tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC December 5, 2018 4:00pm-5:00pm PST
that does it for me. i'll be back with a special reflection on paul ryan's role as speaker. "hardball" with chris matthews starts it now. a get out of jail card, let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matt yous in washington. president trump's former national security adviser, general michael flynn told all to investigators. it's clear that flynn who once served trump on the campaign and the administration is a valuable witness for the prosecution. it's also clear for flynn his cooperation is paying off. it already has, in fact, the special counsel last night fought a highly-anticipated
sentencing memorandum that shows flynn has been extremely use to feel mueller's investigation. crediting flynn with "substantially assisting the government." prosecutors recommended little to no jail time saying a sentence does that does not impose a term of incarceration is appropriate and warranted." the special counsel praised the timeliness saying it likely affected the decisions of related first-hand witnesses to be forthcoming with the special counsel's office. it was partially sealed due to the sensitivity of the investigations which are described as ongoing. >> that means the pages that could provide key answers to the central questions of the russia probe are largely redacted from the public report that was released last night. but we have learned flynn participated in 19 interviews
with the special counsel and that he provided firsthand information about the content and context of interactions between the trump transition team and russian government officials. most surprisingly, it reveals flynn was assisted with several ongoing investigations, including two outside the special counsel's probe, that includes a previously unknown criminal investigation in another inquiry, both of which are almost entirely redacted in this report. i'm joined by ben wittes, editor-in-chief of "law fair." susan del percio, republican strategist and mike quigley, a democratic congressman from illinois who sits on the house intelligence committee. i want to go to ben. what do you make on this? last night we expected a bombshell, instead we got a big teasing document with a lot of reacteded material that tells u this guy is a canary, telling mueller everything he needs to know about the relationship
between trump and the russian ambassador and all that stuff that went on yet we have to figure out what's going on between the lines here. >> everything -- so clearly what mueller decided to do here was he needed to communicate to the court what recommendation he was going to make with respect to flynn. he needed to communicate that flynn had given him everything that he could reasonably want from him. and he didn't want, yet, to tell the public what he knows, what he's found, what he's planning to do. so the document is a very careful, as you say, tease in which it outlines sort of the mechanics of what flynn has done. 19 interviews, substantially assisting in multiple investigations and encouraged other witnesses by his example to come forward. but doesn't actually say anything that he said. so it leaves all of that to another day. >> congressman quigley, thanks for joining us. could you use this report as a
flashlight, the point forward as to what mueller's got here? where he's headed? >> i think what's striking is, what? 17 months into the investigation we're still learning the width and depth of what the special counsel is looking into. and why does flynn matter? for those who forget, let's just remember what director comey told us. that the president himself asked him to go easy on flynn or the -- what would it take to let it go. >> obviously there's a lot of stake here and we have to remember when what general flynn was accused of. it was lying to the justice department or the fbi about his meeting with the russians on lifting sanctions. news stories all day long, all week long, about what those sanctions matter ed to the president about. so i'll say this, there's no coincidences in the russian investigation and everything is
tied together. >> well, the president has been characteristically silent on the memo since its release yesterday. his lawyer, rudy giuliani said of flynn, if he had information to share with mueller that hurt the president, you would know it by now. he added, there's a yiddish toward that fitz, they don't have bupkis. let me go to susan. you worked with rudy. he's using yiddish. he doesn't have anything to say so he's using yiddish. he gave us bupkis. >> i think he's meshugennah. the president's only legal strategy right now is deflection so of course rudy giuliani says that will make the president happy because that's what they've been doing all along and that's what the fundamental problem with the white house is
in handling this investigation is they speak when they don't know what they're talking about, and i think this is going to lead them to digging themselves a bigger grave than what they ha have. >> elaine, we know the story of the possible obstruction of justice began when the president went to the head of the fbi and said lay off flynn, let him go. now flynn has been let go. he's walking scot-free right now. what do you think he had to give him to get that get out of jail card? >> from what we're told 70 hours or so of interviews with the special counsel about his time and conversations you would have to think with the president during the transition, during the campaign. so that can detail -- we don't know what the nature of those conversations are yet.
