authority they have to use it. we know the president will travel next tuesday and wednesday and we will see if this topic gets on the president's schedule. that'll wrap things up for me this hour. ali velshi, nice to see you again. >> the biggest number there was chronic homeless. chronic homelessness is not something that rounding them up and putting them in shelters will help. they don't go to shelters because of addiction and mental illness. there are issues for this. that doesn't work. >> the crisis has ballooned in california. it's always been an issue. but it really has ballooned in recent years. and a big part of the problem. it's not just those who are addicted and those with mental illnesses although that is an issue. it's people who cannot afford housing. >> that's right. los angeles all the way to silicon valley this problem has been exacerbated for years. so it's got to be a holistic approach i know you've discussed before. >> i spoke to the mayor about it a few months ago. he said there are plans and there's progress being made to

alleviate some of that. there's more affordable housing in the works and he hopes the issue will be better in the next year or two. we'll see if that happens. >> well, this is a blight on our nation that that many people are without homes. >> completely. >> very good to see you back, my friend. we've missed you. >> you could have bangs too. >> i've been admiring yours. it might be awhile before i have them. we'll share yours. thank you. all right. it is thursday, september 12th. the last ditch plea to trump on guns. after spending 40 minutes on a call with trump and his staff, pat toomey and chris murphy and joe manchin are waiting for any word from the white house. they were told to expect a decision on gun control measures as soon as today. they've been urging the president to support the manchin-toomey gun legislation that expands background checks to cover private sellers on the internet and gun shows. more than 24 hours ago, the president said he and senators were coming up with something that is acceptable to everybody

on a gun safety measure. an official told nbc news that trump was to be given summaries of several ideas endorsed by members of congress and white house aides. as of now the president has yet to indicate what bills he's likely to support or make any announcements on the issue. but senator manchin is holding out hope. >> i'm still very encouraged, i'll find out today. the president knows this is all up to him. he comes across that he wants something done. okay? and there's people pushing back hard on him. people within his own inner circle. >> all right. joining me now from the white house is nbc's kelly o'donnell. kelly, there is legislation in congress right now passed by the house of representatives stalled in the senate with mitch mcconnell saying he's not moving ahead with anything until he knows what the president will sign. i guess this is the other part of that transaction. finding out what the president's interested in? >> reporter: our understanding is that the white house is

looking to take pieces of existing legislation like you've already indicated, some that has passed, some that has been put forward before, and some ideas and concepts that people have been talking about. and put together an idea that the president can get behind. leader mcconnell in the senate has made it very clear that the only way he sees the use of the senate is to put something on the floor that has a chance of getting the president's signature. we've been told the president was briefed today on some of these ongoing conversations. he's had some of them himself with leaders in the senate, members of the staff level from the white house to the senate as well. so there have been lots of conversations about what elements might be able to work. one of the things we're looking for today is the president is headed to baltimore later today to speak to the house republicans and one of the things that would certainly come up in this kind of a conversation when he's talking with fellow republicans about what needs to happen legislatively on the agenda in the fall and with campaigns in

mind is where can they find some common ground. we know that they don't want to do something that's going to sort of stir the ire of the national rifle association. the president has been certainly in touch with them as well. but also looking for a way can they do something that can get bipartisan support. maybe make a difference in some of these horrific cases we've seen and at the same time not draw the direct opposition and aggressive counterpunching from the nra. that's a very high bar. the president has said repeatedly he wants to do this. we hope to have a chance to put some questions to him as he departs for that baltimore event later this afternoon to see where his thinking is right now. but the white house has been saying they believe they can find something. the big questions have always been, is it something the president will embrace publicly? will that be enough to get it across the finish line and will it have a practical impact if they can, in fact, pass legislation? >> three simple words.

acceptable to everyone when it comes to guns in this country, that is a high, high bar. good to see you, friend. kelly o'donnell at the white house. the gun safety coalition that helped pressure walmart to end its sale of assault weapon ammunition -- gun safety groups that includes march for ourves, move on write american employers are already doing more than congress to keep us safe from gun violence. now we're calling on you to do more. in addition to lobbying lawmakers to pass gun reforms the group calls for companies to, quote, break any financial or business ties with the gun industry in organizations that stand in the way of gun reform. ban open carry in their place of business. stop political donations to nra-backed lawmakers and politicians. and fund locally-run gun violence intervention programs, gun buybacks, and other incentives to help prevent and reduce gun deaths. join me now is the author of guns down america.

