good afternoon to you. i'm richard lui live in msnbc headquarters live in new york city. we've got a lot to get to this hour. another big week ahead, as you probably know on capitol hill. it's day 75 of the impeachment inquiry. we're following lots of fast moving developments just today. the house judiciary committee working through the weekend and reportedly on the articles of impeachment ahead of monday's big hearing themself.

i'll talk to members of congress in just a moment about what they're expecting this week and whether they've seen enough to vote for impeachment. plus, breaking news we're following in benz cola, florida, where three people are dead following a shooting at a naval air base. we're learning new details about that incident and the shooter today. an american student is released from iran in a rare prisoner swap with the united states. that out today. on the campaign trail the gloves are coming off. elizabeth warren and joe biden as they go on the attack. more on that coming up. we'll start with three new developments just out today as work on impeachment continues right now on capitol hill as i was mentioning. monday is the focus for them, another big day in the impeachment inquiry. for the judiciary committee hearings happening that very day, monday. today, we just got a 55-page document that lays out how impeachment will be defined in the hearings. it's an update from the only other report that was done like

this during the nixon era. also today, we just learned the afternoon the names of the lawyers who will be presenting their cases monday. for the democratic majority, barry berke will appear on behalf of the you kish f dishry committee. on the republican side stephen castor will present the case for the republican minority. the third thing that just happened today, moments ago as the president prepared to leave for florida, he said this. >> rudy, as you know, has been one of the great crime fighters of the last 50 years. and he did get back from europe just recently and he has not told me what he's found. but i think he wants to go before congress and say -- and also to the attorney general and the department of justice. i hear he's found plenty. >> well, on that very note, ukraine, giuliani said he was

there to conduct his controversial investigation into the bidens. we're talking about rudy giuliani, that will then be putting out, presenting a report. that's what the president is saying. when we will understand how and what that form will be, that has not been stated as of yet. okay. we have our t ri-caucus panel. chair of the asia-pacific american congress, judy chew and member from the hispanic caucus, gail ses neris and joyce beatty. great to have all three of you here representing three. >> reporter: key caucuses in the u.s. house of representatives. i'll start with the breaking news right now. you can choose what you'd like to react to first. representative chu, the 55-page report gives us an idea of what your fellow colleagues you know well, chairman nadler, plans on doing, defining what impeachment

means. what did you make of what he put out today? >> i think this lays the groundwork to provide for a hearing that will summarizes what happened in the intelligence committee as well as in the haft hearings of the judiciary committee. this is a president who has betrayed our national security for his own political purposes and has blatantly abused his power. this report will allow the judiciary committee to examine the findings and possibly to come up with articles of impeachment on monday. >> representative beatty, as we look at this, we now have the president saying, yes, rudy giuliani will be presenting a report. again, we don't know the details of that. what might this mean for the impeachment inquiry? >> well, i don't think it will mean a lot because certainly, as we know, with this president and

with those who he has surrounded himself with, they say one thing on one day and they do another. but what i am very pleased about in the report that the judiciary chairman has just released, it gives the public and it will give us the information we need. i think we also know that we have heard from professional career experts, many of them, when you look at being trz's appointees, jerry nadler and his committee, a very diverse committee of experience and intellect, will start writing the articles of impeachment. and i think they're using what they have received from the intelligence committee, from all of those who have come in in public and testified to be able to say to us and the american public, here is how we're starting, here is what we're doing because we know this president has betrayed our national security. we know he's violated the

constitution. we've had constitutional lawyers present information to us, and we also know from his own witnesses and others that he actually engaged with a foreign president to try to get information on his rival opponent to use it for his own good, and that is certainly a violation of the constitution. >> representative cisneros, as we look at what has been laid out in front of us so far in this 55-page report, it's very clear to extend, if you will, the definitions that were used during the nixon era in terms of what does impeachment mean. one of the pieces of clarity is just around the very use of certain powers. i'll read from. the early report remains useful points of reference but no longer reflect the best available learning on questions related to presidential impeachment. that was chairman nadler in terms of why they needed to be updated. are you confident this

