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tv   Up With David Gura  MSNBC  July 21, 2019 5:00am-7:00am PDT

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that will do it for me this hour. i "up" with david gurry sta ra st right now. >> this is "up." i'm david gura. we have new reporting on what happen ed behind the scenes when president trump attacked four congresswoman on twitter. and we have new reaction to the racist remarks from one of the lawmakers. >> we're going to stay right here. that's where we're going to go. we're not going anywhere. >> it's almost mueller time. the special counsel will be in the hot seat this week. and the chairman of the house intelligence committee tells nbc news how he and his colleagues are preparing for that pivotal
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testimony and what they expect to hear. >> bob mueller found the evidence of conspiracy insufficient. he made no notes on obstruction of justice. that tells us something. and we're just days away from the second democratic deba debate. and there's contrast between two of the most progressive candidates who will be standing side-by-side. >> will you go with warren? >> intelligence. >> it subpoena sunday, july 21st. if it's not bernie and warren, it's bernie and cardi b. >> look. i don't dance now. i make money moves. in fact, i would like to move because i'm a dog, i'm a flirt. >> ali mistal, and joined by jonathan alter, a columnist for
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"the daily beast." maria hinojosa and jonathan lamere covers the white house for the a.p. he's a nbc political analyst. let's begin with the details on president trump's racist attacks on members of congress. four reporters at "the washington post" talked to 26 white house aides, lawmakers and others, and president trump's aides do not think the president understood what he was doing when he fired off a string of racist tweets a week ago. to quote the piece, the president had been watching "fox and friends" after waking up. he acted impulsively, following his gut to the dark side of partisan politics. there's a response from the democratic candidates, including from kamla harris. >> i've personally been told that, go back to where you came from. you, too.
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and we took -- everybody raised their hands. right. right. and then, the back people are raising their hands, too. it is hateful and it has to stop. >> there's hardly any ethnic or racial group in the country that has not been told to go back where they came from. the phrase and the sentiment has reared its head repeatedly and is entwined in history. the no-nothing party that targeted irish and german immigrants. slaves were told to move back to africa. and the jim crow south there were signs like this one that read, this is klan country, love it or leave it. the mark twain line like history doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes. in recent months, the president has called it immigrants and detention facilities are full of
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migrants, men, women and children. as a professor who has studied this, every wave of immigration that gets in sees the next wave that is a threat. that's the wave that will take things away. jonathan alter, let me start with you. have you here because of a history of all of this. we have a president that's ignorant of history. he doesn't like to read books and steady history. >> well, you know, he sort of imbibed history maybe by osmosis, even if he doesn't read it. he's reprising recent history, america, love it or leave it. i think some older viewers will remember was a big deal in the late 1960s and early '70s. it was directed mostly at hippies, as they were called. but also, minorities that happened to be critical of the
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nixon administration. they were told leave. donald trump came from a family with a long line of racism. his father was arrested at a kkk demonstration in the 1920s. they discriminated against an can americans in his housing. he didn't have to study history to repeat these darker chapters. what's different, david, is we have never seen this level of hatred and nativism, from the oval office. i mean, never. we've had slave holders being presidents going back to the 19th century. they didn't talk this way. they weren't demagogues in this way. this is a real change. this is something new, when we have a president who rips the scab off these old wounds in american history, almost every day. >> he knows what he is doing
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here. >> yeah. >> if he doesn't grasp the historical resonance of what he's saying, he understands the ripping of the scab. >> he didn't know what he -- get out of here. the president knows he's racist. people say the racism is a distraction from all of the other stuff going of. racism is the policy of this administration. his attack on immigrants is not just illegal immigrants. it's all immigrants. the news was not that donald trump was a racist, that was proven with the central park five, with the birther debate. we know he's a racist. the news here, there's some white people that are willing to say, i don't know, maybe the president is kind of racist. that's only the thing that's
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happened differently. now that that's happened, what are the white people, who finally have figured out that trump is a racist, what are they willing to do about it? >> let's go to the reporting, jonathan, if we could. what's detailed in "the post" is kellyanne conway tries to spell this out for the president. the way to succeed this administration is to go along with whatever the president says and whatever direction he takes the administration. what's your sense of how this was reacted to? and the discomfort, the unease, on capitol hill. >> the president as he was leaving, talked about omar and said they weren't treating nancy pelosi with respect. and he said, i'm not sure where they're from. we're told that had stirred the
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pot. remember, we're coming off of a few days of democratic infights between the liberal congressmen and the speaker. he thought he was adding to that. >> that was the story. >> he was going to play that up. on sunday, i was part of the white house press pool in d.c., and we were loaded in the motorcade to go golfing. >> off to sterling, virginia, when those tweets landed. and the president hit the button, went golfing, came back, and basically, saw radio silence from other republicans, publicly. there were private conversations. but he saw himself, this is good. this is stirred up. and he kept doubling down. he did it that might and all week. we saw the moments that he was at the rally, and the send her back chants. he walked away and soaked it up the next day, after real blowback. and there was more blowback
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about the chants than the tweets. he condemned the tweets. the chants, that's not what i metropolitan. i was trying to stop it. the video proves otherwise. >> he was lying? >> he was. >> he was lying? okay. so people are, like, oh, my god, he's a racist. also, he was lying. >> the video contradicts his account. no question. after another 25 hours of coverage, he goes back. he never wants to upset his base. it's about the congresswoman again. it's the same pattern after charlottesville. he said there was blame on both sides. cleaned it up and went back and doubled down on his original position because he hates being pressured into apologizing or reversing himself. he always ends up where he wants to be. >> we talked before about the erosion of norms over and over.
