>> mike mcfaul, i'm going to leave it there. as always, thank you. >> thanks for having me. >> stanford still looking good behind you. we'll be back tomorrow with more "meet the press" daily. it's "the beat" with ari meller that begins right this second. >> thank you very much. tonight we're one day out from the mueller hearings and in the middle of several big stories right now. we have a special report on some of the moments from the mule ter hearing you may not have seen later this hour. also a top democrat now alling that the trump administration's immigration policy has reached the point of kidnapping, shocking video emerging. washington is, of course, still consumed with this mueller fallout. tonight there's new reporting on an effort by the trump administration to do something while everyone may be distracted, cutting food assistance for up to 3 million low income people. for a lot of folks this is a life and death story. we begin with this fallout from bob mueller's testimony.

democrats are now eyeing a key witness turning to trump's finances highway the mueller hearings did belong to the chairs of intel and judiciary, today it's the democrat in charge of formal oversight of the administration, elijah cummings authorizing new subpoenas to trump world, figures like steve bannon and former nsa adviser kt mcfarland, mick mulvaney and jared kushner and ivanka trump. this is also a request for those people's personal communications and that might sound broad even to some harsh, but remember, several of these people including donald trump's family memberses in office have already been caught using personal accounts to avoid potential accountability. democrats noting the hypocrisy given these same people's focus on hillary clinton's infamous personal e mail account. now, having deployed a subpoena

to make yesterday's hearing happen, chairman nadler says he's about to enforce a subpoena against a witnesses that mueller cited most, former white house counsel don mcgahn. >> the very next step either tomorrow or friday we're going into court to ask for the grand jury material and to enforce a subpoena against mr. mcgahn. >> mr. mcgahn is key because he is more than a witness. more than a witness to me, if you will, if you remember that one. because in all seriousness, mr. mcgahn at this point in the mueller report as written and yesterday as testified was mr. trump's an would be co-conspirator. this was the aide that was ordered by donald trump to fire bob mueller. his refusal to do that is part of why his name appears in the mueller report over 500 times. democrats clearly have a united plan on tactics. it makes some sense. of course, you want mcgahn up

there and hear him in his own words explain what he did. you can stack that against what mueller described and confirmed he did yesterday. where the democrats appear still different tonight is not having one single end game or plan for whether or not to impeach. >> many of us have come forward indicating that we want to see an impeachment inquiry started. >> i'm keeping an open mind but have yet to be fully persuaded. >> he has laid out a road map how we can hold the president accountable and the only way to do that is through the impeachment process. >> and that brings to us a final point about all this mueller fallout tonight in washington. the headlines and the judgments came as fast as bob mueller spoke. this is 2019. no one waits till the end of the whole day to report on huge developments. and the earlier headlines were especially tough on mueller's first answers about obstruction in that morning hearing. there's no doubt bob mueller did duck many of the questions and did he refuse to join any

attempted recruitment on to call it you know, team impeachment. but if you watch this show you know none of that was actually a surprise. we have been reporting how one, mueller was legally a hostile witness. he resisted the democrats for months. and two, how even as a willing witness in the past when he would face congress which he did many times, he was even then unyielding and often evasive. while the public was a key audience for mueller, so the perception in those headlines can matter, the most pivotal decisionmakers on question what to do about potential obstruction are inside the congress, inside the building, the institution that mueller was facing, like speaker pelosi who is still against impeachment at this point and senators who would ultimately rule on impeachment. one of them, senator markey came out to the floor today to announce his conclusion post-mueller. >> it is time for the house of

representatives to begin a formal impeachment proceeding against president trump. understanding the gravity of this moment in our nation's history. i stand here today because i believe we have reaped the moment where we must stand up for the survival of our democracy. >> we've got a lot of great guests tonight. in a few minutes, i'll bring on the lawyers. it's not time for them yet. i'm beginning with the big picture with bill kristol, conservative journalist, former republican white house official and defender of the group defending democracy together and an associate professors professor at harvard's kennedy school of government. >> good to be here. >> professor, as i mentioned before we bring in the lawyers, lawyers, guns and money as they say, now that we've had a day plus to process, given your view, your perch there at the kennedy school, what was

