tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC September 30, 2019 4:00pm-5:00pm PDT
also, my interview with john kiriakou, a former cia whistle-blower and quite relevant thinking how this story evolves from here. that does it for us now. right now it's "hardball with chris matthews." all the president's money. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. we have breaking news tonight on impeachment. "the wall street journal" is now rrting secretary of state mike pompeo was among the trump officials listening in on that july phone call when the president pushed ukrainian president zelensky to dig up dirt on joe biden. that's according to sign yor state department official. though nbc news has not spoken to the official cited in the
story, even though pompeo had firsthand knowledge what was said on that call, as we now learned, he was evasive when asked about that conversation just a week ago. >> "the wall street journal" is reporting that president trump pressed the president of ukraine eight times to work with rudy giuliani to investigate joe biden's son. what do you know about those conversations? >> so you just gave me a report about an ic, none of which i have seen. >> he was listening in, so secretary of state knew it all from the git-go about president trump holding up an arms deal to a desperate ukraine, about trump asking dirt on joe biden, trump tying one to the other, arms to fight russian tanks, dirt for him to fight joe biden. additionally, three house committees today subpoenaed the president's lawyer, rudy giuliani, for documents relating to the trump uk scandal including text messages and
other communications, and they showed he acted in concert with administration officials. meanwhile president trump's fury over impeachment is bordering on hysteria. since saturday trump issued over 75 tweets, there they are, attacking the whistle-blower and democrats and he appeared to threaten civil war if he's impeached. earlier this afternoon trump again defended his phone call with the ukrainian president saying he's trying to find out who the whistle-blower is. >> mr. president, do you now know who the whistle-blower is, sir? >> we're trying to find out about a whistle-blower. we have a whistle-blower that reports things that are incorrect. as you know and probably have now figured out, the statement made to the president of ukraine, a good man, nice man, knew, was was perfect. it was perfect. but the whistle-blower reported a totally different statement, like the statement which was not even made. the call was perfect. when the whistle-blower reported it, he made it sound terrible.
>> he's out of the argument the problem with what the president just said, his own white house's summary of the call confirms the whistle-blower's account. it's not about the whistle part anymore, mr. president. he blew or whistle or she blew the whistle, but we now know what was said in the call according to the white house. the inspector general said in the statement today other information obtained in his preliminary review supported the whistle-blower's allegations. this comes as a lawyer for the whistle-blower said he believes the president's attacks are putting his client's safety in danger. another potentially big development this week house intelligence chair adam schiff said we will hear from the whistle-blower very soon. what's not yet clear is how he or she will testify while maintaining am anymorety. i'm joined now by nbc news correspondent carol lee. glenn kirschner, former federal prosecutor. eugene robertson, columnist for "the washington post" and editor and chief of the board.
charlie, this development we now know pompeo was listening in on the call, what consequences, implications does that bring? >> i think to a certain extent while this may be shocking, it shouldn't be surprising. here is a president who thinks of the federal government as an exception of himself and his own personal interests, which is would also explain why he would get the attorney general involved, get the secretary of state involved. i think we're starting to see the scope of the president's obsession with using his office to develop dirt on his political opponents and discredit the mueller investigation. i'm guessing we're only beginning to see just some aspects of all of this. and in the next couple of days, i think today will be very typical of what we will see, you will start to see a great unraveling of all of this. basically everyone around this president is being drawn in as an accomplice to the president's abuse of power. >> here's the question if you're pompeo, you know know you have
been nailed, as someone who knew about this from the git-go, conditioning u.s. military aid, the fact of the dirt he wants to get on his opponent, potential opponent, and he would never tell anybody. was he part of carrying this phone conversation, word-by-word transcript hiding in a way in so some subterranean garage where they hide these things? or he didn't tell us whaps happening. >> clearly when he was on that call as your interview showed, he knew a lot more than he was letting on, obviously. >> why was he listening and then denying he was listening in? >> he's been one of the president's staunchest deafers, a. and b, hes had his own political ambitions and he doesn't want to be tied in as walking the balance as one of president trump's biggest defenders, national security adviser official who's been in his