definition that's been laid out in front of america will make us understand what's happening? >> i think going to the intelligence committee and everything they did and going to the judiciary, i think they have presented very clearly what this president did and why he needs to be impeached. he put our national security at risk by trying to get a foreign government engaged in our political system for his own personal and political benefit. we cannot allow that to happen as some of the witnesses that testified this week said, the constitutional scholars. if this isn't impeachable, what is? >> representative chu, your republican colleagues whom you know and know well in some cases, they have said, hold on a second, we need to move a little slower. there's even some on the left saying perhaps there's an opening here to explore other fact witnesses, explore other avenues, lines of questioning,

reports. what would you say to your republican colleagues that are saying it may be a bit too fast here? >> well, we have an urgent thing to do, and that is to protect the integrity of our elections in 2020. we can see from this president he is actively trying to interfere with the integrity of that election with his getting ukraine to try to investigate biden. this cannot be. that's why it's so important for us to move ahead with this impeachment hearing to ensure that we can have integrity in the elections as we go forward. but besides that, we have had 100 hours of testimony and we've had 17 witnesses, and that's just in the intelligence committee alone. we've had weeks of testimony with the judiciary committee and

the oversight reform committee. we've had weeks and weeks of testimony. i do not think that we are delaying this at all. in fact -- that we should be delaying this at all. in fact, it's very, very important to move ahead for the sake of the 2020 election. >> representative beatty, as we look at one of the other questions out there in process, it has been said, it was said during the hearings, what about chairman schiff. he's offered to the judiciary committee, why not adam schiff as the lead on that very report, why shouldn't he come forward and be questioned. would you be open to that? >> well, i think what we have to look at, we've had many hearings as congresswoman judy chu just stated, we've had weeks and weeks where i think congressman schiff has done an incredible job of already speaking out to the public, being very clear in his questions to all of those

experts. i think what is very much needed is to hear both sides. we have had the intelligence committee, we have had the oversight and investigations committee. and now we're in judiciary because we're looking at the constitution. we're looking at how you actually right those laws of impeachment. and i think that should lie with the judiciary. it doesn't preclude us from having information from any of the other chairman, any of the other committee people, but we also are working in concert. we are very cohesive in looking at the information. it has been public. i don't think we lose anything by taking it to the judiciary. i think that is absolutely the place it should be at this time. >> representative cisneros, we're all poll watchers. it's what we do, politics is the stuff you do professionally and we watch and we report on. the support at least right now from americans for the impeachment and the removal of

the president within the last couple weeks, you see the latest, 47% do support impeachment and removal from office. that number has been slowly decreasing. what does that say to you? >> for me this has always been an issue about national security and what the president did trying to involve a foreign government involved in our elections. this isn't about watching polls right now. this isn't about a political decision. this is about doing what's right in protecting the constitution, not only for now but for future generations. that's really where we need to go. we can't rely on polls or what's going to tell us. this is too important. there are things there we've got keep working and keep getting our messaging out. one of the things we've got to keep selling to the american people and telling them is we are getting things done. we've passed 275 bipartisan bills through the house of representatives. we're doing the work of the people. we're getting things done. we're going to pass -- we passed

bills focused on voting rights act, equal pay for equal work, and this is a message we need to keep getting out to the american people that they know this is getting done and it's not all about impeachment. >> was that you, representative beatty? >> yes. i was going to say i certainly agree. when you look at what the american public wants, they want both. you might say 47%, a week ago it was over 50%. we know polling is not an exact science. but we do know when we're home in our districts people ask me every day about things that the american people want to talk about, and that's health care, that's affordable housing, jobs and the economy. but i do have people every day saying we expect and want you to protect our national security at any cost necessary. people were very much, more than 50% in favor of the impeachment inquiry. >> go ahead.