important to you about what we learned yesterday and how do you contrast that against what the democrats themselves pitched as a made for tv event that wasn't always at least in every moment made for tv? >> sure. well, ari, historians sometimes weise think fast, sometimes it takes us a long time. sometimes we rhyme slow. i have to say there are two different outcomes. in the immediate, one of the things that we can look at is say that this hearing didn't necessarily live up to a lot of the hype. there were no explosives or fireworks, that kind of thing. there were no big sound bites. >> you're not saying don't believe the hype, are you? >> but actually, but actually, i had i in the broader picture, in the longer picture, if we slow down a little bit, pump the brakes we might see that there was a lot revealed in the testimony. so essentially, you know, robert

mueller came in and said here are the facts. the facts line up with what we've been saying for a long time what the president has been saying, what reports have been saying about questions around the nature of obstruction, about block information, about real serious accusations in disregard for the rule of law. that is what the american people really needs to remember, really needs to think about. that's what perhaps congress should be helping the american people think through and wrestle with especially on the accountability for president trump. >> bill? >> yeah, i mean, i think when the key decision was made after the mueller report came down. we knew what we needed to know then to move to formal impeachment inquiry. speaker pelosi disagreed. she had reasons and they were both public spirited as well as political tactics. she may be right. i don't know. having made that decision, it's going to be hard to argue that we've learned new things we

didn't know from the report that the a few additional details would make much difference. even he did enough obstruction of justice based on the report or he didn't. i suspect impeachment is not going to happen now but i think this is very important. there's a ton of oversight that is ves very important to do arn important to publicize to the american public how the trump administration is running the government of the united states. that is a huge issue. if he's not going to be impeached and convicted what are the ways you judge many an incumbent president, is the border patrol being encouraged to hold american citizens for three weeks without due process of law. are the parts of the company, the graft, corruption, everything else. they should not give up on other aspects of oversight and accountability, but i do think the key moment was when the speaker decided and again she may be right in this decision, but once she said no impeachment inquiry it all becomes kind of

dotting an "i" here and crossing a "t" there and hoping some witness will say something we didn't know. in my opinion, we knew what we needed to know when we saw the report. >> you've been clear and critical of what you've outlined as trump's abuse of power. two pieces to build on your point, it was one the speaker drawing the line in public and two, the president acting in a manner that the house rebuked him for racism which triggered a vote on impeachment before mueller even sat down. this is a metric now. 60% of the democratic caucus didn't see trump as impeachable last week. yesterday became not only a neutral ground within the democratic caucus but a question what mueller would do. that brings us to the bob mueller that the country saw yesterday. from the "new york times" analysis about what it was and wasn't for your view. mueller came across as neither the avengen angel of resistance fan fiction or the rabid

partisan of a republican portraiture. he was no myth. he was just a man cautious, maybe a bit hard of hearing, leery of overspeaking and overstepping is, bounds to the proprieties of another time. bill, do you agree? >> yes, i think so. i think your point i hadn't really thought about that premature vote last week forcing the democrats to go on record. 60% against. can you honestly say if you voted against now, you've learned something now that would change your mind? can you say much in a month or two? the trump administration has been ruthless in claiming falsely i think various claims of executive privilege and ignoring subpoenas and stalling and running out the clock. and you know, they're going to continue doing that. i'm doubtful we're going to having an aha moment on impeachment over the next few months. >> stay with me. the panel stays. former doj official matt miller

