live edition of "politics nation." coming up next, "deadline white house" with my friend and colleague. hi everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. donald trump's soft underbelly has been exposed. apparently talk of being sent to prison is his real trigger. o for a second straight day the president is ranting about nancy pelosi saying she'd rather see him serve time in prison for his alleged crimes than be impeached. today the president is calling pelosi disgusting and a disgrace with this mid air tweet sent during his journey home from the uk. quote, nervous nancy pelosi is a disgrace to herself and her family for having made such a disgusting statement especially as i was with foreign leaders

overseas. that tweet caps a two-part smear of the highest ranking democratic leader in our country. the first came in this interview with fox news taped in the cemetery while world leaders were gathered to commemorate the 75th anniversary of d-day yesterday. >> i think she is a disgrace. i actually don't think she is a talented person. i've tried to be nice to her because i would have liked to have gotten some deals done. she is incapable of doing deals. she is a nasty, vindictive, horrible person. why is her district with drug needles all over the place? it's the most disgusting thing what she has allowed to happen with her district with needles, drug addicts, people living in the middle of the street, on the sidewalk. she ought to focus on that because she is a disaster and she made a statement. a horrible, nasty, vicious statement. >> while you were overseas. >> while i'm overseas. if i made any statement about anybody it would be like why would he do that when he is

overseas? she is a terrible person and i'll tell you, her name is nervous nancy because she is a nervous wreck. >> when you're overseas he is still overseas saying those things. god. all right. so here is the original story that sent trump into his now days long tail spin. pelosi, this is the reporting. quote, i don't want to see him impeached. i want to see him in prison pelosi said according to multiple democratic sources familiar with the meeting. instead of impeachment pelosi still prefers to see trump defeated at the ballot box and then prosecuted for his alleged crimes according to those sources. in the category of you couldn't make it up if you tried here is the voice inside donald trump's head on the topic of investigating political rivals. >> speaker pelosi now apparently telling senior democrats she'd like to see trump behind bars. based on no actual crime, she wants a political opponent locked up in prison. that happens in banana

republics, beyond despicable behavior. and by the way, they would literally turn in many ways the u.s.a. into a country we would no longer recognize. >> okay. put a pin in that. it sure would, sean. just in case irony is really dead we wanted to give him the record with this headline remember when the "new york times" revealed donald trump tried to ask the justice department to prosecute jim comey and hillary clinton? it was a move foreshadowed, instead of singing kumbaya like they do at normal campaigns they chanted, lock her up. [ chanting ] >> tell you what. for what she's done, they should lock her up. she deleted the e-mails. she has to go to jail. i think hillary is very weak. i think she is pathetic. i think she should be in jail for what she did with her e-mails. >> it is just awfully good that someone with the temperament of donald trump is no the in charge of the law in our country.

>> because you'd be in jail. >> so the moral of the whole story for those of you following along at home, karma is a you know what and that is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. >> jason johnson is the political editor for the root.com. and national affairs analyst is here and my other guests. we are also joined by the former u.s. attorney joyce vance and former fbi director for counterintelligence. as ludicrous as they are, as ridiculous as they sound, for pointing fingers and accusing their political opponents of doing that which they have done, one of the most disturbing things the president did was ask his justice department and then attorney general jeff sessions to investigate and prosecute and jail jim comey and hillary

clinton. so the notion that sean hannity still has the capacity and then maybe he is worth what they pay him if he can say those things with a straight face that it makes us a banana republic to talk about prosecuting our political rivals. >> well, it gets even more recent than that. you'll recall, nicolle, attorney general barr wouldn't even answer the question on the hill as to whether or not anyone at the white house had asked him or talked to him about investigating opponents and others contrary to trump. so it's still going on. for fox news to have someone saying that pelosi's behavior smacks of a banana republic is to simply disregard reality. here is the important distinction between what the president's been doing and chants of "lock her up" at rallies and targeting opponents versus what pelosi said to a group of her members. pelosi has an obligation, took an oath to uphold the

