close out the day, mike. >> we've just heard an astounding thing. the supreme court makes a ruling. the president of the united states tells his justice department basically, you know, i don't care about the ruling. figure out a way around it. it's unheard of. >> that's where we are. that does it for us this morning. we'll be back tomorrow morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks so much, mika, thanks joe. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle. this morning we begin with breaking news. charges against by lone narrow jeffrey epstein are expected to be unsealed at any moment after the registered sex offender was arrested over the weekend. sources tells nbc news epstein could face multiple charges in connection with federal sex trafficking allegations. the 66-year-old hedge fund manager allegedly paid girls as young as 14 years old for massages and various sex acts and for recruiting other girls to join the ring.

epstein is behind bars today but scheduled to appear in federal court right here in new york city in just a few hours. but if you don't remember who jeffrey epstein is, let's take a step back and remember this man. jeffrey epstein began his career as an options trader for bear stearns back in 1976, advising rich clients on tax strategies. his success catapulted him to becoming the primary investor and money manager forle les weeksman. epstein used his wealth and success to establish political and social contacts around the world. here is just a few of the famous names on his list. it includes president trump, former president bill clinton, attorney alan dershowitz and prince an did you. after a 2008 deal allowed him to plead guilty to much lesser state charges in florida of

soliciting and procuring a person under 18 for prostitution. epstein served just 13 months behind bars and most of it was on a work release program in a private wing of a county jail. where he got to leave six days a week to work in his own office. he was required to reach financial settlements with dozens of his victims, of course he can do he's a by lone injuil. that deal was overseen by current labor secretary, a member of president trump's cabinet, alexander acosta. acosta has defended the plea deal as appropriate under those set of circumstances. the deal details were brought into light in a series of reports that came from "the miami herald" last year triggering intense scrutiny. back in february a federal judge ruled that prosecutors led by secretary acosta violated the

rights of epstein's alleged victims. after two of them sued the government for not telling them about the deal until it was already finalized. our team of nbc reporters is covering all of the angles of this extraordinary story right here in nyc. tom winter and stephanie goss both outside of the courthouse where epstein will appear very soon. tom, we're waiting to see if these charges will be unsealed. if they are, what exactly could we learn? >> reporter: well, i think you laid it out there perfectly. the bottom line is we anticipate these charges here today will detail sex trafficking allegations that come from 2002 to 2005. there's no statute of limitations concern here so the u.s. attorney's office which is located behind me off of this shoulder, they are the people that will be bringing this case here today. what we expect to know is that some sort of nexus to new york. as we know it's detailed he sfien has been investigated by

the u.s. attorney's office in the southern district of florida, in miami they uncovered a significant amount of evidence and had specific paths or charges to prosecution. they signed that nonprosecution agreement. so what we'll find out today what is the nexus to new york and specifically were any of the victims brought here to new york city to engaging these illegal acts with jeffrey epstein and that's the reason why charges can be brought here in new york today, nonprosecution agreement that you referenced was specific to the southern district of florida so we assume that and there will be a challenge over there, but we assume that that's the reason why this case is being brought forward here today. so at some point those charges should be unsealed and we'll get more detail and clarity on the quote dozens of victims according to our reporting that are expected to be detailed here today. >> dozens of victims. people are also inned to hear who the dozens of people in epstein's ring.

stephanie, he's set to appear in court in just a few hours. what exactly can we expect? >> reporter: pewell, we're expecting a bail hearing and there's a big question whether he'll be allowed out at all. will he be given bail? this guy has spent some time for sex crimes in prison before. he has the means and the money to potentially flee. so that's certainly going to couple. a big question. you already have u.s. senator ben sasse calling on the government to keep him in jail. be interesting to see what the federal judge will do here. the other thing that is really worth pointing out here is the dichotomy that you have going on where you have federal prosecutors in the southern district of florida arguing in court that that nonprosecution agreement should stand while you have federal prosecutors up here in the southern district of new york saying he should go to prison and with these charges

