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tv   MSNBC Live  MSNBC  December 7, 2019 4:00pm-5:00pm PST

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well, it is day 75 in the impeachment inquiry and a busy one at that. today the house judiciary committee released this report on grounds for impeachment. the original document was written during the nixon impeachment process. it was updated during clinton's inquiry. now updated again fairly extensively prepared now for the case against donald trump, 55 pages long. jerry nadler released a statement saying the framers' worst nightmare is what we are facing in this very moment. if you could tell it's a working weekend for nadler and his team on the hill. go time is monday. the next impeachment hearing.
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9:00 a.m. eastern on monday. today, we learned the names of those who will be presented in that hearing. counsels for the judiciary and intelligence committee, republicans and democrats and the white house will not participate but the president suggested his person attorney rudy giuliani could send a report to congress. >> he did get back to europe just recently and has not told me what he found but wants to go to congress and to the attorney general and department of justice i hear he's found plenty. >> giuliani visited ukraine as you heard the president alluding to this week. he talked about the investigation in an interview this morning. >> i feel a great deal of frustration that the southern district of new york allows an article to be written that i'm being investigated for bribery and joe biden hasn't been asked a question in a grand jury about what is a clear, absolute 100%
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admission of a bribery. >> nbc news asked giuliani what he hoped to accomplish in ukraine. he responded saying i will revite it when i'm ready and if this doesn't shake up the watch and get us to the cut out the years of corruption i might then agree with those who say it's hopeless. we'll get to all that but first a look now at the case that democrats are making this week against donald trump. >> the president abused his power for his own personal political benefit at the expense of our national security by withholding military aid and in exchange for an announcement of an investigation into his political rival. the president's actions have seriously violated the constitution. especially when he says and acts upon the belief article 2 says i can do whatever i want. no, his wrongdoing strikes at the very heart of our
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constitution. a separation of powers. three coequal branches, each a check and balance on the other. the president has engaged in abuse of power undermining our national security and jeopardizing the integrity of our elections. i am asking our chairman to begin with articles of impeachment. >> it's something i do not think we have ever seen before. a president who has doubled down on violating his oath to faithfully execute the laws and to protect and defend the constitution. >> president trump has committed impeachable high crimes and misdemeanors by corruptly abusing the office of the presidency. >> after reviewing the evidence that's been made public, i cannot help but conclude that this president has attacked each of the constitution's safeguards against establishing a monarchy in this country. if what we're talking about is not impeachable then nothing is.
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>> is it fair to say all three causes for impeachment explicitly contemplated by the founders abuse of power, betrayal of our national security and corruption of our elections are present in this president's conduct, yes or no, professorary feldman. >> yes. >> and professor gear hart. >> yes, sir. >> professor karlan. >> yes. >> you all agree. >> some of the highlights. jonathan allen, nbc news digital reporter and anne gearan, "the washington post" contributor and robert tsai, professor of law at american university. jonathan, straight to what's new today. that's basically how they plan on defining impeachment, right? the very word supposedly that chairman nadler is saying this is how we'll decide, 55 pages long. what sticks out in it to you. >> i mean, i think we basically got a feeling from that hearing the other day and some of the clips that you just showed there. we're basically look at abuses
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of power and as those law professors laid out to shorten what they said, they essentially said it's as if the president looks add the words the constitution uses for impeachment and sought to exploit them as much as he possibly could? a part of that, anne gearan, is the potential discussion of mueller, obstruction of justice, when you look at the pages and statements the democrats have used in this 55-page here is what we plan on doing. >> yeah, richard, a number of democrats have dropped some pretty broad hints that the articles, full articles when they're drafted are likely to include references to the things that robert mueller says in his report and he comes collide close to saying the president abused his office and veered
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against criminal conduct in that report, but as we all know, mueller stopped short of putting a fine point on that or making any specific recommendations about what should happen as a result of his findings. he left that to congress. these many months later, it appears that at least part of what will be considered at the end of this prose will be -- will involve the mueller findings, and, of course, let's remember that some of the mueller findings overlap a bit with what happened later with ukraine just simply because mueller dealt with foreign interference in an election involving russia and this set of allegations involves the idea that both that trump would say that the 2016 election was meddled in by ukraine rather than russia which sort of would -- that's his do-over for the mueller report.
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and the allegation that he was seeking further interference in the upcoming election to benefit him by having the ukrainians investigate a political rival. >> when we look at that broad possibility, discussion points that may have been made here, robert, when we look at this current report and look at the nixon report, you're the law person here, right, if you will. what stands out between the comparison in the comparison of these two documents? >> it looks like you've got the representatives in the house really trying to lay the groundwork for obstruction of justice and/or obstruction of the house's constitutional functions kind of article of impeachment so you do see repeated references to richard nixon's cooperation, president nixon while he was undergoing impeachment allowed his high aides to testify.