constitution and address the conduct of a president that might constitute high crimes and misdemeanors. the mueller report has laid out a strong case for obstruction of justice. she just needs to -- all she is doing, all speaker pelosi is doing is saying we've got criminal conduct laid out for us. now we have to figure out how to address it whether impeachment or imprisonment. what the president is doing like a banana republic dictator is targeting his opponents without any evidence that they have committed a crime and, in fact, people like hillary clinton and comey and mccabe have been looked at, are being looked at. we have yet to have evidence to move forward with criminally. >> joyce, it is a great point. donald trump is in the southern district of new york, and the illegal hush money scheme and in the mueller report, robert mueller took to the podium and rather famously said if i could say he did not commit crimes i would have. donald trump is targeting people who simply have the audacity to

run against him in a presidential campaign and refuse to drop the mike flint matter is what bothers him about jim comey. there is something deadly serious and i guess with trump it is always so insane and wrapped in these conundrums, slathered with riddles. and then torqued by sean hannity's lunacy. but there is something deadly serious. there really is an open question about what the barr justice department will become. >> i think it is a serious question and you're right. there are miles of water between the accusations, the chants of lock them up that trump and his supporters slung at democrats and this notion that the president who has been the subject of an investigation that couldn't clear him might really be at risk of going to jail. those are two completely different things. but i think the hannity quote really tells us something that perhaps he didn't mean to tell us and that's that these challenges and the criticism of

this president as taking us into banana republic territory and really tarnishing the justice department and opening up its processes to criticism, that that criticism has hit them very close to home. they've seen how effective those charges have been against the trump justice department and this is, perhaps, their way of trying to sling them back but you know, nicolle, the facts still matter or at least they should and there is just no comparison between the president making political accusations and nancy pelosi talking about the results of a criminal investigation. >> the other open question, john, is whether nancy pelosi has struck the right balance but, clearly, by putting herself at a fork in the road and presenting one path is impeachment and the other is prison she got under donald trump's skin again. >> she did. i want to go back to my friend sean. >> yes. go wherever you want to go. >> i haven't been on the show in a little while so i'll warn

everyone in the booth i might use language that needs to be bleeped out. i think it is legal to say this. i call -- on people at fox news when they lie. obviously sean is full of it, right? we talk about the hypocrisy of what was on display with this last night. it's hypocritical. we talked about lunacy was your phrase. it's lunatic. mostly it is the relentless, disciplined, aggressive pursuit of a business model. the business model of fox news is to create an alternative reality that is destroying the country. in that alternative reality hillary clinton is a criminal. she was a criminal from the day donald trump said that on stage at the second debate in 2016 and then beyond the convention, republican convention. she has been a criminal then, is a criminal now. they've created a world where there are tens of millions of people who think hillary clinton is a criminal. so sean is not crazy. he gets what he is doing.

to be clear about it, is to understand what they are doing, it is part of why nancy pelosi faces the decisions she does. i've been critical of her for how she framed the impeachment debate. i think she is undermining the house's responsibility to pursue impeachment but the political reality she is confronting is created by sean hannity and his business model built on lies and fantasy and hypocrisy and -- that is what she is dealing with every day is there are tens of millions of people who not only haven't read the mueller report but don't think there is anything bad in the mueller report about donald trump and think hillary clinton to this day should be in jail. until we get past that somehow and i have no idea how, it's going to be the political challenge someone like nancy pelosi has to navigate on this question. >> well, you just turned this in a different direction. let's have this conversation. >> i hope that's okay.

>> it's fine with me. you can talk to my producers later. but part of the reason donald trump won was because no one ever had a symetrical debate with him. there is an asymmetry in this country because the ultimate reality is the reality in which donald trump thrives, where hand size matters, where not only people think hillary clinton committed crimes which jim comey came out and said the opposite was true. >> helping donald trump win the election. >> but it's a reality where spying occurred. i guess the bottom line is, if this is a play and it's all -- as you said, the play is in its second season and they've recast the attorney general. sessions is out and barr is in. it is getting more dire. >> we have an attorney general who has embraced the fox news world is what's happened. that is a hugely scary thing for the country. >> well, not only that but i also think if we go back to where all of this sort of anger