for years and years if he's found guilty of them. >> stephanie and tom, as soon as this thing is unsealed please come back. we want the details. let's bring into the conversation msnbc contributor and former u.s. attorney barbara mcquaid and msnbc legal analyst and former prosecutor who has prosecuted sex crimes. cynthia, talk to us about the deal that was reached back in 2008 because people keep asking why on earth would jeffrey epstein have gotten such a sweetheart deal? the deal gave him immunity to any potential co-conspirators. i just rattled off a who's who power list from a prince to a current president to a former president and a ceo who all knew jeffrey epstein very well. what would these new charges mean for anyone in his ring? >> first of all let me agree with you the deal was a sweetheart deal bordering on a scam. the federal prosecutors in the

united states attorney's office drew up a 53-page indictment and they were ready to go. then suddenly acosta shows up with his buddies and he goes and meets with epstein's lawyers off site not even in the u.s. attorney's office so no one could see him. they cut deal. then when you read the emails back and forth between epstein's lawyers and the u.s. torn's office they are basically differential to them. is this going to be okay? >> just for our audience not everybody knows kirkland and ellis. what do you mean -- >> prosecutors put together a 53-pale document ready to roll and then what happened? then acosta got involved. it's hard to know exactly what happened because they are still not talking there's a lot of secrecy. acosta was involved. he met with epstein's lawyers offsite. they went somewhere elsewhere no one could see them. they cut a deal.

all these emails which "the miami herald" bless their heart have published. and the u.s. -- the doj lawyer, the u.s. attorney's office lawyers are back and forth with epstein's lawyers and actually differential. i've never seen anything like that. i was never differential like that. is this okay? can we release this? et cetera, et cetera. then the crime victims act requires, the united states attorney's office to tell the victims they are about to cut a deal and this guy will get essentially federal immunity and a slap on the wrist in state court. they didn't tell them. >> have we heard from the prosecutors who -- >> there's not a straight answer out of them. i'm just telling you. there's not a straight answer. and that's why it's so important the independence of the southern district of new york and so important. the doj is doing an investigation into this. the problem is for the inspector general acosta no longer works

for doj so they don't have any authority. they don't have subpoena power. and there's a limit to what the doj inspector general can do. that's why we have to put our justice hope and eggs in the southern district of new york basket and hope they can right this wrong. >> barbara, why can they do this now? this agreement of reached in 2008. where did this new indictment come from? >> it would have to relate to different criminal charges. the southern district of florida can only bind the united states to crimes committed within its venue, within the southern district of florida. if these are different crimes properly venued in the southern district of new york then separate charges can be filed. there's no statute of limitations for child sex exploitation and sex trafficking and so if there are crimes that occurred somewhere in new york, in manhattan, for example, where jeffrey epstein had his

residence, those could be separate charges that could be charged separately regardless what happens with the investigation into the resolution of the miami charges. >> what should it tell us, is in think, a that these new charges are being handled by the public corruption unit? >> that's a good question. it could mean a lot or it could mean nothing. what it could mean is that some public official is bound into this somehow. it could be, that person could be a co-conspirator. that person could be a john. but we don't know. we won't know until today. and we -- >> hold on. definitively, isn't a john a co-conspirator? >> not necessarily. could be just -- not necessarily. because the crime is the enticement and bringing of the kids. so, no, not necessarily. remember, there are charges now

which needed to be filed because he just came back into the country and they obviously felt a need to executive a search warrant. that doesn't mean they can't supersede and have more charges later. >> barbara, how is this not considered double jeopardy? these are new and different cases and what does it tell you because this is being handled by the public corruption unit. >> you know, for every incident and every victim of sex trafficking it's a different crime. so even if he were charged with the same nature of sex trafficking as was resolved in the florida case, if there are different acts, different incidents, different victims occurring in the new york case then there's no double jeopardy bar to any of that. the public corruption assignment of this case is really intriguing to me. you mentioned, stephanie, that there was immunity given to co-conspirators out of the florida case which is incredibly unusual.