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i will get you to comment on what jonathan alter said a moment ago. >> were you all born here? >> in the u.s., yes. >> queens. >> i always take my passport when i go into queens. so, i wasn't. you know, i am just thinking, first of all, there was a time when white men could have been told go back. i'm going to use a term to be offensive. it's w.a.p. it was used towards italian-americans, here in new york city. i was told in chicago, you never use that term. it stands for without papers. w.o.p., without papers. this is something that's been going on. yes, it's been here for a long time. i find it fascinating that people are just, elie, oh, my
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god, he's a racist. what more did you need to know? as someone born in mexico, it started right then. and people were saying to me, can you calm down, please, maria. we know you're mexican and you're taking it a little too personally. can you calm down and be a more objective journalist? and the problem is, when immigrants and women of color and journalists of color are told to calm down, we're looking at the canaries dieing in the mine and we're saying, you guys, pay attention, please. look what's happening. and then, they say, calm down, please. my point is, this is not just a donald trump thing, a bill clinton thing, an obama thing, a reagan thing. what we need to do is we need to be talking to each other about this. it will take each one of us to
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talk about our own immigrant background and the people in our lives. this policy stuff is the cloud and individuals will have to break this down. >> i want to interject here. i don't often read from the president's tweets. we want to be learning from history. we were talking about the way this proceeded over the course of the last week. here's the latest from the president, doubling down to use that trope. i don't believe the four congresswomen are capable of loving our country. they should apologize to america and israel for the hateful things they said. they are destroying the democrat party but are weak and insignificant people that can never destroy our great nation. want to get everyone's reaction to that. to note on all that has been said the last week, to see the seven days later, the same thing if not worst rhetoric from the president. >> he is not comfortable backing down. all he knows is how to be
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aggressive. we're going to see this before the election. democrats are the ones who are ringing our hands. we apologize for the mistakes we made. the sub text of that tweet is, it's okay to criticize america when you're white. >> make it great again. >> when he was running, he was trashing this country. he called it american carnage. he said the american dream is dead. the country is a mess. it's a wasteland. if you're not white or if you're a democrat, you can't criticize america. it's basically about him. now that he represents this country, any criticism of him, he sees as criticism of america. i am the state, is his basic view. but the sub text of this is that, if you're white, it's your country, your home. and somebody shouldn't come into your home and trash your place
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when they're in your home. if you're a critic, you're visiting this country. you're not entitled to the same ability to dissent as if you were native born. but the crazy thing, one more historical point, every one of those people chanting in north carolina, came from a family, if you go back two or three generations, that was told the same thing, whether they were irish, in the 1850s, you know, asian, in the 1880s. italian, greek, any -- jewish. all of them were told this, go home. send them back. the level of hypocrisy on the part of people who were supporting donald trump on this, knows no bounds. every one of them had ancestors
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who were subjected to this un-american language. >> they don't care. i want to go back to jonathan's reporting on this. this is a point that was made and i want to emphasize it. people are acting like this is a political strategy. a political strategy to elevate the congress people. this is not about political policy. this is not a brilliant strategy to wrap yourself in racism and bigot bigotry. that's like, if you put up a pretty girl on your website, it will get clicks. i'm not saying it won't work. it's disgusting. and we have to stop acting like this is a three-dimensional chess policy and call a thing a thing. he is being racist because racism works for his base. >> it's not just him. kellyanne conway asked a journalist, what is your ethnicity. it's not just him. i'm sorry, jonathan. i don't buy this at all.
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this is policy. all these people are like, we tried to tell him. >> this is the fight he wants. they make a perfect foil. he will have this campaign. fight white identity politics. >> jonathan alter, thank you for joining us. much more coming up, including how president trump is reshaping the country's courts. and one week since the i.c.e. raids were scheduled to start. first, the chairman of the house intelligence committee.
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this is "up." i'm david gura. and the long and winding investigation of campaign meddling is over. michael cohen was connected to secret payments made to two women. after disclosures of new documents, jay sekulow said, we're pleased that the investigations around the campaign finance allegations is closed. we maintained from the outset that the president never engaged in campaign finance violation. that holds hope hicks to new scrutiny. a congressional committee has new questions for her. all this comes as lawmakers prepare for testimony from robert mueller and wrestle with impeachment. adam schiff is one of them. he's the chairman of the house intelligence committee. he says he is undecided on
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impeachment. i am concerned about the message it sends that a president can engage in conduct like this and not be impeached in the house. i think about that a lot. but i'm concerned with the message of a senate acquittal. what does it mean to have aju adjudication that the conduct is not an impeachable offense. >> let's get a sense of where things stand with this campaign finance investigation. there were two documents here. this judge in new york, asking the documents be reacted and released. give a sense of what this means for hope hicks. not charged by federal prosecutors but a good deal of scrutiny by the house and others. this has taken twists and turns. cohen was thought to be the one
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that would bring this whole thing down. sdny is closing this week. their attorney general, bill barr may have been a member of this. i think it comes in to play, as you said. we need to focus on the backdrop here, too. it comes as democrats are wrestling with impeachment. there's a real divide here. and that's the division in the party is from. speaker pelosi is trying to keep the forces at bay. more and more democrats are strongly considering moving down the impeachment lane. and we have robert mueller coming on the public stage this week. this is the moment the president has been fearful of for nearly a year, when we first got reports that the investigation was about to wrap up, that he would sit before congress and take the
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oath. him saying those things and outlining them for the american people is real. this is a president that knows the power of images and visuals. he has a tv background. he stages all his own appearances that way. he is worried about what the model will have on the american people. >> a lot of people saying what is going on with the investigations? you see the way the white house has stymied them. there was an expect that more would be accomplished by now. we'll prep for the mueller thing in a little bit here. that's what a lot of democrats are saying, a lot of energy has been expended upon that. your reaction, to say that the investigation into this president and all that surrounds him. >> i was into the country for three weeks. completely disconnecting and coming right back in and taking -- >> the envy among the table is palpable. >> i was working. okay. you come back and it's like, more investigation.
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more information. i consider myself on what's going on. didn't we resolve? didn't we know these things? what's happening. i felt like, almost like a blur. right? we know this stuff intricately. i wanted to ask you a question. the words that i wrote down in front of me, mueller, bar, epstein. we know that mueller has a good friendship with barr. barr's father was a head of the dalton school that hired jeffrey epstein to teach math. and jeffrey epstein at dalton was perceived as having problems. was there a connection there? barr is in there.