comes from, there is this difference in what trump has done and how he's presented this and also wha bear in mind what nancy pelosi said was behind closed doors. it was a closed door conversation she was having with staff that happened to leak out. it is not something she has run on. i was just at the conference with the reverend in atlanta yesterday. maxine waters comes out and says impeach 45 right? she doesn't say throw him in jail. she says impeach 45 and i think he is a criminal. there is a big difference in the tone and tenor and behavior of public officials who say i think this person has committed an act and should be held responsible and this president who basically says, if i don't like you i will call you names, threaten you with prison, i will threaten everybody in your family with prison and i don't care if there is any justification for it. >> but i think the other point you're making is that, you are making a point about reality and you are making a point about distinction. i disagree with you. i think nancy pelosi is fine having things leak out. she is trying to appease a

caucases that would like to see her proceed with impeachment a lot more aggressively than she is. no one has an answer to the alternate reality. now heading into a presidential campaign. we'll spend the rest of the day trying to figure out what to do with your bad word. there is no parallel to what the president says and does and what fox news, how they cover it. >> i think that is right. not only is fox news divorced from reality and donald trump is, fox news is a dangerous political force. they've been doing this for a very long time. they did it during obama while republicans on the hill were obstructing him, the way they went after him constantly was personal. it was really personal, not really about policy but a personal attack. so bawhat donald trump is doing he rises up, people's negatives, brings them to his level so that

for him it is a false choice. that's the trick here. he did that in 2016. he is doing that with nancy pelosi. there is nothing new. he is doing it with nancy pelosi because he fears her. she holds the key. she is the one that's going to decide if he is going to be impeached or not. and now he is hearing, oh, she wants to throw him in jail. that enrages him. and she's a woman. look, nancy pelosi did not become the first speaker, the first speaker ever in the house and also the most powerful woman in politics without understanding how to deal with an entitled man. she knows how to deal with him. and this is where we are today. and so that is what you're seeing from him. i don't think he was scared of hillary clinton but he's scared of nancy pelosi. >> i want to know why he's more afraid of prison than impeachment. >> well, i think that several things that we must remember. one, any time you bring up pelosi, he is unraveled because he can't deal with a smart woman. and we've talked about that.

so he gets -- he sees red when you mention pelosi. you talk about he could cut a deal with -- he met with her three minutes three weeks ago and walked out. he wasn't trying to make a deal with her. talking bad about people while he's overseas, he was up in the middle of the night tweeting about bette midler and nobody knows what it is about. this is about nancy makes him unraveled. i think what we are really looking at here goes to some of john's point. the model that they use is this kind of hypercriminalizing of people whether it be hillary clinton or the central park five. this quote brings that model back to him. it is almost like if you're a fighter and a guy uses your punch because he knows how effective that can be. he knows if it catches him he should be in jail because he used that kind of model against people. he becomes part of the symbol of what he used to make the

clintons look like that. the last thing he needs is for people to start picking up in the street, hey, he should be in jail not impeached because he knows how he worked that kind of craziness in 2016. that is -- you're giving him his own medicine and that is what has him all really going crazy. >> frank and joyce let me bring you back in and put the same question -- impeachment, this seems to be something trump experienced as a challenge that he would enjoy, you know, a fight, a joust. prison, prison is like this cold shower. he's like, wait, what? prison? what did they catch me for? why do you think, frank, you go first on this because we've talked about how you would profile someone like trump, how would you profile a suspect who acts so out of his mind at just the specter of prison? >> well, first, there is a new "i" word and it is not impeachment it is imprisonment.

this truly pressed a button with him. why? i think he looked at manafort, realizes manafort's fate and manafort is essentially rotting in prison right now. like you said he could have dealt with impeachment as a positive and played the victim. he does that very well. but now pelosi has one upped him and said, no. there is something far worse than that that you can't play well and that is going to prison. that got to him. the other thing is i wonder if this now signals the start of nancy pelosi becoming a proxy, basically the embodiment of all things democratic for him. so he's got two dozen opponents for the race for president. that's a lot of people to single out and bully every day. i think we'll start seeing pelosi becoming that single proxy and representative that he can lash out and tell the public this is the bad person that represents all these people. >> joyce, i want to just get on the record. you know, we're not talking about prison. nancy pelosi isn't talking about prison the way donald trump talks about prison. i just want to make this

abundantly clear. i think that what has been reported, the body of public reporting, after the cohen sentencing in december of 2018 it became clear that the southern district of new york viewed donald trump as an unindicted coconspirator in an illegal hush money scheme. there's been reporting donald trump views among the many reasons to run for re-election the protection and insurance against potential indictment. after the mueller report came out, there was an article in the "new york times" that some of the ways in which the mueller evidence was presented would preserve prerogatives for future prosecutions. when you talk about the possibility of a prosecution or an indictment for donald trump it's because the reporting suggests that it is a real and viable concern among people close to donald trump. when donald trump chants, lock her up, about hillary clinton, it's for conduct that was never described as criminal by the u.s. justice department or fbi that investigated her.

