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tv   The Rachel Maddow Show  MSNBC  September 13, 2019 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT

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>> stay on it. natasha bertrand, thank you for being on tonight. appreciate it. that is it for "all in" this evening."rachel maddow show" is >> looking forward to seeing your show tomorrow. >> thank you. >> thank you for joining us this hour as well. i want to be the first to tell you right off the bat that massachusetts senator elizabeth warren is going to be here not tonight and also not monday but on tuesday of next week. we have just locked in an interview date for senator elizabeth warren who's going to be here live in studio with me on tuesday night. now as far as we can tell, the reason she's going to be in new york early next week and, therefore, available to come to the studio is because she's apparently planning a big speech in a dramatic setting on monday evening. elizabeth warren's campaign is planning a big speech by their candidate in washington square
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park in greenwich village in the heart of downtown new york city. they have been promoting this for a while on facebook and otherwise to their supporters. it hasn't had any press pickup as far as i can tell, but it's clear from their organizing effort that they expect this to be kind of a landmark event for the warren campaign. it's a kind of time and place and setting that could in fact result in a very, very big turnout but we think that's why she's here. that will be monday night in new york city. elizabeth warren. we will have her here on the show the day after on tuesday. i wanted to make sure to remember to tell you that right at the top of the show. what we're going to start tonight's news here in kleiner tear garth ten park. kleiner tiergarten park. it is in central berlin. right by the -- looks like spree river. it's right by the river that
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runs right through that part of berlin. kleiner tiergarten park. this is where angela merkel has her office. it's a nice spot. very centrally located. and three weeks ago today on friday august 23rd it was very nice day to be out in the park in central berlin. temps in the low 80s, nice, sunny day. lots of people out and about and enjoying the summer weather, i'm sure. just before noon that day three weeks ago two 17-year-olds who were out in kleiner tiergarten park saw something strange happen. they saw a guy ride up on an ebike right up to the edge of the spree river and there he threw his ebike into the river. then they say they thought they also saw him maybe throw some sort of a bag and maybe also a wig? i mean, if that was you, 17
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years old in a random park at noon on a summer friday, i mean, when i was 17 i would think that was hilarious because i thought everything was hilarious. no matter what age you are, you would also think that was suspicious, right? they flagged down a cop and within minutes the guy was detained. police eventually did pull an ebike out of the river, which he had thrown in there. they recovered the bike. they reportedly recovered the wig. they reportedly recovered a glock handgun with a silencer screwed onto it and a bag that among other things included reportedly a package of paprika which is theorized might have been planned to use to throw sniffer dogs off the scent had this suspect ultimately ended up being chased by police dogs. he did not end up getting chased by police dogs because just regular police officers caught him right away. when police later pieced together what had happened in the few minutes before those 17-year-olds saw this guy
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throwing all of this junk into the river, the story was almost unbelievably dramatic because what had apparently happened just before this guy was seen throwing things into the river, what had happened just immediately before that is a that allegedly he had just killed a guy in the park in what was i guess you'd call it a bike-by shooting. here's how "the wall street journal" wrote it up. he road up to the victim using a bicycle which had been placed near the scene before the shooting. he sped towards his victim and shot the man twice in the head with a glock .26 handgun fitted with a silencer. "the new york times'" account of this killing, after the two shots to the head the killer biked away a few hundred yards south to the river bank. that's when he threw all of this stuff in the river. then according to the times, quote, police found the suspect in nearby shrubs. he was in the bushes. what was he doing in the bushes?