services -- >> you think even kansas will buy this guy is a stooge? it starts with the president. >> ambitions for '24, presidential ambitions. >> it used to be said he was the second-most ambitious politician in kansas and miss pompeo was the most ambitious politician in kansas. i think he does think of himself for 2024. but i think this is a fascinating window in addition to the fact pompeo was totally dishonest with everyone on this. you know, an omission but he was totally dishonest. it's a fascinating glimpse into what one has to put up with and endure to work for president trump and stay in his good graces. pompeo managed to stay in his good graces, he's risen in the ire arcy to become secretary of state. and he i think has done that by
putting up with a lot of unsavory doings by the president. >> that's what he's saying about living in boston, either you're in with theself, the whole religious aspect of the baseball team, or you don't belong there. country fake it. it seems like if you're in this white house, you have to be completely in on the skulduggery. we're here to screw joe biden if he's the front-runner and we will then screw elizabeth warren if she's the front-runner but that's what we're here for. >> it's even worse than an omission. here's why. we have pompeo not only listening in, perhaps not only participating and burying it in the secret server, then we have him standing up and making comments to the u.n. general assembly about the whistle-blower. you know what he says? he tries to undercut the whistle-blower's credibility by saying, you know, the whistle-blower, that's just secondhand information. guess what, yes, sport, you had firsthand information! you were on the call. that's worse than omission. i'm going out on a limb to say
mike pompeo lacks candor. >> i think there's a character issue here. >> in terms of whether how people stay in the president's good graces, one person who doesn't stay in the president's good graces was john bolton, former u.n. national security adviser and we're reporting today he didn't want the president to make this call because he was concerned he would not coordinate -- >> lean towards russia. >> he would air personal grievances, so to speak. >> one thing we should point out about pompeo, one thing he's not stupid, he's harvard law, he's a very intelligent man. he knew what was going on. he knew exactly what he was saying and why he was saying it. >> look at that picture smiling together. on saturday giuliani said he was acting in behest of the state department when he tried to get dirt via ukraine and secretary of state pompeo was aware. i don't know if i believed it then, but i believe it now. >> we're acting at the behest of the state department and now
seblts pompeo is being subpoenaed to testify -- >> he shouldn't. his staff didn't do a darn thing wrong. >> and kurt volker set up this meeting -- >> i assume the secretary knew and when i spoke to the secretary afterwards, he said he had some knowledge of it. >> minutes ago giuliani responded to the subpoena he was served today by the house intelligence committee saying, i have received a subpoena signed only by democrat chairs who have prejudged this case. it raises significant issues concerning legitimacy and constitutional and legal issues, including inter-allah, love the legal language there, and attorney/client privileges. it will be given appropriate consideration. excuse me, charlie, i never heard of a guy saying this subpoena has the wrong signature on it, a democrat's name on it. i thought the subpoena from a chair of an investigative committee, especially now that they're under an inquiry for impeachment, should be honored, not dismissed. >> yes, but expect more of this. this has been the white house strategy to stonewall, claim
privileges, snow-walk this as much as possible. they understand the longer they can drag this out, the more messy they can make this. but i think the democrats are showing they understand they need to be quickly on all of this. when rudy giuliani held up his phone on cnn and said, look, all of the emails are there, he basically invited the world to see. >> joe mccarthy did that once. >> yes. it didn't work out well for him. >> he didn't actually have next. here's my question strategically on the democrats' side, are necessity better off refusing to honor the subpoenas, because if they don't honor them, it's all part of the obstruction, fits a pattern. if they show up and according to lewandowski, we have the republican auxiliary asking stupid questions about biden, maybe that doesn't work so well. >> we don't want to see giuliani beclown himself the way
lewandowski. but i think he was smart to subpoena these documents. rudy giuliani the statements he so proudly held up his cell phone to show us he had, one, they're not covered by attorney/client priv age. only communication with the president is covered. even if he put the president told me x, y, and z, he dievivud it. he also won't enjoy executive privilege. there's only one privilege left, and the daddy of all privileges, fifth amendment of privilege and he better brush up on that one. >> the other thing if you talk to people around the president, no matter who you talk to, everyone seems to agree giuliani is the problem. >> is he? do you think that? >> if you're a republican on the hill, you want him to stop talking. he's creating more problems than solving. if he's mike pompeo, you don't want him to say he's checking everything out with the state