>> it's an incredibly revealing moment where trump really would have been much smarter to just let this pass but he's now brought back into focus this notion that there are allegations out there of criminal conduct against him. the southern district of new york presumably has facts that indicate that they could indict him. there are other investigations, some of the redacted investigations, that could reach him. the attorney general in new york is looking at conduct that the trump organization engaged in. we know throughout this, there is this underlying threat of bob mueller who refuses to exonerate the president from allegations that he obstructed justice. and we need to just stop for a minute and think about that serious allegations that the president of the united states, the man who is in charge of law enforcement obstructed justice. if that's not enough to send trump into a tizzy there is now a letter signed by over a thousand former federal prosecutors, republicans and

democrats, which is just to say career folks who looked at the law and the evidence and concluded trump is at great risk of going to prison in the future. that scares them. >> to address the topic we are supposed to be here to talk about which is ploes oin this i'll say one thing. i think this is a really important week. obviously she wanted that quote out in public and put it out there. >> i agree. >> i think up until now you've had this thing where you had the democratic candidates for president, most noticeably elizabeth warren but others. we'll talk about biden in a little bit but most saying impeachment query for sure let's go. right? clarity. on the house side what you hear is mush mouth like, well, he's committed indictable offenses but i don't know if we should -- impeachable offenses but i don't know if we should do the impeachment. do an investigation thing. blah, blah, blah. they sound like idiots right? she has now put forward a clear alternative framing. the first time anybody has said something who is not on the impeachment band wagon who said

something as clear. which is to say i don't want to impeach him. i want to put him in prison. that is really clear. back to what red said, trump gets that claurty rity of the message. when democrats sound ambiguous and all over the place trump says they're a mess. now he heres pelosi say there is an impeachment message clear and an anti-impeachment message that is equally clear and threatening. she hit the nail finally. i'm not saying you can't do both but i'm saying she has been looking for an answer for how to hold off impeachment hearings. this is a good answer if that is what she is trying to achieve. it is a better answer than she has come up with before. >> don't rush past this. it is in their fear world. let's not forget it was just a couple weeks ago nancy pelosi went to a ceremony at the white house and they said, did you bring the handcuffs? i mean, this is in their psych.

because that is what they are afraid of. and those of us from new york know donald trump does know people that go to jail and the ones around him know. this is no joke when you are somebody that is a real present danger. who jokes to the speaker did you bring the handcuffs? >> yeah. i mean, he could go on a tour. he could go, where is michael cohen? he could go to three prisons and see old friends. thank you for spending time with us. this wasn't what i expected but you were invaluable as always. after the break, donald trump isn't the only one turning his fire on joe biden. the 2020 democratic candidates go after the party's front-runner as he hangs on to a sizable lead. pete buttigieg puts himself out there in an all out effort to win support from african-american voters. is it helping? and the world takes a mental health day to recover from the trump family's european vacation. the damage assessment coming up. i must admit.

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>> joe biden has led the 2020 democratic primary poll since before he even announced his candidacy. the latest poll showing him with a 12-point lead. with the first debates less than three weeks away his competitors are going on the offense drawing increasingly sharper policy contrasts with the former vice president. but as the "new york times" highlights, quote, you'd be forgiven if you missed it because they almost never mentioned mr. biden by name. his opponents have begun the delicate footwork of going on the attack without appearing as the aggressor turning to