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well, he had changed his clothes and his appearance and seemed ready to travel by scooter. he had a large amount of money with him. when they say he had changed his appearance while he was hiding in the bushes. here's how the guardian newspaper in london flushes that out. quote, the alleged assassin changed his outfit to blend in as a tourist wearing a pink shirt, sandals and a neck pouch con take a passport and a large amount of cash. so he goes and allegedly kills the guy, races to the river, throws -- takes his wig off, throws his wig into the river, gets off his bike and throws it into the river. throws the gun into the river, bag into the river. rushes into the underbrush, changes his clothes and starts to get on a scooter that he stashed in the bushes to ride away. i mean, he's dressed up in the pink getup looking totally different than he did before when they find him in the bushes. we know the bit about the bike
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and then changing over into the scooter is definitely legit in part because german police have since released these weird, very well lit modern art like photos of the actual bike that they pulled out of the river, that's on the left, and the escotter that he had with him in the bushes when they caught him there changing into his pink shirt and tourist sandals after he had taken off his wig. german police also released this photo of the suspect who they arrested although they did not release his name. according to multiple reports, they didn't release his name because they have actually no idea what his name is. and at this point in the detective story, if you read detective stories you know, that the good plot then shifts to the victim to try to figure out what the heck happened here with this crime. now that we've gotten this far with the alleged pefrpetrator. the man that was walking across the park on a sunny day in a western european country, steps
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away from the seat of government, right? he's walking through the park. his assassin approaches him from behind on an ebike, shoots him from behind at least twice in the head, perhaps additionally in the shoulder. he then rides off several hundred yards towards the river. the man who was killed, the man who died in the park that day was reportedly a 40-year-old citizen of the nation of georgia. ethnically he was chechian. he had been a mid-level commander who led chechen forces. but even after russia put down that uprising in the early 2000s, this young commander continued to be, i guess, an annoyance to russia, at least somebody they might notice. after the uprising was put down he fled to georgia, nation of georgia. he made himself useful to the
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government of georgia. at one point he's report today have played a key role as a mediator. this guy was sent in as a trusted figure who the chechians would talk to to brianne end to the standoff on behalf of the george began government. he helped them against russia. so it will perhaps not surprise you to hear that while he was living in georgia he faced repeated attempts on his life and he and his associates blamed on russia. in 2009 he was reportedly poisoned. in 2015 he was driving in georgia's capital city when he was ambushed. he was reportedly hit and injured in that attack but he survived. in the wake of that assassination attempt in 2015 he fled to germany. now because of his past, because of the repeated attempts on his life he requested protection from the german government. in 2017 the director of a nonprofit group that had
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supported this guy's relocation to germany supported his asylum application in germany, the non-profit chief wrote a letter on the man's behalf expressing concern for his safety. we know because "the new york times" obtained that letter. they quote it in part saying he is so massively pursued by the russian side na his life is in danger and he needs special protection. quote, i urge you to grant him special protection and not to send him back to where putin's long arm can reach him. the idea being that you should keep him here in germany, putin can't reach him. despite those requests the german government had not yet provided him any special protection. "the wall street journal" interviews a former official in the george began government who had kept in touch with the man until recently. he tells the journal the man was still trying to obtain state-appointed body guards through the court system. he nevertheless felt somewhat
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safe. quote, he felt even though he was not able to get the protection he asked for, he did feel relatively safe in germany. the man continued, quote, apparently he was not. well this week u.s. officials tell t"the wall street journal" that the u.s. intelligence believes the government of russia was behind this bicycle riding assassination in broad daylight in a park in central berlin three weeks ago today. quote, u.s. officials said on tuesday that russia was behind the murder of a former chechen rebel. the united states believes that russia is responsible for this assassination. one official said the suspect had recently come out of a russian prison after serving a murder sentence. upon his release he was given a bona fide russian passport which u.s. officials believed to be a cover. now that is, as i mentioned, one
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single source talking to the wall street journal about the suspect here, about him allegedly just coming out of russian prison, about him being a convicted murderer, about him having this bona fide russian passport issued but that does jive with investigative reporting that's being done in a collaborative effort by german and news organizations along with the investigative freelance outif i had which has a very interesting track record on these sorts of things. they tracked the attempted assassins after they were almost killed in the u.k. they played a key role in chasing that back to russian intelligence mill harry officers, what they have found in the berlin case is that the passport of the alleged killer
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who's in german custody, the passport he was carrying is a real russian passport but it has been issued in a fake name. the address listed for that passport holder is an address that physically doesn't exist in st. petersburg. there's also no record of anyone by that name in databases of russian passport holders. there's no trace of that person online or any known databases. as one u.s. official explains to the wall street journal, quote, a fake identity with a real passport can only be provided by authorities in russia. bellingcat and the insider also report in their investigation that just like with the attempted murder of sergei scripple, the passport of this alleged perpetrator is numbered in a way that links it to russian military intelligence.