join me in a moment. he told "the new york times" in this new piece "mueller's never cared a wit how he came off in the media because he's always subscribed to the doj rule that you speak through your words and actions in court." matt miller is here along with law professor jen fare taub from vermont. >> a lot of people were expecting bob mueller to deliver the final knockout punch for donald trump to take the words of his report and show up as the kind of witness who would be kind of like jim comey has been in his appearances. people who knew bob mueller would always tell you that wasn't true. the fact that he looked for guidance from the department of justice before going in, the fact he gave them the opportunity to rein in his testimony was a pretty clear sign that that's what we were going to get. now, look, the quote you read from the times a minute ago that he was a mankind of hewing to

traditions iter from another time is also accurate. there was a time that's what you would like to see the department of justice do. if he had been speaking about an investigation into someone who the department could the charge with a crime, i think that would have been the appropriate way to handle it. as we all know, the diplomat of justice doesn't believe the president can be charged. i would have liked to have seen him come in and be a little more open about what he found about the president, be a little more willing to talk about the results of his investigation. because the president is different from everyone else. >> did you want him to be more comeyesque? >> you know, it's funny. i've long thought if bob mueller had been the director of the fbi in 2016 instead of jim comey, we would have had a different outcome and had comey been the special counsel, we would have had a different outcome there, as well. >> that's a reel only a nerd could love. people can understand what you're saying given how much their attentions have gotten.

jennifer, listen to something else that was so important, the russian meddling, the new normal, putting america on notice. >> have we establish aid new normal from this past campaign that is going to apply to future campaigns so that if any one of us running for the u.s. house, any candidate for the u.s. senate, any candidate for the presidency of the united states aware if a hostile foreign power is trying to influence an election has no duty to report that to the fbi or other authorities? go ahead. >> i hope this is not the new normal but i fear it is. >> jennifer? >> yeah, this was one of the most chilling moments i thought in yesterday's testimony. and ari, you know, to quote killer mike, robert mueller is not an actor. he's not just another talking head telling lies on a teleprompter. this is a truth teller and we shouldn't focus so much on the

messenger but the message here. and what he's letting us know is that russia committed many crimes and was cite successful. russia committed a crime when they hacked into the democratic national committee computer systems. they committed a crime when they spread disinformation via social information, when they hacked into the state election infrastructure. in addition to that, in mueller's own words, donald trump and his campaign gave a boost to those activities and they also built their entire messaging campaign around some of these leaks of stolen information. and here we are and they're still doing it and donald trump isn't focused on any of the criminality here. instead, he is still calling this a witch hunt. he's still calling this a hoax. and he's still welcoming interference from russia and other governments. here we are. that is what we should be paying

attention to right now. >> professor taub, i didn't know you were going to reach for killer mike. i think that's from the song "reagan" where bill kristol, killer mike also says if we don't have a farm, then we don't have wheat. what are the kids going to eat. do you have any killer mike quotes for us, bill. >> i do not? i'm impressed with all of you guys. i'm deferring on killer mike to the law professors as well as to you, ari. just one point. >> do you know who killer mike endorsed in the last presidential campaign? >> i do not. i do not. >> anybody know? >> bernie sanders. >> bernie. >> yeah. bernie. >> great. >> i'm going to let bill make up his own point. because sometimes it's like we've lost control of the monster we've created. bill and then back to professor rigore. >> the point about election security is very good. i believe senator mcconnell blocked security legislation today. said the democrats weren't serious.

i don't know if the bill is perfect or good but fine, amend it. let's have a debate about kind of an important issue where they are interfering and it's not clear that the u.s. government is doing what it should be doing to protect our election from 2020. there's where democrats should be doing a lot to highlight this, especially the fact that the republican -- it's one thing not to agree with a particular piece of legislation. they want to spend the money differently, have different guidelines. it's another thing to not even have a debate about it. >> yeah, we've got that headline up. professor? >> so two quick things. one, i think one of the things that the hearings reinforced how would he havefully the united states unprepared the united states is around election security and kind of foreign involvement or foreign interference. the second thing is at a certain i don't want in time, you know, all of this talk around corruption, around obstruction,