i never heard of anything like that happening. >> why would that happen? what's the reasoning? help us understand. why would you give immunity to the co-conspirators. if i'm acosta, what would be my motivation to do that? >> i don't know other than to resolve the case and it sounds like epstein he very much had people he wanted to protect. so it was important that immunity be granted. highly unusual to grant immunity to others to resolve the case of a particular defendant. >> he's the defendant who was getting a lesser charge and only 13 months in jail. why would you then sweeten the deal by helping him in giving immunity to these other people, from the standpoint of the law, why would the u.s. government want to do that? >> highly unusual. you know, there are bargaining positions and each side gives up something when they want to resolve a case. but to give up something 0

relating to others is unusual. the involvement of the public corruption unit in the southern district of new york does, i think, at least raise the question of are there co-conspirators that might be on the horizon who are public officials and i think that as cynthia said we may or may not find that out today. my guess is not. this is a tailored charge to get epstein in the door, to get him a lawyer and get him talking about whether he wants to cooperate to provide names and former about others. >> interesting day. ladies, please stick around in case we get more updates on this case. we'll come right back to you. we'll take a quick break. up next the president defending the conditions migrants are being held in saying well it's better than where they came from. and later, why did joe biden make a very public apology over the weekend. but first, we must talk about this. this great win for our nation. the u.s. women's soccer team now back as world cup champions as

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immigration officials are reportedly ready to launch raids targeting thousands of undocumented immigrants who are here. a move that could add even more train to a system that's struggling to handle the migrants already being detained. kelly o'donnell is at the white house.

help us understand these raids. the president wants them to happen. he set a deadline last saturday for democrats saying you got to make a deal with me or the raids are happening. that's now expired. so what's next? >> reporter: well on friday as the president was leaving for the weekend i asked him about this. he said fairly soon. but he quarrelled with the use of the word raid. he said this is a law enforcement act where people have gone through the process and been determined by the courts to not be able to remain in the u.s. could be subject to this forced deportation. the president is saying that. now, of course, the two weeks and deadline you talked about was a tweet where he gave a bit of a previous as a means of trying to negotiate with democrats. at least that's how he described it on twitter. certainly how democrats led by nancy pelosi have wanted to come to some resolution about this and it has been an ongoing fight. so to get a sense of where this is happening one of the president's newest members of the administration, ken cuccinelli was speaking about

this over the weekend. he's in charge of one of the departments that relates to this and he painted the picture of what's to come. >> they are ready to perform their mission which is to go and find and detain and then deport the approximately 1 million people who have final removal orders, they've been all the way through the due process and have final removal orders. who among those ill welcome back targeted for this particular effort or not is really just information kept within i.c.e. at this point. >> reporter: so a question of discretion there about who among this list of 1 million as it's described by cuccinelli would be forcibly removed from the united states. this, of course, is also political in the sense of it's message to the president's base that egetting tough on immigration and at the same time democrats say this causes widespread fear in the immigrant communities that is

disproportionate to this kind of court related action. that it's really meant to frighten immigrant communities and that's one of the things that's part of the political drama in all of this. >> kelly, thank you so much. joining the conversation, not one but two pulitzer prize winners. ashley parker and syndicated columnist george will. george is the author of the new book "the conservative sensibility." and chris wilson is with us and my dearest friend eddie, a professor at princeton university. the president tweeted recently that if migrants don't like the conditions don't come. is this a deterrent strategy, if you don't like it here, stay where you're from? >> it's everything. part of what the president and some people in his administration do say is, yes, this is about deterrence, that the undocumented immigrants coming here are breaking the law

simply by entering and it shouldn't be hospitable for them to come and this is a deterrent. they point out correctly there's a crisis on the border that needs to be solved. also in sort of a large part as kelly said a political issue. this is something that whether the president has been threatening these i.c.e. raids for a while, we have to wait and see what he does, whether he does them or not these threats, this hard-line rhetoric, this kind of red meat, anti-immigrant sentiment from him is fantastic for him to churn up his base ahead of the 2020 elections, and this is what he wants to do. whether or not he achieves his goals and takes these actions. keep in mind he hasn't built that wall on the southern border. talking about it and being tough sort of help him try to demonstrate to his base that he's a fighter and this is an issue that he cares about. >> chris, does it help the president politically? the president's base for the most part is bullet proof. they will stick with him no matter wants. he needs and wants to expand