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they were provided with sequentially numbered passports so you can trace them back to them in the event something like this that's crazy happens. this killing was three weeks ago today. german police picked this guy up within minutes of the killing thanks to the witnesses who saw him apparently allegedly both kill the guy and go into this crazy series of events and actions in which he tried to change his appearance and get away. they've released this picture of him. they don't believe they have a real name for him. they've released a picture of his bike that he allegedly committed the murder while riding and the scooter that he was allegedly going to use as his get away vehicle. russian consular has been visiting him. but, you know, you would expect them to say that. a source from german security
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agencies quoted a fine enough point on it. if it turns out that a state player like russia is behind this, we have a second skirpal case. when russia carried out that assassination in brittain, in salisbury, the u.k., it was only last year. it was a year and a half ago. it was march of 2018. and in the investigations that have happened since then the suspiciously fit, stern-faced, very well-organized supposed tourists that arrived in salisbury just before the killing and left salisbury right after, they turned out to be apparent whether i russian military officers. they apparently were carrying real passports. sergei skripal was an exkgb
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officer. he and his daughter barely survived this attack with novachok, which is a russian nerve agent. the attack did end up killing a bye stander and including another attempted russian assassination in brittain. over 100 russian diplomats were expelled from russian countries. that you might remember is what will apply the laugh till you cry and president trump was very upset and almost panicked when he learned that the u.s. was actually expelling more russian diplomats than others in response to the skripal's investigation. the trump administration had done the math wrong and they thought they were only expelling a sort of average number of russian diplomats. when they learned that they were accidentally kicking out a lot
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more russian diplomats than other countries were, a new round of tough u.s. sanctions against russia. the trump administration announced them but then didn't do it. they slow walked those sanctions for months. it was only after a round of critical reporting earlier this summer mate clear that although the trump administration had announced those sanctions as a result of the skripal work. it was almost a year and a half that the trump administration was finally shamed into implementing those sanctions, begrujdingly and belatedly. you know when they put those sanctions into effect? >> last month, august of 2019 after announcings them the spring of last year. russian parliament passioned a law in 2006 that nominally at
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least makes it legal for vladimir putin to order the murder of someone anywhere at any time. this is an ex-russian spy who was killed by them dropping radioactive material into his tea m a london hotel. and, you know, with those assassinations and others in brittain, but it's tempting. they have never feared what the international consequences might be of them tracking down people and murdering them. but often this new guy in berlin in broad daylight literally down the street from angela merkel's office, making sure he had a russian passport and trace it
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back when he was picking it up. this seems like they're not afraid, they're flaunting what they can do. i can do this in your house. you're not going to do anything about it. and what is incredible for us as americans, is that as that story about the berlin assassination has unfolded, strange and scary story out of berlin. we've also had this other story unfold and their own guy, own source inside the kremlin. the washington post in 2017, bob woodward's book "fear" and other news results all reported the existence of a force. it gave them key information about the russian government that they really couldn't have obtained any other way. key information about the russian attack on the 2016
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election, including specific documentation showing that putin had self had ordered it, signed off on it and that is not put continue specific information. so the fact that that source existed inside the russian government, inside the kremlin had been previously reported. but then apparently this week some sort of trip wire was tripped and in very big succession we got the reporting. not only did that source exist but he had been exfiltrated in part because of concerns that president trump might burn him, might identify him to the russians. we got "the new york times" reporting that this source had been providing valuable intelligence from inside the kremlin for decades which, of
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course, means losing him inside the kremlin would be a priceless loss for u.s. intelligence capabilities. we then in very quick succession got nbc news reporting. by monday night this week after that flurry of reporting that man had reportedly fled that house along with his family. by tuesday the russian government had published what they said was his name. russian news organizations immediately started denigrating him saying he definitely wasn't important. he wouldn't have had access to any important information. at the same time though perhaps belying that they were sort of interested in tracking him down, russian authorities did take steps to alert interpol as of yesterday that they want interpol, international assistance in tracking this guy down. and did i mention that u.s. intelligence says russia was behind an assassination this
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week in berlin in the capital city of berlin right next to angela merkel's office. i don't know why there was this flurry of reporting over the past four days that outed this unbelievably important source. i don't know why that all happened this week. we do know that the new attorney general, william barr, and the justice department's inspector general have been pursuing an investigation into the origins of the russia investigation and the sources of intelligence that u.s. intelligence agencies and the fbi used to make fisa warrants for the russia investigation. we know they've been trying to track down all the ways that this russia investigation started and who were the sources for the initial information that set the investigation off. is it possible that that's part
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of into the wind? we don't know. we don't know what the trip wire was that basically resulted in this flurry of him being reported. he is now in the way. he has now gone out of that address in virginia. nobody knows where he is. if he is at risk from russia coming for him, well, if you're u.s. intelligence, you're trying to protect him, how do you do that? how would you do it in normal times? how do you do it now? how much, for example, can you compartmentalize now and he's fled that house. do you have to tell the white house where he is. what if they ask? can you interrogate why they're asking. russia just killed a guy in central berlin. is it impossible that they would try to get this guy here, too. if it was impossible in the
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past, is it still impossible now? i have just the person to ask. you are going to want to meet our next guest. stay with us. wayfair's got your perfect mattress. whether you're looking for a top-brand at a great price. ready to upgrade. moving in.
