thanks to all of you for the time. that wraps it up for us at this hour at msnbc. you can join me tomorrow at 2:00 p.m. and 3:00 p.m. eastern time. all in with chris hayes is coming up next on msnbc. have a great night. tonight on all in. >> he started yesterday. he'll get his facts straight. >> the trump and rudy show continues. >> we're not changing any stories. >> tonight as the president and his new attorney attempt to get on the same page. >> excuse me, you take a look at what i just said. >> how rudy guiliani keeps making things worse. >> we love rudy. he's a special guy. >> then why the president was praising paul manafort on stage today. >> there for a short while but he's a good person. >> what happened when the man who said he would get tough on the nra spoke at their convention today. >> some of you people are petrified of the nra. you can't be petrified. >> when all in starts now. >> thank you, kanye.

>> good evening from new york. i'm joy reid in for chris hayes. donald trump's efforts to clean up the mess made by his new personal attorney rudy guiliani have managed to make things worse. speaking to reporters this morning, the president suggested that giuliani didn't know what he was talking about when he said trump reimbursed mike cohen for his hush money payment to stormy daniels just before the 2016 election. >> i'll tell you what, rudy is a great guy but he just started a day ago. but he really has his heart into it. he's working hard. he's learning the subject matter. and he's going to be issuing a statement, too. but he is a great guy. he knows it's a witch hunt. that's what he knows. he started yesterday. he'll get his facts straight. he's a great guy. >> well, that flies in the face of what giuliani told nbc news last night. "you're not going to see daylight between the president and me."

trump, today, distanced himself from that giuliani media blitz that was while designed to clear the president of potential campaign finance violations seems to have increased his peeved -- media exposure. >> that was money that was paid by his lawyer the way i would do out of his law firm funds or whatever funds, doesn't matter. the president reimbursed that over a period of several months. >> imagine if that came out october 15th, 2016 in the middle of the last debate, hillary clinton. cohen made it go away. he did his job. >> despite having denied knowing anything about the daniels payment, trump today insisted there's no contradiction between his and giuliani's accounts. >> we're not changing any stories. to be bringing up that kind of crap and to be bringing up witch hunts all the time, that's all you want to talk about. you are going to see -- excuse me, excuse me. excuse me, you take a look at what i said. you'll see what i said. >> you said on air force you did not know anything about the payments. >> excuse me. take a look what i said. you go back and take a look.

you'll see what i said. >> okay, let's see what he said. >> did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no. >> then why did michael cohen make it if there was no truth? >> you'll have to ask michael. michael is my attorney. you'll have to ask michael. >> do you know where he got the money to make that payment? >> no, i don't know. >> giuliani put out a statement today walking back his earlier comments. but it does nothing to clarify the president's role in paying off stormy daniels. here is what that statement said. first, there is no campaign violation. the payment was made to resolve a personal and false allegation in order to protect the president's family. it would have been done in any event whether he was a candidate or not. second, my reference to timing were not describing my understanding of the president's knowledge but instead my understanding of these matters." okay. so giuliani also tried to clear up remarks that according to some observers might have strengthened the obstruction of justice case against his client.

>> he fired comey because comey would not, among other things, say that he wasn't a target of the investigation. so he fired him and he said i'm free of this guy. >> well, giuliani said in his statement today it is undisputed the president's dismissal of comey was cleary within his power. recent revelations about former director comey confirmed the wisdom of the president's decision which was plainly in the best interests of our nation." trump also had something to say today on the topic of obstruction of justice. >> very funny. if you fight back because you people say something wrong or they say something wrong or they leak which they've been doing, if you fight back, they say oh, that's obstruction of justice. somebody says something wrong, you fight back, they say that's obstruction of justice. it's nonsense. >> for more on what's going on with the trump legal team, kelly o'donnell joins me live from the white house.