that base if he gets re-elected. taking this hard-line approach is it a winning move for him? one nerving until grant community doesn't matter him to. he's focused on voters. >> your point is right. the fact his base is ginned up no matter what. he doesn't do much more on this issue or any other issue for them to get excited about him. i do think to the overall point you have to recognize that there is a crisis and the conditions in which we're living under, something has to be done. mcallen, texas, in the past year has apry hended 264,000 people crossing the border. so it's not sustainable from a standpoint of allowing them to taken there. what ken cuccinelli has talked about they went through the process, gone through asylum, have not received it for whatever reason and one reason is loopholes created by congress. to give you one example. in 20141% of single men crossing the border had children. last year 50% of single men had children with them. what you have people who are now

gaming the system for purposes of being able to stay in the country. that's what's creating the crisis. we have to close this loophole. >> people gaming the system, not a crisis in the northern triangle, it's not failing governments lack of jobs and gang violence? >> our economy here too that's pulling them in. those things factor into it. you have to fix all of it together. the other thing i'll point out one thing democratic state representative from texas asked last week to dhs what do we do for people who want to help. there's no system to receive private donations. it could allow every person in america that's disturbed to take action today. >> the policy is cruel. when we talk about deterrence, you know, if you don't like it, stay where you are. i think the policy at its heais

immoral. when you combine that, stephanie, with an announcement of i.c.e. raids and what that means for folk who live in communities, children whose fathers and mothers and aunts and uncles are undocumented and what sends through that community, right? the whole idea is fear and it's cruel. it seems to me it runs couldn'ter to the best of who we take ourselves to be. instead it becomes in some ways a billboard for who we actually are. america traffics in cruelty. and, you know, i'm tired of giving the trump administration the benefit of the doubt. when we think about their immigration policy it is rooted in a deep insecurity about the demographic shifts in this country and acting it on a level that should be alarming to anybody who is committed to the ideal of who americans are. >> george will, weigh in on

this. chris is saying what we need the to do is have congress act and close some loopholes. given how divided things are right now is there a snowball's chance in hell we'll see any bipartisanship? >> i bet on hell not the snowball. seven years ago, actually six years ago in 2013 there was the gang of eight immigration bill. comprehensive reform. that is they were going to solve everything all at once. the bill was 1197 pages and it went nowhere because we don't do comprehensive gracefully in the congress. the president may be ginning up his base but no one, no one of won the presidency with his base alone. so the question is what would the ancillary effects be of a massive enforcement measure of a million people rounded up? i don't think the american people have any where what the video and the newscast would be

like for police measures be necessary to extract one out of 11, only one out of 11 of themi country. it would add to national embarrassment. >> chris, who do these raids work for? is it for president trump's voters saying there are too many people here using our resources and going our schools. last i checked we got 6 million open jobs in this country, specifically for low or no skilled workers where if you talked to small and large businesses, they are saying we're dying for workers. it helps our economy to have them. >> to your original question about what is causing the mass immigration -- >> that's not what i asked. why would the president -- the raids, who does this serve? who is saying to the president yes this is the right thing to do for our country besides just make america great again put us

first? let's go technically, who do these raids serve? >> if you have a billion people like ken cuccinelli talked about went through the process of going through asylum. >> i'm not talking about them. >> the purpose is to remove them from the country because they have not come through legally. if you want to come to the united states you do it legally. not just by finding some kid you can traffic across the border. >> that's an overstatement. >> come on, now. >> half of the single men coming across the border have a child with them? >> you're trying to say that the reason why they are migrates is because they are just taking kids to use that as an excuse. >> they are trying to get across. >> the way in which you're putting it is to create a kind of causal line between let me take advantage of this kid in order to get in the country. that's the problem. if you look at it that way your heart doesn't open. if you look at it in another way

