july. celebrating our independence and our continuing freedom and the first amendment, if you will. follow us online, on facebook and twitter, @mitchellreports. craig melvin is here. happy fourth of july, craig. >> sounds like someone's not working on the fourth. >> so unds right. >> my friend. good afternoon to you. craig melvin in new york city. admissions test. the trump administration ready to overturn another obama era initiative. guidelines on how to consider the race of a student applying to get into college. part of a conservative campaign against affirmative action that a new supreme court justice could have a major impact on. also, desperate rescue. crews working to try and free those 12 boys and their soccer coach, trapped in a thailand cave. the complicated mission that could leave them in that cave for three or four months before they are free. and protesting pruitt. a woman insisting the embattled

epa administer resign interrupts his dinner. two of his aides are reportedly telling investigators about some of his most controversial decisions so far. we'll get to those. but we start with the trump administration planned roll back of affirmative action in higher education. the administration is prepared to abandon an obama era policy that called on universities to consider race as an admissions factor. attorney jeff sessions last fall called on the justice department to re-evaluate the policies that he believed acted beyond the law and the constitution. the decision coming as the president is just days away from appointing a new supreme court justice who would replace anthony kennedy, a swing vote on affirmative action issues. here with more, nbc news chief education correspondent rehema ellis, msnbc legal analyst daniel cecellok.

let me start with you, rehema, because i know you got off the phone with the architect of the obama administration policy. first thing you said the law hasn't changed regarding affi affirmative action. these were policies, guidelines for schools, colleges and universities, by which they could use to help them as they attempted to implement whatever policies that they had that might make it possible to include more students of color, minority students, into the universities. that this, now, basically, according to the person i spoke with in the obama administration, she saw it as a way of just undoing another obama administration guideline and policy. and that it will be up to colleges and universities to really make any impact. and what was said to me, that the law hasn't changed, and that the supreme court, danny can help me with this, on two different occasions recently in the last five years, 2013, the

supreme court affirmed that colleges and universities do have the right to use race in determining as one factor if you will in determines whether or not a student might be admitted. to your point about the importance of the supreme court nomination, that may be something people want to consider. also, let me mention very quickly, that this comes on the heels after asian-american students at harvard university have filed a lawsuit claiming that race has been used against them in terms of their admissions to schools. >> a case that could find its way in front of the supreme court. danny cevellos, based on what i read so far, doesn't sound like there's anything in the policy that could compel colleges and universities to change the way that they admit students, is that right? >> right, not necessarily, but i would say the supreme court over the last decades has upheld affirmative action programs. when it has, it has expressed increasing skepticism about them. starting with gruter, fisher. the 2016 case of fisher

reaffirmed that the universities could use -- gruter v. bollinger. there's what we call fisher one and fisher two. the most recent was in 2016. the magic words in there were kennedy's grins saying these policies must be measurable. a court can decide whether or not they were fair or unfair or constitutional or unconstitutional. so that is a challenge to universities going forward. if you decide to use race as a factor, you must do so in a way that you will come by later on, examine it and decide if it was right or wrong. >> what do we know about the timing here? do we know a whole lot about the timing? why now? >> well, i mean, this is obviously coming at a moment when conservatives view -- they say a real opportunity to sleep away the last bits of affirmative action from the educational process. and i think if -- what you're hearing right now, if that sounds confusing, how are we

supposed to, as a college admissions counselor, admissions records, how are we supposed to consider race? if that sounds confusing, it's because it is. what the obama administration was trying to do is really basically trying to thread the needle and say here's kind of how you could think about race when it comes to admissions and offered a bunch of hypotheticals and said maybe you could do this or do that. effectively with the trump administration is doing is saying look, we're just going to get rid of that and by getting rid of that guidance, it's not a -- it doesn't have the force of law. but it basically tells schools that if you want to be on the right side of the department of justice and you don't want a justice department lawsuit, you know, to hue as closely as possible to doj guidelines. they don't have the force of law but they carry a big stick. >> i want to read these comments from the doj. again, this is from your article, actually, matt. the switch branch cannot

