>> you ready? deep breath? you sure? all right. here it is. no more waiting. sit down because here it comes. the beat with ari melber starts now. good evening, ari. >> that's it? >> that's it. >> i was getting excitement for some chuck todd delivery. never been less excited for the start of my show. i'm having mixed emotions. >> you screwed up the entire promotion. it is supposed to make you feel better. >> make me feel good! >> the big announcement, ari melber was starting on time, now it is 20 seconds late. >> now people know, we don't plan the tosses. your astute observation about overhyping of candidates is reminiscent of lebron. i don't know much about sports, i know he got in some trouble for overhyping. >> well done.

that's a good reference. i'll give you that. >> thank you for the big setup. chuck todd with a big announcement. we have a big show, even though we didn't know he was doing that in the toss. look at what's happening now. let me show you this. roger stone new, could be jailed for violating the gag order, brand new order from a judge with a new hearing scheduled. if that story feels like it is repeating, remember, he was told this was his last chance. also tonight, news broken here on the beat. michael cohen's lawyer revealed new trump hush money check written in office while he was president for a crime because michael cohen confessed to the crime. we have more on that story that broke last night. and later, you can call it only a serious and embarrassing rebuke, donald trump's own party, republicans rejecting trump in the heart of his agenda on immigration. so we have a lot going on as seems to be the case these days. we begin with what could be the

epic subpoena showdown of this term. the white house, they're not waiting, negotiating, they're saying no way, refusing to turn over key documents about what many call a nepotism scandal, jared kushner's security clearance. they won't give up the intel to congress. democrats led by elijah cummings, fresh off much watched michael cohen hearings, they say they're not taking no for an answer. this is what it looks like. the white house says the request for documents on the security clearance was overly intrusive, while they would brief congress, they won't give up the documents that they're demanding. "new york times" reported what you know was a bombshell that donald trump lied and had overruled his own intelligence professionals and ordered them to give jared kushner a security clearance, despite serious concerns about national security. chairman cummings firing back, says the white house is stonewalling a legitimate probe and adds there's a key difference between a president

who exercises his authority under the constitution and a president that overrules career experts and top advisers to benefit his family members and then conceals, congressional for lie, conceals his actions from the american people. this is a developing story. i want to begin with jim walden, former federal prosecutor, represented the former director of the trump campaign's data firm. she's one of 81 people here that nadler wants more documents from on the house side of the probe, and natasha bertrand who covered these stories. there's a lot that's legal, jim. everyone knows congress is-co-equal. >> on this one, the president has the better argument. security clearances are uniquely a by-product of executive orders, they're not covered by the constitution or covered extensively by statutes. it was a 1988 case where a related issue came up and

oversight got shut down. >> are you dropping precedence in the first answer? >> i did. sorry about that. >> that's amazing. very legal right out the gate. keep going. >> okay. so i think that if congress, congress is just asking questions. whether or not the supreme court is going to permit congress to in some ways intrude into the process that the president went through with kushner i think is doubtful. >> you're saying basically this is an area they have a lot of power in the white house, even if democrats could be right on the facts that the white house lied, i mean, donald trump according to "new york times" lied about this, that family members lied, there was a desire to override national security protections. >> to be clear, i'm not saying the concerns aren't fair, they are fair concerns, but i really think this supreme court is very unlikely to intrude on what has been exclusively an executive

function. >> natasha? >> look, i mean, i'll defer to the lawyer obviously but i think that it's obviously fair to say that this is a very legitimate oversight request. the extent and breadth of the request is something that needs to be hammered out between the committee and the white house. it looks like at this point they're willing to have the conversations. i mean, i know the white house counsel did say he did not really received much feedback from elijah cummings, the chairman, and he felt like it was all one sided, but i think at this point rather than a subpoena fight, which we definitely may get to, there's going to be one more last ditch effort to make it easy for everyone and i don't think we'll see necessarily a protracted fight over this, i think they will hand over key documents that the oversight committee will ultimately be satisfied with, because it is a question