>> let me say, our very democracy is at stake. if we let a president invite foreign interference in our election for his own political benefit and do nothing about it, what does this mean for future presidents? what does this mean for the very basis of our democracy, and that is why it is so important for us to do this regardless of the polls, even though in reality i do have to say the polls show there's higher public support for impeachment than in the nixon days at this particular period of time. but i do have to say the people should know that we are doing the people's business as well. in fact, we are having a vote on lowering the price of prescription drugs this very coming week, which i know is a very critical issue for so much of the american people. >> finally to you, representative cisneros, that idea of working for america, working for all americans --

you're voted by all americans here, representative, they will -- i was having a conversation yesterday in georgia. the question was how can we have a conversation in the beltway from a very proud american, georgian saying how can we work in the beltway where it's more together, less divisive. the report that came out by chairman nadler, it was only written by democrats. how do you get the gap closer together? >> there are issues i'm working on. i'm part of the poor country caucus. we're working together on veterans issues. we're working together to pass things. like i said, we passed -- >> how do you bridge that energy? >> we are bridging that energy. that's what the people need to know. we passed 275 bills on a bipartisan basis. we're going to pass bills that will affect our health care system, loer the price of prescription drugs. we have an agricultural bill

we're working on now being pushed through on a bipartisan basis. we are working together out there. we're not just sitting around watching the impeachment hearings. >> you understand what some player cans might be saying. >> people ask me all the time, are you watching the hearings? no. i have my own hearings. we're doing the work of the people and doing work on a bipartisan basis. >> we're also doing work on a bipartisan basis with the hearing. as you'll recall, when democrats and republicans could both go into the skiff and get the confidential it was, it was the republicans who chose to storm it and put us at national risk versus all of them who were allowed to participate. it takes both sides. >> it's always great to have all three of you here to discuss important topics like this. i appreciate all three caucuses, the asian pacific american caucus, the congressional hispanic caution and

congressional black caucus represented today by representative judy chu, gill scisneros and judy. coming up, the white house with an all-star panel coming up later again with all the developments that came out just today on the impeachment inquiry. we're also following breaking news out of pensacola, florida. there are new details into the investigation into the deadly shooting at a naval air station committed by a military trainee from saudi arabia. om saudi arab. i am all about living joyfully. ♪ hello. the united explorer card hooks me up. getting more for getting away. rewarded! going new places and tasting new flavors. rewarded! traveling lighter. rewarded. haha, boom! getting settled. rewarded.

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more breaking news this hour for you in the investigation of the mass shooting yesterday at the naval air station in florida. an official familiar with the investigation now saying there was a dinner before the shooting at which mass shooting videos were viewed. however, the official adds it's unclear what that means. the gunman has been identified as a saudi national who was in the u.s. for military training. the shooting happening in pensacola, florida. that's where we find nbc's blayne alexander. what's the latest on the investigation? >> reporter: we still have so many pressing questions about that shooter and what unfolded yesterday, how he was able to get the gun on base, certainly questions about the vetting process and more about the shooter and those hours before

the deadly massacre. we're also learning more about the people in the gunman's pougt. joshua caleb watson was originally from alabama. i want to share a touching facebook post his brother put up. he describes him, as so many people are, as a hero. he says his brother was shot multiple times inside that classroom building on base but was able to make his way outside and tell first responders where the shooter is, possibly saving countless lives before he died himself. so those are just one of the stories that we're hearing. as we seek to learn more about the victim, we know the fbi is still at the very beginning of what they say is going to be a long, extensive and very intense investigation. we know they've had investigators on base combing through evidence, what they're calling a very large crime scene and will continue to do throughout the day. again, so many people here in pensacola have a number of questions, and we're going to continue to ask those and bring you the very latest.

>> nbc's blayne alexander with the latest. coming up, joe biden and elizabeth warren are going at it. plus, the politics of impeachment. better for democrats or better for the president? emocrats or br for e thpresident? mom, why do we always come here for the holidays? how did you find great-grandma's recipe? we're related to them? we're portuguese? i thought we were hungarian? grandpa, can you tell me the story again?