circumvent congress or the courts by creating guidance that goes beyond the law. and in some instances, stays on the books for decades. that's from the spokesman for the justice department. danny, based on that statement, what can we glean from that? what is he saying? >> it's so interesting because he brings me back to something we talked about when gorsuch was confirmed. the expansion of the administrative state. the excess of power that the executive branch might attempt to take by issuing executive orders that exceed the law. they cannot exceed the existing law if they are just guidance. the supreme court's case law in this area is going to remain until it comes before the supreme court again and now that we have a new supreme court, that could be a completely different outcome if affirmative action comes before it again. ultimately, it is the high court and not necessarily the justice department or the department of education guidelines that will be more significant in the coming years. >> rehema, to be clear, though,

this is a policy that would undo an obama era policy that undid a george w. bush era policy, correct? >> i think so. the point being, according to the obama administration folks, they're saying what they wanted to do was to give colleges and universities tools and resources that they could impose what they think is a vital interest to the university and that is establishing diversity. that diversity which is reflective of the society that we live in. that according to the obama administration. so they can be in compliance with the law. this is not about trying to get them to circumvent the law but to be in compliance with it. and now those guidelines and policies apparently are going to be rolled back. >> hey, matt -- go ahead, matt. >> i was going to add, so before the obama administration, we had the bush administration's policies. and why the obama administration stated we see a real educational value in having a diverse

student body and wanted to, you know, help colleges achieve that goal, what the bush administration said was just don't consider race. like just leave race out of it. don't make your admissions decisions based on race. and that was the stated policy in 2008. and then when the obama administration changed it, that policy got effectively wiped away and it was removed from the website. what's really interesting is for right now the trump administration has not fully restored the bush administration policy but it very quietly reappeared on the website, the department of education website in the last two days, with no fanfare. so it's now back on the website. it is not official policy, but it's there for colleges to look at. it says don't consider race at all when you are considering who to bring to check. >> and this is consistent with supreme court precedent, going b back to 2003 where the supreme court essentially said you can't

take a pile of applicants and divide them. you can't use race as the primary factor. but you can use it as a factor. like this person was in the marching band. this person is african-american. so the supreme court has been chipping away at the notion of using race for a while. although it has upheld these policies. i can't stress enough it has expressed criticism not once but over decades now. >> matt, how much of this is about the administration launching yet another culture war? culture war perhaps may be too strong, matt, but how much of this is about starting another conversation in this country about race? >> it's certainly about having a fresh conversation on affirmative action. now, remember, when you say have a conversation about race, it gets complicated because what you talked about the asian students suing harvard.

they're saying harvard has dis -- harvard has policies that ultimately are discriminatory to asians. if you just went by test scores or quantitative scoring, more asian and more asian-american students should be getting admitted. so it's not so clean as to say it's a discussion about race, but it's absolutely a discussion about affirmative action, that this administration has been skeptical about. the supreme court has been skeptical about. and i think as we're hearing today this is one step, but i think ultimately what's going to happen is there are cases that are making their way through the appeals courts that are going to land before the supreme court and if, you know, the trend continues, the court's going to take an ever more skeptical or narrow view on this. >> rehema, last question, practical effect. if five years from now the supreme court and the administration has managed to roll back afirmtive action as we've noted for the past 25 years, what would our colleges and universities look like?

>> some may argue they may not look that different. there's still a very difficult policy to get students of color in so many of the most prestigious ivy league school also in the country. they're not awash in minority students by no means. so some may say whatever policies that had been existing to try and increase enrollment in those schools, they've only succeeded in a minor degree, if you will. but this has given, as was mentioned, aid, if you will, to those who want to continue to roll back these policies. well, you did look at race as a factor. some people saying to me today to try to right decades, generations of discrimination. specifically using race to keep minority students out of schools. >> danny, thank you. rehema ellis, thank you. our chief education correspondent. matt apuso, thank you, sir. supreme court casting call. we are days away from a decision

that could change the court and our culture for a generation. the front-runners for the job and an early look at what voters say they want to see from their lawmakers who are going to be voting here. also, a boy's soccer team trapped in a thailand cave for nine days. and now it could take three or four months to get them out. how they'll survive. this is your wake-up call. if you have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking on irreversible joint damage. ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion. humira can help stop the clock. prescribed for 15 years, humira targets and blocks a source of inflammation that contributes to joint pain and irreversible damage. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure.