he's the authors of "guns down: how to defeat the nra and build a safer future with fewer guns." i want to start with you on what i was just talking to kelly about. mitch mcconnell, the leader in the senate, has said i'm not putting a vote to the floor unless i know what the president is going to approve. there are a lot of people who say that's not how legislation should get done in this country with a co-equal branch of government, but it's the reality when it comes to guns of how it gets done. >> well, that's certainly not how it should get done particularly on an issue where there's overwhelming consensus that they have to raise the standard for gun ownership in this country. and frankly, ali, i think that it's the responsibility of the champions of gun reform. particularly in the senate to do everything they can to help move this issue along. that means filibuster. that means place holds on nominees and on key legislation. because i think americans all across the country and now we're

also hearing from businesses, they want to see a fight on this issue. they want to see their leaders, their champions fight for them and fight to help build safer communities. >> so when did that change? because there was a time not many years ago where saying i don't want open carry in my stores, starbucks experienced this, got a response that was frightening to american businesses. and then you saw a movement with p walmart, with dick's sporting goods. now you've got one cig tour to the letter. what has changed and why? >> well, this has been going on for awhile. partly because the gun violence problem has gotten worse. the weapons have become more deadly. but after parkland, we saw such an outpouring particularly of young people and they think both american corporations and frankly lawmakers saw where their future customers were on this issue and where their future voters were on that issue. and both of those things

combined i think have brought us to a point where the center has shifted on guns. and now we're even talking about gun licensing, gun buybac communities. >> when you look at the numbers, you mentioned an overwhelming amount of people support background checks and red flag laws. the bar is so remarkably low, the number of americans who support it is so remarkably high, there is nothing in american politics it seems to have this degree of dissidence to it. and that speaks to the success of the nra. >> well, but that's also why we're calling on large american employers who we know prioritize the safety of their customers and their employees to today in 2019 do everything they can to help keep us safe. right? and we're calling on them to put their money where their mouth is. we know they support the kunds

of reforms that we've discussed. but we need them to stop making political contributions to lawmakers and candidates who also take money from the nra. we need them to instruct their lobbyists to use their relationships on capitol hill to really advance these measures. >> that's the trickier part, right? it can be done by any company that wishes to do it. going a little further in breaking your relationships with financial institutions, banks, insurance companies that do business with the gun industry is a little more complicated. and not supporting candidates who are highly ranked by the nra is yet higher of a bar. >> i understand that the reason why people like cory gardner and senator thune, for instance, top nra recipients, the reason why they get dollar amounts from corporations is because they feel like they represent their economic interests. right? not because of the nra connection.

but the argument we're making as a coalition that represents millions of americans is that there is no higher priority for you as a business than to keep your employees and your customers safe. particularly for public facing stores who interact with a lot of consumers. so this is their moment to act. it's no longer okay to just sit on the sidelines. they have to become active participants in the fight for their lives. >> good to talk to you. the kpiktive director of guns down america. top business leaders are putting pressure on congress today to do its part and take action on gun control. 145 ceos from some of the largest companies in the world including uber, gap, twitter signed a letter urging the u.s. to enact red flag laws and expand background checks. red flag laws enable law enforcement to remove guns from individuals that a judge deems a threat to themselves and others. in the letter, the executives

write in part doing nothing about a gun violence is unacceptable. thaez are bipartisan, widely support bid the american public. it is tame for the senate to take action. quote, ceos are wired to take action on things that are going to impact their business. and gun violence is impacting everybody's business right now. onto another issue that's killed hundreds of thousands of americans. the opioid epidemic. shortly after news dropped in this very hour yesterday that purdue pharma and its owners the sackler family have reached a tentative deal to settle thousands of lawsuits brought by municipal and state governments, at least 20 states say they're rejecting that deal arguing it doesn't go far enough. >> among the 20 states that have not signed onto this framework, obviously pennsylvania and other big states like new york. other hard-hit states are saying no because they realize this is absolutely inadequate.