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they submitted documents although some of the tapes, of course, the transcripts were incomplete but by comparison president nixon was incredibly cooperative and what you see in the report here is an effort to lay out a real effort, what they call a strong pattern of obstruction on the part of president trump from the top. they got a long list in the first report from the intelligence committee detailing all of the people who were subpoenaed who have refused to comply categorically so i think we'll definitely see that comparison be drummed from here on out. >> so that was new today. jonathan, also new today, rudy giuliani, potentially presenting a report and what rudy giuliani made claims of back to ukraine, biden, fact check that as well as you heard what he said
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earlier and the possibility of him presenting a report to congress. >> it's very strange for rudy giuliani who is -- who is in the center of this story to be going to ukraine right now. this is -- you know, a couple of his associates have been detained and arrested on their way out of the country who have been charged in this case and here's rudy giuliani heading over to, you know, the scene of the alleged crime to gather new evidence to try to bring back. this is as if you had a couple of associates who were charged with bank robbery and decided to go into the house that -- sorry, into the bank that they have alleged to have broken into and decided that you would find some evidence there. this is a very, very odd situation the giuliani has injected himself into and the president is injecting himself into and let's remember also in this case that when the president was found to or when
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the president was accused by the whistle-blower of having done this arms for dirt deal in the first place, it was not until the whistle-blower had come forward that the white house started to become let's say the white house started to have some justification for having held back that money. that all of a sudden there was this new evidence that came forward for why they were holding back funding for ukraine. so it might be worth looking at giuliani going over to ukraine looking for new evidence in light of that context of a white house that has a pattern of finding new evidence once it's caught doing something. >> anne gearan, what does it say about the relationship that the president has with his personal attorney and we've been discussing that, clearly he has made a trip that as jonathan so well analogized for us, if you are accused of robbing a bank you go back to the bank you are accused of robbing, that is an interesting, we'll use that word
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right now, incident that giuliani is involved in today as regarding an impeachment inquiry. >> i think a number of things are clear here. starting with the fact that rudy giuliani's job appears to be safe at least for a bit. there is an awful lot of speculation going back a couple of months now that rudy giuliani's days were numbered as the president's attorney because he appeared to be causing a decisional problems when he already had a whole lot to deal with, however, the fact that giuliani has the president's ear and continues to have the president's ear and does a thing that the president very much likes and does it well which is he is a bulldog in defense of president trump. he goes on television. he tweets. he runs around new york city and now he's running around ukraine in defense of the president very publicly and that is something trump wants to see in his defenders and it suggests that
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giuliani is here to stay at least for a bit and the other is that, you know, president trump actually really appears to believe some of what is often generously called an unproved or even baseless conspiracy theory about ukrainian involvement in 2016 and further that the ukrainians were trying to gain the then vice president, joe biden, by hiring his son. there is no evidence that any of those things are true and, in fact, the idea that ukraine interfered in the 2016 election has been fact-checked by nbc, by "the washington post" by maybe 50 other organizations and fact-checking groups an found thought to be the case. so i don't know what giuliani is going to come back with and attempt to present to congress but we can see that he and that
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set of allegations will be a main talking point for the republicans, so let's see if the republicans end up calling him. >> robert, what do you make of this? >> i think it's going to put enormous pressure on how the senators run this trial. and when we get over to the authorities' side of things the rules are going to be interesting an somewhat complicated because the chief justice will preside, but the truth is while the chief might be asked to make rulings about subpoenas and evidentiary questions that's subject to a vote by the entire senate so it would only take a single short to request or the president's lawyers to request a subpoena for giuliani or to ask that a committee be appointed to take testimony from giuliani and so but i think there will be senators who won't want the
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proceedings to turn into the kind of circus we saw on the republican side so this is going to be quite something to watch them navigate the formalities and the partisan pressures in. >> we'll talk more about that later in the show as it makes it over to the senate. we'll see you later this hour. thanks so much. the president takes his defense strategy to florida tonight as democrats prepare the tonight as democrats prepare the articles of impeachment in d.c. as soon as the homeowners arrive, we'll inform them that liberty mutua customizes home insurance, so they'll only pay for what they need. your turn to keep watch, limu. wake me up if you see anything. [ snoring ] [ loud squawking and siren blaring ] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪
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welcome back. president trump has been mounding his own vigorous defense on the impeachment inquiry. he even mentioned the inquiry while attending the nato summit in the united kingdom this week and says no crimes were committed. >> i think it's very unpatriotic of the democrats, impeachment wasn't supposed to be used that way. all you have to do is read the transcript, you will see there was absolutely nothing done wrong. the word impeachment is a dirty word and it's a word that was only supposed to be used in special occasion, high crimes and misdemeanors. in this case there was no crime whatsoever. not even a tiny crime. >> worried about the impeachment and your legacy. >> no, it's a big fat hoax. >> the impeachment thing is a total hoax. the numbers have totally swung our way. they don't want to see impeachment, especially in the swing states.