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certainly, we can say this. barr and trump used to be friends. whether they are remains to be seen. you can't know if epstein played a roll in the last couple of weeks. the shadow of epstein is coming up. there's going to be more developments in the weeks to come, that will outline the potentially powerful men, and their connections to epstein, and the president of the united states, that were friends. >> i disagree with treating bill barr as anything approaching legitimate. he has shown to be trump's bather. his job is to sponge down the president and wipe away all of the legal problems that he has. there is clear evidence -- what else was he doing? he shows up. at that point, that's when the
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cohen investigation wraps down. we can call that a coincidence. but everything else barr has done shows that is not a coincidence. that's the point. the documents that were released because they closed the investigation down, shows that trump was all over these payments. i don't know anything about these payments. he knew all about the payments. the documents showed he knew about the payments. of course, if he had a reasonable attorney general, the sdny would be investigating. i pivot to the democratic debates. show me the democratic candidate that's committed to installing a real attorney general and reopening these investigations that barr has almost clear ly shut down for corrupt motives. warren is there, i know. that's what i want to hear about. up next, the president first promised raids to round up millions of immigrants. he scaled that back and said there would be roundups starting next sunday.
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he touts the success and there's questions of how and the degree to which they happened and how they led to a more generalized anxiety among immigrants in this country. immigrants in this country. -[ scoffs ] if you say so. ♪ -i'm sorry? -what teach here isn't telling you is that snapshot rewards safe drivers with discounts on car insurance. -what? ♪ -or maybe he didn't know. ♪ [ chuckles ] i'm done with this class. -you're not even enrolled in this class. -i know. i'm supposed to be in ceramics. do you know -- -room 303. -oh. thank you. -yeah. -good luck, everybody.
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it starts on sunday. they're going to take people out and bring them back to their countries. >> they will happen. there's approximately a million people in this country with removal orders.
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that's not what i.c.e. will go after in this. that's the pool of people that been through the chain. >> this is "up." one week ago, people were on high alert. and despite the claims that the raids were successful, they did not happen the way he said they would. there were only a handful of arrests in a few cities. "the wall street journal" reporting that the raids failed to materialize. hans, i want to get a sense from you what the white house has said about all of this. the president was garrulous, to say the least, about the weeks leading up to it. now, what are they saying happened here in the course of last week? >> they're not saying a lot. the president has been focused on the lawmakers that he says aren't really american and
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aren't loving their country the way trump thinks they should. what you've seen on the immigration front, is a lot of personnel changes. they are bringing in ken cuccinelli, shifting things around. policywise, there aren't been a change. the president seems like he wants to refocus on it a little this morning. he's on a tweet storm. big progress at the border. but dems in congress have to come onboard. there's calls for assistance, troops going to the border. but nothing of the large-scale internal enforcement that the white house telegraphed and pulled back and hinted out was going to happen. inside i.c.e., they say they have the ability to do this. in terms of large-scale things, they didn't materialize. and it's somewhat of a mystery. >> hans nichols in bedminster.
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maria, i used a phrase moments ago, generalized anxiety that we see as a result of this. i want to get your read of what's happening ed of the courf the last week. it was acute, saturday going into sunday. brooklyn park was empty. >> i live in harlem. when i started to get the reports, how interesting that they would go after immigrants in a historically black neighborhood like harlem, or latino neighborhood like spanish harlem. i was getting texts and phone calls from people that i know. can you find a therapist? this notion that nothing happened, a lot happened. a lot happened last week and has been happening for decades. it's like a broken record. i'm always saying this.
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people have been living in this society. i.c.e. agents, what's interesting, interestingly, is one thing that is different, is the knocks were coming and they sound horrible, by the way. they're banging at your door at 5:00 in the morning. you're groggi ingy and not sure what's going on. most people, when they get to the door and see police, they open the door. it's not police. it's a violation of their due process. they're impersonating law officers. they're immigration agents. people know, don't open the door. even if they're saying -- they're raising their voice. no. i'm not opening the door. and in "the times," a teenage girl is having to say no to authorities at the door. thinking long-term, you have
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young people that will never trust authority across the board. the worst-case scenario, they will run for office. these kids will run for office, for sure. we were talking about how this is a deliberate strategy or plan. how much was this that? you listen to ken cuccinelli and the rhetoric ahead of the planned raids on sunday, versus what we've seen here. was this the plan all along? there was concern that what the president was promising couldn't be done. there wasn't the manpower to do that. they were more success more than they were. but part of it was this,
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stirring it up. rather than coming up with hard numbers. that comes back time and time again. we see from this president, it's about the projection. the projection of doing something or accomplishing something or meeting a campaign goal, whatever it might be. it's not that dissimilar from the wall. the idea of saying to his supporters that i'm getting done, even if reality is not bearing that out. >> is it a loss if the wall is not built? is there a loss on his end, when people are saying, really? >> to bring up this point, who do his supporters believe? him or us? we see his supporters' approval rating. 51% of voters say they support
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that. >> absolutely. he knows his base very well. he throws out the red meat to rile up his white supremacist sum porter supporters. we don't put it on the people who claim not to be white supremacists to reject these policies. i go back to an earlier discussion, now that you know that the president is racist, what do you do? are you going to stop supporting the policies, george conway, who just realized he -- >> anthony scaramucci. >> are your going to come back to the light? >> geraldo. >> right. >> the benefit of this is to rile up his white supremacist base. the cost was to black and brown communities. i was talking to a man who is an environmentalist. he was talking that the raids anchor communities during
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hurricanes. you're not going to evacuate or leave. you're scared about putting yourself around law enforcement. it happens in all kinds of subtle ways. with the heat wave that's coming through the northeast. are you going to go to a cooling center if you don't have air conditioning? no. you're not going to put yourself in position where authorities can find you. authorities were holding a daughter at the airport as a hostage. >> this is really important. a lot of this is going under cover. just saying, they're on buses. they're on trains. they're in schools. they are taking people from courtrooms and are under cover. i don't know what we're going to label this. but people feeling targeted because they're not born in this country. >> we're going to come back. coming up, many of the president's supporters will excuse a lot, racist remarks, unfulfill comments about policy because of what he's done to reshape the courts.