okay, kelly, one question. who on the donald trump looel team prepped rudy giuliani for his media tour? >> joy, i think two words. the president. what we are reporting is from talking with giuliani and others is that he and the president had gone over the strategy in advance of giuliani doing television and print interviews. and what we are told is they agreed that the main point that giuliani was to get out was to release in some form the idea that trump had in fact paid stormy daniels' fees to michael cohen, that reimbursement that because they believe that in investigators already possession that information, it would be important for the president and his team to get that out first. however, that didn't play quite the way the president and others expected. giuliani also talked with people in his own circle, legal and political circles to get advice on whether that was a good move to put that information out before it came out either through a newspaper or

television report or from investigators. so there's still some agreement on that. but what we saw today, joy, is the president wants to reclaim the absence of knowledge on when he began paying that fee. he did acknowledge it on twitter saying it was a reimbursement but the timing, when he knew is now a question once again. joy? >> kelly o'donnell, thank you for joining me. to help understand what is going on with rudy guiliani, i'm joined by michael daley from "the daily beast" whose latest piece is entitled "rudy guiliani the mob buster now sounds like a mob mouthpiece. ouch. giuliani leaks when is he wants to leak. you talk in your piece about the fact. >> he's famous for that. >> the patrick doors man leak, the juvenile records. >> when he held up the guy's criminal record. he leaked a juvenile record. he said, this is no choir boy. it turns out he was a choir boy.

>> this was a kid shot by a young man shot by police. talk about the behavior of him now versus then. rudy guiliani is famous for being pro law enforcement and having a special relationship with the new york fbi. how odd was it for you as a reporter who covered him to hear him refer to the fbi as storm troopers? >> particularly shocking in the circumstances. he's done many search warrants. he knows that to get a search warrant like the bug that they put in the jaguar, the mafia cop on the jaguar that made the commission case, he knows you have to go to a judge and show probable cause. if you've got to show probable cause for a mafia cop, imagine how much have you to you you have to search the personal office of the president of the united states? he knows that. they must have said we've got four truckloads of probable cause and another four coming but then -- i mean. >> was he considered a good lawyer when he was the u.s. attorney here in new york? >> yeah, he's a smart guy.

and i mean, everybody considered him like mr. law and order. >> yeah. >> but he's not like a robert mueller. >> yeah. >> who is -- is you know, he's just doing his work. we're all saying what's this? who says this, who says that. they're saying this, he's saying that. meanwhile, we're kind of like on a witch hunt. a w-h-i-c-h thing, which do we want to believe. mueller is on a which hunt, what is the truth? that wasn't rudy's think, it was the who hunt, who am i. >> right. >> and, i think, it's not for n nothing he became very well known. >> right. >> personally, i have a hard time because we have mutual friends who were murdered at the trade center. and trump long before he ran for president starred telling

everybody i lost hundreds of friends at the trade center, did nothing for anybody. he saw this and that that never happened you. have a guy had repeatedly lied about 9/11. and you got rudy giuliani standing next to him on the 15th anniversary of the attack. rudy and chris christie are on either side of trump like two little lap dogs when he went walking off, they want skipping after him. i'm like, what's going on. christie, you can understand. he shows who he was. but because i've seen him at another observance yucking it up with his pal who shut down the bridge. giuliani, some part of me as crazy as he may get at the core, he's kind of a decent guy. i've got to say when i saw him with trump and if you watched the other night when he's twisting and turning and calling fbi agencies storm troopers, it's almost like these guys enter a zone where the truth doesn't matter, it is whatever you decide it is. >> could he and trump just share

a mutual grievance that might be named jim comey? we know comey before he he was fired wanted what launched an investigation into rudy guiliani and into whether or not he had had knowledge he shouldn't have had regarding the reopening of the hillary clinton e-mail investigation. >> i thought i turned that off. >> somebody wants to get in touch with you. >> i'll talk to him later. >> could it just be the grievance, the mutual grievance they share potentially against comey? >> i -- i don't think, you know, i think comey's something for them to swak around. you know? for trump to be so aggressively going after comey tells me that he's afraid. if he's not afraid of something, why is he going after this guy like that? >> yeah. >> why does he say comey should go to jail, comey's a leaker, comey is this. come on. and rudy joins him in that. i don't think rudy is afraid. he says comey is my friend. >> they worked together. >> we're colleagues and all this stuff. >> sure, sure. >> but, when it comes down to