before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. help stop the clock on further irreversible joint damage. talk to your rheumatologist. right here. right now. humira. >> i'm alex trebek. if you're age 50 to 85, please listen carefully. the lock i want to talk to you about isn't the one on your door. it's a rate lock for your life insurance that guarantees your rate can never go up at any time, for any reason. many policies don't have one but you can get a lifetime rate lock through the colonial penn program. this plan was designed for people on a fixed income with coverage options for just $9.95 a month. that's less than 35 cents a day. your rate is locked in for life

and coverage can never be cancelled. your acceptance is guaranteed. you cannot be turned down because of your health. call for your information kit and gift. both are free, with no obligation.

president trump just daysway

from a decision that could impact american life for decades to come. the president has set a self-imposed deadline of july 9th to nominate a supreme court justice to fill the seat of retiring anthony kennedy. the president talked with four candidates monday. nbc news justice correspondent pete williams is in washington for us this afternoon. pete, the president reportedly interviewing about seven potential candidates for justice kennedy's seat. is this a process that's moving any faster than it usually does? >> breathtaking speed, yes, absolutely. because normally the, this is a standing start here but obviously the white house thought that justice kennedy would likely retire at the end of this term. they've had this list of 25 judges, narrowing it down to five or six or possibly seven. so they've had this sort of engine idling in the garage ready to go. so they're able to -- i'm

radically messing my metaphors. but they're able to go here very quickly from 0 to 60. the real question is once they make the nomination, how soon will congress move. but yes, the whole process is going to be somewhat telescoped here. and i suppose that's partly, in fact, driven by the fact that justice kennedy says he wants to leave the court on july 31. if congress wants to have all nine justices on the bench by the first monday in october, they're going to have to get this done by then. >> hey, pete, word just coming down that -- this is coming from senator's spokesperson. apparently the utah senator was interviewed yesterday about the president. they're confirming that now. is mike lee considered a long shot? >> i would say so, yes. >> based on what? >> well, several factors. but i think -- and i guess this mike lee thing came out yesterday. but they have been pretty clear about the fact -- people

advising the president that they want someone who's been a judge. somebody who's been an appeals court judge. somebody with a clearly established judicial record. not to say they don't think mike lee is a perfectly wonderful guy, and a strong conservative whom they support very much. but the mantra throughout this whole process has been no more suitors. referencing david suitor who was lauded by conservatives and then frequently joined the liberals when he got on the supreme court. so they want someone with a clear judicial record. someone who's decided cases. that they can go back and look at. and that would seem to basically leave out any sitting senator. >> what do we know about the leading contenders? >> well, i think it's pretty clear that the two that are drawing the most attention from the white house are amy barrett and brett kavanaugh. barrett, a law professor at nd before president trump put her on the supreme court last year. kavanaugh was a ken starr

prosecut prosecutor. been on the d.c. court of appeals now, the longest serving of all the ones on the list. former kennedy clerk. also on the list is another former kennedy clerk, ray kethledge. they're all, by the way, in their late 40s, early 50s. that's important because the president has said, remember last week, he said, i want somebody who can serve for 40 or 45 years. so that would suggest they can't be in their late 50s or 60s and still be considered likely nominees. >> our justice correspondent pete williams. thank you. betsy woodruff, politics reporter at the daily beast, also an msnbc contributor. betsy, nbcnews.com reporting six women are among the 25 possible nominees that the president has publicly named already. and based on what we just heard there from pete, one of the two at the top of the list is a woman.

if the president does choose a woman, chosen and confirmed, she will become the fifth woman in history to serve on the court. the fourth among the current lineup of justices. justice ginsburg, justice sotomayor. all of whom were appointed by democratic presidents. if the president does name a woman, betsy, would that ease concerns from democrats? what do we know about the women that the president may be considering? >> i think it's unlikely that democrats would roll back their concerns about the potential for overturning roe v. wade just because a woman were nominated. in particular, amy connie barrett, who's one of the top contenders to be the president's pick to be a supreme court justice, is known as very conservative. she would be viewed by democrats as an automatic vote against roe v. wade. she's telegraphed socially conservative positions on some of these complex legal matters. she's a conservative catholic, something senator feinstein brought up in her court of appeals confirmation.