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do you remember henry hill from goodfellas. the mobster who became an fbi informant famously, terrifyingly and hauntingly portrayed by ray leota. henry hill was a real person. he turned on his mafia bosses and then he ended up in witness protection for his own safety, which makes sense given what he had just done, right? in henry hill's case, as it generally does, it worked rather than being murdered by the mob. he ended up dieing of natural causes in 2012. the witness protection program is how you disappear after you're known to have helped in the prosecution of a dangerous criminal or criminals. it's run by the u.s. marshall service. it has a cousin run by the cia, it's called the national
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resettlement organization. they showed an organizational chart of the cia. at any given time it includes, i don't know, maybe 100 former spies for our country that need protection here. they get american citizenship. they are asked where they want to live. it's not fail proof. in one reported instance that told a dramatic story last year. quote, in one instance a suspected hitman arrived in florida and approached the home, a russian had who had been placed there. it raised concerns that the kremlin had authorized revenge on american soil. i know this is spy movie stuff?
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scary, dangerous and dark stuff attempting to protect people and to help the u.s. people have gathered in the law in order to help the united states, new york to help the u.s. intelligence community. well, the news this week from berlin that according to u.s. officials, it was the russian government that tracked them down but in germany in the capital city of germany just steps away from the office of the german chancellor. that news along with the outing of a man who is reported to be a former russian spy now living in the u.s. under american protection after he provided key information to u.s. intelligence for decades, including the key central information that led to the investigation. the confluence of those two
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stories, by of wish i have been raising the worry that russia might go after this u.s. intelligence source that's just been outed, maybe even here in the u.s. a former cia official who has worked on resettling defectors, who has been in charge of that, told the washington post this week, quote, putin is very revengeful. putin will go after these people. joining us now for the interview is joseph augustine. he's a 28-year-old veteran. i am super intimidated to meet you. >> nice to meet you. >> as i'm telling my layman's version of the spy stories if anything i've talked about over the last couple of seconds strikes you wrong. >> i think you've got it pretty much right. i'd like to start off by saying on this specific case i didn't know much about this case until
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i got a news break. that said, the defector operations center at cia brings in and resettles those people who get in trouble over seas, if you will, and we -- according to a little known law called public law 110 that goes back to 1949. united states government is to bring -- it has a ceiling, you very rarely or ever get to it. they have provided key information in defense of the united states and its security, okay? so we -- in the defector operations center where we have them for people, not life. the marshal's service has a protection program. people who stray from the
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program or do things that are not directed to do, they get kicked out of the program. >> i was looking that up. actually, he ended up out of the witness protection program right away and back into a life of crime and back in prison. >> exactly. we take people in. we have several hundred open cases in the united states of defectors now, we call them detectors, because they were in jeopardy or there was peril to the fact they might be exposed. >> how good is the u.s. and the cia in this case at protecting those people? what's the track record like? >> well, you know, it's very interesting. by the way, we bring in not only russians, right? we bring in the chinese, iranians, north koreans and we're responsible for their security for life, all right?
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and in terms of protecting them, we have a moral responsibility and i mean this sincerely. people who work for us in place for that long and take those kind of risks that they take, we want to assure that they are protected, that we take care of them and they live as good a life as they can for -- you know, for the rest of their lives. >> if that's -- that makes sense to me. the u.s. is making an implicit promise to people when they engage for them to spy for us. we will take care of you. we'll keep you alive as part of the deal. you have to be able to legitimately promise that. >> exactly. while i'm no longer in the agency, i can tell you at that i and others were worried about russian defectors because of putin. as i said, and you just quoted, putin is a very vengeful, revengeful individual.
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he'll put people on target lists. >> there's a rid line that putin will not cross. i believe he stratless it. this particular individual that was exfiltrated in 2017, i have no concern at this particular point in time that putin will come and get him now. what i worry about is a year from now, two years from now, five years from now he has a wife and three kids. he was resettled and -- in the defector operations center. i have to emphasize we respect our defect horse. i could see that this person arguing to keep his true name. it's very difficult for defectors when they come to the
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united states. let me explain it this way. i think it's an important point. most of these people had important positions back home. most of these people never told their spouse what they're doing. they didn't tell thir kads want schlitz. this particular guy, for example, as you said, worked in place for us for ten years. that's a long time to be a opportunity i'll have to use it, for us to screw up, which we never did. >> for us to finish up. so at this point -- at that point we decided frankly after some media things, connecting him, suggesting that he had an important position within putin's inner circle, that it was time for him to leave. >> time for him to disappear. he came to the united states, he had an important position there. he's now in the united states.