about kushner, question of why did he leave off 100 plus contacts and still get clearance. these are basic questions that don't require the oversight committee to go that deep. >> to be fair, who among us hasn't forgotten 100 foreign meetings here and there. >> great point, ari. it slips your mind i guess. jared kushner has a meeting with a sanction over the russian bank and wasn't disclosed. >> you have a duty as a government official, sometimes you have 107 meetings you don't forget. i joke but it is not funny in the sense it is very serious what the intelligence and national security officials, nonpartisan career were worried about with jared kushner and we just tonight don't know. we want to be fair about what we don't know and also what we do know is they were this concerned. we had an fbi expert on recently, and this is an issue you both know, said look, if it was a maybe kind of call, the

tie goes to the presidential family member. it has to be bad for them to keep saying no. and the overlap with the mueller probe where jared kushner has been under intense scrutiny, gotten in all kinds of trouble, not alleged to be a target or anything like that. i want to play new sound, you and i have spoken of over the months of the probe, ty cobb talking about the challenge of working for a client, p boss li donald trump. >> he hates obstacles and he reacts strongly in the face of obstacles to move them out of the way, find somebody to move them out of the way for him so he can do things. it's a challenging environment. it was a fascinating task. >> what do you think of the euphemisms in play there because obviously he didn't hold the job. natasha. >> are you asking me, ari? >> yes. >> i think it is directly in

line with what we heard from the former secretary of state, rex tillerson, who said that the president would often ask him to do things that were potentially illegal, that he couldn't really do. so it is not surprising at all he would try to overrule the career officials telling him jared kushner shouldn't have security clearance. experts tell me until the mueller investigation is over, kushner probably wouldn't have been able to get clearance anyway because he is under scrutiny in that probe. the fact he is under federal investigation by the mueller team is probably one of the major reasons if not the reason he hasn't been able to get this clearance, let alone the plethora of foreign contacts he kind of forgot about. >> jim, before we turn to the house investigations which are making a lot of news, i want to play one other thing ty cobb said. he is a trump lawyer but not the rudy school. here's what he said new today about bob mueller. >> i think bob mueller is an american hero. i've known him for 30 years as a

prosecutor and a friend and i think the world of bob mueller. he is a very deliberate guy and he -- but he's also a class act, and a very justice oriented person. >> what does that mean coming from ty? >> i would say it is buyer's remorse. cobb is an old school republican. he has old values republican. ronald reagan republican as is bob mueller. i have no doubt that ty cobb feels strongly about bob mueller, he is an american hero, he is a decorated war hero. i think what's happening with cobb is there's a little reputation management going on. you know, it was difficult to represent the president, no doubt. >> hold on. ty does the euphemisms, you give it to me straight. what do you mean reputation management? >> president trump and the people around him that are representing him broke a lot of eggs, violated a lot of norms.

that came off and tarnished some people -- >> is eggs a code word for laws? >> no, i wasn't saying cobb broke laws. i think the president broke eggs, broke norms, did not follow cobb's advice, and that's difficult for a lawyer to deal with. but the reputation consequences of having to go against a friend like bob mueller, he wants to come through it and say this is what i really believe. >> it may be interesting as we get more clues from individual players. you represented a witness in the mueller probe, ty went against them, john dowd went up against mueller, whenever we get into what may be the end game, only my knows the timing. both of you stay with me. what i want to do is turn to other news. the security clearance fight is one thing with congress, then you have chairman jerry nadler in the house revealing he's hearing back from some of the 81 witnesses and companies asked for documents. >> 81 people is a lot.

have you had any response already? i realize this is the first day. >> yes, we have. we've had positive responses from a number of 81 people. they have been saying they'll give us documents, some started giving us documents. >> donald trump's inaugural chair and former press secretary saying yep, they'll comply, while the president attacked it. >> the fact is that i guess we have 81 letters. there was no collusion. that was a hoax. there was no anything. and they want to do that instead of getting legislation passed. 81 people or organizations got letters. it's a disgrace. >> one of the avenues is donald trump's family business ties. today one of his sons says they'll fight. >> are you gonna get a lawyer, are you gonna produce documents they requested in two weeks? >> we have plenty of lawyers, don't worry about lawyers. yeah, we're going to fight the hell out of it, we'll fight where we need, and cooperate where we need.