finestein drew a lot of criticism for bringing barrett's faith into the conversation. but that is something democrats are likely to be looking at. i think it's unlikely democrats would be willing to move just because the president were to appoint a woman like barrett. that said, the big question here is where republicans actually come down. there's a possibility that murkowski of alaska and collins of maine, two republican women senators who support abortion rights could potentially oppose someone who they saw as too conservative on that issue. so it's not just about democrats. the president also had to worry about shoring up his right flank with whoever he picks. >> how much of an issue, sirmichael do we surmise this is going to be in the midterm electionings? how much is the president's pick for the supreme court going to drive? either democrats or republicans to the polls in november? >> i actually, craig, think it's going to drive folks on both sides. i think democrats are going to have a strong message if they're smart to convey and get women out to say look, you're right to choose, if you will, is at

stake, if the president is able to nominate an extremely conservative judge. on the other hand, i think conservatives are going to say look we have an opportunity here to turn back the tides, if you will, something a lot of conservatives argue was a mistake that occurred back in '73. i think it's going to be very interesting to see how both sides address this issue moving forward ahead of the midterm elections. >> with justice kennedy's retirlt, that still leaves one justice in her 80s. justice ginsburg, 85, if i'm not mistaken. you've got two in their 70s. this conceivably leaves the possibility that president trump may have yet more court seat to fill. in his first term. it's a possibility. unless there's a turnover in congress this november, this could leave the republican party with a firm hand on all three branchs of government. could we see the political cloud of democrats reduced even more? >> well, look, i think so, when you start talking about changing

or nominating the supreme court justice, you're essentially talking about changing the laws, if you will, for the country, at least for the next two decades, right. for many conservatives who have believed that conservatives have lost a quote/unquote culture war for the past 20 or 25 years, this is a fundamentally important thing for them, because they see this as the opportunity to finally bring back the country to a more right of center position where many of them believe, if you will, the founders intended it to be whether that's right or wrong. >> here's the thing, betsy. i said this last week. do you get the sense, betsy, that democrats understand that they didn't perhaps value the supreme court? like it's not really been a driving force for democrats to get voters to the polls. do you get the sense they understand that now? >> i think it's a really good point. the questions about the federal judiciary have always animated the republican base in an extraordinary way for decades. social conservative leaders have

zeroed in on the courts. evangelical voters who were concerned about his personal background, concerned about his record, figured out or assessed that he would appoint conservatives to the supreme court. however, at the same time, democrats haven't made it a central defining issue for their base. but i think that's changing. i think a big part of the reason is because of the ruling that came out, just in the past few weeks, and that ruling took something of a sledgehammer to public sector unions and make it so public sector unions can't automatically collect dues from their members paychecks. what that means is the democratic organizing mechanism, which relies in large part on support from these unions, is going to see some of their coffer pos potentially become smaller. it will affect their ability to spend the money to get out the vote. very much the decisions the supreme court makes and has made very much have an impact on the on the ground grassroots organizing efforts of democrats. i think this ruling is likely to

be particularly galvanizing for democratic grassroots activates. >> betsy woodruff, thank you. sirmichael singleton, thank you. trapped in a cave. 12 boys and their soccer coach found alive after nine days. but now it could take months to rescue them. the medical help that they are trying to get to those boys right now. jardiance asked: when it comes to managing your type 2 diabetes, what matters to you? you got a1c, heart, diet, and exercise. slide 'em up or slide 'em down. so let's see. for most of you, it's lower a1c. but only a few of you are thinking about your heart. fact is, even though it helps to manage a1c, type 2 diabetes still increases your risk of a fatal heart attack or stroke. jardiance is the only type 2 diabetes pill with a lifesaving cardiovascular benefit for adults who have type 2 diabetes and heart disease,