there's a crisis then you begin to respond. >> there's 144,000 people a month. 2 million a year. what do you do with them? >> what do you do with them? you open your heart. >> okay. that's what i suggest. we should be able to do something and we can't by congress. that's a simple change. >> put them in detention centers where they get the flu and die. what does that mean. >> george will, to that point, it's not like we're not spending the money. we're spending billions of dollars at the border, yet the living conditions are deplorable. where is the disconnect? a hard-line immigration person might say spend the money on the american people. we're spending the money. why isn't it actually going anywhere useful? >> it's very hard to deal with massive floss of populations on this scale. no one does it gracefully. they didn't do it in europe.

they off loaded the problem to turkey saying you solve the problem for us. no society has yet figured out how to handle this. every society knows control of the border is an attribute. we do have 6 million unfilled jobs and people clamoring to get in to get work. that doesn't answer the question of whether the kind of people coming now are the kind of people we need. 10,000 baby boomers retire every day into the medicare/social security retirement system. what that means is we need to replenish the workforce. we need immigrants as much as until grants need the united states. before we do that we have to control a human rights crisis which we don't know how to handle gracefully. >> my goodness, obviously a v-very complicated problem. ashley parker thank you very much. gentlemen, stick around. we have more to cover. next kamala harris and elizabeth warren both trying to

capitalize on post-debate bump. do their fundraising numbers back up the perceived momentum? we'll dig into that next. g intot that i won the "best of" i casweepstakes it. and i get to be in this geico commercial? let's do the eyebrows first, just tease it a little. slather it all over, don't hold back. well, the squirrels followed me all the way out to california! and there's a very strange badger staring at me... no, i can't believe how easy it was to save hundreds of dollars on my car insurance with geico. uh-huh, where's the camel? "mr. big shot's" got his own trailer. ♪ wheeeeeee! believe it! geico could save you 15% or more on car insurance. you should know the location of a decent bathroom.ation, my gut says, take new benefiber healthy balance. this daily supplement helps maintain digestive health naturally

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two democrats surges in polls and a whole lot of buzz over the holiday week. here's a big question did those surges translate into what they really need, dollars. big administersing bucks? we know kamala harris raised for the second quarter czars 12 million that matched her first quarter. we're still waiting to get figures from elizabeth warren's camp. two men on the road with the candidates, garrett hague in new hampshire. garrett, let's start with you. senator warren's campaign. she's been considered a front-runner for some time now. how far seen her campaign change strategy or energy in the last week since the debate? >> reporter: it's been interesting. what we're starting to see is the national attention catching up with what we've seen on the ground for warren is the base of the party has loved, cosmopolitans to love elizabeth warren. she has been drawing good crowds on the road, enthusiastic crowds

and making the point to stay and talk with each and referee i run and taking selfies since this campaign got started. now you see the national attention drop in. so for the last week she's been in reno, nevada the most overlooked of the early states had a big event there. thieves in a houston, texas. was well received at the essence festival in new orleans. be back in the first in the nation new hampshire early primary state today. a state where she needs to do well and frankly needs to do better than she has been doing. she's in third place here in the average of the polling here. that's the next door state to massachusetts. it's a place where her numbers will need to improve. you talked about fundraising. another area where she needs to improve in the first radiator. warren raised only $6 million. she has foregone the fundraising circuit. she's not doing those high dollar donor events or closed

door furs indraising. a good talking point but won't keep the lights on. she needs to pay for what's a very sophisticated ground operation here in new hampshire and iowa. we expect to see those numbers soon but has to be better than the $6 million. >> she's got a serious ground game, a major team there, a whole of former obama teammates. vaughn, let's talk kamala harris. she had some extraordinary stand out moments in the debate performance. many people immediately after said we want to see kamala harris go after president trump in a debate. if she could go after joe biden, someone she's known for years and with the precision she did wait until she rips it against the president. are you seeing any follow up to that in the last week? are voters feeling more confident or excited that she could be the candidate to stand up to trump?