>> natasha, what is the payroll here if people farther from trump's orbit are cooperating and the closest people, what we saw, and the president himself, are not? >> so i think the parallel is political. the house judiciary committee investigation so far seems to be pretty transparent. they released all document requests online, all the letters sent out to witnesses, and jerry nadler i would note is someone who is very familiar with trump's business practices. he spent better part of two decades trying -- he is familiar with the constitutional law aspect, he is the one that would be willing or able to launch impeachment proceedings. i think that it is interesting because these are not documents that have not been produced before, either to various congressional committees, special counsel, or southern district of new york, house

judiciary committee was very intent upon for reasons of speed and efficiency upon asking witnesses for things they've already turned over, so the judiciary committee can look them over again. i think what we're going to see moving forward, the committee is not going to keep all its deliberations a secret. i think we're going to see a more transparent investigation that could be more politically damaging to the president and his allies and supporters than perhaps the senate intel committee investigation and house intel committee investigation which have been secretive, behind closed doors by necessity. >> right. i think, jim, the president has a vested interest in tying it back to collusion. obviously nadler spoke to that, said they're looking at other abuse and obstruction and it is wider than the mueller probe. new reporting from "the wall street journal" about the discussion of potential pardons. on one hand, sources are clearly going at michael cohen's credibility. on the other, you have a

tantalizing statement about rudy giuliani, left open the possibility that the president could grant mr. cohenna pardon in t in the future. >> bill barr would take a different view. his view is if there's a lawful legitimate act, even if undertaken for corrupt reasons, it can't be obstruction. i disagree with that. if the president uses lawful authority but uses it specifically to try to obstruct, impede the investigation, there's liability whether the president is charged now or later, and we can have that debate. that's a problem if any of the prosecutors can prove that. >> jim walden, natasha bertrand, thank you so much. coming up, a federal judge ripping roger stone about potentially violating a gag order with a new hearing next week. and donald trump faces a rare rebuke on the wall from his own

party. that's an important story. and later, new revelations about a bid to keep donald trump's military school records secret. and reporting on his first hush money check paid to michael cohen while trump was president later, dick cavett. we will talk about the john dean moment. i am ari melber, you're watching "the beat" on msnbc. hing "the beat" on msnbc. ♪ ♪ do you love me? ♪ ♪ i can really move ♪

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bad news for trump adviser roger stone. today a federal judge issued a new order, hauling stone back to court for possibly violating his gag order. based on an instagram post that attacked the prosecution. he abused the latitude, posting incendiary, threatening messages on instagram, an echo of witness threats he was originally indicted for. now stone must defend his statements in the new hearing next week, while mueller's prosecutors suggest the violation was a problem for the gag order. they have a standard filing and in a footnote, mueller said stone's post could violate his gag order. tonight's news on this is simple. it is more likely roger stone will go to jail and that's because of roger stone. we know jail is more likely because the judge that decides this gave stone his last warning

recently, noting from the bench he violated the gag order already and unlike baseball, you don't get a third chance. no more chances means jail. this same judge is the one you may remember that gagged paul manafort and told his team to knock it off with the press conferences outside the courthouse, saying the trial was not a public relations campaign. then when manafort was busted for something worse than talking about the case, the guy was busted for talking about the case to witnesses, the same judge cracked down. >> paul manafort's arrival at federal court in washington was one of his last moments as a free man after mueller's prosecutors charged him with trying to influence witnesses that might be called to testify. >> explains why she's putting the president's campaign chairman in jail. the judge says i wrestled with this. what conditions could there be? this is not middle school. i can't take his cell phone. >> the judge couldn't take his cell phone so she took his