significantly reducing the risk of dying from a cardiovascular event and lowering a1c, along with diet and exercise. this really changes things. jardiance can cause serious side effects including dehydration. this may cause you to feel dizzy, faint, or lightheaded, or weak upon standing. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may be fatal. symptoms include nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, tiredness, and trouble breathing. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of ketoacidosis or an allergic reaction. symptoms of an allergic reaction include rash, swelling, and difficulty breathing or swallowing. do not take jardiance if you are on dialysis or have severe kidney problems. other side effects are sudden kidney problems, genital yeast infections, increased bad cholesterol, and urinary tract infections, which may be serious. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you have any medical conditions. man: ask your doctor about jardiance and get to the heart of what matters.

and incredible rescue mission is under way right now in the far reaches of northern thailand to save a dozen children and their soccer coach. they were all found together on monday jacht after nine days of the serving inside a flooded cave complex. cave experts, divers, first responders, from literally all over the world, are now trying to figure out how to get them out. some of the kids don't know how to swim. the best option so far, diving them, diving them out through waterfilled tunnels and chambers. rescuers are taking in food, fresh water, medicine. that's because experts say it could take up to three or four

months to get them out because of the caves narrow passages. and the threat of rising water. for more on the logistical and medical challenges rescuers are up against right now, i'm joined by gary shindle, president of the society that's an organization that explores and studies caves. i'm also joined by dr. john torres, medical correspondent for nbc news. gary, let me start with you there, because this is a -- as i understand it, a seven-mile-long cave complexion. the group is about a mile deep, three miles from the entrance of this cave. no visibility. rescuers could potentially face rising waters in the coming hours and days. how do they go about navigating this, gary? >> well, there are two components, appears to be two components to the cave. there's the air filled component which you can walk through or crawl through. then of course there's the area of the cave that's now been flooded and is under water. and that requires some extremely

specialized skills to be able to negotiate. they have brought in some of the best cave divers in the world. and they have dove in incredibly difficult conditions. and they -- my understanding is there are what are called four sumps which are locations where the cave passage is filled with water, and there are four of those they have to dive through. some of those require that they take off their diving equipment and push through. so this is extremely technical diving. very few people in the world are capable of doing it. there's no visibility or very limited visibility, and you have to follow a dive line and, again, the conditions are not good. >> what can rescuers do if the water levels do, in fact, rise? >> well, you know, there are a couple of options it appears from the information we have, and that is that you can basically manage their situation by leaving them in place and waiting for the waters to basically decline naturally at

the end of the monsoons. as you noted, it's maybe a multimonth long event. one of the concerns is that if you're at the beginning of the monsoon and the rains will become more intense and larger than the water levels in the cave could rise more, which may make diving into where the kids are more difficult. >> doctor, the boys and the coach, as we understand it, they were found in mostly stable condition. when you consider air pressure i would imagine inside that cave, other conditions i would imagine inside that cave, the likelihood that that stable condition can be sustained? >> not only sustained but what they've done over the last nine days is going to have a big impact on their health. you can imagine, they've been mostly in the dark for these nine days, not knowing if somebody is going to rescue them, in an environment that's extremely moist. a lot of health conditions can go on. they can start getting these conditions that settle in their lungs because there's mold all

over the cave. even a small nick or scrape to the skin can turn into an infection. they have help so they can get the anti-buy ybiotics for that. you can only imagine their mental state and realizing what they have to go through to get out of there. >> what about eating? i imagine they're weak from nine days without eating, eight days without eating. how might that affect them? >> they're going to be weak and they need to be strengthened up, especially before their go through the journey of trying to get out of the cave, whether they're walking, floating or diving through the thing. the rescuers, they did a smart thing, they started them off very slowly with food. they haven't had food for nine days. they need to make sure they don't just give them a large meal because their body will reject that. it is a race against time here. they have to be basically playing both odds here, getting them as healthy as they can. >> gary, forgive my ignorance on this, but drilling, why wouldn't drilling be a legitimate option