it is a slap in the face to the people who are suffering here in pennsylvania and akrss the country. this is really a story about a bunch of greedy billionaires and that is the sackler family, the people that own purdue, being unwilling to reach into their personal fortunes and pay for the damage that they've created here in pennsylvania and across the country. >> thousand, the deal's still being worked out. here's what we know about it so far. under current terms, the sackler family would give up control of purdue pharma. it would be turned into a for-profit trust. those profits would be used to pay the plaintiffs. the deal does not include any admission of wrong doing. and the sackler family would play $3 billion in cash over seven years. the deal is valued between $10 billion and $12 billion. the sackler family said, quote, this is the most effective way to address the urgency of the current public health crisis and

to find real solutions. not endless litigation. my next guest is now preparing filings to sue the sackler family directly. attorney general, good to see you. talk to me about what is unsatisfactory about the proposed deal. >> sure. pleasure to be with you. i understand the context here. we are in the deadliest drug epidemic in our nation's history. and the sackler family and purdue pharma is as responsible or more responsible than any other family or company in creating this crisis. it is imperative that they help pay to clean it up. and there simply is not enough accountability in this -- in the proposed deal where their payment is secure enough for my satisfaction. and i've got to do whatever i can to fight for the people of north carolina. because too many individuals are dying. too many families are struggling. and too many communities are suffering. >> i talked to josh shapiro of

pennsylvania earlier today. i was asking him what success lacks like to you. because there are a lot of americans who would like the sackler family to apologize, to take responsibility for this, to admit culpability. but really your job and the job of other attorneys general is to get the best settlement. to get the most money to solve this problem that has cost us probably trillions of dollars. what does success look like? >> success to me would be there is a security that the payment that they're promising will actually be made. and just by the way in terms of your reporting and this is something i think the sacklers put out. that this $10 billion to $12 billion figure, i have no idea where it came from. the numbers anyone is talking about is half of those numbers. so in the real cash, it's not in purdue pharma. it's in the sackler family. they've organized the scheme for a decade where they have sucked

billions and billions and billions out of this country leaving a carcass of a pharmaceutical company they're content to throw into bankruptcy because they knew this day of reckoning was coming. they have to put up meaningful cash that's secured so that we know money will go to help treat people who are dying. >> you don't seem to be interested in that deal. so what. that's not your problem and go where the money is. >> i think what the sacklers were trying to do was to use bankruptcy to shield their personal assets. they themselves are not declaring bankruptcy. they have billions and billions of dollars. they're putting this carcass of a company into bankruptcy that's worth anywhere from zero to $2 billion depending on how things pan out. so they want to use the nation's laws to shield their wealth that they sucked out of the company having made all this profit selling drugs to people in the united states. they need to put up real dollars. and we have to have certainly

that that money is real. >> attorney general josh steyn of north carolina, thank you for joining me. >> thank you. a new bill passed in california is trying to affect companies like uber and lyft. and how those companies are fighting back. plus we are less than five hours away from the next democratic presidential debate in houston. this one's going to look different from the previous two. we'll explain why. you are watching msnbc. s two. we'll explain why. you are watching msn bc (classical music playing throughout)

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california is set to reshape how companies do business in the growing gig economy. final approval to a bill that would require gig workers to be classified as employees instead of independent contractors. the bill's author says companies often classify them as independent contractors. the legislation codifies a supreme court decision last year which created a test for determining whether someone is an independent contractor. now, that decision says to be a true independent contractor, a worker must be free from a company's control. not work -- not do work that is central to the company's business. and have an independent business in that trade. the bill now goes onto california's governor gavin newsom who has said he supports it. it is home to many of the companies at the hard heart of

the gig economy including ride share services like uber and lyft. they consider their drivers to be independent contractors and not employees. and both companies said they will fight the law. uber's chief legal officer told reporters that several previous rulings have found the drivers' work is outside the usual course of uber's business which is serving as a technology platform for several different types of digital marketplaces. this is key to this whole argument. a lyft spokesperson says, quote, we are fully prepared to take this issue to the voters of california to preserve the freedom and access drivers and riders want and need. this exempts workers in a number of professions including doctors, dentist, lawyers, hair stylists, accountants. joining me is a staff writer at the new yorker who writes about the gig economy among other things. and she's also the author of "black edge."