>> quelwell, we know they must asked about what about your relations with kislyak, who were the deals you were make ining? >> the fact that this report is redacted says there are a lot of shoes left to fall in this investigation. the president and people around him have been telling themselves and the public that this is about to wrap up for some time, almost to make themselves feel like they can engineer it by saying it. that's not the case and this sentencing memo seems to be an indication that this is not anywhere close to being over just yet. there are possibly more indictments, possibly more big developments. >> tell me what else do you think is going on here? according to the document, it's not just the russia investigation, there's other criminal investigations, other civil actions, something going on perhaps. they're working this guy flynn for information.
>> flynn was involved in a lot of stuff. he was involved in the transition that is of interest to the special counsel. he was involved with russia stuff from before that, right? he was involved -- >> you saw him in the dinner over there. >> exactly. he was also involved in some very weird activities as a private lobbyist for turkey. so i think there's a variety of matters that the special counsel and the justice department would be interesting in talking to him about. now you can see where they are in the document, a criminal matter and a big blank spot. you can see where it is but what those consist of, nobody knows. bob mueller doesn't want us to know yet and he runs a really tight ship and we don't know yet. >> congressman, i'm wondering about how much information has fled already to the president
through whitaker, his acting ag. if whitaker got ahold of this stuff, he could walk it over the the president and say guess what, donald, here where's they're working. does whitaker know what's on this redaction? >> obviously the appointment of mr. whitaker was meant to, at the very least, slow or hinder the investigation if not obstruct or end the investigation so the fact that he's there and potentially, we just don't know, has access to the redacted words in this document is particularly of concern. if he turned it over to the president, at the very least they would be wildly unethical if not violation of the department of justice regulations. and we have to ask ourselves and congress needs to find out did he do this and has the president asked for this information? what communication is taking place and obviously if the president asks for it it would be another one of his abuse of
powers. >> right, but he's not been -- recused himself, whitaker, at all. why wouldn't he just ask mueller's team? let me look at that unredacted, i want to know what's in there. >> that's been his behavior. >> because it's unethical. >> that's what trump has done. he's tried to paper over things and made the situation a whole lot worse at different points. we're talking about the situation in terms of what conversations flynn had with kislyak during the transition and the question being whether he was directed by trump, did trump know about these things? trump was at mar-a-lago when flynn was having these conversations but trump, after russia decided not to respond to obama expelling the russian diplomats, trump tweeted "i knew putin was very smart." so he's already put information out there into the public realm already that is at the very least suspicious. >> speaking of suspicious, former trump adviser roger stone, who may be mueller's next target, is declining to cooperate with a senate
investigation by asserting his fifth amendment right not to incriminate himself. here's what stone said about the scrutiny he's been frurunder fr the special counsel and the congress. >> i think few americans could withstand the kind of legal proctological mister mueller has had me on. i won't stop defending myself. when people accuse you of wrongdoing and you're silent there's an assumption you're guilty of something. i think it's incumbent to defend yourself. >> you'll plead the fifth if you get called by the senate? >> i'm going to assert my fifth amendment rights. >> stone's decision to plead the fifth is especially notable because of what trump said after the fbi's investigation of hillary clinton's e-mails. here's trump on the fifth amendment. >> her staffers taking the fifth amendme
amendment. how about that? five people taking the fifth amendment, like you see on the mob, right? you see the mob takes the fifth. if you're innocent, why are you taking the fifth amendment? >> stone's decision to stay silent and take the fifth also comes after the president on monday praised roger stone on twitter for promising not to testify against him. susan, let's talk about this here because why would roger stone take the fifth if he says i've got nothing to use in prosecuting trump, anything i say will be honest, it won't hurt him. who is he protecting? himself, i guess. >> that and the president to some extent in that every time the president is under major scrutiny as in we saw in the document yesterday with flynn roger stone pops up and makes more noise as to detract from the real scrutiny the president is under so i think this is a political tactic by roger stone who likes to get his name out
there and cause a diversion. up with of the things i'm more concerned about is looking back at flynn and michael cohen because they have one new person that they both have in common which is don mcgahn. and he sat there for 30 hours giving testimony. michael cohen's statement says he kept white house counsel apprised of what he was doing and we also know that sally yates went to don mcgahn on michael flynn. i'd be focused on those 30 hours because it seems don mcgahn is the one who can verify and not be a tainted witness for mueller. i think that's where we should keep our focus on, not roger stone who likes to show up and make noise. >> well, he is fascinating. thank you ben wittes, eli skokol. coming up, democrats in wisconsin are calling it a power grab. overnight the republican-led legislature passed several bills to take power away from the