for these rescuers? >> well, it is a possible. i'm sure they're considering it. the thai government seems to have really thrown basically every available resource in the country on it. and a lot of international specialists. however, the area above the cave -- there are a couple issues. one is you have to figure out where the cave passage is. there are ways to technically do that using what's called a cave radio. i'm sure they've probably got one in the area now. the other thing you have to get a drill rig into position and looking at the terrain above the cave, that might not be feasible. so it's a very difficult thing to drill into a cave. >> gary, we'll be relying on you here in the next week or so as the story continues to develop. thank you for your expertise, dr. john, thanks. scott pruitt interrupted at dinner, a protester stopped his meal to deliver a bold message. also, two of his top aides reportedly just walked congressional investigators through some of his biggest

controversies so far. and oprah, addressing those rumors about a possible run for the white house yet again. why now she says running in 2020 will literally kill her. from farm, to pot, to jar, to table. and serve with confidence that it's safe. this is a diamond you can follow from mine to finger, and trust it never fell into the wrong hands. ♪ ♪ this is a shipment transferred two hundred times, transparently tracked from port to port. this is the ibm blockchain, built for smarter business. built to run on the ibm cloud.

this is the ibm blockchain, built for smarter business. there's nothing more important than your health. so if you're on medicare or will be soon, you may want more than parts a and b here's why. medicare only covers about 80% of your part b medical expenses. the rest is up to you. you might want to consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. like any medicare supplement insurance plan, these help pick up some of what medicare doesn't pay. and, these plans let you choose any doctor or hospital that accepts medicare patients. you could stay with the doctor or specialist you trust... or go with someone new. you're not stuck in a network...

because there aren't any. so don't wait. call now to request your free decision guide and find the aarp medicare supplement plan that works for you. there's a range to choose from, depending on your needs and your budget. rates are competitive. and they're the only plans of their kind endorsed by aarp. like any of these types of plans, they let you apply whenever you want. there's no enrollment window... no waiting to apply. so call now. remember, medicare supplement plans help cover some of what medicare doesn't pay. you'll be able to choose any doctor or hospital that accepts medicare patients. whether you're on medicare now or turning 65 soon, it's a good time to get your ducks in a row.

duck: quack! call to request your free decision guide now. because the time to think about tomorrow is today. another trump cabinet member has been confronted at a restaurant. this time, a mother carrying her toddler called out embattled epa chief scott pruitt yesterday, calling on him to step down. take a look. >> hi, i just wanted to urge you

to resign, because what you're to the environment in our country. this is my son. he loves animals. he loves clean air. he loves clean water. we deserve to have somebody at the epa who actually does protect our environment. somebody who believes in climate change. who takes seriously to the benefit of all of us, including our children. i would urge you to resign before your scandals push you out. >> the school teacher kristin says pruitt did not respond and left the restaurant. the incident comes as "the washington post" reports two of pruitt's top aides provided new details to congressional investigators on some of his most controversial spending and management decisions. reminder here for those of you who have not been keeping track at home there are now at least 15 ongoing investigations into the epa heads questionable behavior. those 15, by the way, some internal, some external. but 15 total. the former white house chief of

staff for president clinton, currently he is chairman of mcclarty associates, always good to see you, sir. >> craig, my pleasure. >> so seeking a $200,000 job salary for his wife, and help in the job search as well. at one point apparently asking staffers to put hotel reservations on their personal credit cards. there are also reports that pruitt and his aides maintain secret calendars in order to prevent controversial meetings or calls from getting out to the public. with the testimony now on the record from these former aides, are the walls starting to close in on scott pruitt? >> well, they may be, craig. it's the old adage where there's smoke, there may be fire. allegations are allegations. you went through the litany and the introduction. we've had this ongoing in terms of administrator pruitt's conduct. i must say i'm surprised because he's been in public life, he's

been attorney general of oklahoma, he was head of the republican attorney generals association. so he should well understand that there is a clear line, a clear line, between public responsibility and duty and private business. and you just have to honor that and of course president trump came to office with drain the swamp and so forth. and people can understand cronyism and they don't like it. and that's what some of this may be. again, i don't want to prejudge, but there's just been too much, too much controversy. >> $3 million spent on a security detail. purchase of a $43,000 sound proof office phone booth. tasking aides to purchase a used mattress for him at a trump hotel. no one has provided any explanation about why anyone, forget the epa chief, would want a used mattress from his box's hotel. that's just part of the list. this is what the president said about the epa chief last month. >> well, scott pruitt is doing a great job within the walls of