thank you for joining me. >> good to be here. >> to some this would be obvious. of course drivers are central to uber and lyft's business. so how could they get around that law? but uber and lyft have a different argument entirely. >> well, of course. it's patently absurd on the surface that the drivers do not work for uber. when you look at it, uber does not direct those drivers. the drivers don't report to managers at uber. uber is simply providing an app, a piece of software that makes it possible for the drivers to connect with people who want rides. and i've noted that the ceo of uber has been going around describing drivers at microentrepreneurs. that's how they're trying to characterize their drivers. >> we have talked to people in the gig economy to tell you about the freedom they've got the fact that they kind of do in some cases run their own business.

it's an interesting intellectual argument that you're going to have to settle at some point in the next few years because the gig economy is only growing. >> obviously there's some people who driving for uber and lyft who do not want to be employees. your taxes go up significantly when you're a w-2 employee. you're more restricted when and how you work. and many of those people are using uber to earn money on the side. on the other hand, this is sort of a long overdue example of how some of these new economy success stories -- >> are not always -- >> well, they're suddenly crashing up against some of the traditional constraints that sort of regular brick and mortar companies have had to do. >> if the majority of lyft and uber drivers, if the narrative were they were doing particularly well. that we've created this great efficiency in a system where everybody who needs a car gets a car at an affordable rate and

everybody is making money, but the thing is we're hearing some drivers not making good money at this. >> i ra ed a financial report about lyft recently that described the revenue growth that both lyft and uber have experienced being placed on labor arbitrage. this analyst said labor arbitrage was the basis of these companies. that means the revenue growth has come from squeezing down the amount of money the drivers get. and of course more and more drivers have piled in to trying to drive. so the fact is each one of them has been make k less money even while the companies are reporting big gains in revenue. and both companies are losing a lot of money now. it's hard to imagine to think how they could make it work if they suddenly had to pay payroll taxes for hundreds of thousands of drivers. >> what happens here? because this law was written as a result of a court case. so one assumes that it is based on a legal argument in a court

challenge. >> previous cases have succeeded with this argument that the drivers are not technically employees. now, it seems clear to me that this was designed with companies like uber and lyft in mind. but i really doubt that the california legislature wants to sort of kill those companies. you know, a lot of people rely on them. they made transportation a lot more convenient for people. i strongly suspect that there'll be some kind of deal worked out. i understand the two parties are still talking. so there are ways that they could maybe find some middle ground. clearly they're not going to be able to go on, you know, making money off of the sort of arms length very insecure status of these drivers. >> thank you as always. up next, for the first time in the 2020 race, two front runners will find themselves on the same debate stage at the same time. how past disagreements going back more than 15 years could resurface when joe biden and elizabeth warren go head-to-head. you are watching msnbc. warren g head-to-head you are watching msnbc what does it take, to call yourself an explorer?

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the fire killed 34 people over labor day weekend. molly hunter has more on this breaking story. what's going on here? >> reporter: ali, that's right. before the ntsb even came out with its summary today and we'll talk about that in a sec, the coast guard decided to issue a safety bulletin. now, they've said, quote, we hope that boat captains consider limiting the unsupervised charging of lithium-ion batteries and extensive use of power trips. one of the things investigators are looking closely at after that labor day fire that killed 34 people is whether a lot of people were charging their phones. electronics. you know, it's a cuba diving ship. people have underwater cameras and gopros. one of the big questions was whether people were charging them overnight and whether that contributed to the fire. now, we have just heard from truth aquatics, the boat's owner on this subject. and they tell us, we all hope and anticipate new regulations

will come as a result of the investigation. and then i'm just reading here, they say we would ask whether safety agencies that have been aware of the dangers of lithium-ion batteries in other modes of transportation have considered applying this to the charter boating industry. and they confirmed to us they were complying with all safety measures at the time. so big question is whether or not regulations will change. >> and that's not the only big headline out of this fire. we've also heard investigators say all crew members were asleep when the fire started. we do know, obviously, that some crew members got off the boat. what do we know about this? >> that's exactly right. that's the big headline we got today from the ntsb. they did not say a cause. they did not have any information on where that fire started in this two-page summary. that may take up to a year. but what they said and what we've been questioning and suspecting for the last couple of weeks is all six crew members were asleep. boats like this, this kind of dive boat was to have a roving watchman awake.