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we tell -- now his wife knows. he's here living a decent life. we're going to teach you english, right? i know you speak russian but we're going to teach you english. then we'll assimilate you. the job you had back in russia. this is a very important point. including your family. >> let me stop right here because i have another element. i have to take a quick break. joseph augustine is the former director of the cia's defector operations center. we'll be right back right after this. ight back right after this with this key to the city. [ applause ]
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for 28 years joseph augsutine was a member of the top cia clandestine services. that is the part of the cia that takes foreign assets who have helped u.s. intelligence and gets them secretly here. foreign assets akin to the russian spy who we just learned this week was exfiltrated from russia in 2017, relocated to the u.s. and this week mysteriously had his cover blown and he has now as of monday night this week all but disappeared.
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thank you for being with us. >> thank you. >> let me ask you about -- let's ask you about the sort of track record of the defector operations center in terms of keeping people safe. when you look at what russia has done, look at the skripal attempted assassination, the berlin case, it's being reported u.s. intelligence thinks it was a russian operation in the heart of berlin, do you feel like russia is getting more willing to do this in places where they otherwise wouldn't be expected? or is this kind of the way they've always been? >> i think in some ways both true because this is the way they've always been. i mean, you know, poisoning your people from the soviet union and russia goes back decades. the kgb actually had a department called poison department where they learned different and created different 'sons to assassinate people who disagreed with the regime. with putin, however, we have a former kgb officer, right, who
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knows this stuff and is -- and hates traitors more than anything in the world. what we say about putin is, you know, it's -- to be laughed at is worse for him than being feared. this is what's happened in this case. and that's why you see a lot of media attention to the fact that this defector that we think -- that we say and we know frankly was an incredibly important spy within the inner circle, putin now his propaganda machine is saying he was low level and he didn't do anything and, you know, that's spy talk because he's not going to admit that we just recruited within his own organization an incredibly important asset. so, you know, i'm worried again that we have to be -- we have to keep our vigilance intact because this man has become
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vulnerable. can we protect him? we can protect him and as i said, you know, right now i don't fear any -- i don't fear any retribution right now but a year from now, two years and what happens in a case like that is, you know, you get lazy. you get the security that you think you don't need and that's when putin -- that's when putin attacks. >> that's what we saw with skripal, presumably with this chechen guy. long memories. >> and we have these families, exactly, and we -- we don't want defectors in the united states. if we recruit someone over seas, we would rather have them work in place, provide the information that they can and when their exit ends, we want that to be. we don't want defectors but we have a moral obligation to bring them in when they're in trouble. your viewers who watch the americans.
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this is the americans in reverse. >> yeah. >> we have people here who weren't spying on us, they were spying for us. now they're living in our midst. >> joseph augustyn, thank you so much. >> thank you very much. >> really appreciate you being with us. more ahead. stay with us. award winning interface. ♪ ♪ award winning design. ♪ ♪ award winning engine. ♪ ♪ the volvo xc90. our most awarded luxury suv. ♪ ♪
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last couple of weeks have been field day -- a field day for reporters looking to dig into the intersection between the president's day job and his wallet. david farrenhold won a pulitzer prize for this. when the president recently suggested that the next g7 summit would be held at doral, his property in florida, and not just because doral is awesome but because the u.s. government vetted like a dozen places already and it turns out doral was definitely the best one and that's why it's going to be at doral. when the president tried that out a couple of weeks ago, well, that was an empirical statement about the behavior of the u.s.
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government. an empirical claim by the government. that's one that contested by reporters. viola, today reporter david farenhold is testing that in terms of whether the u.s. government actually did vet a dozen sites for the g7 and decide that doral was the best. he said on twitter he'd like help with that vetting. hours after he said that he said he has also already gotten some great tips on what the u.s. government did here since his first tweet. while that controversy continues to not just trail the president, it sort of blossoms as the president leans into this idea that he ought to make money off the presidency, he got some very bad news is our next guest. stay with us. stay with us ♪
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that one?! no! what about that?! no! what about now?! no! that do it?! [ buffer stops ] still not working! how 'bout now?! no! i just don't know. i mean, i don't know who labeled this thing. yeah?! no!