euphemisms and at times all but winking hoping the voters and news media will pick up on their implicit message in a way that doesn't also sully them in the process. is this smart? is this the way to go? this feels like a ground game. you talk to voters and they like biden a lot more than the political press would suggest. >> i think it is smart. not only the fact that a lot of the voters like biden. the fact that they dislike trump so. they don't want anyone to try and get any distraction from what is perceived as the enemy which is trump. i think that people are being very careful, talking about the candidates, not to appear to shall the one that breaks rank. the real test is going to be at the debates because how will you distinguish yourself especially if you're on the stage with biden without, especially if you are one of these doing very low

in the polls, how does anybody remember you're there unless you throw a hail mary? that could get a little testy and divisive. how will biden respond? last night i spoke at the african-american summit and he spoke as well. and he is a testy fighter when he is attacked. i think he stayed on the high road but he is not going to be one who is going to stand up there and not answer. i don't think he'll get in the mud but i don't think he is also the kind of guy that won't respond. that is going to be the test. >> let me press you and bring everybody in on this. i mean, i feel there is a disconnect between how we cover biden. there's been about 48 hours of near hysterical coverage of his change in position on the hyde amendment. when he changed position not just for himself but also the entire obama white house on marriage equality he was celebrated as a hero. his position evolves when you spend a long time in public life

positions evolve. he is being slammed. really on the defensive. is there a gap between what voters think about biden and the change in position? you're nodding. >> literally i've had this conversation with members of team biden. it's like, look. in the real world my friends in ohio, north carolina, georgia who don't do this on a regular basis don't care about the hyde act. they don't care about the 1994 crime bill. they just think he is uncle joe, a nice guy. >> they don't care about anita hill. >> they don't care about any of this. >> not saying they should. no judgment. but voter mentality. they look at biden. they like the message. they like the legacy and they like what you just described, the fighter. >> here's the thing. people are forgetting what deto paul ryan. he took down a kid half his age, right? and was very good at those debates. you can't just go for joe biden in these debates. he will be able to defend himself. i am kind of curious when everyone is making these vague, okay.

we can't go into the past or the future i'm wondering who is going to be the john kasich, the dig gephardt, who is going to take the suicide pact and be like i'm not winning i'm just going straight for him in the debate. someone has to make that decision and how he responds to that person will determine what elizabeth warren or kamala harris or anybody else does. >> i think there are voters and there are voters, right? the democratic nominee electorate, well we say these people -- the electorate is to the left of where joe biden is historically. that is a fact. that doesn't mean he can't be the democratic nominee for a lot of reasons. people think he is the best one to take on trump whatever. but the question going into this has always been when the party has moved as far as it has to the left especially at the activist level whether the series of issues on which biden is to the right of them, what that was going to be a problem. this is the first time when that has become a problem.

it is not going to be the least. you saw seth moltin. when he made that point which is the point all the democrats are making, welcome. you're on the right side now the hyde amendment, great. what about the iraq war? the iraq war took down hillary clinton against barack obama in 2008. a lot of democrats were for the iraq war. but to the democratic nominating electorate that was a main thing, a point of policy distinction between barack obama and hillary clinton. we'll talk about the iraq war and joe biden and we're going to talk about impeachment where everybody who is above 2% in the polls except amy klobuchar maybe and joe biden is now four square four in impeachment inquiry. that question joe biden, why are you not where elizabeth warren, cory booker, bernie sanders, all the rest are? the top democrats are now four square for an impeachment inquiry. joe biden the front-runner is not. he'll get questions about the iraq war. is he going to change his

position? he will get pushed on this. this is a dynamic that will play out and will be the central political challenge for joe biden to confront. i think he did fine this week. i don't think it will hurt him at all. i will tell you this is the thing for months going forward whether attacked directly or obliquely he'll be answering questions over and over again about is he where the democratic party is today or where the democratic party was and where he was comfortably situated for most of his career? >> you hit it right on the nail. the problem is he is the front-runner. that's it. i mean, if he was at 1% nobody would care what joe biden's 40-year career was. it is that he was the front-runner. you were in a -- we're in a situation where the media, we cover donald trump, the president of the united states, 90% of the time. 10% of that air time the 20 plus candidates have to fight for it. that is really where we are right now. you have -- the other reason why he is the front-runner is people want to beat donald trump. they believe joe biden is going to do that.