freedom. you may recall paul manafort has been incarcerated ever since. that's how we know stone is more likely to be jailed. how do we know this is his fault? because roger stone played himself, more specifically he played himself on social media, on the gram. the context matters. not everything a defendant says risks jail. stone argued a gag order was unfair to someone who made his money communicating. >> i make a living writing and speaking politics. i would hope the court would take that into consideration. they would be depriving me of making a living if i am entirely gagg gagged. i need to raise money to mount a defense. >> that sounds reasonable, do g during that time we reported how that could be a decent argument. i showed cases he could use to defend free speech. his conduct made it harder to invoke those cases or defend

him. even roger stone didn't defend roger stone at the last hearing, the final warning hearing. he said it was indefensible, he was responsible, and deflected onto a group of unnamed volunteers who help him with instagram, he claimed he couldn't remember who was involved in that days earlier. we also know this is stone's fault, he has been attacking mueller in the case and media appearances across television using his very own indictment for a huge media blitz and leaking his own security footage which showed the mueller arrest, then to go back on tv to attack it all again. >> to storm my house with greater force than was used to take down bin laden, it is unconscionable. this was an egregious overreach by mr. mueller. these are gestapo tactics. they treated me like el chapo. >> you may know already those claims are false, but legally stone's problem isn't even lying about the case, it is talking

about the case at all, even true statements can violate the current gag order. while stone may not be able to control himself, to help himself to stop, the judge can jail him because he keeps posting attacks on instagram, a clumsy criminal wan a be gangster version of what kids these days call doing it for the gram. this may be a fitting crime for reality show era, it risks everything for showmanship. he attacks the judge who controls his fate with the cross hairs picture, and the propaganda image, likening mueller to stalin on the gram. this one imagining himself as david fighting a mighty mueller goliath. or the latest image that implies that mueller has illegally framed him. roger stone could be the first defendant in the whole mueller probe to literally go to jail

for the gram before he even stands trial. if that mean stone fits the current media moment, let me observe tonight this is a sad synergy that fits a wider decline of what it means to try to be a hustler. another person makes his living off words, shawn carter who recently noted while the older generation of hustlers were discrete, nowadays wannabes brag about crime on instagram. carter explains why this is dumb saying i don't be on the gram going ham giving leads to cops, that's all spam. and in lecturing online phonies, he says a little advice. please don't talk about guns that you aren't ever going to use. you always tell on yourself. that has me so confused. shawn carter was addressing studio gangsters but could have been addressing roger stone. if stone had only listened the judge in this case, to his own

lawyers, or yes, to shawn carter, maybe roger stone could have avoided today's rebuke from the judge and avoid whatever she decides next week. instead on the gram, roger stone keeps telling on himself. we wanted you to know about that story. up ahead, i have a watergate insider joining us all about michael cohen's testimony and how it all fits into the nixon precedent. but first, donald trump rejected by republicans on the wall. when we're back in 30 seconds. ll when we're back in 30 seconds. to be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best to make you everybody else... ♪ ♪ means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. does this sound dismal? it isn't. ♪ ♪ it's the most wonderful life on earth. ♪ ♪

first, it was mexico will fund a wall that will get built. then it was finish the wall even if americans pay for it. tonight, it is unclear if any of donald trump's border wall will be constructed. the proposal is in jeopardy because four senators in his own party are breaking ranks saying they'll vote against the attempted national emergency, and there could be more, the dam could break. gop defections, senator rand paul says at least ten colleagues say they want to vote against trump. the president has a message for those going against him in his party, showing what can only be described as a veiled threat in that interview with sean hannity. >> i think really it is a dangerous thing for people to vote against border security for anybody, including republicans. i think that republicans that vote against border security and the wall, i think, you know, i have been okay at predicting