newly elected democratic governor and state attorney general. we'll talk to a wisconsin state senator about this power grab by the lame duck republicans. plus, it was an emotional day of celebration and remembrance for the 41st president, george herbert walker bush. we'll have the highlights coming up. and much of special counsel robert mueller's probe remains a mystery and the michael flynn filing didn't clear things up, just teased a lot. what does it mean for trump and those close to him? plus, let me finish with a strong suggestion for beto o'rourke. you'll know what it is. this is "hardball" where the action is.
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night working behind closed doors until roughly 4:00 in the morning when they unveiled their final bill. the lame duck legislation, among other things, will limit early voting, thereby suppressing the vote. it also gives lawmakers new power to block the governor to make rules to enact laws and puts lawmakers, not the attorney general, in charge of litigation allowing them to keep alive a lawsuit to overturn, guess what, the correct? the bill passed both chambers amid cries of "shame" from outraged onlookers and state residents. let's watch. >> let's face it, the republicans this year are very poor losers. >> the people spoke, walker lost, and now we are here to change the law so that you can claim some sort of victory. claiming a victory that you do not have by changing law top accomplish the things that are
completely contrary to what the winners campaigned on is disgraceful. >> i have been sick to my stomach this entire time and weak in the knees and i find it pretty telling that not a single member of the majority has spoken on any of these bills. >> ahead of the vote, the republican assembly speaker robin voss defended the lead for legislation. >> we don't believe any one individual should have the opportunity to come in and with a stroke of the pen eliminate laws that have been passed by our legislature. >> any individual. he's talking about the new governor. the new bill heads to outgoing governor scott walker's desk who signal head would support the bill. senate republicans in michigan are include advancing similar legislation during the lame-duck session. i'm joined by wisconsin state senator and assistant minority leader janet buehle and charlie
psychs from the "weekley standard." i always look to wisconsin as one of the clean states, at least historically. it was progressive, it believed in good government, clean elections, honest votes, all the good stuff. about 20 years ago it started to get corrupted by a hard right faction coming in there. is there something wrong with wisconsin now that they're crewing around in this lame duck session? what's going on? >> first of all, thank you for having me on. it's great to be joined by charlie as well. let me state that wisconsin is a wonderful state and there are many people in our state who are working hard like i am to make sure that the will of the people is heard. we have seen the actions of the republican majority. i wish i could say they're acting according to the will of the people but they're not. they're sore losers and they
want to change the law so they can continue to be involved and we are listening, the democrats and i very clearly to the will of the people to make sure their will is heard and followed throu through. >> well, some of this is the usual suspects, a cap on early voting so less people can show up. the other thing about making it harder to protect obamacare, it looks like they're going through everything they care about and acting like they won the election by pulling these legislative tricks. >> it's likely the restriction on early voting will be thrown out by a federal judge. napoleon once said it was worse than a crime, it was a blunder. and what the republicans have done is really been self-inflicted wounds because this comes off as petty, vin dickive the, and i think it will
backfire. and i'm hoping scott walker will step back and take a moment of reflection and veto this legislation. the argument that i would make to him, if he ever listened to me anymore, would be look, look at the way george h.w. bush is being remembered and the way that he handled his transition after his very, very bitter defeat by bill clinton. the grace with there he handed over power. governor walker needs to reflect on the kind of legacy he wants to leave because this is a power grab and it's either going to be thrown out by the courts or -- it's relatively minor stuff. the advantage they gain is not worth what they look like to the rest of the country and i don't think he grasps how bad this looks. what it will mean for his image and legacy and if he wants to step back and say having watched the funeral of president bush, this would be a moment to
celebrate democracy which is to celebrate the norms and the peaceful and reasonable transition of power and if he did that i think there would be a tremendous amount of good will gain. >> so you're hoping he'll skip the mickey mouse stuff. last month during the midterm election in november wisconsin democrats won all five of the statewide offices which were up for grabs. all five. democrats won 53% of the popular vote for the wisconsin state assembly but due to political gerrymandering they won 36% of the seats. that's a problem. tell me what it's like for them to basically distort the will of the people and use trick what is they want done against what the democrats ran on. >> well, if you look at this extraordinary session alone, it is a lame-duck session but it was called before the november 6 election.