it, rudy will do whatever will ingratiate him with donald trump. >> michael daly, appreciate you being here today. thank you. for more on giuliani's relationship with the president and what this means for michael cohen, i'm joined by pulitzer prize winning reporter david kay johnston, what the trump administration is doing to america and contributor emily jane fox, senior reporter at "vanity fair" who has a new book "born trump, inside america's first family." emily, i'm going to come to you first. it is perplexing what it is that attracts rudy giuliani to donald trump and makes him so loyal. he wanted to be secretary of state. he didn't get that. people thought maybe he'll get attorney general. he didn't. they have a long friendship and relationship. let's talk about the other way around. you did a biography coming out about donald trump. why would he turn to somebody like rudy giuliani? why, specifically, somebody like

rudy giuliani to help him in this moment? >> he likes people who are public attack dogs. it's the same psychology of why he had someone like michael cohen in his orbit for a long time. these are people who will go on television and defend the president to the end. maybe things are not necessarily true or fully accurate but they will be aggressive and they will punch when donald trump needs to be punching or feels he needs to be punching. i think that's what we see with both of these men, actually, with a lot of men in his orbit. that's why he brought rudy in and that's why he kept michael around for so long. >> david, robert costa "the washington post" was tweeting out about a graempbs -- grievance. i was asking michael about the shared grievances the sense of grievance they both share. anybody who experienced giuliani as mayor knows he is that kind of person. white house aides are bewilders by giuliani but many on staff now feel like they're not in control of the situation. aides say potus and giuliani are running their own strategy and have shared grievances and perspectives. you heard kelly o'donnell saying

only person briefing giuliani is donald trump. what shared grievances could they be talking about? >> well, both of them want to shut down and make sure that there is no real examination of donald trump's conduct. and this is something that's been an issue with giuliani. anybody who has read the book "grand delusion" knows a lot of what america thinks of rudy giuliani at 9/11 is absolute nonsense and myth making including the fact that his father was a robber in sing sing. analyst comments, rudy's comments on tv indicate that even though he's a lawyer and former u.s. attorney who successfully prosecuted a lot of serious gangsters, some of whom were in business with donald trump in various ways, he doesn't understand the constitution at a level he should or else he has no problem lying about it.

and you know, you mentioned that rudy wanted to be secretary of state. i'm frankly not sure he could pass the background test for a cabinet level appointment two words should make that clear. bernard kerik. >> yeah, absolutely. stay with me. i want to play donny deutsch on "morning joe" this morning talking about what giuliani knows from what he doesn't. take a listen. >> i spoke with michael cohen yesterday. he said giuliani doesn't know what he's talking about. he said there are two people that know exactly what happened, myself and the president. you'll be hearing my side of the story. and he was obviously very frustrated at what had come out yesterday. >> and david, how dangerous for donald trump if what does feel in a lot of ways like a break with michael con even if he has giuliani on his side? >> well, if cohen were to turn on trump and trump himself has raised this issue of flipping on him, he probably could be a very serious danger to him. the warrant that was issued had to come after so much solid evidence that the most anti-mueller investigation judge in the world had to approve that

warrant on the basis that it was issued. and one of the things to keep in mind here, there are two attack dog lawyers at work here beyond rudy guiliani. michael avenatti and michael cohen. the difference between them is one of them really knows what he's doing and has a track record of proving it in very tough litigation. and that's alvanatti. >> emily, you had giuliani also come out and say mueller better not come for ivanka. exhibiting loyalty to ivanka throwing jared under the bus. the comment about jared was the most revealing thing. his comment about ivanka was typical for the trump world. saying that men are all disposable referring to jared kushner not only sent shock waves through the white house but it was a statement that someone who had been preparing with the president for days for this interview would say something like that can?

it was reveal. il say in all of my reporting for the book one thing that has come up over and over again is if it to a point where the president may have to choose between himself and his son-in-law, there is no question that he will throw jared under the bus faster than you could say jared. >> wow. the plot thickens. >> david cay johnson and emily fox, thank you both. great to have you here. next, why the president spent part of his speech to the nra today praising paul manafort and the judge ruling over his case in the mueller probe. i'll tell you what happened in two minutes. than our name suggests. we're an organic tea company. a premium juice company. a coconut water company. we've got drinks for long days. for birthdays. for turning over new leaves. and we make them for every moment in every corner of the country. we are the coca-cola company, and we're proud to offer so much more.