around criminal activity, around grift, around misbehavior and misdeeds at a certain point, democrats have to do something about it, particularly as voters want something done about it. it's not enough to talk around the symbolism but at some point voters are going to want to see tangible action. naacp just voted to impeach trump. what are the democrats going to do about it and are they going to be on the same page. that's important to think about going forward. >> before we go, for jennifer and matt what, legally changed yesterday if anything? >> i think what the most important thing that changed yesterday is something my friend judd sugarman brought out in a piece that he wrote and also on twitter which is this. mueller let us know that the olc, the office of legal council opinion, doesn't address the problem of the statutes of limitations. i'm a little bit in the weeds.

what i want to say specifically, for example, the statute of limitations on charging the president after he leaves office for let's say obstruction is five years and should the president win re-election, then that's going to run out. and he would then be immune from being held accountable for niece crimes. >> you're assuming no more crimes afterward. >> just using that. i'm not actually assuming that, but right. even assuming that, and so there's a problem there. and because mueller wouldn't even say that he believed trump had committed a crime, there's no way to even make these allegations now that we can be sure we can make them unless they're done through the constitutional process of impeachment. that's why i think it's so important for the house to simply begin impeachment proceedings so there's a possibility of saying this obstruction is a high crime or misdemeanor. >> matt? >> you know, there's a related issue to the one she brought up. it relates to big barr closing

the obstruction investigation after mueller submitted his report. mueller said in the hearing yesterday as he did in the report one of the reasons you investigate the rez for a crime even if you can't indict him he might be able to be charged if he leaves office if the statute hasn't run. it's a scenario where he loses re-election. that would be one thinging if that investigation had just been kind of left open. well, what bill barr did is close the investigation. what that means is should there be a democratic president and a democratic attorney general, they have to make the decision to go back in, reopen it and investigate. that's a big, big thing to ask a brand-new administration to do. >> what you're saying is exactly what trump lawyer jay sekulow told me last night on the evening of the mueller hearings. they view the issue as closed and not worried about post presidential indictment because barr moved the goal post. someone would have to undo that. bill, leah, jennifer and matt, thank you so much. very interesting stuff. when we come back, david corn

will be here later in the show on what was the most important revelations on the evidence against trump. also this is viral video showing immigration agents smashing a window with his young kids in the car. >> it will be fine. >> no, i'm scared. i don't want them to take him. >> it's okay. >> and later a new administration plan to take away food from support from 3 million people and a special look at what some are calling britain's own trump. i'm ari melber. e calling britai own trump. i'm ari melber but you're not, because you have e*trade whose tech makes life easier by automatically adding technical patterns on charts and helping you understand what they mean. don't get mad, get e*trade. and this is me now! i got liberty mutual. they customized my car insurance,

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you know, every member of congress who questioned bob mueller yesterday had plenty of time to prep and think and write their remarks. but "the daily show" just showed how one house republican, devin nunes was apparently seems like cribbing some of his lines from a special source. >> welcome everyone, to the last gasp of the russia collusion conspiracy theory. the democrats saluted russian sources bruce orr whose own wife worked on fusion gps funded by the dnc and the hillary clinton campaign a warrant to stop on the trump campaign. investigator and his lover a simple media operation, the

conspiracy theory senior now dead. >> is dead. >> who is quoting whom? the seven hours of mueller hearings were detailed and there are many take aways. some have gotten attention for good reason. mueller fact checking trump to testify that he didn't clear him of obstruction. mueller noting the president generally misled investigators. sounds like potential perjury to some and also rebuked donald trump as unpatriotic for inviting russian help. but there were other moments that got less initial attention, some under the radar, some so intricate they were hard for even the members of congress to process in retime in that room. so it is worthy digging into some of these key moments. we're going to do exactly that, plus report a new claim from a mueller insider when we're back in just 30 seconds. mueller insider when we're back in just 30 seconds (ding) hey, who are you? oh, hey jeff, i'm a car thief... what?! i'm here to steal your car because, well, that's my job. what? what?? what?! (laughing) what?? what?!