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eye nutrition for today. the changes have come in waves. that's how the administration describes it. the remaking of the courts, judge-by-judge. elie looks how the administration has laid the groundwork of a seismic society through the courts. by the time in his presidency, prs barack obama had 19 of his nominees confirmed. the third circuit court of appe appeals, the one that is highlighted in red, new jersey, pennsylvania and delaware. republicans make up the majority of that court. elie looks at who has been confirmed and they're mostly white and male. elie has given a sample of who he has seen some nanominated.
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he has called them the seven injustices. we focus on policies that the president has pushed, et cetera, et cetera. you call it trump's court. this has been imposed upon him. >> it's his idea. he doesn't know the difference, as i say, between chief justice john roberts and judge wapner. this is the strategy of republicans. and the reason they go along with trump on his racism is because this is what they wanted for a generation. and they're getting it. trump controls 22% of the circuit courts that are the rung below the supreme court. and these people will be appointed for life. the reason they have an opportunity, is because -- everybody remembers mitch mcconnell blocking mayor garland. most people remember that success. that was just the tip of the iceberg. he was blocking judges for his entire eight years. when trump took over, he had 106 open judicial positions to fill.
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i don't know if that's a record. george washington had lots of judges to appoint, right? that's why trump is able to reassign the courts so dramatically, and so quickly. he's renominated. he's a jones day extraction. it counts in this administration, as well. you just had a slight there at democrats. why doesn't this get through? the republicans are telling their people for a generation, if you care about abortion, if you care about voting rights, we have to control the courts. democrats do not tell our people, if you care about climate change, allowing the deregulatory judges, we're never going to get the green, new deal. if you care about gun
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regulation, supporting second amendment absolutists that thinks that second amendment allows you to own a tank, if you keep them on the court, we'll never get gun control. he's been one of the key attack dogs on inhumane treatment toward children. if you can't make him a campaign issue, what are you doing, democrats? >> jonathan lemire. we talked about how he's going to couch or frame the election going forward. this is something the robs wa s republicans want to be talk about. this is the play. mitch mcconnell's role can't be overstated. and i covered the trump campaign
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in 2016. it was a galvanizing force for republicans that decided to hold their nose and vote for this president. they felt he could deliver this. aides around him want him to stay on a couple of things. economy first and foremost. they wish they could disable his twitter account and just talk about that. good luck. we can't stay on that message. it's the economy and the way he changed the courts. he and mcconnell have done so. >> that was a big deal in my house. a great piece by elie mystal. the mayor of new york says it's up to the police commissioner to decide if the officer faces charges stays or goes. ces charges stays or goes ♪
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♪ ♪ woman: (on phone) discover. hi. do you have a travel card? yep. our miles card. earn unlimited 1.5 miles and we'll match it at the end of your first year. nice! i'm thinking about a scuba diving trip. woman: ooh! (gasp) or not. you okay? yeah, no, i'm good. earn miles. we'll match 'em at the end of your first year. iand grew it toy i$36 billion dollars. 6 in 2010, i signed the giving pledge to fund good causes. then i left my business to combat climate change, fix our democracy, and hold president trump accountable. last year, we ran the largest youth voter mobilization in history - helping double turnout and win back the house.
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i'm tom steyer and i approve this message. let's make change happen! who used expedia to book the vacation rental which led to the discovery
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abnormalities in liver blood tests, diarrhea, hair thinning or loss, vomiting, rash, and loss of appetite. corey calls it her new normal because a lot has changed, but a lot hasn't. ask your doctor about ibrance. the #1 prescribed fda-approved oral combination treatment for hr+/her2- mbc. this is "up." i'm david gura. in the wake of the justice department's decision not to fire the officer in the death of eric gardner, they have called on bill de blasio to fire the officer. protests are expected to continue, in the so-called 11 days of outrage. but only the city's police commissioner, can fire the officer. pete buttigieg, the mayor of
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south bend, indiana, has been criticized for an incident involving police in his city. there's touch points to this entire show. it goes back to the role bill barr plays here. there was a five-year statute of limitation on this. help us to understand the thinking on that. >> the civil rights suggested that charges be brought against the officer. they decided not to bring the charges, deciding that they couldn't prove that the officer acted with intent, when he put eric garner into an illegal choke hold that had been outl outlawed by the police department. >> how much fault do you ascribe to the former attorney general, knowing this was likely to happen?