one person who was roaming the 75 foot boat at night checking it out, making sure everything was okay. if all six people were asleep at the time of the fire, that means no one was awake as the watchman. the company also got back to us minutes ago about this and they tell nbc news, quote, based on our internal investigation at this point one crew member was awake and inspected the gally and saloon area as late at 2:30 a.m. to make sure everything was safe and sound and it was. a ali, that fire started at 3:14 a.m. on september 2nd. that person got up, checked it out. everything was okay. and went back to bet. that is why there's a criminal probe that has been launched. but a lot of big questions still unanswered. >> molly, thank you. molly hunter for us. just a few hours, ten democrats from the pack of 2020 hopefuls are going to face off all on one stage in houston. three front runners have emerged in recent polls. former vice president joe biden and senators elizabeth warren and bernie sanders. one of the big story lines of

the night, this debate's going to be the first time that biden and warren are going to be on the same stage at the same time. here's what the stage is going to look like. those polling the highest are closest to the center. as you can see "your businesbid the middle. our team of road warriors are down in houston ahead of the big event. vonn hilliard, shaquille brewster, and ali vitale join me. let's start with you. you've been covering elizabeth warren. what's she got to do tonight? >> reporter: i think you and i have talked about this before. but her campaign doesn't want this to come out as a slug fest. their scenario is that warren is able to get on the stage and do what she does at her own campaign stops. talk about her narrative and infuse that with a lot of plans. we know the plans are the things she talks about on the campaign trail. the question is if her opposing candidates on the stage are going to allow her to make those points or if the plans

themselves are going to be front and center on the attack. you've heard some of these other candidates allude to the idea it's nice to have plans but it's another thing to execute them. i think the warren campaign is prepared for that line of attack, but it's something that might be an ether. >> vonn hilliard, you've been covering joe biden. he focuses on donald trump and not on his other candidates or he trains his sights on elizabeth warren who's nipping at his heels. >> reporter: ali, you saw in the first two debates, it was joe biden who was the defender of the obama policies. or the obama administration's immigration policies. but he was also playing his own defense when it came to attacks from kamala harris over his civil rights record. whether it came from attacks from cory booker. the question here tonight is ali just said that elizabeth warren is not looking to make this a slug fest. at the same time, look at who he is surrounded by on that stage. he will not have other -- sort

of those other middle of the road candidates. there is no michael bennet or steve bullock up on stage with him. the question is they may not explicitly go after joe biden tonight. at the same time it's his stage to indirectly address policy differences that the others may be throwing his way. >> so let's talk about what's going to happen with bernie sanders. sanders in a lot of these polls consistently polls as number two. what's he got to do? >> reporter: that's right. part of it is reminding people he's still polling in that second place. that he deserves to in the front runner conversation. elizabeth warren and vice president biden, they are going to have lot of the attention in this debate because this is the first time they're on the stage together. however, they say if you look at what sanders has been doing over the last couple of weeks, if he

brought back the bigger crowds, he's been releasing plans. he had five policy proposals since that last debate. they think that is going to draw people into him. and that's something he's going to focus on tonight. i think one other point here we'll make is in these polls when you look at matchups between bernie sanders and president donald trump, bernie beats trump. i think you'll hear that on the debate stage later today. >> you three are making me want to watch this thing. i appreciate the coverage you've given to these candidates in preparing us for it tonight. still ahead, this just in. the trump administration is rolling back more environmental protections. we'll explain when we come back. you're watching msnbc. tions. we'll explain when we come back. you're watching msnbc. t of 4 pe. ...90% clearer skin at 4 months... ...after just 2 doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections... ...and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis.

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when president trump was asked why he skipped a meeting on climate change at the g7 summit in france last month, he responded by saying this. >> i want the cleanest water on earth. i want the cleanest air on earth. and that's what we're doing. and i'm an environmentalist. a lot of people don't understand that. i think i know more about the environment than most people. i want clean air. i want clean water. i want a wealthy country. i want a spectacular country with jobs, with pensions, with so many things. and that's what we're getting. >> i'm an environmentalist. i think i know more about the environment than anyone else. while the president claims to be

an environmentalist, his actions suggest otherwise. they rolled back obama regulations that limited greenhouse gas emissions from oil and gas drills and vehicles. now the trump administration is going to repeal another obama water of the united states rule which defined what bodies of water fall under the pledge. i want to take a closer look at this before we discuss it. the clean water act laid out regulations and permitting requirements for anyone discharging pollution into the waters of the united states. thethat major navigable waterways should be protected. so in 2015 the obama administration expanded the bodies of water that should be protected to include smaller waterways such as roadside