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president just like he was. >> you're a damn liar, man. that's not true, and no one has ever said that. no one has said my song has done anything wrong, and i did not on any occasion, and no one has ever said it -- >> i didn't say you were doing anything wrong. >> you said i set up my son to work in an oil company. isn't that what you said? get your words straight, jack. >> that was former vice president joe biden in a heated exchange. he was at a town hall in iowa thursday on his no malarky bus tour. while biden was sparring with a voter, other democrats were at each other. senator elizabeth warren attacked mayor pete buttigieg who has been rising in recent polls. when asked about a "new york times" editorial looking into the south bend mayor's past career with a consulting firm, she questioned his private

fund-raising events. >> the mayor should be releasing who is on his finance committee, who are the bundlers who are raising big money for him. >> you think mayor pete's fund-raising campaigns are corrupt? >> i think mayor pete should open up the doors so anyone can come in and report on what's being said. >> a buttigieg campaign aide said, quote, if elizabeth warren wants to have a discussion about transparency, she should start by releasing her tax returns from before 2008 when she was a corporate lawyer defending clients she would likely call bad actors today. joining us, is vaughn hillyard and ali vitali from hollywood, florida. vaughn, what does this fight say about what we're at? >> amy klobuchar just took the stage today.

pete buttigieg will be following her here. he's making a multi--day swing through the state. you're looking at else, you played part of -- when she was talking with reporters the other night. she's calling on pete buttigieg to open up his closed press fund-raisers. we don't have access to these fund-raisers, cannot hear the words he speaks or exactly who is in the room. but in return, pete buttigieg has called on elizabeth warren to release her tax returns back before 2008. she's only released tax returns over the last ten years. of course, one has accounting for which clients she did represent in cases. at the same time, she's also pressed pete buttigieg to talk more about his time at mckenzie, a global consulting firm from 2007 to 2010, richard. pete buttigieg worked as a consultant, and it's not clear exactly who his clients were. he said he has a non-disclosure agreement which he's not allowed to break at this time. he's called on mckenzie to

release him from that nda. he outlined some of the work he did. this is a debate eight weeks out from the iowa caucus where you see two front-runners going toe to toe and calling for more transparency. >> ali vitali, as we look where you're at and president trump who will be there later today -- close by at least -- we were asking this question before it went to break. as the impeachment process moves on and we see the president reacting to it, who is it better for? is it better for the president or for democratic candidates? >> reporter: oh, boy. i don't know. i think time will tell. the president will be here tonight. the issue of transparency, you see it start to percolate, pete buttigieg versus elizabeth warren, bernie sanders talking about billionaires as elizabeth warren often does. all these issues of transparency in business for the people who want to go up against donald trump, donald trump has not been the pinnacle for transparency. frankly, all these candidates

should be more transparent if they want to draw an even starker contrast between them and the president. i think what elizabeth warren is doing that's interesting and frankly a departure from how she's been on the campaign trail, she doesn't typically go after her democratic opponents. the fact she's engaging with mayor pete buttigieg on this issue, urging more transparency on his closed press fund-raisers, his work at mckenzie, it makes sense she'd pig this argument because it fits her larger core campaign message of anti tore rupgs. it makes sense that this is a hill she would want to die on when it comes to taking to it mayor pete as you see those two jockeying for position on those polls. >> appreciate both of you. thanks so much. now to the politics of impeachment on the very note we were getting from our road warriors there, how it affects both republicans and democrats in 2020. in a new op-ed in "the

washington post," msnbc political analyst hugh hewitt argues for democrats impeachment is a, quote, flop and so are their 2020 candidates. hugh hewitt joins me now. also with us, democratic strategist and former executive director of the new york state democratic party, basil smikle. >> hugh, you're saying pete buttigieg, if you were to pick one for the democratic side is an interesting candidate. why might he be the interesting one? i guess some folks might say i don't quite see that either. >> good afternoon evening. i call him perpetually poised pete. no matter what they throw at him, he's always poised. i'm a conservative republican and i watch the field taking form. the only one i see without massive drawbacks is mayor pete. i can't even begin to understand why elizabeth warren is bringing up conflicts of interest. she used to work for kaplan and