and you have an issue which was kimberly-clark. nothing was done about that. so they changed it so they were able to get through these issues that they wanted to address at the last minute and there are two things to keep in mind. one, people were not included in any of this. they had no idea this was going to happen until the last minute. we received bills that were fresh off the printer and not only that once these bills are enacted into law -- if the governor chooses not to veto them -- we have great expenses. the amount of money that the lawyers who can be hired now by the legislature and the senate, any time the attorney general does something they don't want they can intervene and the amount of money they can spend is endless. these are private law firms they will be allowed to hire when we have in place an attorney
general, a constitutional office to protect law and order in our state yet the republicans can go out and hire private attorneys with a limitless checking account. >> charlie, what do you think of 2020 in wisconsin? you talk to people out all the time. what is your sense of wisconsin being in play? it was one of the trump states but not by so much, like michigan and pennsylvania. is wisconsin winnable by a democrat? >> yes it is, the kicker, the buried lede of what happened in the dark of night is that having pushed through this legislation, the republican legislature killed the bill they had promised to pass protecting pre-existing conditions. that was a huge issue in this campaign and governor walker and almost every elected official running in wisconsin, recognizing how important that was said we will pass
legislation protecting pre-existing conditions so on top of everything we're talking about that, i think is going to hang on their -- hang on them. this energizes the democratic base no question about it. wisconsin remains a purple state and nothing the republicans have done in the last 48 hours has strengthened their hand in 2020. >> thank you so much. wisconsin state senator janet bewley, thank you. please come back to the program. up next, wisconsin is clearly in play. up next, the current and former presidents gathered in washington to celebrate the life of their own. this is "hardball" where the action is. this is your wake-up call. if you have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking on irreversible joint damage. ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion. humira can help stop the clock. prescribed for 15 years, humira targets and blocks a source of inflammation that contributes to joint pain and irreversible damage.