>> reporter: yes. over the course of the last week at campaign events from iowa to new orleans to here in south carolina where she had two events yesterday, we're in marion south carolina where she should arrive, we're hearing engagement. people perked up their ears. what harbor showed was a willingness to be the cane in this race that draws a contrast with joe, whether it be on the 1994 crime bill, hyde amendment, obama administration deportation policy or when it came to calling out joe biden for working with segregationists back in the senate. what that conversation is looking like with voters is one of the owners here, mr. abrams, somewhere around here, he just took off. mr. abrams was telling me his concern of that -- he was telling me he was concerned what ultimately does that lead to in this race. he said joe biden did what he had to do back in the 1970s and 1980s to retain his seat and now it's a conversation going forward. you talk to just as many voters

they appreciate kamala harris drawing those contrasts, the history is important and to be able to recognize one's past. kamala harris just said yesterday that for her it's a matter of understanding the depth of somebody's career in not just -- not just certain key moments. >> thank you both so much. up next my panel is back for our next discussion. former vice president joe biden and his apology. his democratic opponents are calling it a first step. here's a question. did he need to apologize and what does it tell us about joe biden going forward? g forward? my doctors again orderedd? me to take aspirin, and i do. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. listen to the doctor. take it seriously. but allstate actually helps you drive safely... with drivewise. it lets you know when you go too fast... ...and brake too hard.

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and it's gonna blow your bloomin' mind! can't imagine doing it any other way. this is caitlin dickerson from the new york times. this isn't the only case. very little documentation. lo que yo quiero estar con mi hijo. i know that's not true. and the shelters really don't know what to do with them. i just got another person at d.h.s. to confirm this. i have this number. we're going to publish the story.

folks, now was i wrong a few weeks ago to somehow give the impression to people that i was crazy to successful oppose those meantime and again. yes, i was. i regret it. i'm sorry for any of the pain or misconception i may have caused anybody. >> 2020 democratic front-runner joe biden appearing before a mostly african-american audience in south carolina over the weekend. now expressing regret over his recent comments praising his past work with segregationists in the senate. back with me for this discussion, george will, chris wilson and eddie. biden stood firm after he made the comments. he didn't reverse course when kamala harris called him out on

it and he is now. originally his point was, i'm not supporting these guys, i never did. but in order to get things done i was willing to work with the worst of the worst. that's the point he made over and over. now he's apologizing. what do you think this is? >> he's probably worried about his numbers in terms of african-american voters although they seem to be holding strong in south carolina. but he's also seeing the rise in polling data with kamala harris and others. it's having an impact with some voters shifting. but we're very early in the game. it's really important for him to understand that a certain kind of politics that he trying to represent, people had to bear the about your of those compromises. right? so i want to make this general point, stephanie. over the history of our country we've made compromises with some very ugly people. and those compromises have oftentimes been around the issue of race. we can think about, you know,

whether this revolution of war, reconstruction or what. part of what has happened is in the midst of making compromises with these ugly actors we've had to bear the burden of those compromises. and what we're saying now in this moment is that that's not the kind of politics we need. we have to figure out where we're going to draw lines in term of who we're going to deal with. as a mississippian, james eastland is a monster. he's a monster to my mind. there's no way you can redeem him. fine appeal to him in a moment in which you had to deal with him. let's double down on his position of bussing which was more nuance and complicated. it was bad, i think. that's all he needed to do was say this two weeks ago, and we would be somewhere else. >> george he said it now. he said it over the weekend. does that mean joe biden can put the controversy behind him and move forward or will he be plagued by this idea his type of politics of can we all just get