dries dale, this enormous law firm. she opens that pan door's back because pete buttigieg works for mckenzie and company, i think she's feeling panic on her side. they're all starting to attack pete, vice president biden, elizabeth warren, tells me the mayor has become their number one threat. as a republican, i think he poses the greatest challenge to president trump, half his age, completely different personality, a temperament that's 100% opposite. he's the one that would worry me. >> basel, what do you think? interesting argument being made here and reflect, also, on what we were talking about with the road warriors. as they go with each other, whether it's a law background and experience you have or working for a strategy firm, law firm might be a little more non-headline friendly. >> i think it's pete buttigieg's time in the spotlight. that's what we're seeing here.

there probably is a little bit more to the engagement between him and elizabeth warren. remember in an earlier debate it was mayor pete that went after elizabeth warren on how she would pay for her health care plan. that vaulted him into the polls and it caused elizabeth to slip a little bit. i think there's an interesting tension there that i'm sure we'll see continue to play out. i'm not surprised that candidates have sharper elbows right now because we're getting closer. you see joe biden come out in that town hall. i'm not sure why he wasn't prepared for that question with respect to his son. he needs to be more prepared for that. i imagine all the candidates will be going after each other more so as we get closer, especially since there's so few of them on the debate stage now. >> so few. i guess everything is relative, right? >> down from 21.

>> hugh, reflect on why joe biden, this is not his first rodeo. he was asked a question there in the midwest and not able to handle what some might say, what basil is i understand mighting, a straightforward question he has been asked in the past and will continue to be asked going forward. >> i sense the vice president reads headlines like we all do. i try to infer from what he did that he was upset. maybe it's reggie love endorsing pete buttigieg. maybe it's austan goolsbee, a very well respected obama-era alum bus. the president's body man reggie love and the president obama's chair, both endorsing pete buttigieg. joe biden is in iowa and knows he's behind. south carolikorea kentucky i south carolina is be lined them. add in a parent's natural

tendency to come to the defense of their child. he let shirt, fat, got a lot of play on twitter. some people say he said facts. i listened to it closely. it was a very bad look for vice president biden in a very good state for pete buttigieg and then it's on to new hampshire where elizabeth warren has a built-in advantage from the boston media market. a lot of explanations but none of them good for vice president biden. >> one of the polls that democrats might like is one that just came out, and this was president trump's approval rating in key swing states that came out from morning consult. when you look at approve/disapprove, this doesn't mean who do you vote for blindly, you can see iowa, wisconsin, michigan, ohio, pennsylvania, we know three of those key firewall states were essential in 2016 for who was going to be sitting in the white house. basil, what does this mean for

democrats? it's a high number because you're in a plus 50 range. >> i think what it says is we're going in the right direction, but we have to be careful. you had three members of congress on earlier. my concern is that after all this impeachment is said and done, we need to get back to the business of policy, appropriations bills, other types of bills that actually need to get pushed -- even if they die in the senate, we have to go back and tell our constituents that we were doing the business, continuing the do the business of the people. one thing that is going to happen after the -- as these impeachment hearings go on and the members of congress go back home, they're going to have individual conversations with their constituents to continue to promote their particular narrative. it takes it off of tv and puts it right back into the communities. so we have to be prepared when this is all said and done to pivot right back to policy. >> we look at those swing states which you know well here, hugh. i reflect on what rick wilson wrote this week.

you probably heard about it in the rolling stone, titled the traitors among us. he's pointing his finger at key components being made by certain republicans that are in support of what the president has done right now, and he puts in question whether they're being traitorous or treasonous. >> there are a couple dozen republicans who always available to say something terrible about president trump. i asked the toughest questions of anyone in the 2016 campaign, so i know there are tough questions the president has to answer. i look at the market university poll in wisconsin, totally flipped on impeachment. 53% oppose it, 40% approve of it. i look at the emerson polls that came out this week, the only one beating donald trump is bernie sanders and not by a lot. there are a couple of ties, elizabeth warren, pete buttigieg is behind him, joe biden is behind him. i think impeachment is