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welcome back to "hardball." today in washington and across the country was a someday of celebration and remembrance of the life of president george herbert walker bush. the casket carrying the body of the 41st president left the u.s. capitol in the morning where tens of thousands had paid their final respects. the motorcade made one final drive down pennsylvania avenue, passing the white house, the place bush once called home. the washington national cathedral was filled by family, friends and dignitaries from home and abroad. there's prince charles, you can see him talking with colin powell and german chancellor angela merkel with senator bob corker, there she is on the right. also were all the living former
presidents, along with president trump and first lady melania. they're all together. the tributes were paid to the man that once held the highest office in the land. let's watch. >> george herbert walker bush was america's last great soldier statesman. a 20th century founding father. >> i believe it will be said that no occupant of the oval office was more courageous, more principled, and more honorable than george herbert walker bush. >> he often said when the really tough choices come, it's the country, not me, it's not about democrats or republicans, it's for our country that i fought for. >> wow, former president george w. bush offered a solemn and poignant sendoff not just to a fallen president but, of course,
to his dad. >> last friday when i was told he had minutes to live i called him. the guy who answered the phone said "i think he can hear you but he hasn't said anything for most of the day." i said requested d"dad i, love have been a wonderful father." and the last words he would ever say on earth were "i love you, too." so through our tears let us know the blessings of loving you, a great and noble man, the best father a son or daughter could have. and in our grief, let us smile knowing that dad is hugging robin and holding mom's hand again. >> i'm joined by former senator john warner of virginia. i had to have you on. you're a world war ii guy, korea guy. you know bob dole. >> oh, yes. >> you saw he stood up yesterday
for his old colleague. >> that was a moving site. he's a marvelous american, i know him well. i'm humbled to be in his presence. >> bob dole? >> yes. i was having lunch with him the other day. we reminisced about the old times and he finds it, as much as i do, tough to understand a what happens to all that wonderful political structure we once had in this country, be it republican or democrat and how we got along and got things done. but the key to it, chris, is that in the period dole and i were in the senate together, which was about 30 years i was the there, 70% of the senators were veterans and they were taught either in the army, navy, or the air force or whatever, the marine corps -- duty, honor, country was tattooed on their heart. and you never get over there and you know that you've got to do
things and get things done to move forward and you know you've got to learn how to respect the man or woman on your right or left because if they fail to do their job someday it could be your life. those are the fundamentals. >> i think you world war ii guys knew how to work together. >> we did but generations of young men and women now in service -- >> what was it like in the national cathedral? was there a mood? >> it was quietly serene and dignified. . just a little chatter, people waiting for ceremony to start by you got absorbed the moment the organ struck its first notes. >> were you surprised how bipartisan today was? >> no, it doesn't surprise me.
i think that bipartisanship, we saw it with the presidents and first lady there is. there was a few tense moments, not that i saw all of it but you did, perhaps. >> i'm looking for it. >> well, they were there and they were very dignified about it. >> well, it's hard for someone like mrs. clinton. >> oh, it's terribly hard for her. >> the way he's been trashing her. >> not only that. but there's a question of how it was done. it's not a proud chapter in our history, this race and i think fortunately our democratic system is working and we're going to get to the bottom of this thing, how and what did happen and did not, i'm confident of that. >> let's talk about george herbert walker bush, what do you think he wants to be remembered by? to be a man owing everything to pay back to this country.
in his final moments -- i knew him reasonably well. i say that humility. he saved my butt when i was in political trouble, the hard right was going to bearry me but he'd straighten up. you know, he -- he exemplified that generation of world war ii, the greatest generation. he andry two or three years apart in age, we saw america as youngsters suffering from depression. people didn't have enough to eat, they didn't have homes or jobs. he'd seen this transition and took it through his own courage. three world war ii and into public service and i bet he said to himself as he rolled over, i've been a patriot, soldier warrior, everything and maybe i
had something to make things better today. >> i have to tell you, i saw you stand up against some of the crazies in your party like oliver north, i saw you stand up for women's rights and health, you made tough decisions in your party. you're smiling because you know you stood up for them and you had the guts to take on the crazies and a lot of progressives would look up to you and say there's a man i can respect even if he's a conservative. >> i always used to say country first, state second, okay politics, i'm here third. . i went and gave a 50th anniversary of the college and we got it done. >> senator john warner, thank you so much. up next, more of what the flynn sentencing memo means for trump and his family, his kids. they're all in trouble now. what it tells us about robert mueller's approach to the whole investigation. he's taking it slow but getting it all.