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office on a friday. by the next monday, by the first full working day in d.c. of the trump era, he was already being sued by ethics watch dogs. citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington also known as c.r.e.w., they filed suit in federal court in the southern district of new york alleging that by continuing to profit from his hotels and his restaurants in new york and d.c. while he was in office as president, trump was violating the emoluments clause of the constitution. remember when americans didn't even have to know that the
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emoluments clause of the constitution explicitly says the president can't profit from business dealings with foreign countries? remember those innocent days? when that was a totally irrelevant part of the constitution because presidents wouldn't even try such a thing? anyhoo, that case that was filed against the president on the first full work day of the president trump presidency, that was the first of several cases ultimately brought by a bunch of playoffs trying to keep the president from using the oval office as a convenient way to fwrieb leader of the free world. that first emoluments case has appeared to be dead in the courts since a district court. >> yes, sir refused it to go in 2017. today an appeals court brought it back to life, which means, well, don't take it from me. our next guest tonight is deepak group at a, the lawyer representing the plaintiffs in this lawsuit against the presidential.
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mr. gupta, it's great to have you with us tonight. >> thanks for having me. >> i understand the basic charge here that the president's not supposed to use his public position to get rich and the constitution says in particular he can't take money from other governments while he's getting paid to be president. >> exactly. >> is there more specificity in terms of the way your case works that we need to understand in terms of how it's going to move in the courts. >> sure. you mentioned there were several cases brought. there were three cases brought, one by members of congress, one by the district of columbia and maryland, and i also represent them, and the third case was one there was a decision in today, that's the case which much we represent hotel and restaurant industry competitors of president trump's businesses. we always thought this was a really straightforward theory here. these are people that are directly competing with trump's businesses in the market. every dollar that goes from their businesses to trump's businesses that would have gone to them because of foreign
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delegation, for example, from the united nations, that's exactly what the federal court of appeals in new york, which is the level right before the u.s. supreme court. this is the first appellate decision in these emoluments cause cases to allow the litigation to go forward. >> in terms of the president's sort of brazenness on this issue while these court cases have been meandering through the court system with more or less success and as you say, yours is the first one to get a favorable appellate decision, seems like the president at a public level has become much more blatant and brazen about the idea that he ought to profit from his public office and that foreign governments ought to pay him if they want to do business with the u.s. government, including, for example, for the privilege of coming to the g-7 conference. >> yeah. >> are those kinds of proposals
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from the president directly implicated by this case that you have brought? >> they are, yes. we've been hearing news lately about these air force stopovers in scotland. that is money that's going from the federal treasury, from the u.s. military budget, to the president's businesses. that is direct violation of the domestic emoluments clause of the constitution, which says that the president is only supposed to get a salary for doing his job. that's all we're going to pay him. the federal government doesn't pay him anything more, and that's a violation of the constitution. every time you have foreign delegations staying at his businesses where, for example, you mentioned the doral, the summit that he wants to have at doral if he's effectively forcing foreign governments to spend money there, that would be a direct violation of the foreign emoluments clause. you're right, rachel, we've seen him be a lot more brazen about this. you remember before he was -- before he took office, he had a press conference where he hired a lawyer and they tried to say
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there's not going to be a violation of the clause. they were worry about this. they were concerned. as we've had seen with a lot of things with president trump, as the norms get shattered, he becomes more and more brazen about these norms. and i think that's why it is so essential to enforce these norms. i know it's frustrating because the court system, the legal system, these things take time but talks to matters. it matters to be able to say, look, we held him to account. these constitutional norms didn't just go by the wayside. they set precedent and we're not going to law this to happen again. >> deepak gupta, thank you so much for your time tonight. congratulations on your success today. keep us apprised. >> thank you so much for having me. i should tell you that lawrence o'donnell is going to have more on this story tonight. he'll be talking to the head of c.r.e.w., which is the group bringing that lawsuit we were just talking about. we'll be right back. stay with us. stay with us as soon as the homeowners arrive, we'll inform them that liberty mutual
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tonight. there's one story you should watch for developments in over the weekend. one of the things we've been talking about on this show is the potential that there might be a -- the opioids version of what was the multibillion dollar tobacco settlement, purdue pharma is trying to pursue that settlement. bomb she will story tonight in "the new york times" which says the subpoena has turned up more than a billion dollars to entities controlled by the sack ler family that owns purdue pharma. there are allegations now that that family may have essentially rated purdue pharma to take all the money all of that company, to leave no money for victims, less money for victims as they approach the settlement talks. those are red-hot allegations