what?! [crash] what?! haha, it happens. and if you've got cut-rate car insurance, paying for this could feel like getting robbed twice. so get allstate... and be better protected from mayhem... like me. ♪ i'm back with mother jones david corn to dig into this. david, i was sitting in the back of that hearing room at times, it was slow and at times it was complex which means it's actually worth pulling out some of the big moments. take a look at this one with congressman jeffreys. >> the crime of obstruction of justice has three elements, true? >> true. >> your investigation found evidence that president trump took steps to terminate the special counsel. correct? >> correct. >> investigation found substantial evidence that when the president ordered don mcgahn to fire the special counsel and then lie about it, donald trump,

one, committed an obstructive act, two, connected to an official proceeding, three, did so with corrupt intent. those are the elements of obstruction of justice. >> is he on to something there? >> well, he is. he was reciting you know from mueller's own report which gave us about ten instances of varying degrees of possible charges of obstruction of justice. some were stronger. there are different elements as hakeem jeffries just went through and he picked one that was like three for three, right? there are several of those in the report. and it leads to the question, why didn't you indict and we know why. because justice department said i couldn't. under any definition that i proper would use, that's an indictable crime that the person should be charged with. >>. then you have the fact that under the law, it is legal to

lie to most people. >> yes. >> you can lie to your friends. you can lie to the ice cream counter person. you can lie to your barista. it is illegal to lie to the government which is why this moment today stood out. >> in fact, there were many questions that you asked the president that he simply didn't answer. isn't that correct? >> true. >> and there were many answers that contradicted other evidence you had gathered during the investigation. isn't that correct? >> yes. >> director mueller? >> could you say, director mueller, that the president was credible. >> i can't answer that question. >> director mueller, isn't it faer to say that the president's answers were not only inadequate and uncomplete, he wasn't always being truthful? >> i would say generally. >> david? >> here you have a republican former fbi director saying that generally, the president of the united states is not truthful, is not credible. and has any republican, any

elected republican or republican leader said anything about that? the answer is no. we have the "washington post" with over 10,000 documented cases of the president either lying and making a false statement. it just seems on this particular issue, the cult of trump has thrown up their hands and said, we don't care but that is the type of thing that if perhaps presented appropriately maybe a little bit of pizazz is something that might resonate with voters out there who don't watch cable news every day but watched that. >> and then you have what you alluded to earlier whether you can indict a president after they leave office. take a look. >> could you charge the president with a crime after he left office? >> yes. >> do you believe that he committed, you could charge the president of the united states with obstruction of justice after he left office? >> yes. >> no one's ever heard bob

mueller say that under oath in public at the conclusion of investigating donald trump. with a report sitting there that talks about conserving and preserving evidence for later potential prosecution. that's pretty news worthy and so we want to add to it with our own reporting here because on mueller night, we had the president's lawyer jay sekulow on. i asked him about that. look at his response. >> with regard to future prosecutions let's not forget the department of justice concluded there was no obstructive intent. i'm not concerned about that. i think this was a very good -- this was the democratic party's best case to put forward today as many of your friends have said, they did not move the needle. this was a good day for the president. >> what do you think of his answer? >> well, you know what the nobel laureate bob dylan said, right, ari? the pump don't work because the vandals took the handle. and we don't have a justice

department that i think is a fair arbiter. we can go on and on about bill barr's letters and pronouncements in which he mischaracterized and miscontextualized mueller's report. it's too bad there was such a long time frame seems long between when mueller got to speak for his own report as he did yesterday and what is a trump lawyer going to say? but we don't care. we don't care, we don't care. i mean, the report is -- you've had.lawyers on the show said again and again and again, this is unprecedented to produce this much evidence that gets to the issue of the president committing a crime but also to the bigger issue that mueller spoke to, unfortunately, in the afternoon after much of the day was set in stone and which he -- in which adam schiff got him to talk about schiff's words, trump's disloyalty to the country how he went along and encouraged and benefits from an attack on the united states from a foreign adversary.