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that's an interesting question. this investigation started under loretta lynch and under the obama administration. there's some criticism that's been leveled at obama and lynch for not moving fast enough. this is a general problem we're now having with obama, insofar as he was seeing trump was running, he should have done things more aggressive and strategically, instead of just figuring out that things would work out in the end. i'm not sure that's a valid criticism. but it's a criticism that's happen right now. >> maria, how do you react on what we've seen since? you see the meeting with the mayor. and the mayor unable to do anything at this time. the decision is not his to make. you said, we keep going and
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making connections. the anti-immigrant, the target is anti-blocack. and the anti-blackness is exemplified by the death of eric garner. she died of a heart attack, if i'm not mistaken. we have to make connections that the activists are doing. you're the mayor. you represent us. a lot of people are running, still. he hasn't dropped out yet. how is it you're on a debate stage, but not resolving this situation. in new york city and nationally, this is what created black lives matter. or in part helped to create black lives matter. the fact he's not acting says
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volumes. maybe i'm wrong, but does he have the legal right? >> there's a counterexample here. two people showed up in blackface. giuliani said i'm going to fire them. you can -- what giuliani did then, de blasio can do now, you can make it clear where you stand. ever since his first term here, as mayor, when there were two officers were killed and the police are blaming de blasio's anti-police rhetoric. since then, he's been reluctant to challenge the nypd. this police officer may lose his job. but de blasio is missing an opportunity to reach out to the community and set the tone for
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the city. >> be a leader. we talk about the justice reform. mayors in our system have way more power on the ground, criminal justice, policing reform, than senators or presidents or attorneys general, right? mayors have a lot of control here. you see democratic mayors, we expect them to meet a certain standard. >> the last deal on that point. you have the president reaching out to the head of sweden. you have a projection of a strange role of executives in cases like that. >> the president reached out on behalf of the rapper. >> say it again. the president, the executive, the mayor, whoever it might be, has the ability, you set the
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tone. you set the example. you create the narrative to lead the something. exert pressure. >> thank you for joining me. coming up, the last-minute prep for democrats as they look ahead to their big chance to question the former special counsel, robert mueller, this week. obert mueller, this week award winning design. award winning engine. the volvo xc90. the most awarded luxury suv of the century. and i don't add trup the years.s. but what i do count on... is boost® delicious boost® high protein nutritional drink has 20 grams of protein, along with 26 essential vitamins and minerals.
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this is "up." i'm david gura. we're going to pretend it's thursday, july 25th, the day after robert mueller's testimony on capitol hill. the day that democrats wanted and waited for for a long time. he stayed silent for years as he and his team conducted their investigation. in the end, he was adamant the report would speak for itself. after robert mueller submitted his findings, it was the attorney general that did the talking. that's bottom line. after two years of investigation, thousands of subpoenas, hundreds of warrants and interviews, the special counsel confirmed, that the russian government sponsored efforts to illegal interfere with the 2016 presidential election, but did not find that the trump campaign or other americans colluded.
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in consultation with the office of legal counsel, and other department lawyers, the deputy attorney general and i concluded that the evidence developed by the special counsel is not sufficient to accomplish that the president committed an obstruction of justice offence. >> that irritated the special counsel who felt his work was being misconstrued by the attorney general and the president. the democrats wanted to hear from the special counsel himself. they wanted the american people to see the movie. leading up to the hearing, there was speculation about robert mueller's hesitance. but they have executed a strategy. >> we will decide how much of our time we want to spend fighting with him.
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there's a lot of material within the report, that the american people are not familiar with, which they need to be. >> once again, we're going to pretend it's thursday. and the hearing has happened. we're going to focus on what, if anything, is likely to have changed. op up with me, john harwood. msnbc legal analyst, angelina maxwell is the director of programming at msnbc. let me start with you. there's a great piece in "the washington post," laying out how democrats and republicans have prepped for this event. what do democrats want out of this hearing itself the? 92% of democrats see this as the impeachment of trump. enough damage to trump to undermine his re-election bid in next year's election.
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in our fake hindsight, how difficult will it be for democrats to know what to do with the hearing? >> not easy at all. i think there's two audiences for this. one is the public. nancy pelosi, looking at the leadership, whether he's a turn guy. he's inclined by his own standards to paint within the lines and not go beyond. he said he won't go beyond the report. i also think there's an audience within the house democratic caucus, that they're going to watch the facts and they're going to have a bit of a look in the mirror moment to decide. do i let this go? are we obliged to do something about this? i talked to a leader of the house yesterday, who said impeachment is still on the
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table. we'll see if this moves the needle inside or outside. >> how about this moment? more efforts to get witnesses up on capitol hill, that's been stymied by the white house. other hearings have designed to illuminate what's in the mueller report. is there, among all democrats, a shared sense of the importance of this moment? >> oh, yeah. we lost the first round. and to this day, we're debating what the mueller report actually says, which isn't anything about collusion, funny enough. going through the report line-by-line, and bringing it to life, that's what the democrats have to do. there's a lot in there that's very bad for the president, his administration. i think the important thing is to frame those actions as potentially illegal, as current or future national security threats. that's the place the democrats can play, where they look
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serious. they look like they're care about governing and they look like they care about the national security of the country. at the end of the day, that's what matters here. >> we talked about it a while back. something we were talking about and prepping for it, making this the most effective it can be. you hear about the prep that the democrats are doing, members of both committees holding one-on-one prep sessions, forcing mueller to respond to different scenarios. several lawmakers have had multiple sessions. your sense -- there hasn't been a lot of investigative work happening as a result of many things. your sense of a focus how that pays off? >> i think it will pay off. it sounds like they are planning and coordinating and not just winging it, which they sometimes seem to do. they have to keep the goal in
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mind. the main goal will be the undo the no collusion, no obstruction mantra that's been out there. i had people who i respect say it to me. wasn't there no collusion and no obstruction? they have to undo that. they're working from behind in that sense. it is the movie version, but not the documentary. don't look for the movie moments, when you get mueller to say the smoking gun. but use the language and get him to explain it. he does talk in a way that is not accessible. i think hopefully, that's what the prep is doing. what does this mean when you say, did not establish? does that mean there was no evidence? or just that you couldn't find a crime? and what's the difference between those two things in your mind? >> and also, what does it mean
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when mueller says the report, that the trump campaign welcome ed the attempts by the russians. the counterintelligence stuff, i don't expect robert mueller to go deeply into that. that's important into this process. and the fact that you had an administration or a campaign that welcomed the assistance, did not reject it, and tried to cover up those facts, that means something. >> zerlina, how complicated is it for a special counsel that doesn't want to talk to the report? could you say to him, president trump keeps saying there's no collusion or obstruction. is that true? how restricted is he going to make himself? >> i think he could answer no to that question. in the beginning of the report, they do an extensive job describing and outlining the definitions of the terms. you can ask a question like that, and he can give an honest
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answer. the more important question might be a good, dramatic moment, does this report exonerate the president? he has to say no because he said that in the report. >> saying that on camera could be a telling moment. that's the main fact you want the american people to take away. >> there's a piece by tim jeffries, how republicans won't be able to resist attacking bob mueller. what's your sense of how we regard him? >> there's going to be people on the fringes who want to buy into the conspiracy theories and smearing of mueller. for the most part, one of the things that mueller did in keeping the report as straight an arrow as he did, as
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nonpartisan, as nonhyperbolic. it allowed mueller to maintain the integrity that he came into this with. and maybe one of the few people in this whole saga that has come out unscathed in that sense. part of why this is so important, it's not the democrats telling the american public, this is what trump did. it is bob mueller with all the integrity he brings to the table. >> that's the characteristic of bob mueller, one that was recognized before his appointment. this is a person of the highest integrity. there was an amount of decorum. nobody can question where he is
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coming from, his skill and his character. >> john, there was a line in the piece about how the judiciary committee, and the intelligence committee have been planning on this. they're going to split in two. this is what we're talking about, divides in the democratic party. there's a lot of concern about where the investigations are going, how much juice they have themselves. what does that say to you, that there's been that working across committees in a way you wouldn't have seen before? >> it's very significant. it tells you that the democratic party, has a large cadre of serious grown-ups in serious positions, starting with nancy pelosi, including elijah cummings, jerry nadler, adam schiff, they understand the
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factional, turf war fair will not help them in this stance. come friday, how long will it take you before you know how successful this has been? >> i think we'll know within the first few minutes if we're going to have a day where it's going to move the needle. we will know, based on his first few answers if this is a day that he will make some news. if it's not in the first couple answers, it won't move the needle. we are trying to catch up and get with the president. i think we will know soon, it
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will be the next day. >> coming up here in a moment, how donald trump's racist remarks are part of the strategy that's been described as a clash of civilizations. that's coming up. ns that's coming up all you can eat is back. how do you like that? applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood.