smothering the democratic message. i read as quickly as i could the nadler report. on page 31 it says, let's get -- i'm paraphrasing, obviously, you don't have to have a crime to impeach a president. the implication of that is there is no crime. so as time goes on, i think it's going to become a greater and greater anchor around every democrat's neck. i think he's right, they've got to get away from this as fast as they can. >> page 31 says it's occasionally suggested presidents can be impeached only if they committed crimes. that position was rejected in president nixon's case and rejected again in president clinton's and should be rejected once more. i think that's what you're alluding to there. great conversation, two smart people here. hugh hewitt, basil smikle, enjoy your weekend. breaking news out of iran where an american hostage was released in a rare diplomatic exchange with the u.s. e u.s.

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we're following breaking news out of iran where an american student held three years in an iranian prison now has been set free. that american's name is xiyue wang. he was released after a prison swap. an unusual diplomatic breakthrough in an intense relationship between the united states and iran. ali arouzi is in tehran with us. walk us through how this all

came together and was this a good, as those watchers might be considering now, was it a good swap? >> reporter: well, it was a swap and that's a good thing because it secured the freedom of at least two people, and it is a significant case because it marks a rare occasion where there's been cooperation between washington and tehran, two olden mes that usually can't agree on anything, also the timing was unusual. it comes during a period of extremely high tension between the two sides, since president trump pulled out of the nuclear deal. those tensions are showing no signs of going away, so it's surprising that this happened. mr. wang had been in a notorious prison here for three years. he always claimed his innocence, even though he had been charged with two counts of espionage,

and had been given a ten-year sentence. just the fact that he didn't have to spend ten years in an iranian prison is a good thing, that he'll now be reunited with his family. richard, i've got to tell you, this shouldn't be seen as some major opening between the united states and iran, even though president trump just spoke moments ago saying this could be a possible opening for negotiations between iran and america. from where i'm standing, the chances of that are slim to none. the hardliners who run the country here have reiterated time and time again as recently as today and yesterday that there is no chance of negotiations with america. so this looks like it was a one-off isolated event. richard. >> many american diplomats happy. xiyue wang released to day. ali arouzi with us, 1:14 a.m. on a sunday. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. ♪oh there's no place like home for the holidays.♪

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applebee's new sizzlin' entrées. now starting at $9.99. this report will allow the judiciary committee to examine the findings and possibly to come up with articles of impeachment on monday. >> they're using what they have

received from the intelligence committee, from all of those who have come in in public and testified to be able to say to us and the american public, here is how we're starting, here is what we're doing. >> the intelligence committee and their inquiry and everything they did and now moving on to the judiciary, this is definitely, they have presented i think very clearly what this president did and why he needs to be impeached. >> all right. just some of the interview that i had at the top of the hour with congressional leadership from the black, asian and hispanic caucuses. they were reacting the the three new developments today. there's a 55-page document released by the judiciary committee that laid out how impeachment will be defined in the hearings as well as we understand who are the lawyers. that's the second thing that happened today. that will be representing the cases for republicans and democrats. it was also what the president said today, that rudy giuliani will be giving some sort of report to congress.

we don't know what it is or the details behind that. that's all that happened today. the folks that know more, charlie savage washington correspondent for the new york city times, anita kumar, political white house correspondent, glenn kirschner, msnbc legal analyst. that could be a one-hour show just on those few things n. the five or six minutes we've got with you, let's kick it off with you, charlie. what do you make of the three developments today? >> well, the first one that interests me are the fact that democrats will have two different presentations, one by barry berke and goad man from the intelligence committee. the first gets 30 minutes, the other 45 minutes. what that tells me is democrats are very serious about@adding an impeachment article about obstruction of justice for the mueller investigation to the ukraine affair. that's what the judiciary committee had been investigating before the ukraine thing broke out.out. so the fact that they're going