things, i think they put themselves in great jeopardy. >> former speech writer for george w. bush, penned a recent article that criticizes republicans for sinking further into trump's cesspool. and francesca chambers. good evening to you both. peter, when you see what republicans put up with and what's happening here, what's your analysis of what you call the cesspool and whether this is a real opposition. >> well, i don't think it is really an opposition. there are isolated cases, there were 13 republicans in the house that are going to defect, between 5 and 10 in the senate, that's not a huge revolt. even if they go cross wise with donald trump on the vote, they're not going to be able to sustain the veto, so trump will get what he wants. if this were a real revolt, mitch mcconnell would be leading it. we know mcconnell doesn't agree with him.

>> just on that point, you're saying that while there is a step here, you're saying basically mitch mcconnell is being hypocritical? >> yeah, he is. he knows this is wrong. he knows if barack obama had done this, he would be in high dungeon and said he doesn't agree with what trump is doing but he is going to go along with it. the republican party spent better part of two years when it comes to donald trump and for the most part cowardly. we have spasms of independence, spasms of courage, but they're rare and the acid test will be with the investigations of donald trump. i can virtually guarantee you the republican party is going to be more or less in lock step with them. this is not foreshadowing deeper fracturing. >> you wish it were, you complained about and been

concerned about the cesspool. i wasn't expecting a bush official to mention an acid test as a way to understand this. very timothy leery of you. >> well, you don't know what you get on cable these days. >> fair. francesca, you're at the white house. you hear peter saying what he sees as a republican and the problem here. let me play a little of mitch mcconnell speaking about the man that occupies the building you're in. take a listen. >> i was one of those hoping the president would not take the national emergency route. what is clear in the senate is there will be enough votes to pass the resolution of disapproval which will then be vetoed by the president. >> what's he doing there, and is that good enough for donald trump who famously wants a really excessive loyalty no matter what? >> so the white house is responding quite cautiously to this, pointing out there's still

on-going litigation. you have to remember when the president announced the national emergency, he said he didn't need to do this. that became the basis for legal challenges. so the white house proceeding cautiously, but an official told me this evening it is making staff at the white house available to lawmakers that are expressing concerns as well as directing them to the department of justice as it prepares for the vote, ari. >> peter, listen to how the president is trying to defend this as, you know, the kind of typical thing that happens regardless of what he does. >> if president trump can build a wall when congress has refused to provide funding, then the next president can declare a national emergency and tear the wall down. >> a lot of people talk about precedent. precedent. that if we do this, the democrats will use national emergency powers for something that we don't want. they're going to do that anyway, folks. >> i apologize for asking you to give a serious response to

donald trump's blythe cpac rebuttal to senator alexander, but we can elevate the discourse. peter, what do you think of that argument? it seems so pat environmentally nie list particular and conservatives talked about the need to constrain federal power, regardless who is in office. >> look, i agree with you. it is nylistic and hypocritical. we have seen this when barack obama took actions as related to daca kids. republicans were furious about it. whether it sets a precedent or not, and i agree with lamar alexander, it could, but that's not the point. the point is whether it is right or wrong. i am using vocabulary alien to donald trump and a lot of his supporters, but it is blatantly unconstitutional. whether it is illegal or not is another question. there's no doubt this particular action which was to try and -- after rebuked by congress on this issue, on the funding

issue, to then invoke emergency powers for something that's not an emergency which is a clear violation of separation of powers is simply wrong, it is unconstitutional. remember, this is the party that has people that probably have referred to themselves as constitutional conservatives. here is an issue which is so perfectly framed to say no, it is a step too far, and you get rand paul and four, five, six other republicans, but the rest are falling in line. this i think is symbolic of the deeper corruption and corrosion, intellectual corrosion and moral corruption of the republican party. for me it is lifelong republican. a sad thing to say. it is the reality of things. >> intellectual erosion and corruption. happy tuesday. francesca, final word. >> republicans seem torn on this. when i spoke to republicans they didn't wants to say how they were planning to vote. several mentioned that they