department f you're bill barr, you don't want to be linked to him. >> this is for the head? >> if you're donald trump, you love it. >> oh, yeah. meanwhile some of the president's allies appeared on tv trying and failing to defend trump's conduct. among them white house policy adviser -- piece of work -- stephen miller who argued the president is the real whistle-blower. . >> the president is the whistle-blower here. the president of the united states is the whistle-blower. and this individual is a saboteur trying to undermine a democratically elected problem. >> saboteur, is he a spy? is he committing treason? >> i do not know -- >> the president said that. >> the president correctly pointed out that the behavior of this individual is close to a spy. >> separately the highest-ranking republican in the house, minority leader kevin mccarthy -- this is amazing -- appeared out of his depth, that's the way he pit it in an interview with "60 minutes" struggling to grept r grasp what
he said to the ukrainian president. catch this sugar plum. >> what do you make of this exchange, president zelensky said we're almost ready to buy more javelins from the united states for defense purposes and president trump applies, i would like us to do us a favor though. >> he juyou just added another >> no. >> can i do you a favor? >> it's in the transcript. >> we spent a week last week, i'm not sure if these characters watch our network and it's fine if they don't but we talked about that word all week, though, that's what a condition is. i would like to do you a favor though -- and this guy never heard the sentence we've been arguing about all week. your thoughts. >> you have the top republican in the house of representatives beclowning himself on the first weekend defending the president. this was an embarrassment really throughout the day. a lot of other republicans need
to look at this and go if this is the best we've got, am i going to be the next guy? am i going to be the next kevin mccarthy or jim jordan? i think the tell was how weak their defenses were. they're looking for a narrative but the fact is we know what the narrative is. it's not hearsay. the president has acknowledged it. we have this quasi transcript. a lot of what happened with ukraine took place in plain sight. yes, there was an attempted cover-up but it's one of the least effective cover-ups in history. so what they're left with is throw stuff up against the wall, try to attack and intimidate and discredit the whistle-blower but i think the weakness of the trump defense was really on display yesterday. >> let's, carol, start with the safety of the whistle-blower. it isn't exactly a mob situation but it's a little scary. this guy is under tremendous threat. he will be seen as archenemy to everybody on the hard right, trump right, because it is an ideology. how do you protect this person once his face or her face
appears on the cameras or becomes more recognized? the rest of their life, witness protection? what are we talking about here? >> it's i huge risk, not only that. but not only that the president and his allies are creating this chilling effect. who's going to want to come forward after seeing something like this? and it's a huge -- >> good point. >> and it's a huge problem. >> this is aimed not at the whistle-blower, but the whistle-blower sources. >> and they're the people in the white house who are terrified. >> all of this ammunition is aimed at them. >> isn't it a little late though? he or she knows who those sources are. by the way, this was beautifully written reportage. i thought it was put together tight as a drum. this isn't a letter to the editor. this is serious business. >> this one isn't funny. it's called the whistle-blower protection act. not the whistle-blower destruction act. as a career federal prosecutor, i had so many witnesses at risk. when that happened, the united states marshal service swooped in, they're the ones who
administer our federal witness protection program -- >> how do you protect this person? >> you put him or her in the federal witness protection program. i'm sorry to say because you have the most reckless things said by the president and by the stephen millers of the world, i'm telling you f. i were prosecuting a case and had a witness treated the way this whistle-blower was treated, i would look to lock up the people who were communicating threats against the whistle-blower. >> because this person is going to be identified at some point and we'll have to deal with this fact. we already know cia agent. we know a lot. posts the white house, all public information and i'm sure trump is spending every hour trying to figure out who it is. carol, thank you as always, jean robinson, charlie sykes. coming up -- president trump goes to the dark place. the talk of civil war and treason. by the way, civil war is not just some concept in any country. it has an american linage. civil war, right versus left. south versus north. the issue of slavery. this is going to be -- he wants to reopen that san andreas fault
in our history. that's what he's talking about, to save his skin. his strategy is very clear, relentle relentlessly attack the credibility of the au.s. cooer and survive a senate trial. all he needs is a third of the country plus one. that's what he's working on now, the old nixon strategy, survival. >> plus one showed little public support for impeachment and that's all changed. we will talk to senator presidential candidate and former prosecutor amy klobuchar. she's coming here. we have much more to get to. stay with us. and home to three bp wind farms. in the off-chance the wind ever stops blowing here... the lights can keep on shining. thanks to our natural gas. a smart partner to renewable energy. it's always ready when needed. or... not. at bp, we see possibilities everywhere.