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jiel muwhile much of the fl sentencing memo is behind public view, but in requesting no prison time for flynn mueller wrote flynn's recordover military and public service distinguish him from every other person who has been charged as part of the special counsel investigation. however, senior government leaders should be held to the highest standards. well, i'm joined by the "hardball" round table. yamiche alcindor is correspondent for the hour in, jonathan capehart is opinion writer for the "washington post," ruth marcus is editorial page editor of the "washington post." ruth, i was kidding during the break there. it's like wheel of fortune, you see some but not all of the words. you have to fill them in. >> i'd like to buy a redacted
line now if i may, we're reading tea leave bus they're blacked out. it tells us probably that flynn has provided significant, important and trustworthy information to the special counsel because basically flynn got what president trump asked for all along which is for the special counsel to go easy on him. no prison time. >> he got it through a different route, yamiche. trump was going to get him sprung. anything on sanctions, trump knows all about it, he knows where he's vulnerable now. if you're president trump you should be worried because michael flynn got a cad lock deal idea that you have mooufl who everyone thought he would be
easy to prosecute. early on he was pointed out as someone who would be in danger. he sat down for substantial interviewings, he's gotten information to them and if i feel in is lying we've seeing robert mueller has no problem reeling back the agreement so michael flynn is probably feeling like he wants to tell the truth. >> there was a number of scenes at this morning et funeral service for george h.w. bush. all five current and former living presidents attended. a gathering of what is commonly called the president's club. president trump shook hands with former president obama and then right there, very dutifully with michelle obama but did not engage with the clintons whatever. they were 90 degrees from him. hillary clinton, his 2016 opponent and target of his taunts to this day stared straight ahead not even glancing in his direction.
trump hasn't spoken to the obamas or the clintons since around this time at his inauguration. jonathan, i saved this for you. what do you make of what we saw and how just was it? >> that's interesting, how just was it. president trump in that crowd was persona nongrat. a all of those people, particularly the democrats sitting there had been targeted for assassination by pipe bomb and when asked have you fall it had obamas or the clintons he said no, i'll pass. he's out there at rallies in the leadup to the midterm elections saying i want to prosecute hillary clinton. the people sitting there -- >> and he was trying to prosecutor. it wasn't rhetoric. >> no, it wasn't rhetoric. he was trying to do it so the idea -- the fact that the obamas reached their hands out to him to shake -- to shake his hand, they are living what they --
their mantra, when they go low, we go high. they kept it civil, good morning and moved on. the clip you schroeder hillary clinton staring straight ahead not engaging with donald trump but before that as they were coming into the row when melania, the first lady, came into the row, mrs. clinton was looking at her and nodding, acknowledging her, then she turned and then she ignored the president. and with good reason. >> i agree. >> i think it's awkward city. there's no other way to put it. it's cringe worthy not only because there's political tension but barack obama just in the midterms was clearly criticizing president trump. then you have michelle obama doing this tour where she's opening up about the danger she feels donald trump specifically put her family in so it's not just that it's political history, there's recent history of these people not liking each other. >> what a club, huh?
i wouldn't call it a club. >> a club that might not want all the members in the club. there's been tension between presidents before, among ex-presidents and between incumbents and their predecessors but there has never been a scene like this that i can recall. >> there it is, we caught the picture of hillary shaking her head rather -- >> they're so obviously uncomfortable with the sitting president of the united states. that's extraordinary and to say that shaking hands is going high -- i'm not criticizing the obamas' behavior by any means, but that shows you how low a benchmark we have. >> there weren't going to be embracing. finally one member of the president's club has been making the rounds with several democrats eyeing a 2020 run for president. the "washington post" reports beto o'rourke met with obama in washington last month. andrew gillum, the guy running
for governor in florida, met with obama just yesterday and the enthusiasm o'rourke and gillum generated has led to speculation about their presidential prospects in a year when the democratic field could number -- who put 20? a lot more than 20. the "washington post" reports the dnc is finalizing a debate plan to, quote, give lesser-known candidates a chance to share the same stage as the party's front-runners avoiding the two-tier kiddy table approach that divided the republican field in the last presidential election. i hope they don't have debates during nfl big games. let's have when people are watching like weekday nights. what do you make of the fact that -- yamiche, no more kiddy tables, that i'll makes up the big guys with the little people. >> you might have started with me because i'm sometimes at the kiddy table. i think they're trying to learn