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judge t.s. ellis who is really something very special i hear from many standpoints. he's a respected person, suggested the charges before the u.s. district court for the eastern district of virginia were just part of the mueller team's designs to pressure mr. manafort into giving up information on president donald trump or others in the campaign. i've been saying that for a long time.

it's a witch hunt. >> if you're wondering how closely donald trump is following the impending criminal trial of his one-time campaign chairman paul manafort, wonder no more. that was trump reading from a news report handed him just before his nra speech. during a hearing in the case today, a federal judge in virginia expressed skepticism whether special counsel mueller had the authority to bring charges against manafort that were not directly related to collusion. of course, trump loved that the jung was tough on the prosecutors. but the judge did not issue his ruling today whether any of those charges will be dismissed. the question is, what does today's hearing mean for the mueller probe. to help us answer that question and more, i'm joined by legal analyst jill wine-banks, form assistant watergate special prosecutor and harry sen dick in the criminal division for the southern district of new york. harry, i'm going to come to you first. tell me about this judge. donald trump seems to like him. >> judge ellis is a judge in the eastern district of virginia

right outside washington, d.c. on the bench for about 30 years. appointed by president reagan in the late 1980s. he had the johnny walker lindh case which achieved some notoriety in the years after. >> the american taliban case. >> exactly. the american taliban. he's had high profile cases. and when you are dealing with a judge on the bench as long as he has, it's not surprising they're very outspoken in their kind of gut level views about a case. and they as judge ellis did today, will not hesitate to share those views with the government. it doesn't necessarily tell you where he's coming out. >> okay. >> judges need to make it look good. they need to show they're fair. >> when you hear judge ellis say he believes that the special counsel is only interested in manafort to squeeze him for information "that would reflect on mr. trump or lead to his impeachment and when he gos on to say prosecutors wanted mr. manafort to, quote, sing, but

worried that manafort might also compose, that does not, as a form former prosecutor tell you, uh-oh, this guy is going to dismiss the case. >> if i were the prosecutor i would rather him not have said these things but i wouldn't necessarily jump to that conclusion. he has to base his decision on the law. and we already saw that a judge in the district of columbia expressed concern about there were very similar type of argument. we know that the regulations that we're talking about here all say right at the front these don't give individuals rights. they are meant to talk about how the department of justice divides up its work. so the worst case no for the government is that prosecutors in the eastern district of virginia bring there case against paul manafort. >> absolutely. go into that for a minute. jill, there are two different cases that manafort is facing, one in d.c. and one in the eastern district of virginia. why would there be two different judges looking at there case. >> there are two different cases because the crimes that he is charged with in the eastern district of virginia are based in virginia. for example, he files his tax

returns from his home in virginia. and he didn't report the income he got from his work in the ukraine. so he failed to pay federal taxes on that money. and that is a crime that occurred when he filed in virginia. so that's why that is there. and it can be prosecuted by the u.s. attorney for the eastern district of virginia or it can be prosecuted by the special counsel depending on how the jurisdictional statement is written. and i am pretty sure that mr. mueller would not have brought those charges if they weren't within what he had been assigned by mr. rosenstein. but it won't help mr. manafort if for some reason the judge decides that mueller cannot charge him with these crimes. then the eastern district can. crimes have been committed, the grand jury found enough evidence to say he should stand trial and he should stand trial. >> and jill, are judges allowed to consider the likelihood that