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with him. you hear that? if he's going down, he's taking this country with him. earlier this morning the president fired up ten tweets about the investigation, calling it a witch-hunt, of course. referring to it aa fake whistle-blower involved. and those came over the punitive inquiry itself, democrats' motives and threats against the whistle-blower again. on saturday he signaled, do-nothing savages like madder in, schiff, aoc plus three and many more. by sunday evening returned to the whistle-blower saying, i deserve to meet my accuser, accusing house intelligence committee adam schiff of fraud and treesason and warning of bi consequences. he capped this weekend's spree including a fox guest, evangelical's preacher warning of dire consequences, quote, if the democrats are successful removing the president from office, which they will never do -- that's trump -- it will cause a civil war-like fracture in this nation from which our
country will never heal. i'm joined by former democratic congresswoman donna edwards from maryland, contributing columnist for "the washington post" and columnist at "the new york times," andrew, welcome back from cape cod. it's awful down here. what is the president talking about with the civil war if he continues this fight? >> let me take a few steps back and say if you knew in your friend, family, relative or boss who was tweeting this kind of stuff all day long, would you seek help for that person. this is so out of the mainstream, so out of the mental normal spectrum of intelligence psychologically adjusted people. we have someone who is deeply, psychologically unwell in this white house. he's currently in a state of decompensation for his narcissism. he's going to lash out at everyone and seek revenge and he's lost because he doesn't have a defense. because he's admitted it. >> that's rational. i think he has a problem. >> he does have a problem. he's unable to cope with it.
he's panicking. he has to lash out. he has to go his ter cal the closer we get, the more hysterical he will get. he would rather take hold of anything kons can stugsal threat rather than give up power. >> in the short term, i agree with it too. i think what's happened here is the president is being painted into a box and being painted into that box by his own words, ten words, i would like you -- >> do me a favor though. >> you to do me a favor though. it's funny, some people don't know the words yet. choke on that. >> it's clear the more he gets painted into that bofrm, the greater danger he is to the rest of us because he says things completely unhinged, very dangerous. it's amazing republicans aren't coming out and seeing this. >> let's try this, maybe this summer he saw biden's numbers go
up. but his are going down and elizabeth warren's going up. we know that. but down the road he sees himself losing to mr. good guy joe biden, mr. rogers almost, regular guy. he says, i'm scared. i'm so desperate, i'm going to call a foreign leader and ask for some dirt and actually hold up arm shipments to fight the russians to save my keister. and in the act of doing the most desperate act, gets caught doing the most desperate act. anyway, illinois republican congressman adam kinsinger blasted the republican for quoting the texas pastor saying on civil war there would be a civil war-like fracture if trump were impeached. kissinger, air force veteran of iraq and afghanistan wrote, i have visited nations ravaged by civil war. i never imagined such a quote to be repeated by a president. thes beyond renug nant. meanwhile former democratic senator jeff flake of arizona urged his colleagues to put principles over politics in 2020. fellow republicans, there's still time to save your souls.