the epa. i mean, we're setting records. outside, he's being attacked very viciously by the press. i'm not saying he's blameless, but we'll see what happens. >> a bit of a contradiction. i'm not saying he's blameless but the press is so vicious. >> well, i think, craig what it shows is these kinds of episode situations take away from what the president is trying to do in terms of his policies. now, in terms of deregulation, he ran on that. i think we may overdo it one way or the other on some of these matters, but that's the real point. it takes away from what the president's trying to accomplish. he indicated that in his comments. >> shifting gears, chief of staff to the president, john kelly, there are reports now he is on his way out. that he's leaving his post. although the white house has called rumors of kelly's departure fake news. like-minded aides mulvaney have been considered.

what does all of this mean moving forward? more chaos, less chaos perhaps? >> this press and this white house have had just an unprecedented amount of change and turnover for the cabinet at the white house level. it's hard to get stability and really move your agenda forward. general kelly i think has gotten frustrated at times. he's expressed that. we'll see how all of this plays out. the truth is president trump in many ways operates, craig, without a chief of staff. that's the way he did in the private sector. but being president of the united states, being in government, is just very, very different landscape. so, you know, he's already had so many changes in the white house. you have to get stability. we had our challenge is getting started. but we did achieve that stability and president clinton got his legislation passed his first year and his approval rating reflected that.

remember, the president is going in the midmaterials with the house on a bubble, both in the house and senate. oprah has said she does not want to run for president. now she's explaining why. also, msnbc spent some time with the only woman running for governor in florida. we're going to take a look at her campaign strategy that she adopted from her father. i woke . (harmonica interrupts) ...and told people about geico... (harmonica interrupts) how they could save 15% or more by... (harmonica interrupts) ...by just calling or going online to geico.com. (harmonica interrupts) (sighs and chuckles) sorry, are you gonna... (harmonica interrupts) everytime. geico. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more on car insurance.

welcome to holiday inn! thank you! ♪ ♪ wait, i have something for you!

every stay is a special stay at holiday inn. save up to 15% when you book early at hollidayinn.com

oprah winfrey says a presidential run would, quote, kill her. in the latest issue of "british vogue" the media super star revealing in that political structure, all the nontruths, the bs, the crap, the nastiness, the back handed back room stuff that goes on, i feel like i could not exist, i would not be able to do it, it's not a clean business, it would kill me. kimberly atkins is chief washington reporter for the boston herald. she's also an msnbc political contributor. what do you make of oprah's reason for not getting into politics in 2020? >> i think it's one reason why

there are some folks, despite the popularity of the idea of an oprah presidential campaign, knew that she wasn't going to do this. this is somebody who has, you know, she's a self-made billionaire, she's perfectly happy running the empire that she has and she frankly doesn't need this job despite the fact that so many people rally around this idea after she gave that very inspiring speech at an award show, talking about the future and it seems people are looking for somebody who is inspirational like that. but i think it could be perilous for democrats to sort of rally around the same kind of reality television-type person that the president is, especially if they want to make the argument, look, we've been having so much chaos because we have somebody who was not experienced at the wheel. we don't want to make that same mistake. i think she knew. frankly has a good life. why would she want that job? >> it should also be noted oprah

has said she's really not interested maybe a dozen times. every two weeks, someone is, oh, maybe she'll run. oprah notwithstanding, there's a record number of a number of women running in the offices this year including the governor of florida and this is someone that you spent time with? >> absolutely. craig, florida is still one of the few sta20 states without a governor. gwen graham told me that 2018 is the year of the woman and hoping to be one of the female candidates who can notch a win. >> here we go. >> reporter: to be the next governor, gwen graham is going to have to work for it. with current governor rick scott running for governor, this race is wide open, expensive and crowded. she is hoping to have the grass roots appeal to be the primary appeal. >> okay. women and men. thank you. >> reporter: and that is to take