believed it is unprecedented expansion of executive power not just from this president but past presidents suggesting they're against it, again, not wanting to go against president trump on this. secretary neilson was at the policy luncheon for republicans trying to persuade their vote. vice president mike pence went last week to talk to them. we expect more senior officials to be working with republicans as we move to the vote. >> what they care about on the optics, not as much on substance as peter pointed out. thanks to you both. up ahead, michael cohen back on the hill whether trump likes it or not. he revealed through his lawyer new trump hush money check live on the show. that new reporting is next. >> $70,000 check which i have with me today. the president said to michael at that time you will be getting the two checks soon. e getting the two checks soon. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job

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now to a big story that broke live on the air last night. michael cohen's lawyer, former prosecutor, was here exclusively, and he brought receipts, including a new one. >> this check was the first check, it is the check that the president himself said to my client when he visited him in the white house, said that check would be forthcoming soon, and sure enough it was. >> here is a picture of that very check which we obtained during our show. $70,000 payment, february 2017, trump had just become president. cohen's lawyers say it was signed by weisselberg and donald trump jr. while this was not entered into evidence, meaning it is brand new, it is official evidence in the case and it would seem to corroborate a key claim that michael cohen made about donald trump under oath. >> he says to me something to

the effect of don't worry, michael, your january and february reimbursement checks are coming. as he promised, i received the first check for reimbursement of $70,000 not long thereafter. >> i am joined by federal prosecutor paul butler who argued corruption cases previously. good evening. does this check back up that part of cohen's testimony? >> it is proof that michael cohen has papers on donald trump. it is necessary corroboration because as we all know, michael cohen is a witness with a lot of baggage. so he brought a receipt in the form of a $70,000 check which is documentary evidence that donald trump senior is in a criminal conspiracy with don jr., allen weisselberg, and michael cohen to violate federal election law. >> you mention election law, that's what's so important. so many things happened, people may forget. the payment is already a

confessed crime in federal court which michael cohen confessed to, part of why he is going to jail. when you look widely at what the country thought of, i thought this was notable. court of public opinion, not juries, but way more people in this environment believe in cohen than trump. what do you think of that, paul? >> so two things. one, not only is it a confessed crime already, it's a crime that the southern district of new york has stated on paper that president trump committed. and cohen sentencing memo, sdny said he acted at the direction -- >> not an indicted co-conspirator. >> yes. and the timing is significant as the lawyer pointed out in that great interview you did yesterday, ari, when he said this is after "access hollywood" where president trump was making

payments to the alleged mistress, last thing he needed was more evidence that he had a woman problem. he felt that he had to make the payments as kind of a response to "access hollywood." >> that's where the criminal part goes into an extra legal part, everyone can redo elections as much as they want, but you have the emerging picture of this election crime which helped him in an election, another election crime where mueller indicted the russians, and you stack how many crimes are committed to impact the outcome of the election. at what point does that have greater significance. the other thing we got into, he was careful as you would be if you were representing someone in the southern district of new york on this exchange. take a look. >> he does continue to assist the southern district. >> you said other investigations. is that other authorities in new york? >> yes. >> would that be potentially

including the new york attorney general? >> yes, that's true. >> what does it tell you that cohen's lawyers in a limited way are acknowledging he continues to try to help the feds who didn't deem him a formal cooperator and the attorney general of new york, they don't control his federal prison sentence and congress in this public way. he brought up the actual federal rule that you know about that can reduce a sentence. do you see this as adding up to help him reduce jail time or is that unlikely in your view? >> he is trying hard as he can. it would be up to the prosecutor, especially the southern district of new york. mueller has already given him a lot of credit. what sdny said so far is mr. cohen, you haven't told us anything that we don't already know, so that certainly raises the question. we have been wondering how much evidence mueller has, it is starting to seem like the southern district of new york has a lot of evidence on president trump.