ditches and wetlands that connect to larger bodies of water. the goal was to prevent pollution from reaching surface water. it's an obvious goal to protect surface water, ground water, and drinking water. now, opponents called it a power grab that infringed on the rights of farmers, rural landowners, and real estate developers. joining us to talk about the impact of this move is brian khan of earther. he's also a lecturer for the program in climate and society. i'm trying to get to the answer. who wins when we do stuff like this? we have a list of losers because we have two municipalities newark and flint which don't have clean drinking water. we understand drinking water is a base necessity in life. but who wins? who is advantaged by this move? >> i mean, you're absolutely right. everyone's the loser here. we all need water to drink. the winner is big agriculture at the end of the day. farms that have a million dollars in revenue, those farms

got two-thirds of all farm revenue. those people raking in money from this roll back, they won't have to do as much environmental protection work. we're not talking about benefitting mom and pop farms. big corporate agriculture. >> the argument was that it has an impact on small farmers. "the new york times" noted in its piece on the repeal, under the rule farmers using land near streams and wetlands are restricted from doing certain kinds of plowing and from planting certain crops and would have to use epa permits to use chemical pesticides and fertilizers that could have run off into those bodies of water. those restrictions will now be lifted. i can't even imagine that's the case. restrictions on using chemical pesticides that can run off into bodies of water that lead to drinking water will now be lifted. >> you look at what happened in the midwest this spring. the heavy floods. more heavy cycles, more floods

and runoff. the waters of the u.s. were a way to summon that runoff. now it's all hands off and whatever ends up running off these fields is going to end up in drinking water. the gulf of mexico. people that rely on the gulf are also going to suffer for this. it's not just a farm issue. it's a whole country issue. >> it does seem in line, though, with both the deregulation of this administration and the idea that despite president trump you heard him there in france saying he's an environmentalist, he knows more about the environment than most people. that's something that has been demonstrated by this administration. >> they've rolled back on methane emissions, clean cars, coal ash. i mean, now this. you're looking at a whole slew of things that indicate this is not an administration for the environment. it's an administration for big corporate polluters. >> but brian, this has not been a republican/democratic divide for all of history. some of the strongest in this

history was put in place by republican presidents and administrations. how is clean water a partisan issue? >> it shouldn't be. i think you see this drift over time where there wasn't. the clean air act, clean water act, these were republicans things. we saw big money get into politics and the republican party has just drifted further and further away from those conservation, conservative ideals about conserving the land towards something that's much more radicals. >> and of course the first act the president took on climate was to pull the united states out of the paris accord. >> right. and that's a perfect example of how, again, we're not just looking at the rules that affect people in the u.s. these are things that will have long ranging global implications. depending on how this next election goes, they could last for decades and centuries into the future. >> the reason when you talk about big money came into this changing republican attitudes on this, part of that is because

this is shrouded in the idea of deregulation. don't stand in the way of businesses making money. >> right. those businesses also have a vested interest. for a company like exxon. their money is taking oil out of the ground and selling it. you look at they have spent decades. that is an extension of that for big agriculture. you're looking at a really sort of corporate pushback against things that benefit all of us. >> good the talk to you. thank you for being with me. brian khan lecturer for colombia climate and society. msnbc is teaming up on climate change with georgetown and our daily planet september 19th and 20th. chris hayes and i will host and moderate a two-day climate forum with the 2020 presidential candidates. up next, how a vote this morning sets up a line of hearings next week to investigate the president. you are watching msnbc. investig. you are watching msnbc

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the house judiciary committee has voted to expand its powers to investigate president trump as some democrats work to drum up support for a more formal impeachment process. >> we will begin next week an aggressive series of hearings investigating allegations of

corruption, obstruction, and abuse of power against the president. some call this process an impeachment inquiry. some call it an impeachment investigation. there is no legal difference between these terms. and i no longer can argue that nomenclature. >> he doesn't want to talk about the nomenclature. joining he is elizabeth hoelz. she was on the judiciary committee during watergate and voted to impeach president richard nixon. what was he talking about? >> well, basically, the committee passed a resolution today giving itself powers to conduct an investigation, an impeachment investigation or impeachment inquiry. those powers include questions, giving counsel the right to question, powers also include giving the president opportunity to be heard on some issues and to be informed about some issues