charges will lead to potential impeachment in a case like this? >> absolutely not. this is a charge of a criminal act in the state of virginia that violates federal law. and that's all he should be looking at. it is outrageous he is questioning the motive of prosecutors. he should be looking at whether there is a crime which there seems to be clear evidence of. once the grand jury indicts, i once had a case where i questioned whether the evidence was strong enough. and i conferred with my boss who was one of the best lawyers i've ever known, chuck rough, and he said it's not for you to make this judgment. the grand jury found enough evidence. you have to present it to the court. and that's what i did. and that's what has to happen here. >> let me come to you on there. we have, harry, a piece of news just coming from "the wall street journal." i'll read a little bit of it. this is "the wall street journal" reporting tonight, michael cohen, president donald

trump's personal lawyer, gained access to as much as $774,000 through two financial transactions through the -- during the 2016 presidential campaign as you saw the to the fix problems for his boss. those could factor into a broad investigation of mr. cohen's business affairs being conducted by manhattan federal prosecutors at the fbi hob are examininging whether mr. cohen violated any laws in his efforts to raise cash and can conceal negative information about mr. trump including transactions tied to his credit line and taxi medallions. how does this complicate the case? if he gained access to these funds but he's saying the source of the $130,000 hush money to stormy daniels was a home equity line of credit, as a former prosecutor, what does this say to you? >> it's very disturbing because if you say false things in order to get a bank loan, that is a violation of law. and you're not supposed to do that. and what is he doing with the $700,000 just sort of floating around? did he get questions by financial institutions?

did he answer truthfully? when the search warrant litigation was proceeding, there were all of these black boxes in the government's pages that were redacted. and through stories like this it seems like we're getting a sense as to the seriousness of that investigation. the southern district is composed of people who are relentless investigators and they will track down every lead. this sounds like a lead that they're definitely going to track down. >> absolutely. last one to you, jill. if mike cohen gained access to a sum of money that could be used in theory maybe to do some of these reimbursements, what does it say to you that rudy guiliani is saying donald trump paid him back? why would he need to pay him back if cohen had access to money with which to make these kinds of payments? >> the important thing is that the president and rudy guiliani need to get their story straight. they need to be telling the truth. they need to be speaking facts. and clearly, rudy and the president have not agreed on what the facts are here.

there's no question that we don't know yet, did the president pay him back? how many women were paid off? how many other people with negative information were paid off? $700,000 goes a long way to paying a lot of people. and so there's just a lot of questions about it. harry is right about all the potential banking crimes that could have been committed by false statements to the bank. as well as to the public. >> those would have been in new york. d.c. and virginia already dealing with this case. hello, new york. jill and harry, thank you both very much. have a good night. >> thank you. still ahead, will a newly emboldened trump be more open to sitting down for an interview with robert mueller? what the president said today after this. but as it grew bigger and bigger, it took a whole lot more. that's why i switched to the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on everything i buy. everything. and that 2% cash back adds up

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we have breaking news tonight from the "wall street journal." "the wall street journal" reporting michael cohen had access to as much as $774,000 in lines of credit through two financial transactions during the 2016 presidential campaign. in february of 2016, mr. cohen nearly doubled the amount he could use on a bank credit line tied to his manhattan apartment increasing his ability to borrow by $245,000. three months earlier according to "the wall street journal," he gains access to another $529,000 through a new mortgage he and his wife co-signed on a condo owned by her parents in trump world tower in new york. according to real estate records. i want to bring in my panel, asawin suebsaeng, natasha bertrand, and ret know nat toe mariotti.

renato, i'll come to you first for your reaction. it appears in two transactions one cosigned by his wife michael cohen was taking out a lot of credit before the campaign. >> it's interesting. why does cohen suddenly need access to all this cash? it certainly suggests that there may be more transactions that we don't know about, but that the federal prosecutors in new york do know about. obviously they're investigating michael cohen for, you know, transactions in addition to the stormy daniels transaction we already know about. why would he need access to $700,000 for $130,000 transaction? and i think the other question really is, joy, why is cohen the one making these transactions out of his personal accounts? if he represents a billionaire, why isn't the billionaire putting the money in himself? it's very odd. i represent a lot of companies and people. i don't use my personal funds to fund their settlements.