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welcome back to "up." i'm david gura. the president continues his attacks on four democratic members of congress. he tweeted this, i don't think the four congresswomen are
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capable of loving our country. they should apologize to america and israel for the horrible and hateful things they said. they are destroying the democratic party. but are weak and insecure people. the piece in "the new york times" reminds us of the president's potential for using race for his own gain is nothing new. trump wanted to pit an all-white team against an all-black team. now, he has use the racist divisions opportunistically. not as chances to heal wounds but as openings for fame, money and power without regard to consequences. there's a resonance here to another campaign when there were also deep, political divides. the american system of government was born here.
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we realize as we stand here -- >> trump's strategy is similar to how nixon tried to frame their arguments around pat patriotism and loyalty. they used the slogan, love it or leave it, to sentiments that the vietnam war was anti-american, not necessarily anti-nixon or anti-american. charlie, let me ask you about how good that analogy is. it's been said before that there's comparisons to be made between nixon and trump. you had people at that rally where the president was speaking. of course, that was the plausible deniblt.
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>> that was taken by trump. the 1972 analogy is important for many reasons. i came across an editorial from "the new york times" july 1971. about the democratic prospects and how optimistic they were to defeat nixon. the next year, nixon won 64% of the popular vote, by framing the election, that the democrats were for acid abortion and amnesty. he made it negative partisanship. president trump wants to run against a socialist democratic party. he's trying to make the four
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freshmen democrats the face of that party. he's talking about loving it or leaving it. he's not talki ining about bern sanders. he's not talking about elizabeth warren. he's chosen four minority women. you love america or hate america. i may be awful but these people want to destroy the country. >> there's been a talk about whether this is something the president can articulate. you can say this is part of the broader strategy that he or his re-election campaign have figured out. >> is this strategic racism? he's just a racist. he's behaving as one.
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that goes back decades. we should talk about what we should do about it. the comparisons is breainterest because of the political context and all that went into that campaign. but democrats in the country in 2019 could not be more different. the reason he's selecting the four congresswomen is because they are of color. women of color are not the first you stand up for. the democrats took their time defending them. they're easy targets. the women you will need look like me. look like acc. not only stand up for the women but mobilize women that look like them to win the
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presidential election. we're talking about a margin of 77,000. that's a lot of people. >> why is that message permea permeating leadership in the house? there hasn't been a moment with nancy pelosi surrounding them with democrats. >> because nancy pelosi is trying to preserve her majority. while she knows that's part of the majority, they didn't flip to create that majority. she's focused on virginia and richmond, and a much more conservative electorate that she is facing.
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a couple of points. last year, trump and the republicans tried to make nancy pelosi and maxine waters the face of the democratic party. that wasn't succeedful. and that goes to zerlina's point of demographic shift. in 1972, and i thought charlie's piece was very good, but in 1972, a large chunk of partisan democrats were very conservative. we were in the process of realigning white conservatives from the south to the democratic party. richard nixon had a more receptive audience to make that argument than donald trump will in 2020. >> let me ask you about the demographics. let me ask you about the electoral college map, as well. the strategy is a focus of what
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he's been saying? >> yeah. that map is the whole story. you have the analysis that says he can lose the popular vote and still win the electoral votes. this is his strategy. he's not going to win california and new york. but he's going to be focusing on places like pennsylvania and ohio and michigan and wisconsin. he's focusing on a demographic band of voters that are conservative on a variety of issues, including immigration, trade. issues like abortion, gun control and this love it or leave it approach, trying to fix the democratic party as the radical, socialist party. this is aimed at trying to thread that needle again. er is lezerlina is right. he's not trying to expand the base. he's trying to polarize that base. i think democrats need to be
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conscious that their goal is not to run up the score in california. the goal is to win 270 electoral votes in the midwest. >> maybe we should all move to wisconsin. it's alarming that you can win by millions of votes and not win the election. it goes to show that in 2018, we are forgetting that in michigan, pennsylvania, and virginia, democrats won statewide elections. we talk about the three states and 2016. but we leave out the results of 2018. >> charlie, stay with us. we'll come back to you in a little bit. you heard about biden and harris. there's another match-up we have our eyes on, as the candidates prepare for the next debate in detroit. we'll head to iowa first. we'll head to iowa first
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what can you expect from the debate with you and warren? >> intelligence. intelligence, said the senior senator. junior senator? i thought he had been there
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longer. on "up." i'm david gura. nine days away from the second democratic debate. there's likely to be a lot of focus on bernie sanders and elizabeth warren. they are neck and neck for second place. we want to bring in mike with bernie sanders. we heard the joking answer from senator sanders a moment ago. what is the campaign saying about their sense of what this debate will mean, importance-wise, and what that visual is going to mean for the campaign. >> it's interesting. if you want to get a rise out of the warren or sanders campaign, they decision put that they're in the same lane.