so it's an issue of fairness which i think is really important. so they put a marker in the ground and said now we are formally going forward with an impeachment investigation. what's different is they don't have authorization from the house of representatives to conduct an impeachment inquiry. but that may be just a technicality because they are going ahead conducting the hearings, trying to get the evidence, and then trying to determine whether or not there should be articles of impeachment. >> is there any evidence they can't get without making this more formal or changing the nomenclature? >> yeah. the evidence they can't get is what the president was going to try to stop them from getting. that's what this is really motivated by because the president has stonewalled. he said -- >> not cooperative. >> he said i'm not going to cooperate with congress on many levels. no one who worked for me is going to cooperate. he's tried to stop them. he's tried to stop banks from turning over information. he's tried to stop his former white house staff from turning over information.

he himself has refused to turn over information. >> so let me ask you this. >> that's a big stymie. >> people who talk to donald trump a lot say he's not one for details. so if you were donald trump's chief of staff or white house lawyer and he said what does this actually mean to me, what would you say? >> well, i would say the house judiciary committee is getting much more serious. the house of representatives is getting much more serious. they're also trying to buttress their cases in court because they have gone to court to get the information that president trump has tried to stop them from getting. so that shows much more seriousness. on the other hand, we still don't have a house resolution authorizing an impeachment. >> so let's talk about that because jerry nadler has been on the same page as nancy pelosi on this. let's hear what she had to say about it. >> so i stand by what we had been doing all along. i support what is happening in the judiciary committee because that enables them to do their

process of interrogation and their investigation. and i salute them for that work. >> is this specific language not important? how should the american people understand when members are speaking very differently about it? >> you're the only ones who are sewing this up. >> it's not true, ma'am. >> -- entire country. come with me sometime, and you will hear from the american people are saying. they understand that impeachment is a very divisive measure. but if we have to go there, we'll have to go there. >> so that last sentence after that conversation with geoff bennett is important because nancy pelosi has been sort of implying that the whole time that there are few in her words, and i'm paraphrasing, a few people are blood-thirsty for impeachment. she's not looking to go there as anything but a last resort. >> i think that that's true. and i think that's what's happening now. that's why the house judiciary committee is going forward still because the allegations against the president are really

serious. mueller report shows evidence of obstruction of justice, a crime. we also have substantial evidence that the president violated the constitution by putting money into his pocket from foreign governments and state governments. there are other things that he's done. so congress can't pull back. but on the other hand what she wants to do is make sure that the evidence is fully there, the american people are educated. and that's what happened during watergate. by the way the watergate impeachment process was not divisive. why? because congress acted in the house judiciary committee acted in a very fairway, the american people understood what was happening, we accumulated the evidence. we had a solid record and when we presented it to the american people they supported what we did. i hope that's what's going to happen here. elizabeth holtzman, former u.s. congresswoman. we'll be right back after this quick break. i call this dish, "stress." stress can also affect our bodies. so, i'm partnering with cigna to remind you that your emotional

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usaid has announced that the united states is adding nearly $4 million in new humanitarian assistance to the bahamas. that brings the united states' assistance total to more than $10 million. usaid also announced there are more than 100 members of a disaster assistance response team on the ground. they're providing food, shelter, and health support. many portions of the bahamas -- look at these pictures, are devastated after hurricane dorian. right now authorities say there are still some 1300 people who are missing or unaccounted for. that wraps up this hour for me. i'm going to see you right back here tonight at 8:00 p.m.

eastern for "all in with chris hayes" and then tomorrow at 1:00 p.m. with stephanie ruhle. tune in msnbc.com/now. the msnbc app, and apple tv. and you can always find me on social media, twitter, facebook, ins grarjs snapchat even and linkedin. "deadline: white house" with nicolle wallace starts now. ♪ hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. we are covering the rapidly developing story around the legal fate of former acting director of the fbi andrew mccabe. mccabe has been on the receiving end of a tax from the sitting president who categorize hulled him everything from a sleeze bag to someone guilty of committing treason. at this hour mccabe is once again in the center of an extremely fluid legal situation that could finally decide his fate and answer the question about whether or not an indictment for mccabe is coming. mccabe who took over the fbi when director jim comey was abruptly fired by trump made the

decision to