and the other thing about the state investigations is that they're pardon proof. this may be in part about roger stone and paul manafort, people that are in the don't be a snitch club about president trump. if they're not snictching on th promise of a pardon, then that ca can't insulate them from state prosecution because the president can't pardon them from that. so apparently that's one of the questions michael cohen will be answering tomorrow when he goes back to the hill. was he promised some kind of pardon, was that dangled in front of him. if that's the motive for why manafort and stone are acting so shady, not forthcoming, even though it is not in their own interest and staying out of prison, they need to be cooperating, why aren't they. if it is about a pardon, then the state prosecutions can get around that and michael cohen might have the goods on that as well. >> fascinating points you mac

make on the implications of multiple cases. thank you. >> always a pleasure. we turn to a watergate insider with key historical knowledge and tv legend how he stands up to john dean and more. that's next. ohn dean and more. that's next. nt. they really appreciate the military family and it really shows. with all that usaa offers why go with anybody else? we know their rates are good, we know that they're always going to take care of us. it was an instant savings and i should have changed a long time ago. it was funny because when we would call another insurance company, hey would say "oh we can't beat usaa" we're the webber family. we're the tenney's we're the hayles, and we're usaa members for life. ♪ get your usaa auto insurance quote today. woman 1: i had no symptoms of hepatitis c. man 1: mine... ...caused liver damage. vo: epclusa treats all main types of chronic hep c. vo: whatever your type, ask your doctor if epclusa is your kind of cure. woman 2: i had the common type. man 2: mine was rare. vo: epclusa has a 98% overall cure rate.

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a lawyer for the president turns and tells all. history will surely remember michael cohen blasting trump as a criminal before he himself reports to jail, his allies long

touted cohen's chance to be john dean to trump's nixon. while america and the media changed a lot since then, during both both eras, americans are fixated on the twist of a white house in full freefall scandal. dick cavett realized viewers would love to geek out over a special show that broadcast from inside the watergate hearing room. >> there's enough litter on the floor to fill a garbage skou the end of the day. i asked them to leave it so you can see what it looks like. i would like to make it clear now i had no knowledge whatever of the watergate coverup. senator baker, by the way, when i was sitting in the witness chair, i felt guilty. it is a very strange feeling. >> you might be the first one. >> that funnyman with a guilty feeling is my guest, dick cavett, a host that proved to be an inquisitive student of the

scandal. >> why was it all necessary? >> the plan was made to put electronic surveillance capability into the dnc headquarters. >> anytime anybody illegally wire taps or bugs somebody else, that's a bad thing. what wonderful secrets could there have been. >> i think we were trying to find out how they could afford headquarters in the watergate. >> while mr. trump tweets grievances against people in media or culture, nixon tapes were in secret, on one he asks the chief of staff, quote, what the hell is cavett, and quote, how can we screw him. >> who the hell is cavett, god, he's -- >> he's terrible. >> well, is there any way we can screw him? that's what i mean, there must be ways. we've been trying.

>> joining me, dick cavett. >> that's okay. the door was open. i was looking for rachel maddow. >> sometimes you settle for what you can find in a newsroom. let's look at this comparison that many people make of john dean and cohen. take a look. >> uh-huh. >> i am ashamed, because i know what mr. trump is. he is a racist, he is a con man, and he is a cheat. >> i began by telling the president that there was a cancer growing on the presidency and if the cancer was not removed, the president himself would be killed by it. >> do these conversion stories move americans? >> that's a good thought. what i was jolted by when dean came on the screen just now, remembering the thrill of those days. and as he said, you woke up and had to get your watergate fix right away. >> the people were hooked on it