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they say they're different. but the next debate will provide an interesting side-by-side of those candidates in that effort. what we've seen in iowa has been an interesting display of how two work together. you have joe biden and bernie sanders, feeling pressure from their first debate, using each other as a foil to gain momentum. you have joe biden to start the week, talking about his vision for building on the affordable care act. obamacare 2.0. to expand access to people. and criticizing bernie sanders and medicare for all. saying it's not an option and too expensive. bernie sanders has been pushing back, eager to take on that debate against joe biden. talking about this, is the best option for seniors.
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that's the option he's going to going forward. it serves that warren and sanders side-by-side. we saw bernie sanders speaking at the same venue, where elizabeth warren debuted her candidacy in january. elizabeth warren had a bigger crowd. that's the story, senator warren building on the momentum over the course of the year and taking away from sanders. >> i want to have you weigh in here. let's look at them side-by-side. they are more nuanced than we have. >> you use the word nuance. that's what i'm thinking about as i care them. they have a similar set of values of what the government should be doing for the american people. they agree on that.
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they don't agree on the approach to get there. in elizabeth warren's case, how she wants to get there. bernie sanders could have more ideas of how we're going to transform the health care industry. that's something he says all the time. how are you going to transform it? elizabeth warren will tell me how. bernie sanders does not. you don't have to pay attention to analysts like me, where i'm saying one is more heavy on the details than the other. you'll be able to see that. >> how much does that permeate the debates, john? we've had one thus far. how much does it matter? >> i think it matters a lot.
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els bh elizabeth warren has ran as the more practical of the two and the more con cleed of the two. he's been eating his lunch the last couple of months. the difference of running as the only alternative for hillary clinton, who is a baggage-car baggage-carrying establishment candidate, not a terrible candidate, but she had problems, is much different than running in a field with 20 people, including people who share your values and your approach, who are more effective in a certain spectrum politically. elizabeth warren is a democrat. bernie sanders is not a democrat. and he did not do especially well with self-identified democrats in the do 16 election. he did better with independents.
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warren's done good on her own. >> how do you study and look at the debates? how do you think the distinction is going to be made on the debate stage in detroit? >> first of all, i think what the first debate showed us, is they make a difference, right? we already had at least one candidate drop out. it tefeels like this will separe them further and further. as a woman, a somewhat moderate democrat, bernie sanders makes my skin crawl. and i can't identify for you what it is. but i see him as a not pro-woman candidate. and so, having the two of them there -- i don't understand young women who support him. and i hope having him next to
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her, will help highlight that. if i were here, i would say why are you supporting him? >> mike memoli, thank you very much. coming up, the backlash against trump's remarks continues to grow on capitol hill. continues to grow on capitol hill mone to your goals and needs. some only call when they have something to sell. fisher calls regularly so you stay informed. and while some advisors are happy to earn commissions whether you do well or not. fisher investments fees are structured so we do better when you do better. maybe that's why most of our clients come from other money managers. fisher investments. clearly better money management. - i like to plan my activities before i take trip, so by the time i get there i can just enjoy the ride. with tripadvisor, it's easy to discover over 100,000 bookable things to do,
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act your age. get your own insurance company. carlo, why don't you start us with a little bit of cereal? you can spread it all around the table. and we're gonna split the warm hot dog. and i'll have a glass of grape juice to spill on the carpet. oh, uh, do you want some to spill? act your age. get your own insurance company. this is "up." i'm david gura. on fox news sunday, they defended the president's attacks against four minority congresswomen. >> everybody running, always points out where they think america can do better and where america needs to do. there's a fundamental distinction between people who think that we need to lean into and strengthen america's core values, whether it be a
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constitutional value, the rule of law, the principles of western civilization or people who think that we need to turn america into venezuela. because i cannot resist throwing duke under the bus, i want to go from one duke alumnus to another. that was spelled out explicitly there. it's worth remembering this is the executor of the one translating policy for this country. >> it's both. does the democratic caucus want to turn america into venezuela? no. not true. given the fact that donald trump says stuff that isn't true all the time, it is not surprising that his advisers, who are
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trying to defend him, also say things that are not true. we saw from steven miller. racial animus is shot through the story of donald trump. shot through the political career of donald trump. his dad was arrested at a klan rally when he was 21 years old. the trump was asked about that by "the new york times," and he said, i don't think that's fair to bring that up because there's no charges. the justice department sued him, the trump family, for racial discrimination. you have the muslim ban. you have the rapists. >> central park five. >> immigrants. the way he talks about crimes of ms-13. this is somebody who made -- charlottesville. he made very clear who he is,
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what his values are and we'll see that for the next year and a half. >> he is talking about criminalization. you see katie hopkins. when you're a white nationalist, white people is the focus. all of our politics are by, far and about, what white men think. that is over. it is the end of white politics. it's the end of this era where we go to one group of americans and say, what do you think? at its core, it's interesting
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that the white house would send out the white nationalists this weekend to defend the president's racist remarks. that's an interesting choice. he's not going to say anything that's not true. but that's anti-al to the entire experiment. it's dangerous where we are right now. >> talking about the issues right now. let's hear what he had to say on that program, a short while ago. >> he is -- yes. i tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. when i think about what he said, to these young ladies, who are merely trying to bring excellence to government and trying to make sure that generations unborn, have the
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opportunity to experience true democracy, when i hear those things, it takes me back, like i said. i can still republican, bleeding from my forehead when people were throwing bottles. they were saying go home [ bleep ]. and again, the president has to set the tone. he has to be a role model. the president, right now, right now, mr. president, we want you to be a role model. we want somebody in that white house, who our children can be proud of, our children can emulate, our children will look up to. that's not the example you're setting. we started the show today talking about historical resonance of what's happening