a page from the family political workdays from building a house for habitat for humanity to baking in a cuban bakery and hopinging to learn the floridians' crafts and earn their et votes. it is what her dad did. >> i am running for governor 48 years to the date that he ran in 1978, and he has done 406 and i hope to get 409. >> reporter: she is logging many days to hope to break the glass ceilinging campaigning on health care and gun safety. >> we will not be happy with doing nothing. >> reporter: and what it means to be a leader. >> you have made ate race a little bit of the referendum on trump, and what is the role that he plays in this state right now? >> i have said it publicly that i think that donald trump is an em barassment, and sadly he

continues to confirm my statement everyday. >> reporter: but graham's run for congress could get in the way. she as opponentses highlighting the policy breaking with president obama and not liberal enough to take back tallahassee for democrats. >> i don't believe that we should be looking at the labels, and the labels are limiting. for me, what this election is about is about getting good people, and women. women bring a different leadership approach. >> reporter: that approach is front of mind here at a women's leadership conference in orlando. >> what would it mean for you to see a woman elected to the governor of florida? >> after 2016, everything. >> reporter: and graham is predicting that now is the time for the female candidates. >> we all feel it. we know it. this election is about women. >> reporter: and if the voters feel that way too, 2018 could be the year that the graham makes a

mark on the home state. >> does she have a shot? >> our latest nbc maris poll shows her two points behind miami mare your fill levine, but there is 40%-plus people undecided. so the sam pain is hoping to use the supreme court nomination as a galvanizing candidate who can form a coalition of people around the right to choice vote. >> and maxine waters tweet ed a 3:00 a.m. this morning, and the president tweeted. crazy maxine waters, of the democratic party, and referring to herself as a wounded animal is going to make people flee the

democrats. and kimberly, this is the environment that we find ourselves in. and the metoo environment, and if they are the face of the party, could that be a winning factor? >> it could be. women led the march after the inauguration, and there have been so many issues surrounding women and including the advent of the metoo movement. and so that could be a benefit, because there were two tweets from the white house official account attacking not only maxine waters and senator kamala harris and senator elizabeth warren and these are galvanizing forces for women in particular, and there is already a sense within the democratic party that it is the one place that they can make some inroads and say,

look, we are the party of inclusion, and if you are looking at the president and the white house and the cabinet, it is largely white men and we can bring the women to the table for inclusion and not just for positions, but policies in general. >> good to have you botht here in the flesh. >> thank you. >> and we will be back with something to make you smile. the line between work and life hasn't just blurred. it's gone. that's why you need someone behind you.

not just a card. an entire support system. whether visiting the airport lounge to catch up on what's really important. or even using those hard-earned points to squeeze in a little family time. no one has your back like american express. so no matter where you're going... we're right there with you. the powerful backing of american express. don't do business without it. don't live life without it.

we want to send you off with

a smile. dust off the workout clothes, because you are going to want to get to the gym after this one. check it out here. the 60-year-old illinois native george hood set a new world record last weekend. he planked for ten straight hours. the marine corps veteran also holds the planking record for 2015 and 2016, and you are pr probably thinking the same thing that i was thinking when i saw this. why? apparently all of the planking proceeds were raised for a program that helps chicago youth exposed to gun violence and george hood 10 hours, and kudos to you, sir. that wraps up this hour of msnbc live, and we will see you tomorrow. >> and ask him what he is planking? i am still not clear. >> ab workout. >> and quite an accomplishment for that gentleman and certainly

nothingly ever match. thank you, craig. it is 11:00 a.m. for this hour pacific time, and the president is putting some of the longstanding allies on notice just eight days ahead of the summit in brussels and 13 days ahead of the one-on-one meeting with vladimir putin. trump took the leaders of germany, belgium and norway and canada to task for spending too little on their own defense and warning that the united states is losing patience with what he said is their failure to meet the security obligations shared by the alliance, and the letter set the stage for what is to be an awkward confrontation with the nato members, and many of whom trump clashed with at the g7 last month. press secretary sarah huckabee sanders said that the criticism is nothing new. >> the president has been clear on the message for a long time. the united states puts over 4.5% of the gdp