west. it is wild west between major nation states, including our own, china, russia, iran, other smaller countries that also have technical ability. it requires, in some cases, a lot of money, super computing

power, and some case, it requires almost no money at all. >> this isn't like the sony hac. everybody understands your e-mail can be hacked. this is power plants. >> nuclear facilities. >> water. i mean, this is -- this could be really serious. >> this is very serious. when you -- when i first started getting kind of read in and engaged in the cyber realm, which is what we were starting to do in the nbc news investigative unit while all this was going on with russia, everybody pointed us to the 2015 ukrainian power grid hack, which is similar to what the russians were able to do. it was targeted, deliberative, organized. you mentioned before, hundreds of thousands of people. 230,000 people were without power in the ukraine. they were even able to jam their call centers so you couldn't call them up and say, hey, when am i getting my power back? you didn't have the ability to do that. these are attacks in the cyber

security. they looked at the attacks and said, we are definitely in a new realm and a new world. there's no allegations here that at any point the russians, you know, hit the button and turned off a power plant, but they might have had the ability to. >> remember, putin says, whoever controls artificial intelligence is going to control the world. tom winter, thank you for delivering a weekend full of nightmares. >> no kidding. president trump and his administration lied about trade with our closest ally, canada. >> why do we have to do this? it gets me mad every time we talk about this. the white house is set to target another country on trade. see if they lie about them, too. tell you who is next on trump's list. we are watching the markets this hour. you are seeing the markets in the green. it's been somewhat of a volatile week. the question is, are the markets paying attention to earnings, to companies, or are they paying attention to the crazy stuff in the white house. today, they seem to be happy. >> you're watching "velshi & ruhle" live on msnbc. we'll be right back.

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the cheeks don't lie, chet... irresistibly planters. welcome back to velshi and rule. the white house is about to spark another trade rule. the top advisers are looking at several actions including on chinese experts. part of the plan to punish china for theft on intellectual property. >> these negotiations come as

they are having a trade in canada. the white house insists over and over the united states has a trade deficit with canada. >> here is the program lineup. at best, that statistic is misleading. at worst, it's a straight-up, flat out lie. here is the reality. >> the united states has a very large surplus in trade, tourism, energy, transportation, things like that. we have a deficit when it comes to only goods. when you talk about a trade deficit, unless you say otherwise, you are always including goods and services. >> so, the united states, most definitely, this is just simple math, has a trade surplus can canada. canada buys more things from the united states than the united states buys from canada to the tune of 12.5 billi$12.5 billion. >> this is not being sassy or

bias. >> just a fact. >> this is how you calculate a trade deficit. joe joins us live. >> good to see you, as always. >> i want to put the numbers up for people to understand this. i hate the idea we have to fact check as opposed to debate good or bad trade practices. there may be validity in the fact free trade agreements put workers out of work. the bottom line is mexico and canada are the biggest trading partners. these numbers on the screen belie the size of trade between canada and the united states. >> without question. this is a $12 billion surplus. what you are missing here is that the trade that goes back and forth between the united states and canada is around $800 billion. it's a gigantic amount of money. the trade that goes back and forth between mexico and the united states is a gigantic amount of money.

this surplus exists in no small part because of nafta, which is a bad deal for america and wants to overturn and which he says to canada, oh, fellas, we are going to give you an exemption for the moment on the steel tariffs we are hitting everybody else with. if you don't play ball with us on nafta, you are not exempt anymore. this has the world angry. it's a trade blackmail. he is doing the same thing with the european union and they are furious. >> they might be furious, i can't believe i'm saying this, but could it work? a large portion of trump supporters might say, i don't care if you don't like us, america first. could this blackmail, if legal, work? >> no, it won't. >> that's the important part. >> it will raise prices in the united states and cause retaliation. so, the european union is planning on putting a tariff on

jim beam and harley-davidson and wisconsin cheese. if they do that and the united states ratchets up another one and the eu ratchets up another one. what do you think china is going to do when they are hit with $30 billion worth of tariffs? they are going to hit the united states. >> to that point, with the steel tariffs, it was about china and mexico, then steel workers. china does things reasonable people agree need to be curtailed. >> absolutely. intellectual property, theft of it is a huge deal. >> huge. >> imposing tariffs without negotiation, is that the way to solve that problem or is all you are doing is triggering a trade war that is bad for everybody? that's the question the trump administration is not trying to answer. >> that's the point, they are not trying to answer. >> this is how we are going to do it. we don't care what the chinese

say, we are not going to talk to them about this. >> to stephanie's point, if you are trying to isolate china and put pressure on them to be a better neighbor, wouldn't staying in the transpacific partnership given us more influence? >> don't get me started. that is the dumbest -- well, not the dumbest thing that donald -- it was really stupid. basically, the whole point of the transpacific partnership was pull them away from china -- >> toward the united states. >> toward the united states. you have said you are on your own fellas, we are out. china said, hey, we are happy to sign agreements with all of you. >> and they all have. >> that's where we are headed. that's what's happening. >> yeah. you said it for all of us. >> you know, you just said the united states decided to close these tariffs without talking to china. the president did it without talking to the treasury

department, defense department or state department. >> why would china get a call? >> my wife tells me i groan too much when i talk about trump. >> we love the groaning. it speaks volumes. we are done for today. i'm not done for today, i'm back at 3:00. >> i'm headed for the airport. >> why? >> tomorrow, this guy and i, there they are, his cowboy boots. i hope he wears leather chaps. we will be broadcasting in south by southwest. we will dig deep in the lone star state? >> that's right. live at 12:30 as we are on saturdays. live from south by southwest. if you have ideas or questions, we are talking technology and an interesting concept called universal income. hit us up at velshi ruhle. we would love to hear from you. >> thanks so much for joining us, we appreciate it.

there's a lot to cover. have you been to south by southwest? >> i have. i love it. right now, andrea mitchell. right now an andrea mitchell reports, storm warning. stormy daniel's lawyer takes it to a new level in a jaw dropping exchange on "morning joe" when asked, for the first time publicly whether she was threatened to stay quiet about her alleged relationship with donald trump. >> was she threatened in any way? >> yes. >> was she threatened physical harm? >> yes. >> can you tell us whether it came from the president directly? >> i'm not going to answer that. >> will you deny the president of the united states threatened your client? >> i will not confirm or deny. >> firing squad. white house and cabinet officials on edge with more shake ups expected. no fewer than three cabinet officials being targeted. >> we have some wonderful ideas. i ha