frankly the rules of professional conduct would prevent me from doing so. >> that is a very good point. rudy giuliani was making it sound like when he was on fox news like this was part of a normal process of a retainer, in the course of a retainer, this is the thing he did as donald trump's attorney. but we're now hearing a lot of heaven different things. he's using his own money to do these payments to at least one woman, stormy daniels but rudy guiliani is saying no, he was reimbursed. the story is convoluted. >> it's almost like donald trump knew the types of things had he hired michael cohen to fix for him, things like perhaps women coming forward alleging that he had assaulted them or that he had affairs with them while married. and he was trying to maintain a distance between himself and any knowledge of what these payments were for in case of a situation like this in which he would be questioned about what he did know and when. of course, this is going to be really important for the special counsel because he, of course, is wondering what else did the president pay michael cohen for? did he perhaps pay russian

hackers to keep things quiet during the election? things that were alleged in the dossier, for example. this is all part of a pattern. it's going to be really important as part of the federal investigation. >> absolutely. i asked kelly o'donnell, our nbc washington correspondent, who was involved in briefing rudy giuliani before he went on this media blitz when, in theory, he's supposed to be throwing cold water on the idea there was a nefarious motive behind. the payment to daniels. he raised more questions by making it pretty clear that trump knew about the transactions. in the white house, is there a concern that giuliani and trump are doing their own thing and that maybe donald trump is telling rudy guiliani everything and rudy guiliani is telling that to "fox & friends"? >> well, just to give you an example of how much senior staffers in the trump white house were kept completely in the dark on this until the moment it actually happened on

sean hannity's show wednesday evening, there were at least two white house officials who were messaging me as the episode was going on, one of whom very bluntly asked, is he supposed to be doing this? there were so many people at the senior ranks kept in the dark that they were genuinely surprised and caught off guard that rudy was going out there and saying all these things. they didn't know if it was sanctioned by the president at the time. we quickly found out afterwards that it was. but this is a bit of a fly by the seat of your pants legal strategy that oftentimes keeps people including don mcgahn and emmet flood out of the loop. and it begs the question, is that the wisest legal strategy for a president of the united states who is in such a legal multifaceted mine field. >> let's ask the former prosecutor, renato, how dangerous is this strategy? is it the case anything rudy guiliani says publicly on television binds his client?

>> you know, it is a very dangerous strategy. i'll tell you, when i handle sort of routine investigations that aren't on the front pages of the newspaper or aren't discussed on national television, you know, when we take any public action or make any statement, we carefully discuss it. everyone on the team is part of it. the client and everyone on the legal team, very carefully vets those statements. so the idea that you would have statements that are just being made off the cuff that not everyone on the team knows about is shocking and reflects a disarray in their team. >> absolutely. we have here, natasha a couple of new pieces of information. cnbc reporting mueller is focusing on roger stone and rick gates, stone being a long-time crony of donald trump focusing on alleged interactions between rick gates and political operative roger stone. the new developments indicate they're interested in stone beyond his interactions with julian assange of wikileaks.

too, victor vecklesburg has also been questioned by mueller's investigations, no indications suspecting him of wrong doing but he attended the inauguration. interest in him suggests the special counsel is focused on potential russian oligarchs transactions with trump. under those circumstances, is team trump willing to let all of these people talk to mueller but not donald trump talk to mueller. >> at this point it's more of a pr strategy and less of a legal strategy. he's banking if he can go out and rudy guiliani can go out on national television and undermine the investigation as much as possible and says there's no way donald trump is going to sit for an interview without these parameters, it's going to last two hours, max, he can't ask about this, they'll get the american people on their side. if mueller asks trump about his business ties to russian or anything in the past, they'll be able to say this was not a legitimate investigation. they've been building up to this point for months and months. now they think because they have the american people on their side which is not necessarily true, i think most americans

want this investigation to conclude and they want trump to sit down for an interview, they believe this gives them upper hand. of course, now that we know that robert mueller is still focusing on the collusion angle, that's another talking point that's emerged from the right, he's no longer focusing on collusion, it's all about obstruction, that is not true. collusion has been the number one priority of robert mueller. that was why he was hired in the first place to investigate potential collusion between the trump campaign and russia. obstruction came out of that because the president fired his fbi director. >> yes, indeed. then there's the question of whether he can be compelled to testify or if he doesn't want to do it. asawan suebsaeng, natasha thanks so much. >> the president fawns over the nra. months after saying he wasn't afraid to take them on. his speech to the trump base is ahead. plus, the political ad you have to see to believe. in tonight's thing 1, thing 2 next. this is frank's dog.