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here. >> yep. >> and it's visceral. a lot of black people have been, people come to the realization that trump the a racist. we're like, thank you. come along. now, what are we going to do about it? i had family that marched in selma. when he had the crowd chanting, that felt like a klan rally to me. that really is what it felt like. that made me feel the response, and the klan rally. going back to his rallies in chicago, there was one in particular that got violent. there was a lot of protests. there were fights in the crowd. trump supporters are punching protesters. this has been building. we have to be vigilant in this
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moment. this could turn violent quickly. and it's not like white nationalists have not committed acts of terrorism in recent months. so, we have to be vigilant. >> let me bring you into this, mimi. you've seen the president, once distancing himself and go back and double down over and over. >> yeah. if anyone thinks what trump is doing is just those four women or women of color is delusional, right? this is dividing society into as many groups as possible, and making them antagonistic against each other. one of the signs of that, is this idea that he is defending our country against -- jews against anti-semitism. that the reason, you know, we can say send ilhan omar back is
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because she's anti-semitic. i can disagree with some of the things she said. i don't like some of the things he said. that's a world of difference from attacking her as a person. attacking her for her background. saying she doesn't have a right to say those things. she does. and i have a right to disagree. people fall for that, wow, he's standing up for the jews. guess who he is coming for next. >> david, studies of the 2016 electorate, trump electorate, show that the core that launched him in the primaries, are the most resentful white voters. people, for whom their own racial identity is important to them. by large majority, to be truly american, you should be born in this country. you should be a christian. you should have lived most of your life in this country. those are voters that the president relied on and
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continues to rely on. >> we're going to leave it there. the one major votes that we needs to take back, charlie sykes will be back. pullet brout any kind of solace was the ability to hand her a device so she could call her family and let them know that she was okay. (vo) there for you when it matters most. and now, get a free samsung galaxy s10e when you buy one. that's verizon. ♪ ♪ award winning interface. award winning design. award winning engine. the volvo xc90.
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continue have problems with are young people. more than 50% of young voters identify as democrats leaning towards the party. that is the biggest break in favor of democrats among registered voters of any generation. in a piece why the republican party needs millennials to survive. what we as the conservative movement look like to young americans is old, white, male, bigoted and unprincipled people who bray loudly at others breaking the rules but excuse ourselves doing so. this becomes particularly urge want as the gop sees another weakness. according to axios the biggest threat is demographics. binorts will become the majority by 20 45. in less than a decade the entire
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population will be majority nonwhite. she said a huge issue here is principles. it centers on principles she, you and others identify republicans have to wrestle with. she writes we can been over young americans who are principled but first we have to live by those principles. how do you respond to that? how do republicans begin to wrestle with that given all we've talked about? >> well, they've been wrestling with it and they've been losing. we get caught up in the short-term news cycle. we get caught up in the short-term election cycle, but what you're describing here is a tectonic generational shift. young people start off as liberal and they get a family and become more conservative. i don't think that's necessarily going to apply to this generation which is watching
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what's going on. so, yes, republicans might be able to eke out a victory next year. it's certainly possible they could thread the needle, but a tsunami is coming and it is inexorable. the kinds of things president trump is doing is going to stamp indelibly on the republican party this sort of nativists exclusionary xenophobic sexist image that i don't think they're going to be able to shake. >> i'm referring to this as a party of trump and how trump has been responding to all of this. about a week ago he gave this speech on environmentism and it was catering to young people who care about that issue. that is an issue republicans have having to deal with. what they have long prized as important issues are not important to younger voters. >> our grandchildren who are
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going to be having to be breeging in the air we about 12 years according to scientists so let's start on that. there's two things that's important to understand. it is the biggest generation but also the most diverse. racialally, equitably they say they're a lot more progressive on a lot of social issues versus their parents or grandparents. and so i think that's a really important point when we're thinking ability what they're going to do in terms of behavior and voting in the future what kind of positions can you take on policy. being rayest, that is not going to work with this generation. being blatantly sexist is not going to work with this generation. i think it's important to understand they are more progressive on social issues but
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they're diverse and they're large and those are factors you cannot forget. >> go to the streets and tell people why conservatism works. is there uniimity or a case to be made that republicans could say to young people this is why you should peaporting us abe su not the democratic party? >> at the moments, no, but i think this is going to be solved through what economists call creative destruction. the republican national committee put out exactly the same message six years ago. they said a wave is coming, america is changing, we are not chichging. we have to have a more welcoming and inclusive message for womens, nonwhites, gays, latinos, blacks, the entire gamut. and what happened was the remnant or the people protecting
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the old way of doing things within the party, the oelgs racial conservatism triumph with donald trump. he could do it again but that is short-term gain for a long-term problem. look at what happened with california and wilson run re-election in 1994 and he did win by running an anti-immigrant campaign. >> we're going to leave it there just for the time. my panel here in new york, appreciate the time on this sunday. coming up next here onmi msc joy reid and trump's politics of race. coming up next. rump's politics f race coming up next ♪ limu emu & doug
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that does it for me today. "am joy" with joy reid starts right now. so the president not only knew about the payments, he knew in how to hide the payments and reimbursements to you? >> we discussed it. everything had to go through mr. trump and it had to be approved by mr. trump. >> and now you're going to prison. >> and i'm going to prison, yes, ma'am. to those who support the president and his rhetoric as i once did, i pray the country doesn't make the same mistakes that i have made or paid the heavy price that my family and i are paying. >> good morning and welcome to "am joy." well, we've got a lot to get to today including the latest on donald trump's re-election

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