along ain't going to work in the future? >> well, once you embark on the full grovel tour of apologies, it's very hard to know where it will stop. he's now today a man with his ear firmly on the ground but as winston churchill said it's very difficult to look up to someone in that position. when he came to the congress of the united states, when he came to the senate, the senate was run by conservative southern democrats. mcclellan of arkansas, dennis of eastland mississippi, russell of georgia, et cetera. he has a good case to make that he could not have functioned unless he did business with these chairman. but it's very difficult to see where he stops now as he's done an about-face on hyde amendment, crime bill, bussing. i can't think of a policy in the last 50 years more broadly

disliked than forced bussing to achieve racial balance in schools. and now he's even apologizing for his opposition to that. it's astonishing. >> chris, i'm afraid eddie's head might fall off the rest of his body and i don't want that to happen. >> the only thing about tissue of bussing it was disliked because a lot of white people in this country did not want black kids to go school with them. so there was some black folk who did not to send their kids into dens of hatred. we keep talking about the bussing issue as if it didn't work because bussing, something inherent in the policy itself was wrong. what happened, what was clear, what happened in boston, what happened in pontiac, what happened all around the country is white communities did not want to integrate their schools. when we saw bussing work in places like char lorkts we saw the community come together and make a decision that they wanted to educate their kids. their public cool system would collapse if they continued this act ever resistance.

in all other places the reason why bussing did not work is because white people did not want their kids go to school with black people. period. >> i'm going to give the last point on that. chris, let's change topics. justin amash, he just threat republican party. before doing so he was the only house republican who was pushing the idea to call for an impeachment of president trump. he's now saying he's not ruling out a potential 2020 run. if and how does that complicate things for the president's re-election campaign? >> i think it doesn't complicate it at all. what it will do is help him. republicans have scenemens left over from 2016 who define themselves as never trumpers are looking for associate else to vote for. if joe biden is the nominee they might be able to vote for him. they won't vote for aft elizabe warren or a kamala harris or

bernie sanders. >> why not harris? >> she's too far left. >> in what regard. >> where do i start? >> tell me. what policy is too far left? to say bernie sanders, kamala harris and elizabeth warren, i get -- >> bernie sanders is too old. >> but i get bernie and elizabeth warren. i just want to under -- >> you think there's that much separation ideologically between the three of them. i mention them they are the three front-runners. if you only go through each one kamala harris' position. she took position against private insurance which most americans. >> she rolled it back. >> she may roll it back if she drops in the polls. the fact is to make that comparison is because of the color of her skin is really a little bit too 1960 for my taste and not a fair statement. when it gets down to it justin amash factor is almost irrelevance with one exception.

that's the state of michigan. he's someone who can appeal in michigan. if michigan is close like it was in 2016, justin amash could tilt the state to the democratic nominee. justin amash will lose the republican primary and that's why he switched parties. >> george will, i want to read this tweet by professor and author tom nichols. he writes the idea that a third-party can take votes away from trump assumes that the trump vote isn't a cult and that the their votes aren't set in stone. what do you think? >> i still think that if justin amash ran as the presidential candidate of the libertarian party which on its past performance now is, i believe, eligible to be on all 50 ballots this year, go back to 2000 and the nader vote in florida, go back to 2016 and the vote for the green candidate in michigan,

probably in pennsylvania and wisconsin as well, in close elections, in close states, a third-party candidate can make an enormous difference, unintended differencenader's case, for example, in florida. but the idea that this would be negligible i think mr. nichols is right that a third-party candidate isn't going to do much for the trump base. again, trump's base will not elect him president. >> all right. thank you so much, george, chris, eddie. you all make me smarter every time i'm here. >> now a different kind of breaking news in washington, d.c. this time it's on the weather front. a flash flood emergency. look at these images. people standing on top of their cars as floodwaters are rising. bill karins can with me. >> i have seen pictures of

waterfalls in train stations, numerous pictures of firefighters rescuing people off their cars. some people swam from their cars to get to higher ground in the area. we had this thunderstorm move over the region. we have had as much as three to four inches of rainfall in a half hour to 45 minutes. there's been a shutdown at the airports as you would expect. heavy rain is on the south side of the beltway and heading -- going to be slowly heading out of the region. the worst of the flash flooding is happening right now. the flash flood emergency. when it is life threatening, it is called a flash flood emergency. that is in effect for the washington, d.c. area until 11:15 this morning. >> thank you so much. the indictment for epstein revealed a few minutes ago. cynthia back with us.