they remember the legacy of obama. it makes them feel good. it brings them back to a certain time. i have to give him credit. he did the right thing by going back on the hyde amendment. >> i agree. >> have you to remember women came out in 2018 and women are going to play a big role in particular black women. that was a right move for him. he's talking about white, working class. trying to hold on to that african-american base. he can't be for the hyde amendment. >> he did it well. he did it last night at the dinner i referred to. but i think we're missing one thing. i've been on that stage in the presidential debates. it is not just which questions are raised. it's who raises them. if you see something people don't see as standing up, they don't care, they don't know who some of these people are. they're looking at joe biden, barack obama's vice president

who was there and got gay marriage through and this, that, and the other and this is a big deal with healthcare and some guy or lady they never heard of is trying to beat up on uncle joe who was with barack. that's the problem. you got to remember when barack obama took on hillary clinton, hillary clinton had a lot of unfavorables and barack obama was the rising star. he had stature. you don't have everybody getting on the stage that has the stature to take a punch at anything other than somebody in the audience and they hope they don't do that. >> but you saw it this week when all of them put themselves on the side of the hyde amendment. all of them this week said we're for repealing the hyde amendment, he moved. >> i don't think he moved because of them but because of black women -- which is why, john, he waited and changed in front of the african summit last night. >> exactly. >> he did not respond to the candidates. >> he went in the black

audience. he had a script and he says before i do that, and he put the script down and he started talking about the hyde amendment which is where he should have -- he didn't respond to them. >> didn't care about them. >> joe biden is the front-runner but his biggest concern right now in the midst of all this is what happens when you become mr. inevitable, right? the first time you screw up is when you really fall off the cliff. >> that's what happened to hillary clinton. the biggest danger he has is he has to look like he is still working for this. if he looks like he is going to coast people will come after him even in the activist community and on the ground in key primary states. >> no one is going anywhere. don't worry.

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sign up with net generation. as we've been discussing the 2020 democratic field of candidates is the largest in history, all of them fighting for air time which may explain why last nightmare pete buttigieg appeared on showtime show where he appeared to have some fun. >> you're out here, hood certified, up town certified? >> that's right. >> you know, they say in new york city you're not allowed to have a thing called open containers but apparently if you put an alcoholic beverage inside a brown bag the cops won't see it. >> then it's good. >> i don't know if you want to sip. >> come here more often. >> don't let the kids see. >> all right. >> keep it low. >> okay. >> tripping at the end of the

month, bro. >> so i guess my question, or my observation, is that donald trump had the strategy of turning down -- you talk to people in the trump campaign, i'm sure you know this better than me, it pained him to turn down media opportunities. he felt like that was free air time. it pained him. when they wouldn't let him call in or people stopped taking him on the phone it pained him if he couldn't get rudy or kellyanne to go on a show. mayor pete has nothing in common with donald trump. we stipulate that except he appears to be the most eager and accessible. >> and his communication strategist who i know well has said we're not going to say no. we are going to take every opportunity given to us when it comes to media because they understand that he is still being -- people still know who he is, yes. in our world he has, you know, he is interesting, intriguing.

we talk about him. but a lot of people don't know who he is. there was a south carolina poll that came out two or three weeks ago and showed he was at zero percent with african ams. >> this wasn't just a media appearance. let's be clear. >> so he needs to make traction with african-american voters or else after iowa or new hampshire he is done. this is the problem pete buttigieg is having right now. >> is this going to work? >> with a certain group of people. >> i watched. i thought it was great. one thing i can say, i've been very critical of mayor pete. i wrote about what he did with housing and things in south bend. this is the fastest learning curve i have seen for a candidate with african-american voters ever. he went from not knowing anything about black people and not having particularly good surrogates to engaging in all sorts of social and media opportunities that will help him. i will tell you this about south carolina. it is not just that he is at zero. there are issues he'll face with black voters in south carolina and places that people don't want to talk about. i have talked to people down