flake argued it's time to risk your careers and favors for principles. you know the president does not deserve re-election. these guys, they're only honest when they're gone. >> the to do if republicans said these thing when's they were in office and had flexibility. but things to me that are clear by the information is trump deep down doesn't think he did anything wrong. he never understood his role. he doesn't understand the rule of law. he thinks the law is what can i get away with? tillson told us everything he was asking to do was a crime. this man -- i watched "goode fellas" last night because i wanted brush up a little bit on how these people think. he's never distinguished himself and his own interests from the presidency itself. he doesn't have any responsibility for the country. he's already bankrupt, trillion dollar debt, he doesn't care. run the presses.
this is the man going out flailing. i think he will leave this office, i do not think he will leave this office voluntarily. i just don't. >> donna? >> you know, if you look at it, the president thought that the memo that was released was going to be exculpatory. it would somehow exonerate him. of course it did not. i think the closer this president gets to the line, we're going to see all kind of crazy. and i think democrats really have to be prepared to take that hard vote, they already narrowed the focus of their investigation, which i think is really important for them, and they have to be prepared to move this man out of office. >> his psyche needs this not to happen. >> the scariest news we had the last hour, it's not just him and rudy that can obviously go off in their own crazy direction as a duo but pompeo's in on this. >> all the president's men. >> a matter of state. if you're a foreign leader
you're watching the news, wire ticker, whatever it is, my god, is mnuchin all in on this too? is this the united states government? not just trump. >> the united states government ceases to exist. we have trump. we have a monarchy of sorts, using the apparatus of the federal government in a way that was never meant to be. every bit of the country is working for trump and pompeo, they're working together. >> we're going to find out. i think there are more tentacles here than we can even begin to grab hold of because everybody that president trump touches turns to dirt and it's happening in this government. >> in my part of my brain says -- i'm not a lawyer, i say it all the time -- part of me say i hope they stand up with these subpoenas and get held for contempt. the way they brought mccarthy down wasn't how he treated witnesses but the senate when they come at him. in the end it's your basicic behavior when you're under target, you are challenged and indicted in an impeachment process, it's how you behave
then that says who you really are. he may say screw you and get him out of there. >> this narcissist, complain cal condition, cannot handle if some exterior force is revealing and making him face reality. we will get extremely irrational stuff from this man. who knows what he can do. >> i think in the white house they're scared. >> i think we will get more people inside the white house who will be willing to step forward because they do not want to go down for this man. >> sir, i'm glad you're back healthy and, done, as always, you're becoming a star here. you know that. you're a great writer. that's the key, if you can't write, you can't think. >> i agree with that. >> somebody once said that. it's a brutal statement but it's true. up next -- an affront the on impeachment especially since trump is attacking the whistle-blower, predicting a second u.s. civil war if he's removed from office. where in the public is this? the silence is deafening. you're watching "hardball."
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senator, what does happen in the senate if the house does get through with its inquiry and decide they are going to impeach president trump? >> well, under the senate rules, we're required to take it up if the house does go down that path, and we'll follow the senate rules. it's a senate rule related to impeachment, it would take 67 votes to change. so i would have no choice but to
take it up. how long you're on it is a whole different matter. but if would have no choice but to take it up. based on a senate rule on impeachment. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was, of course, republican leader mitch mcconnell telling cnbc today that according to senate rules, woe have to move forward on impeachment if the house impeaches president trump. just referring to the senate rule, upon such articles being presented to the senate, the senate shall proceed to the consideration of such articles. but the senator add an important caveat saying how long you're on it is a whole different matter. and it's easy to imagine mitch mcconnell moving quickly to a vote. i'm here with senator and presidential candidate, of course, amy klobuchar, who sits on the panel or juror of the impeachment trial. thank you for being here. >> thank you.