that's what we should still be talking about but it's hard to do that in a political context when trump and the republicans keep gas lighting the world and the nation by saying none of that stuff happened. it doesn't matter and the real issue is why the fbi began an investigation. >> you brought up dylan. you know what he applies to the beginning of that mueller hearing? >> you tell me. >> one more cup of coffee before i go. >> to the valley below. >> to the valley below because it seemed like as the hours went on, mueller either got caffeinated or got warmed up like anyone, sometimes you need a little time and you need an extra cup. >> well, he also could have sung this is the story of crossfire hurricane. >> wow. hurricane though being a great dylan song about a false accusation. i don't think you would associate hurricane other than

that pun, that incredible pun with donald trump. >> well, i would say that what the republicans are trying to do is to prevent justice from being done. >> and that wasn't a dad joke. that was just you bringing it home. >> yeah, bringing it back home as dylan would say. >> i guess we have to stop. i could feel -- i can't hear it but i can feel a thousand remotes changing channels. i'm kidding. i love you, david. >> don't want to do that. >> no, i love you david. id love yourrences and your long-time knowledge of this story. our viewers will remember you were on this case during 2016. you were reporting things out where people said is this even important. is this real. you were ahead of the story which is why we come back to you. what a story it's been. >> yeah, and it doesn't go away. there's still a lot here that the public needs to process. >> david corn, thank you. we have a lot more to process in this show, including some other topics. this viral video with

immigration agents smashing in a car window as the suspect's children are forced to watch. later, is the uk going full donald? we'll explain. later, is the uk donald we'll explain. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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new troubles for the trump administration's immigration agenda copping out of the courts, plus pressure in congress and some reaction around the country. let me show it all to you. first a federal judge just blocked trump's attempt to try to restrict most asylum claims from central american migrants. he says it's arbitrary and capricious. that means it won't be enforced right now. meanwhile, democrats in the judiciary committee grilling them about poor conditions we've been reporting on. some children denied showers, even hot food. chair nadler pressing a top border official about trump's child separation policy. >> mother and father informed -- how is this supposed to happen

in the mother and father infor the at some point today your kid is going to be taken away, in the middle of the night someone snatches the kid. what is supposed to happen? >> we would inform the mother or father of the charges and the reason and provide them the time to say good-bye to the child. >> charges and the reason and the time in advance. >> yes, how far in advance? >> it's going to vary depending upon. >> vary from what, hours, minutes and seconds? >> i don't know what spec one you're talking to. >> what's the minimum time? >> don't have a minimum time. >> so it could be ten minutes. >> could be. >> nadler then dug in on what he is calling the trump administration's policy of "literal kidnapping." >> if it was determined that the adult was being deported was the child supposed to be returned to the parent before the deportation or the parent is suddenly in some foreign country and the child is here? >> it's probably a better question for hhs.

>> who did the deportation? >> we would do the departation. >> you would do the deportation while the child was in a different city in the united states? >> we don't do the reunification is my point. >> you would do it before the reunification without any knowledge of whether the parents are being reunified. >> yes. >> so in other words, you're kidnapping the child. >> not kidnapping the child. we follow the guidelines. >> deporting a parent without their child is literal kidnapping. >> that is the kind of oversight we're seeing on important issues. remember the trump administration's claimed they don't do family separation anymore. the truth complex. there are videos that emerged is first on social media and spreading going viral showing the toll arrests can have on families. i'm going to warn you as we do what you're about to see may be very hard to watch but it's also important to wear witness to. >> he told us he had a warrant