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thing 1 tonight, coal baron and convicted felon, don blankenship, who spent a year in prison for his role in a 2010 mine explosion that killed 29 people and who is still on probation has been trying to get republican votes in the west virginia senate primary by going after his own party's senate leader mitch mcconnell. nicknaming him cocaine mitch and referring to mcconnell's father-in-law as a "china person." >> i'm an american person. i don't see this insinuation by the press that there's something racist about saying a china person. some people are korean persons and some of them are african persons. it's not any slander there. >> oh, but he wasn't done there. behold blakenship's new campaign ad. >> swamp captain mitch mcconnell has created millions of jobs for china people. while doing so, he has gotten rich. his china family has given him tens of millions of dollars mitch's swamp people are now

running false negative ads against me. they are also childishly calling me mentally ill. war to drain the swamp and create jobs for west virginia people has begun. i will beat joe man chin and ditch cocaine mitch for the sake of the kids. >> it's for the kids. and for the sake of the kids, don blackenship has a new defense against charges of racism. that's thing 2 in 60 seconds. discover card.t you ifr social security alerts. oh! we'll alert you if we find your social security number on any one of thousands of risky sites, so you'll be in the know.

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just over two months ago after meeting with parkland survivors donald trump talked tough about the nra. today he gave the keynote address at the nra convention. >> so let's talk about guns, shall we? i love you too. thank you. [ applause ] your second amendment rights are under siege, but they will never, ever be under siege as long as i'm your president. mental health. mental health is a big one. they don't like to talk about mental health. mental health. we want armed guards. we strongly believe in allowing highly trained teachers to carry concealed weapons. they said, you know, going to the nra convention and speaking

today, that will be very controversial. it might not be popular. you know what i said? bye-bye. got to get on the plane. >> to talk about that prime red meat the president threw to his base today, i'm joint by sarah rumph, contributor to the conservative website red state. jane coaston, reporter at vox. and evan mcmullin, former 2016 independent presidential candidate. i want to come to you first, evan. this is donald trump saying one more sound bite. most of it's his usual i won the electoral college, et cetera, et cetera, but he did talk a little bit about guns. and here's donald trump talking about gun-free zones. >> tragically, as we've seen, there's no sign more inviting to a mass killer than a sign that declares "this school is a gun-free zone." come in and take us. >> of course he was speaking at a gun-free zone because there was no guns allowed because the president of the united states is there and deep him saying you

can't have guns in that nra convention. that was i little ironic. but those talking points you just heard streamed off by donald trump do they still working on republican voters? without barack obama there and the fear of the black helicopters coming to seize their weapons, does that kind of talk still work? >> i think among some voters that fear is still there. it wasn't only driven by barack obama's presidency. and certainly the president continues to stoke it. even in the speech he said our gun rights, or whatever he said, are under siege, and then he went on to say but they won't be under siege as long as i'm president. clearly there are times when allowing guns into situations is inappropriate and the president and his presence at the nra convention illustrated that. he continues to push i think a ridiculous idea about arming teachers in schools. i'm supportive of armed guards at schools in addition to other reforms. but the idea that we would depend on teachers, even if you give them a lot of training, is i think ridiculous. and they're there to teach and nurture the kids.