there. i talked to a person a head of a local party who said we sat around and said in our church he is gay, he is married. we won't vote for him. he is dealing with that. now that's in the white community, too. but in the black community that is a real issue. he has to make himself available to black millennials. he has to make himself available to younger african-american voters because old black voters are not going to vote for him. this is where you have to do it. >> i think that is also why it is smart for him to not turn down media opportunities. you are dealing in some parts of the country with older black voters, homophobia is there. the more they see him the more they don't see him as something odd. you got to remember if you were a certain age in a certain region of the country to even think that i'm going to vote for a married gay man is unbelievable. but if you start seeing him a lot like he went to sylvia's with me, did this show and all, you may not vote for him but you don't think he is that weird or

that that is something you can't even think is in the possible. i think he needs to do that because it normalizes him with a lot of people that need to grow to understand, this is not the america that you were with your biasses and prejudgments grown up to be. >> i think it is a mistake to focus on pete though this kind of opened the door. he has a challenge right? if i look at the top tier of the democratic field other than joe biden who has real support especially among older african americans, real support. bernie sanders, amy klobuchar, pete, every single one of them has the same challenge. none of those people has ever drawn a substantial amount of african-american votes. not one. some of their policies would be good for the african-american community and some bank on that working. i don't know how well it will

work. the reality is you got a bunch of people below joe biden and then some actual candidates of color who are still introducing themselves to the country and to the communities outside of the states that are known. someone like kamala harris known well in california. racial affinity maybe but doesn't have a natural constituency in south carolina. same thing is true of cory booker. everybody has these challenges but pete's challenge with african-american voters is the challenge virtually every white candidate has. i take my hat off to him for going on the show. what you've seen from most of the others is either blindness to it, mostly, occasionally giving a speech at a conference which reaches the people in the room and maybe gets a little television coverage but doesn't really penetrate. or they have talked about policies. and the policies i think i saw you nod your head. i have real questions about whether policies that are even targeted policies on criminal justice reform or other things that disproportionately affect african-american communities whether that is the ticket to

ride with african americans for elizabeth warren say, i have questions. i don't know. maybe it will but i don't think it is going to be enough to suddenly have 30% of the african-american vote in south carolina. >> here is the bigger thing. he has a bigger challenge than some of these other people. black voters are some of the most sophisticated voters in the country. we look at how white people behave and determine if that is going to make the candidate we like work. people didn't like barack obama until they saw he could win over white people in o oklahoma. the rest of white america is not going to vote for him. he has a bigger challenge. america could vote for a white woman. that is why elizabeth warren is doing so much better among african-american women influences right now. pete needs this more than other people. warren is getting retweeted by comedians. people know who beto o'rourke is. pete has a unique challenge. i don't think they have the same challenge as him. >> don't under estimate when he does a show like showtime or comes to a conference like ours. yes, it does penetrate in the

sense that he may not penetrate but the people he is standing with, we penetrate. >> right. >> and if we're saying they're acceptable it gives them some kind of image of, well, we can at least hear them. you're dealing with members of my organization or whatever watching "politics nation" so it gives you something where people normalize you because you know them. they penetrate and they're saying this is credible. and a mistake, a lot of progressive white candidates make, karine and i have had this conversation, they try to stand on their own and never get accredit by people that have credibility just standing with them. they start thinking they can speak not only to black people, after two black meetings they think they speak for black people. >> isn't it also true that bad news travels faster? if he knocked himself out, i mean -- >> absolutely. >> i think if he had gone and

failed it would have penetrated all the way through the bone. >> absolutely. >> and so -- >> it does travel much faster. and in our community my mother used to say that bad news is out the door before good news gets its pants on. >> yes. >> maybe your mother knew my mother. >> we were greek. all right. again, no one is going anywhere. this is too good. after the break, from delusions of supporters where protesters actually stood to a fox news interview taped in the cemetery where heroes were laid to rest to angry tweets about bette midler donald trump's european tour was unprecedented and not in good ways. we'll assess the diplomatic fallout after the break. -and we welcome back gary,

who's already won three cars, two motorcycles, a boat, and an r.v. i would not want to pay that insurance bill. [ ding ] -oh, i have progressive, so i just bundled everything with my home insurance. saved me a ton of money. -love you, gary! -you don't have to buzz in. it's not a question, gary. on march 1, 1810 -- [ ding ] -frédéric chopin. -collapsing in 226 -- [ ding ] -the colossus of rhodes. -[ sighs ] louise dustmann -- [ ding ] -brahms' "lullaby," or "wiegenlied." -when will it end? [ ding ] -not today, ron.