for his arrest and i asked him to prove it to me. he says -- he says i don't have to show you anything. >> cover your face, cover your eyes. okay? >> you're not able to do that. >> don't. don't. >> can i say to my mother and child? no, you know, right now, we're being extremely nice to you. but what you just put us through, what we had to go through, you're looking at -- why don't you talk to her right now. >> it's going to be fine, zeke. >> no, it's not. i'm scared. i don't want him to go. i don't want them to take him. >> it's okay. >> i just want to see dad again. >> these videos are spreading and they're driving a conversation activism about this precisely because people are asking is that what immigration

enforcement should look like? has it always looked like that? are these deliberate choices that start in washington from the trump administration and carried out this way? one other thing before i bring in my expert. that is other people responding. here's video posted monday showing neighbors linking arms in a human train around a van to protect a man and his son from potential arrest by i.c.e. agents. i want to bring on professor victoria desoto from the university of exs, an expert in these issues. your response? >> despicable and disgusting what we saw in your previous video. ing what has been triggered with the trump immigration policy especially these very rigorous i.c.e. enforcements is fear and panic and the type of fear and panic that we saw in that video. however, the silver lining that we saw a bit of in that second video, ari, is that the community is standing up.

so even though you are undocumenting in this country, you do have rights. in order to be taken away bity i.c.e., they have to show you a warrant signed by the judge. if you open the door, hen they can take you, but if you keep your door closes and they don't have a warrant or you're still in your car, they can't take you away. what we've seen is it spread like wildfire. educational workshops, the know your rights campaign where immigrants and immigrant advocates are helping people know what to do in a situation that they may face. so this has been the fact. interestingly enough, we've seen government officials showing immigrants and immigrant advocates how to you push up against the government. so infamously, the new governor of chicago laurie lightfoot was passing out know your rights cards throughout chicago. we've seen a lot of democratic candidates putting on their web sites the know your rights. i think this is very important. but we can't forget that at the end of the day, if you are an

immigrant, you live in constant fear in constant agony because you feel you are literally someone with a targ on their back. that's not going to change till we see donald trump out of the white house. >> you put it very well. the other thing i want to ask you is, you referenced the duality we saw there in the stories we just told. and there's also a larger due alt between the humanitarian heart break of this when you see the impact on so many people and then the fact that not minimizing or dismissing that at all in other ways, the system does still push back against what trump is trying to turn this enforcement into. i want to give two examples for your analysis. one is straightforward. a person who is unlawfully key attained so people supposed to follow law and violating it, francisco telling border agents he was a citizen giving them what he's supposed to do, state i.d. texas is, social security

card federal, wallet sized birth certificate. that didn't prevent 23 days of detention, losing 26 pounds because of what they say were the denial of basic food that he needed. and so on the one hand, people criticizing this. on the other, it is precisely there's a system with checks, balances and judges that that person gets out and don't sit there for a year. in the asylum case i mention in the introduction, controversial rule, people heard a lot about it when trump uncorked it. as of today it's stopped again because judges are intervening. walk us through those dynamics. >> in thinking through the segment, i pulled back and put on my political floefd hat on and it is democracy, small d, at its best. it's pluralism. if one part of the government is not functioning or is violating people's rights in this case, the executive branch, you're seeing other branches come in. the courts pushing back, in congress the house of

representatives and also the people pushing back. so i think it is the struggle for folks immigrants in the immigrant community. it is an uphill struggle but at the same time, i do find some consolation in that we have this checks and balances working. the question is, again, the 2020. that is going to be decisive in what happens. whether those checks and balanced are strengthened by say the senate being taken to the democratic side or the white house. about i think what is core, the core element in all of this is the people because the people aren't just spreading the no your rights campaigns. they're the ones who ultimately have to vote. i think this is where we need to keep our focus on is on grassroots. >> professor, we learn a lot from you. we'll be coming back to you. thank you for joining me tonight. >> thanks, ari. >> donald trump is the pushing other rules we're going to get to and also, trumpism spreading across the pond? that's what some see in boris johnson, a trump ally ascendent.