the lesson that republicans learn. >> you mean you moderate. >> right. the fact that you had 17 republicans and ended up with donald trump. they're trying to figure out if we have to 20-people, we don't want to end up of what their version of donald trump might be. they're dealing with well known senators and political people but they could be dealing with silicon valley techs, a really popular mayor. >> they used to have a percentage of, you have to have 5%. how do you keep somebody with a lot of money and no name i.d. out of there. >> and how do you do percentages when you have this number of potential people. i think getting rid of the kiddy table, mix it up, have random selection and different panels of people doing it, it's not just the democrats are not wanting to repeat the mistakes of the republicans last time around but also not wanting to repeat their mistakes where they were accused of scheduling
things in a way that favored hillary clinton. so this seems like a better way. we'll watch. >> however you do the debates, fine. however many people are on the stage, that's fine, too. i remember democrats in 2008 going oh, my god, there are 10 people on the stage. it was one of the best moments in the democratic party. >> there might be 30 this time. >> the party has to figure it out. the bigger issue for the democratic party isn't how they arrange the people on the stage, chris, it's what do the party faithful do when their favorite candidate isn't the one who has the nomination? they have to start acting like republicans, circle the wig gones around the nominee and make sure that person wins. >> i want you to write a column about that 20 times between now and next year. >> i've already written. >> it if that party doesn't think like that, they will not win. up next, these three will tell me something i don't know. they're very impressive so far. that's "hardball." maria ramirez!
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tell me something i don't know. >> becoming a police officer has plummeted in this country. the starting salary is $79,000 in seattle, and applications have dropped by 59%. has to do with the national conversation about -- >> who's signing up ethnically? african-americans less, whites less? >> depends which city. if you're the nypd, there are a lot of officers of color, in seattle it's a whiter police force. depends on what city. >> what do you think the it is?
>> hard a tell, it might be the conversation we've been having about criminalization of african-americans and the role police officers have been playing in killing people in unjustified shootings. >> those headlines every time kill me, every time. jonathan? >> i interviewed senator doug jones for my podcast at the post and it's the one-year anniversary of his election. he's a former federal prosecutor and i asked him with the mueller investigation and the talk about the possibility of the president pardoning flynn or cohen or anyone, he issued a good reminder, a pardon only gets you so far. once you have the pardon, mueller could still compel them to testify. they no longer have the right to waive their fifth amendment -- invoke the fifth amendment. you can't use them. if you don't testify you could go to jail. if you lie you are still -- you could be held for perjury. so part of me is like, go ahead,
pardon manafort. go ahead and do it. manafort is still -- >> what stops him from pardoning him again? >> i mean, okay, we are in that other world. >> also, state prosecutions. we've been remembering george h.w. bush today, i want to remember an -- a "washington post" writer who covered george h.w. bush, but she received a beautiful letter talking about a inevitable tension that clouded, strangely, wonderfully, i feel close to you now. i want a fare thee well for you to see through your fight. that was george bush at his finest. >> so well, thank you to my panel. when we return, let me finish tonight with a strong recommendation from me for a potential 2020 contender.
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let me finish tonight with a strong suggestion. it's that beto o'rourke should run for president. i got a good look at his race for senate when we hosted the hardball college tour at the university of houston. there was magic in that room like when we hosted a hardball college tour at west chester university up in pennsylvania in
2008 for senator obama. democrats respond to magic. i have a reason for urging a beto run. i believe elections should be about the future. to those who say beto can't win a senate race in texas, let me remind you of george herbert walker bush who lost two races for the senate in texas. that's hardball for not. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in". >> he did something right. >> one day after the flynn memo. >> damn right. >> what we're learning about what was redacted. >> you guys were good. >> and why the memo should worry donald trump and jared kushner. the untold saudi spending at president trump's hotel. then, republicans follow through with the vote to grab power from democrats in wisconsin. >> let's face it, the republicans this year are very