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i've never seen a swing like this because people realize it's a total hoax. >> today, president trump is attending two events in florida, a crucial swing state he was alluding to. those events are the republican party of florida, 2019 statesman's dinner and israeli-american annual national conference. this is happening as president trump's approval rating among florida voters is split, 45.6 approve, 51.4% disapprove. you can see the margin of error at the bottom. according to the polls this week -- florida voters chose him in the 2016 election giving him a farrow victory over hillary clinton. joining me is ali vitaly. the president going to be there having two key meetings and one of which you are at. >> reporter: exactly, richard. you're right. this is a swingy swing state you lay out the numbers or close to split is not surprising. we're used to 1 and 2-point
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marg margins in the state. as we look ahead, it could very well be something similar but you're right he's taking his impeachment defense on the road. we saw before he left here that he was again calling the impeachment inquiry a total hoax and even just yesterday we've seen his white house effectively continue to stonewall in this process. white house council pat cipollone sending a letter back to the house judiciary committee saying they won't necessarily comply with anything the committee is asking for. pretty much keeping in lockstep with what we've seen from the white house at each step of this impeachment inquiry but they're looking ahead as so many of us are to when this and if this eventually gets to the senate. at the end of that letter from cipollone there's a reminder that president trump tweeted earlier in the week basically saying if you're going to impeach me do it quickly so it can get to the senate where trump thinks he will have a fair trial. that's because republicans are in charge of that body. the beat i cover, that means they are on a crash course if the house was to pass these
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articles of impeachment and it goes to the senate and all those democrats campaigning for president right now, that means less time in iowa and new hampshire ahead of critical voting times and a lot more time spent in washington so all of these beats about to come on a crash course in just a few weeks, richard, if the house pushes forward with impeachment. >> ali, something you see on the road, is that distinction what has been leveling off or slight diminishing support for impeachment and remove. that is, if you watch the numbers on the averages that's where things have come to today but on the flip side then we have to look at the vote, right? what is going to happen in 2020 as you're alluding to? one poll that came out in iowa, wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania. disappointing rating, mid-50s for most. one might say if you look at what's happening with the impeachment inquiry, it's starting to hurt approval of the president potentially or certainly not helping.
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especially when you look at these numbers. >> reporter: that's exactly right. that's why there was so much skepticism on our parts and other reporters when we heard allies of the white house and white house saying that impeachment would help president trump. i asked voters regularly when i'm out on the trail, many have said regardless of what their initial buy was was going into the impeachment inquiries that they're watching and paying attention. not necessarily changing anybody's mights. those voters who think that the president did sog wrong with his phone call with the ukrainian president generally watch those hearings and feel the same way. those who didn't feel that way still don't teal that way but they're all watching. i do think when you have this consistent drumbeat coming out of washington talking about the president's wrongdoogz, that does allow it to take hold and eventually awe of these roads lead to 2020. democrats on the campaign trail consistently pressing the case but they'll have to do it in a different way. washington democrats are making the case on impeachment.
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the challenge is to make that argument on other fronts whether it's the economy or other policy items. we're seeing that split play out in realtime as well. >> always great to have you. ali vitali with the president about to speak. politics of impeachment beyond the president. lots of democrats and republicans in congress are facing some critical decisions with political consequences. cologuard: colon cancer screening for people 50 plus at average risk. some things are harder than you thought. and others are easier. like screening for colon cancer with me, cologuard. i'm noninvasive and you use me at home. i'm also effective. i find 92% of colon cancers using dna in your stool. so why wait?