to have their own staff lawyer do a 30-minute presentation suggests we'll see a third article of impeachment saying obstruction of justice to mueller when all of this is said and done. >> anita, that was the question coming into the weekend. we didn't know necessarily whether that was going to be part of the judiciary committee's hearings and what they would be moving forward with. >> yes, that's right. we were kind of waiting to see. there are lots of other lawmakers and groups looking to add other things to what the judiciary committee is going to where i up. but those other things like, you know, relating to donald trump's businesses and other things just aren't going to make it, it doesn't look like. they're going to narrow the scope to those two things. the white house mentioned last night they're going to be sitting this out and watching from the white house, watching from the trump campaign but not

physically be in the room to, you know, provide the president's -- his own defense there. >> this has been certainly a busy year of reading. glenn kirschner, always glad to have you here when something like this comes out, this constitutional grounds for presidential impeachment that came in from chairman nadler. this is an update from the nixon era, 26 pages long, about double the size. from your understanding of what chairman nadler and what the democrats have put forth, what's the big headline coming up next out of the report for you, glenn? >> it does seem important, richard, that they're going to apparently pursue an article of impeachment based on the obstruction of justice that came out of the mueller investigation. i can tell you if we look at the parallel proceedings, a criminal trial, if someone on trial for a bank robbery, and i have evidence that that defendant committed two prior bank robberies, then you can bet i'm

going to avail myself of the rules of evidence that allow us to litigate the admissibility of those earlier bank robberies to show a pattern of conduct, because what we have here is the president obstructing justice with the russia probe and getting away with it because the mueller report noted that they couldn't fully develop the evidence of a potential conspiracy because of the obstructive efforts by the president. what do we have here, richard? here we have a president who has ordered administration officials not to testify, officials who could provide incriminating information, ordered agencies not to imply with lawfully issued subpoenas for documents that could help prove exactly what the president and his associates did. so approximate pattern is unmistakable, that there is a serious of obstruction of justice offenses by this president designed to help him get away with it, and it looks like maybe he's coming to the

end of that road. >> he has a criminal argument is what glenn is saying. this is a way based on what's in front of us at the moment but charlie, this is a politicial process. one might say don't put mueller in there because it's third rail when it comes to what americans are watching as well as what congress members are watching. don't put the "m" word in there. >> it's cleaner to talk about only the ukraine affair. it's a simpler, easier-to-understand accusation against the president. the notion that mueller didn't find evidence sufficient to prove a conspiracy with russia, but trump may have committed obstruction of justice or attempted obstruction of justice in that probe is a messier narrative. and trump spent two years portraying the whole thing as a witch hunt and so forth, whereas the ukraine thing can fit on a bumper sticker. that's the argument to keep it

simple on this. i'm saying if they're going to have barry burke do a separate presentation, it sure looks like they've decided they're going to throw this in as well. >> anita, quickly, rudy giuliani giving a report to congress? >> right. the president announced that today. we were all sort of startled by that. obviously we've seen that rudy giuliani has continued to investigate. he's been over in ukraine. we've been wondering what he's been finding out and the president says he wants to testify and provide a report to congress. so we'll see. sometimes he says things and they can't actually happen. we don't know who's going to come testify yet, but that's what the house has been working on moving ahead to the senate. that's what they've been focused on complete is the senate trial. they'll help the senate, the republican majority there coming up with this witness list. it'll be interesting to see if he ends up on that list. >> 30 seconds, glenn. would you call? would you have rudy giuliani if you're on the republican side?

>> not in a million years. we all saw him on tv famously say in one breath i never asked the ukrainians to investigate biden and then in the next breath, of course i asked the ukrainians to investigate biden. when i heard the president a few minutes ago, richard, say i don't know what rudy's been doing over there or what defense he might have of me, but he's going to present it, that's not the way lawyering works. the defense belongs to the client and working with the client. the lawyer then offers the defense that the client has authorized him to offer. so this is lawyering stood on its head. >> the script-writing is getting exciting, certainly. charlie savage, anita kumar, glenn kirschner, have a good saturday. i'm richard lui. i'll be back tonight at 6:00 p.m. eastern. look forward to seeing you then. "politicsnation" with reverend al sharpton, that's next.

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