they don't need to be packing heat while they do it. >> and you know, sarah, the nra was very successful, even if it wasn't just about obama, president obama, in stoking this fear that people needed to buy more guns, stockpile guns, that president obama was coming for their guns, the same thing was done when bill clinton was president. we've seen a marked decline in the profitability of gun manufacturers who -- you know, they bought up a lot of inventory thinking that hillary clinton would win. without fearing the president of the united states, how does donald trump and the nra manage to keep primary gun voters in enough state of intensity to make sure they come out in the mid-terms? >> well, the reality is there are still democratic politicians and candidates who are talking about things that second amendment supporters are very much against. i would ask people to think about there's a very interesting

plot line in the black panther movie, and i'll try not to spoil it for the three people who haven't seen it, but they talk about how if they could take the wakandan technology and weapons and give it to oppressed people around the world that would help them throw off their colonizer and oppressors. the idea that weapons give people an insurance policy against oppression is something that is very near and dear to the heart of second amendment supporters like nra members. now, i know a lot of nra members, a lot of gun owners. i don't know any of them that are talking about overthrowing the united states government. but still the idea that you have the ability to protect yourself is a real concern. and on a more micro level the idea that as a woman, even a teenage boy is physically stronger than i am. but if i have a gun i have a second amendment right to defend myself, now i'm on parity with an attacker. and that's something that people are concerned about. >> let me go to you, miss jaime colson. because of course wakanda forever.

love the movie. but i'm not sure that people fear a wakanda style -- i'm not sure what that means. but there is this sort of sense of siege that has driven gun sales and driven people who vote on this basis as their primary issue. that sense of siege, can it possibly survive a president who is 100% on their side, who's pandering to this audience, who's showing up with the vice president at their conventions? >> well, it's especially interesting because you'll notice that throughout the convention, i'm glad you played those clips, because he didn't talk about a lot of actual gun issues. he didn't talk about concealed weapon reciprocity, going across states, and he didn't talk about issues that are extremely important to actual gun owners, including gun owners who are people of color, which is a rising number of black women and black americans who are buying guns. so i think that siege mentality, it's really interesting because a lot of times, you know, the nra is one of the biggest defenders of second amendment rights but then you see time and

time again that when african-americans, we think about philando castile and some recent cases i've been covering, you think about how when they have guns it's a little best a different story. that siege mentality doesn't seem to work for all americans. >> and to that point, sarah, a lot of what nra tv has been doing is stoking fears against new groups of people to be afraid of, the liberals, the media, and people of color feels like that's the new obama and clinton. >> you know, i don't belong to the nra and i don't work for the nra. i have expressed before some concerns about their messaging strategy. i do think that some of the discussion they've had recently, you know, again, with some of the discussion about if you have a -- if you are a lawful gun owner then you have the ability to protect your family, that's absolutely a vital discussion. you know, whether -- who you're targeting as far as what you're supposed to be afraid of, you know, that's something that you have to -- you do have to be careful in how you message that. >> sure.

evan, the new threat really is economic. you have david hogg who is a leader of the never again movement from parkland tweeted out today "florida retirement system pension fund holds shares valued at $520,000 in american outdoor brands company formerly known as smith & wesson which is known as the ar-15." you're seeing economic boycotts tied to the gun industry. really the threat to the industry now is economic because especially young people are not in their camp. electorally i'm not sure how they can message to people like david hogg. >> i think this movement that david hogg and others are leading is going to have an impact on the mid-terms. some of these students aren't old enough to vote themselves but i think their parents and other voting age people are seeing this, seeing this energy, and i sort of -- i view it as in part in a similar way that i view the women's movement where you have these different movements that are civic movements that are gaining a lot of force. republicans aren't providing answers. and that's going to have an impact on the mid-terms.

as far as their strategy i still think they should propose solutions, which they have. policy changes. and go after policy makers. i think going after the economics can be effective too. but they've got to turn it back to the policy makers. >> sarah rumph, thank you very much. jane coaston, evan mcmullin, thank you for joining us. that is "all in" for this evening. you can catch me again tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern, the joy reid show. "the rachel maddow show" starts now. right at 9:00. boom. >> on the dot. from the hardest-working and most precise woman in the business. >> thank you very much. >> thank you, joy. appreciate it. and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. happy friday. earlier this week the deputy attorney general of the united states rod rosenstein made headlines when he gave a talk in d.c. and after his talk he answered questions from reporters. a cnn reporter named laura jarrett asked mr. rosenstein about republicans in congress coming after him and trying to gin up support for impeaching him and removing him from office. and in response to that question rosenstein gave the strongest public comments he has yet made