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thank you sofi. sofi thank you, we love you. ♪ well, the topic of impeachment has risks for both parties today. the democrats led by speaker nancy pelosi must decide whether they are willing to risk alienating crucial voting blocs during a critical year. republicans led by house minority leader kevin mccarthy must decide whether they can continue to get away with attacking the impeachment process while dodging questions about whether the president's dealings were ukraine were appropriate. >> ever appropriate for a president to ask for a country to investigate a close -- >> okay, let's stick to the facts. the president asked a country to participate in a case that happened in 2016. that's 100% legal. that happens every -- >> on the phone call --
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if that happens every day in america dealing with other countries. >> this president did nothing wrong, there was nothing wrong impeachable. so i've said all along it's easy for us to make the argument because the process is terrible. >> you have no hem with any of this. >> i have zero problems with his phone call. >> is it appropriate for a president to -- >> we are going to have an investigation. >> the president did nothing wrong, the facts on our side, four facts have never changed. idea we have the transcript, the transcript clearly says there was no linkage between the two. >> do you think that was an appropriate reyes. >> i believe our country should be working together to get to the bottom of what happened whether it's burisma, joe biden, it's hunter biden. >> joining me chris liu, michael gordon, former rnc spokesamerican and former senior spokesconcern kevin sheridan and
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susan del percio. as you know, we say home field advantage, as we look at the this next week, monday, we have a sense of the way that chairman nadler is thinking, the way he's defining what impeachment will be. when we think of how congress is or is not working together on sog that's so important to this constitution and to this republic, this is only written, 55 pages by only the democrats. in the nixon era it was written, this guide of how to do this stuff was written by both democrats and republicans. >> yeah, but and the die has already been cast. it is going to be a republican versus democrat and you're not -- especially -- >> it is what it is. >> it is what it is and i think most americans are kind of trying to figure out what happened and already have the foregone conclusion the president will be impeached and the stat will not convict him. we can almost fast forward two months and be in the same exact
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place. the harder decision politically is not for the republicans. they don't have a lot more to lose frankly in the house, for example, so it's a matter of swing districts they control that nancy pelosi is watching. in the senate, that's going to be a different story because there's the majority for the republicans to keep in some districts that are very much for or i should say states that are for impeaching the president but, again, they're all playing who their new silos, if you're conservative playing to the conservative new silo. if you're a liberal you're playing to the liberal new silo and reaching their own answers. >> chris, is it cast? >> well, i think it is cast and i think what's important to understand i think when you look at public support for whether the impeachment inquiry or generally, you to it will be 45% support is higher than what it was during clinton and nixon but
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that's a look at the media landscape we operate in. can you mer suede the people in the middle, 10% who are independents and important to understand donald trump won independents by four percentage points in 2016. that group swung wildly to democrats in 2018. they'll be the margin of error but then when you get to the senate it's places like colorado, new mexico -- north carolina. >> staying in the hearing and staying in the senate, kevin, chris murphy was saying, i may have had conversations that intermate to me there are five at maximum republican senators that might be thinking otherwise from that which has been said so far. is that a possibly when we do get to the senate, the date senate theoretically we will
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have some cracks or more moderation in some spaces here because you need 51 votes to move forward when it comes to process in the hearing. >> there's some soft support. i think if there was a movement for censure, i think you'd see some republican senators actually move that way. to impeach and remove there's no chance of that happening now. you need a supermajority for that obviously and the senate -- even the soft trump supporting senators haven't made enough noise to make that anywhere near a possibility so i think it's interesting, it's a look at the 31 democrats and the house in trump districts. new polling has it that, you know, impeach and remove is as much as 60% unpopular this those states or distributes. we don't know what the articles are going to be but right now, democrats don't have the case. they can impeach but they can't convict. >> when you look at those numbers and i want to go and take a look at the approval
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ratings for president trump in key midwestern states you're alluding to, kevin, iowa, michigan, pennsylvania, you have to split the difference. it's not only necessarily what's happening in impeachment and removal point of view but later on for 2020 november this all could affect to some degree. michael gordon, and you have to split the difference here if you are in one of those swing districts. >> absolutely. i certainly wouldn't take anything forgranted. the big missed opportunity for the democrats is it's not enough to be write. they certainly have done an impeccable job on the hearings but not reaching to those purple districts where either the democrats are currently holding or where the republicans are to either protect their democrats or put pressure on the republicans. republicans are spending an enormous amount in paid media. much more than democrats are to help their candidates. >> almost double by last count.