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you know, critics of donald trump often talk about his first term as a kind of nightmare that will end and things will go back to normal again. whatever anyone thinks of this unusual presidency, that actually imagines trump as special, a driver of everything rather than a symptom of broader challenges. but think about it. this nationalism, alleged populism, xenophobia, arising in

many different countries, along with diminishing standard for who should even hold high office. england just picked this unusual fellow to be prime minister, a thought so absurd he himself dismissed it. >> is there a possibility you could become prime minister? >> i think that is vanishing. about as much chance of reincarnated as an olive. >> you think the hair is holding you back? honestly. >> well, the hair is not holding him back. boris johnson taking over as uk prime minister. and many note his trumpian echoes. some of it is about style, like look at this, the hair. some of it is about being controversial. both of these leaders lambasted by their own dedicated british blimps. but it's also about an emerging political project with appeals to populism that need a kind of gauche celebrity. johnson wasn't taken seriously in the u.s. but he built a big

following riding the brexit wave. he also we should note did a loft race baiting. he recently invoked birtherism. and now some brits are feeling like many americans did as donald trump took on the trappings of the presidency as they witnessed this, today johnson addressing the parliament. i'm joined now by white house columnist for the hill, nile stannidge. good to see you. >> good see you. >> just for context, let's take in a little boris over the years. >> it was all going well, and then not so well. >> this is the best thing. he pulls down the volunteer with him. >> it's going well. very, very well-organized. what they do, get me a ladder. >> sir, i ask you, what is

happening? >> well, i mean, when you're negotiating a complicated issue like trying to go through with brexit, what other man would you choose as a man indulging in those kind of antics. but there is a serious point here, ari, and you alluded to it in your introduction. boris johnson like the prepresidency donald trump has been dismissed as a kind of buffoon. and sometimes i think the buffoonery or the perceived buffoonery distracts from the belligerence here. johnson has said a lot of nasty things, a lot of racist things, some homophobic things. he has seized upon a kind of sentimental old england image, much in the same way or at least in a parallel way how president trump plays back to a supposedly golden era in the united states. >> and you mention that and it's a bit like brexit was trumpian

as policy. it wasn't taken very seriously. it is happening apparently. here is boris johnson on that, again, an appeal to working class people, but many have criticized this will he be in their interests long-term. take a look. >> people who bet against britain are going to lose their shirts, because we're going restore trust in our democracy. and we're going fulfill the repeated promises of parliament to the people and come out of the eu on october 31st no ifs or buts. >> now? >> well, i mean, boris johnson is a bad person to be talking about trust. this is a person in common with the president has shown a disdain for truth in his political career, and sometimes a disdain for basic indecency. now he does have in common with trump an anti-elite kind of image. in johnson's case, it's just as peculiar coming from a background that includes eaton college, the most elite private

school in britain and oxford university, as much as it is donald trump acting as a man of the people having resided in a gold tower for quite a few years. but johnson has seized on this anti-elite sentiment to his own benefit. >> niles stannidge, you break it down clearly and concisely. thanks for joining me tonight. >> thanks, ari. >> we wanted to get that international story in and we'll be back with one more thing. ♪ {tires screeching} {truck honking} [alarm beeping]

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one more thing on a story we've been reporting on tonight. senators mazie hirono and tim kaine tomorrow are going to discuss their visit to a very controversial immigrant detention center in el paso, and they're going to do it on "the beat." so stay tuned for that 6:00 p.m. eastern tomorrow. but don't go anywhere right now. "hardball" is up next. the russians are here. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. we could not have a more important guest than we have tonight, the chairman of the house judiciary committee is coming here in a few minutes. tonight we're going to ask jerry nadler of new york to tell us what the democratic house will do now in light of the historic revelations highlighted yesterday by special counsel robert mueller of the trump administration's cooperation with a foreign power in the corruption of