>> let's start with what's the latitude in the house -- looks like the house will get a majority, i'm speculating but i think they will, because of so many democrats that have come out for this process and the way it's moving. if it comes to the senate, do you see any wig many room on the part of mitch? >> you heard that wiggle room right there, chris. i'm actually the ranking on the rules committee so i listen very carefully whent about how long stay on it. which is interesting because way back in the spring, he actually used the word trial. that's a big difference. if we actually have a trial, which is one thing, which is what we should do. and i actually took part in the last impeachment case in the senate, which was a federal judge in louisiana. we had a trial that lasted over a week. we brought the evidence to the senate. there were 15 of us, and we actually had a trial. the prosecutor, by the way, from over in the house was adam schiff. we ended up -- yes. we ended up impeaching the judge. so the point of the story is
that i'm concerned that he wouldn't allow that full trial to go forward. now, what will make a difference here, and that is what speaker pelosi has been talking about, to keep this focus, as donna just noted, keep this focus on what happened here and that is a president called a foreign leader and asked him to get dirt on one of his political opponents. and there's new reports today that that actually, the same thing may have happened with the australian prime minister and there may be recordings or reports from that call. and so i see this as a global watergate, where this is a president that was, as you said, desperate. he's trying to get dirt and then when they get caught, there's a cover-up. they didn't have file cabinets like they did in watergate but now they're using a super secret server and putting the calls over there so they think no one will see them. but they did and learned about it because of the
whistle-blower. we have to keep this focused on the facts. i believe if more witnesses come forward, and there are people who worked in that white house that despise this president because of his lack of patriotism, and if they start coming forward with corroborating evidence, that will make all of the difference. that will determine the case, how strong it is, what mitch mcconnell will do and the public opinion will matter as speaker pelosi has rightfully noted, and then our republican colleagues are really on the hot seat. they've got to decide if they will put their country first or partisanship first. they talked a good game on security. let's see it happen. >> you mentioned nbc news has confirmed president trump sought help from the australian, prime minister to investigate the origins of former special counsel robert mueller amueller investigation. he said attorney general barr asked trump to make the call to seek australia's help. the call was first reported by
"the new york times." additionally "the washington post" reports late tonight that barr held private meetings kwloefr seas with foreign officials seeking their help in a inquiry that president trump hopes will discredit u.s. intelligence agencies examination of russian interference. somebody said the other day, this is a white whale. it's like captain ahab. he's obsessed, this president, with trying to somehow erase the record of russian interference and the is russian role in helping him become president. it's like he's taking the state department, every foreign leader on the phone with him or pompeo now gets grilled into saying, come on, we need help with dirt collection because we have to go back and erase history, that the russians had something to do with putting our guy in there. your thoughts. >> this actually goes back to a meeting in a bar in london where popolopodus, remember that name, met with an australian diplomat and the australian diplomat was
concerned enough that he reported this line that popolopodus, on behalf of the trump campaign, was looking for dirt on secretary clinton. so that is his obsession, where it came from. but i think we've got to go back from that mueller investigation because our focus right now, again, is what he is doing now and not everything from the past, chris, as much as alluring as it is to connect all of these dots and i'm sure we can at some point, but it's on the actions in the document. this idea he betrayed his country and put, as usual, business, personal and partisan interests first. and we have to keep it that simple. yes, you get the corroborating evidence and ghis is mguess is may involve calls to other leaders of foreign countries but you have to keep it on this current, focus on this investigation. i think that's what makes a difference for any of my colleagues and former senator flake made that point.