then the way they are today. >> yes, so. by the way, believed every word, just believed every word he said. >> i admire the way you did your show and the risks you took. i love that we can watch a lot of the old ones on amazon nowadays. we can learn a lot from the way you did it. for example, in a very racist america, you made a point of facilitating these conversations that were, at the time, groundbreaking. let's look at james baldwin on your show. >> the israelis think i've gone to the polls, or the irish, or any white man in the world says, give me liberty or give me death, the entire why is world applauds. when a black man says exactly the same thing, word for word, he is judged a criminal and treated like one. >> why was it important to you to do that in a format, late night, where that wasn't happening? >> i don't know.

i just thought, i had read some of his stuff. i had read a bad review, that was also a rave of one of his books. in fact, the critics said, he said, he stood there with the breeze hungrily licking at his trousers, and a critic wrote, no, he didn't, and there's no use saying he did. >> pushing boundaries in a different way. salvador dali marching an anteater around your set in one of the most delightful late-night scenes i'm going to say ever. take a look. >> okay. >> can we get a look at him? he's really great. >> because of the tongue. the tongue is exactly represent [ inaudible ] >> i think we all agree on that.

>> watch yourself. >> what can we learn from salvador dali. >> that you can go on even if you're insane. the great james agy reviewed a book about dali when he was a young man and it was dali's so-called autobiography. and one of the things he recalled was the fun he had using his little baby sister as she crawled across the floor, her head as a football. >> you have a lot of wisdom, what would you offer to the younger generation? what's important, when we're overwhelmed by political lies and media and propaganda? >> my hold philosophy, professor paul weiss at yale said, you're not going to make it, really. it's going to be ripped and torn and beaten and horrible the way it is. and if you will only try, you might make it a little bit better. >> and that's why i say, doesn't trump wish such the thing was such a disaster that he had

saved his heel spurs more this trip to vietnam? i want to write a song called, please, mr. president, go back up that escalator. >> dick cavett, on that note, the escalator, thank you for coming on "the beat." >> you, too, man. >> there we go. there it is. >> fantastic. up ahead, we're going to show you what we promised, this new bid to try to keep donald trump's military school records secret. trump'mis litary school records secret i can't believe it. that we just hit the motherlode of soft-serve ice cream? i got cones, anybody wants one! oh, yeah! get ya some! no, i can't believe how easy it was to save hundreds of dollars on my car insurance with geico. ed! ed! we struck sprinkles! [cheers] believe it. geico could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. geico could save you come hok., babe.

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new reporting on a story you may not have heard about. there are these efforts underway to try to hide donald trump's academic records. "the washington post" reporting there were top officials at trump's military school who hid his records at the request of some sort of wealthy alumni who said they were allies, friends of trump. and then the superintendent telling "the post" pack in 2011, they moved the records to a secret location on campus so they couldn't be released. now, all of this happening at a time when, yes, of course, donald trump was challenging barack obama to release his college transcripts. the whole report seems to corroborate something you may remember that michael cohen testified to under oath just last week. >> i'm giving the committee today copies of a letter i sent at mr. trump's direction, threatening these schools with civil and criminal actions if mr. trump's grades or s.a.t. scores were ever disclosed without his permission. >> nothing illegal about that,

but many wondering, what was donald trump so intent on hiding? now, tomorrow, michael cohen will go back. he's testifying in a closed setting to the house intel committee. i'll tell you tomorrow for our special coverage, we have congresswoman val demmings who will be question cohen. she joins me tomorrow along with sam nunberg and the rev al on "the beat." that does it for me. "hardball" is up next. stonewall. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in los angeles. donald trump's son says his father's people should stonewall demands for evidence. in other words, give up nothing to the investigators. he's responding to the house judiciary committee's demand for documents from over 80 trump people and organizations. there they are on the list. that list, which was issued just yesterday includes the president's company as well as members of his family, i