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scratcher. he's what the president is focused on back to the states. quote, for all the money we're spending, nasa shouldn't be talking about going to the moon. they should be focused on the much bigger things we're doing, including mars, of which the moon is a part. psychologic scroll back up. wait, wait, wait. defense and science exclamation point. our friend matt miller puts whatever that was against the backdrop of this bizarreo world. so this week trump it happened his feud with a dead man, picked a new one with bette midler. said he didn't serve in vietnam because it was far away and the samoan part of mars. cool, cool. >> i got nothing. >> the moon was part of mars? >> let me see that again.

>> i swear, i spent about two hours on this this afternoon, and i'm telling you, you can focus on that tweet for two hours and there it is. i swear, you're going to come up empty. you're going to come up empty. >> what's their number? i mean, seriously. >> there's sometimes if you're drunk or high enough you can figure out what he's talking about. okay, i see it now. this one doesn't work. >> no, no, there was no way. i watch this whole european vacation presidential things that he did with his family. >> big ben, parliament. >> yeah, yeah. parliament. the level -- we talk all the time about how candidates don't always necessarily do with the abroad. but, dude you've been at this job three years now. you should be better at the way you're interacting, insult the one american member of the royal family, meghan markle, and then going on and on and on. it is amazing to me thousand alternative viewers we talk

about can still respect someone who consistently fails at the most simplistic ways. >> this man thinks the moon is part of wars. >> we landed on the moon. >> forget about going to the moon, that's 50 years ago. the moon is part of mars. let's go to mars where the moon is a part of, but don't go to the moon. if you can figure that out, come on. >> it's all a condo swap. it's in the mars development now. >> i have no idea. please don't ask me about the tweet. i don't know. when i think about his -- >> in the old days when i would do "morning joe," please don't ask me about the palestinians, i didn't read that. now my guests are like, please don't ask me about the new tweet. >> going back to what we saw in the u.k. this week, i mean, it really is just a travel circus

of chaos and incompetence. the worry that i have is he has damaged our reputation so much that it's going to take years to repair. jason, you were talking about has he not learned, but he doesn't care. it's the pomp and circumstance. that's what he wants. he wants the pageantry and be treated like a king. anything else, it's all about his personal politics. >> let me ask you a serious question. i put this question to the table a couple days ago and i got radio silence. what's wrong with him? i remember the interviews he did with you at the beginning of the circus. there's more going on. a friend of his described him as really tired by the job. you've interviewed him a few times. what's going on? >> i think if you look at his howard stern interviews, you look at the things from the '80s

and '90s and early 2000s, they're a world different than how he conducts himself now. if you read the interviews when he gives a print interview, you look at the transcript, and it is just -- i mean, word salad is the wrong way to describe it. he has a hard time not just prosecuting a complex argument, but finishing a sentence. that's a coherent single sentence with an object, subject, verb, he doesn't do that very well. and that is now how he was 20 years ago, not. you can look on youtube and the old speeches. whatever you thought of him, he was a relatively coherent person giving coherent interviews. if you met him at a backyard barbecue, you would say, i'm sorry about your father or uncle or whatever. i had an aunt with alzheimer's or i've seen what dementia is.

you know what it's like to be in the white house, the amount of pressure, the job, even if you're trump or disconnected from most governing realities, the pressure of the stress, the strain, those are things that are impacted. >> most of all, though, they reveal the person for better and worse. it's an x-ray. we're going to sneak in our last break. we'll be right back. ry family and it really shows. with all that usaa offers why go with anybody else? we know their rates are good, we know that they're always going to take care of us. it was an instant savings and i should have changed a long time ago. it was funny because when we would call another insurance company, hey would say "oh we can't beat usaa" we're the webber family. we're the tenney's we're the hayles, and we're usaa members for life. ♪ get your usaa auto insurance quote today.

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if we're heading to the little girls and boys room to do just that. my thanks to the panel. thank you so much for watching. i apologize if anyone was offended by our language. >> me too. >> that does it for our hour. i'll see you back here monday for "deadline: white house" at 4:00 p.m. ♪ [ cheers and applause ] i'm chris matthews live from the klondike theater at fresno state at