it's a clarion call to them. this is not something that was a past election. this is something that is happening right now. if they want a touchstone for themselves, james madison, constitutional convention. when they were talking about the articles of impeachment, he argued for them at the convention with the argument that a president might, in his words, betray the trust of our country to a foreign power. this is exactly what they were worried about. and this is exactly what is happening. >> quick question, if you get the impeachment from the house by thanksgiving, can you finish the matter before the end of the year? >> i think we can. i think it is very important that we move forward, and i will note that somebody who's running for president, we can do two things at once. we can focus on making sure we have a rule of law in place and that we don't have a president that's flaunting it and is not held to the highest standards, and at the same time push for an optimistic economic agenda for
this country because this president isn't doing it. he's spending his morning, instead of working on the cost of prescription drugs or helping build infrastructure or working on the disaster going on with our farmers in the midwest, including iowa, because of his oil waivers and trade war, instead of working on that, he's out tweeting about presidential harassment in all caps and spending his time doing these crazy tweets all morning. this is not what you want in a leader. >> senator, you don't have to tell me. you can do more than two things at the same time. you're so gung-ho. you're not worn out by this campaign, you're energized by it. >> it is the last day of the quarter, chris. important day. so thank you very much. >> that has to do with running for president, yes, i know, thank you, senator amy klobuchar from minnesota, candidate for president. still ahead on "hardball," interesting new polling just shows a big shift in the public's view of impeachment. guess what, they're for it. the bus has left the station, mr. president. that's next on "hardball." ) ♪
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welcome back to "hardball." it's been a week now, roughly a week, since the news of an anonymous whistle-blower's complaint sparked the impeachment inquiry. since that time several new polls show a shift in public opinion in favor of impeachment. according to a cbs/yougov poll, 55% of americans believe impeachment of trump is necessary, 55%. meanwhile a brand-new quinnipiac poll shows the country is split whether or not the president should be impeached and removed from office now. look, it's already even. they didn't even have the trial yet or vote in the house and it's 47% to get rid of the guy. 47% support the impeachment and removal of president trump while 47 are opposed to that, as if it's already over. that represents a 20-point swing in favor of impeachment since six days ago when quinnipiac
previously asks the question. in six days it went from 37 to 47 to get rid of the president right now. soirss say the president is paying close attention to the polls, as he would. two sources with direct knowledge tell nbc president trump told allies days ago he would start worrying about losing republican support if national polls went up 50% of americans supporting impeachment. well, they have. meanwhile president trump is doing everything they can trying to combat the march to impeachment. and that's next. you're watching "hardball." "har. when you're under pressure to get the job done, it seems you have to accept the fact that some equipment will sit idle, or underutilized. but it doesn't have to be that way. that's why united rentals is combining equipment, data, safety and expertise to help your worksite perform better. united rentals. a better worksite is here. was in an accident. when i called usaa, it was that voice asking me,
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welcome back to "hardball." president trump ands a hill lies spent the weekend charging that a coup d'etat is under way, escalating his attacks, he calls the democrats coming after him savages, and threatened his enemies with prison n an interview with "60 minutes" last night, speaker of the house nancy pelosi had a different message for the is white house. >> speak of the truth, honor your oath of office to the constitution of the united states. speak the truth and let us work together to have this big, unifying experience, not a dividing one for our country. don't make this any worse than it already is. >> yesterday during a call with her caucus, speaker pelosi tried to highlight the sober nature of this moment. according to multiple sources on that call, the caucus chair hakeem jeffries, also urged democrats to stick to a simple message when talking about impeachment.