and, tom, what can you tell us? >> reporter: okay. so the indictment unsealed and provided by the u. s. attorneys' office just moments ago makes it clear and under ts scores oscor reporting. epstein had a vast network of underaged girls that he would use to perform these quote, unquote massages as they say which turned out to be either some sort of sexual abuse in some sense that the massages these girls were ordered to undress, these underaged girls. and really the key here and the question people were talking about why could this case be brought in new york, they are specific and numerous examples, according to the indictment where jeffrey epstein was involved with these under-aged girls. here in new york city, upper east side mansion as it is called here in the indictment. a mansion that the federal government seeks to seize and forfeit as a result of this indictment and the charges brought forth today.

sex trafficking is the major charge here. what they were able to do is draw a nexus to new york but only with acts that occurred here but that several other unnamed employees, several unnamed employees of jeffrey epstein in this indictment that they made calls on behalf of epstein to set up the under-aged encounte encounters. they were made from here in new york. so that gives the federal prosecutors, the u. s. attorneys' office, just behind me on my right, we will now have a press conference at 11:00 a.m. to discuss the charges. jeffrey berman, assistant director of the fbi bill sweeney will be giving a press conference in just a little bit. and they are expecting to go perhaps into a little bit more detail about this indictment and the charges that are expected or that have now been brought here in new york today. jeffrey epstein expected to be in a courtroom later on. underscoring the reporting the last couple days since he was taken into custody in new jersey saturday afternoon, that there

were numerous victims, dozens of victims in a kind of a fast network according to prosecutors this they had for the under-aged girls and the sexual contact he had with them. >> the indictment says epstein and others, known and unknown, co conspirators, conspired to commit sex acts -- or sex trafficking of minors. do you think we will find out the name of these people? >> reporter: yes, i think we will at some point. we will not only find out their names but employee number one, employee number two and employee number three. an interesting piece of this indictment is you will notice that the allegation is the girls, some of them were 14. that's a big deal because the mandatory minimum is different for 14 as opposed to 16. it goes up to 15 years mandatory minimum. >> barbara, what's your take here? >> reporter: well, it's interesting, the southern district of new york was able to

capture not only conduct that occurred within new york but it also includes all the florida conduct by framing it as a conspiracy, which is a really interesting legal theory. we talked in the earlier segment how they would have to have conduct that was separate from what was already resolved in florida and the way they achieved it was by charging it all as part of a conspiracy. they are not only going to be able to address all the kind that occurred in new york but all the conduct that occurred in florida. so it is really a very clever way to loop all of that conduct into this indictment. >> well, well, well. retaliate more yet to find out. tom, cynthia, barbara, thank you all so much. all right. we spoke moments ago about joe biden's apology. coming up, a member of the biden campaign will be here to talk about the campaign's reboot. the business of family time... ...and downtime.

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that wraps up this hour. i'm stephanie ruhle. i will see you again at 1:00 p.m. with my partner ali srel ci velshi. coming up more news with hallie jackson, who i hope in washington has an umbrella. >> we do, steph. we also have a lot of breaking news. not here in washington but up in new york. the indictment just dropping minutes ago against millionaire financier jeffrey epstein. 14 pages tough to read. they lay out what prosecutors say was a year answer long

string of sexual abuses against young girls. just he leareleased by the sout district of new york. one count of sex trafficking. charges coming less than a year you have seen repeatedly on this show. the "miami herald"'s jaw-dropping investigation into epstein's alleged crimes. he cut a plea deal with prosecutors in miami. registered as a sex offender and served only 13 months behind bars. so who is jeffrey epstein? he made a lot of money in the '70s and '80s working in finance, that paid his entrance fee into exclusive social services and political ones. donald trump back in 2002 called epstein a terrific guy. and records show former president bill clinton flew on one of epstein's planes more than once.