here's the words he wants, betrayal, abuse of power and national security. for more, i'm joined by susan page, "usa today" washington bureau chief and, of course, ginger gibson, political correspondent for reuters. you know i belong to no organized political party, i'm a democrat. but it seems to be not true right now, they seem to be organized. >> they are somewhat on message and trying to carve that message. i talked to a number of moderate house numbers, some who live in very difficult districts, last week. and they were on page. they felt their leadership was giving them direction. a source familiar with that call told me today that the pelosi call, the dccc, their campaign arm, is also telling them to understand what the local voters want and need and want to hear and what their concerns are. they offered to help pay for the polling in these local districts and telling their members to go
out and have conversations with their constituents, hear what they're saying and know what they are saying. >> isn't it time to more than deliver a message. the message is this president traded his public position of being united states commander in chief, looking ott for our allies in terms of military defense, for chief political information to use against enemies. >> there's one unifying message, nancy pelosi has taken charge of this. before that she was trying to hold back on impeachment. you had jer nadler trying to push forward. >> you mean the corey lewandowski hearing wasn't successful. >> not successful. >> that was the nader. >> now nancy pelosi is running this, she has an ally, schiff, taking the lead. she needs to find a focus threatening ukraine and doesn't take in every other grievance the democrats have against the president. >> how does a party, like this weekend, who did all of these things to get ahead of the ban, 0 confiscate all of the ar-15s
or whatever, he said the guy ought to resign. do you think that helps? is that on message, the president should resign right now? >> i don't think the president is going to listen to him by any means. >> does it hurt democratic coherence? >> i don't think it hurts democratic coherencen hearing beto say resign. if ask you any candidate running, necessity l say he should step aside and let them become president. i think the candidates are in a little bit of a tougher position trying to figure out what to do with this whole thing, how to talk about biden in this conversation. let's be year, talking about no organization, pelosi has always been the best whip i like to say -- >> she's great. >> -- since lbj of a caucus. >> agreed. >> at her own interest, can i have her message and if they were all ceo end zone, they would do the same. >> i saw you during the break, i was thinking about the kelly
classic in pennsylvania this fabulous weekend and they show you the border collies, these little dogs and hurry the sheep in a way that's fantastic. they cut them this way, that way and put them in the coral. i think that's what the democratic party needs. >> that's nancy pelosi, a border collie shepherding them around. the reason she's such a good counter is because she knows her members so well. they understand she knows them. and that doesn't mean they will always follow her everywhere but it builds a sense of k6d in her that is going to be important. and i actually think the fact now has a clear direction is likely to vote for impeachment by thanksgiving. >> i think so. what about pompeo? we thought it was sort of like a freelance operation by trump and his people, then you find the united states government, it's a matter of state. the secretary of state was listening to that phone call. >> i think what is what susan talked about very narrow focus, this is going to be a challenge for house democrats figuring out what do you do about giuliani?
what did you do about pompeo? do you bring them in to testify? >> do you want them in? wouldn't you rather they just -- just hold them in contempt? once they get in there the right wing crowd on the republican side will spend half the time on the hearings doing the crazy stuff they did with lewandowski. you want that? >> i can't imagine anybody would want to put giuliani on a witness table at a house hearing. >> i would like that. >> you would like it. who would be better off having these guys show up? >> that's a tough one. i think it would come down to the big, explicit moment of whodunit? and that's a roll of the dice. >> look at this we have the attorney generaling secretary of state implicated in this huge, unfolding scandal. when was the last time the major figures in our government -- >> i used the phrase all of the president's men in the beginning. i think we know when it was, richard milhous nixon. thank you, ginger, who knows these things. up next, it's time for the
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it hasn't been a merger of the party, it's acquisition pure and simple. trump owns the republican party lock, stom and barrel. the party of free trade isn't anymore. the party of fiscal responsibility isn't anymore. the party of teddy roosevelt and conservation isn't anymore. the pasht of honest abe, forget it. the part of national security, now there's a question for the week, that one. the first test of trump's political character came three years ago with the release of the "access hollywood" tape. it shocked the running mate and republican party but they stayed. they heard it and they stayed. now they're still abhorred over another conversation with the president of ukraine, instead of holding up women, aid to a political rival unless they dish durt on a political rival of his. some say he could shoot people on fifth avenue and people would stick with him. what about republican members of congress? i think it could be said if the republican party stands up in
the next few weeks against donald trump, it will not be the case of the party departing from him but rather him departing from a party he never bothered to join on any republican principle you can cite. that's "hardball" for now. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> mr. president, on rudy giuliani, why do you think it's appropriate for your personal attorney to get involved in government business? >> well, you'd have to ask rudy. >> democrats subpoena the president's lawyer. >> shut up! >> new reports that mike pompeo was listening in on the phone call with ukraine. >> i'll -- the white house will have to explain. >> and new reporting that the president asked australia's prime minister to help investigate the origin of the mueller probe. >> australia is a fantastic country. >> tonight as the scandal grows, the trump defense flails. >> and president trump replies, i would like us to do you a favor though.