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>> yeah, and so and the democrats need to do that kind of work too. you know, we're living in an era where it seems like nothing matters so the democrats ran these incredible hearings. it had minimal impact. trump's behavior gets worse and worse. i'll even say biden makes a lot of gaffes on the campaign trail, still the front-runner for the nomination. feels like we're living in an era where nothing matters. >> susan. >> just one thing, richard. you showed all those numbers on impeachment. >> right. >> do not confuse those numbers with the president's favorability numbers or if he's doing a good job. they are not reflective of that. that 10% if you will that was just mentioned that in the middle that they don't -- some of them don't like the idea of getting him out this way. they're willing to vote him out but necessarily impeach him. >> as a pollster, three separate questions. who do you vote for in 2020y do
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you approve impeachment and do you have approval or disapproval for the president right now. how do you put them together? >> you have to look to internal polls and find out who is gettable and how they're gettable. and say, all right. well, those who are obviously for purchasement you're not against impeachment, but there is some work to be done if you -- people in your district are against impeachment but have a high unfavorable view of the president. >> you know, we look at the two different parties here, chris lu, top issues and this is coming from 2020 early state -- early states and look at top issues for democrats first. health care, 87%. impeaching the president, down there at 52%. for republicans impurchase president isn't even on my list here. it's not even here at the top of the list, immigration, 29% so
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some ideas of how the point of view of the world is very different for both parties at the moment. >> well, it's also explains why there is a bifurcated message among the 2020 presidential candidates and what's happening in washington. when you're out in iowa people are talking about health care and talking about student loans and talking about education. they're not talking about impeachment and meanwhile people in washington, that gives the luxury of the democratic candidates because they understand the focus is on the president here in washington. and that does have the collateral damage of bringing down some of his approval rating thought to say that's why democrats are doing it. while they focus on the issues for what they would do if they were president. >> kevin, i was looking at the numbers for issues important to republicans. none of them an we'll put that back up again. you probably noticed the two. none are over 30%. and, you know, i'm no pollster. what does that tell you, the
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issues important to democrats they're all 50%, 60%. what do you make that have? >> i think republicans are generally happy right now. there is a few things they'd like to see get done and trade is an important one. and not necessarily on that list but it's one of the things the congress could get done but if we freeze up the senate for who knows how long, well into february, that does a couple of things and freezes any legislation from gith passed and all the senators running for president from campaigning and who does that benefit? pete buttigieg and mike bloomberg because everybody else will be stuck in the senate six days a week. >> i want to get to one other point while we have you here. when we okay at this and what pelosi needs to do to get to the votes as articles are being written potentially. the word is she can't actively or does not want to actively lip
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the vote. let everybody make their own decision on their own. this should not be a hyper political let's all get together and make the choice. is that the right way to do it. >> she wants members to vote their conscious. she sees it as important in our history, trump isn't looking at it that way. that's why seed such a somber serious tone when she made her announcement the other day. i think she's thinking we need to get it over as quickly as possible so we can talk about the issues that we are clearly winning on, health care, affordable housing, been safety, education, the issues voters care about and real people will vote on in those swing states next november so the quicker we can get impeachment done even if he's not removed, the quicker we can get to those positions. >> nancy pelosi knows where
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every vote is. >> let's have that be the way we leave it. have a good supplement -- saturday. i'm already thinking it's the end of the weekend. we'll be back right after this. more on the impeachment fight, stick with us. (dad) one under par on a hole is a...? (daughter) birdie! (dad) that's what i'm talkin' about. and a score of two under par is...? (daughter) big birdie! (dad) no, it's not that, it's uh... (rickie) turkey vulture! (dad) rickie fowler, i'm sorry, what...? (rickie) turkey vulture. (dad) oh! thats a turkey-oh! all right, lets go. i'll follow you. go, go, go- go! (burke) otherwise known as sand trap scavengers. seen it, covered it. september twenty-ninth, twenty-seventeen. at farmers insurance, we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪
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with house speaker nancy pelosi moving forward with drafting articles of impeachment the senate trial seems inevitable. one of the key figures in that, senator lindsey graham, chairman of the judiciary committee talking about what he will do and what he will not. >> i think it's a bad day for the country.
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i think this whole thing is a joke. mueller, i trusted. i don't trust schiff. i don't trust nadler to find the truth and the speaker said it should be bipartisan. it should be prayerful and thoughtful so what happened? why don't -- i don't have any desire to subpoena adam schiff's phone records. now, my phone records, subpoenaed now, if somebody investigated body outside the senate overtight committee caps to do them but had they start subpoenaing each other as part of oversight the whole system breaks. if you exclude hearsay which every court in the land would unless there's an exception, i will not allow that to go forward unless the whistle-blower comes forward. >> lindsey graham. coming up, the other key figure in a potential senate trial. mitch mcconnell. cut.
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can 51% of us can agree on how to handle i. that failing, my assumption is once you heard the arguments on both sides, then motions would be made. and my suspicion is the chief justice would not want to rule on those and submit it to the senate and 51% of us would decide on a case-by-case cyst. >> he is ready to work out a deal with chuck schuhmann. y -- schumer. that's the majority leader as he mentioned it's crucial while the number, 67 which you've heard more often to remove the president for office, the 51 or just the 51 votes required, who will be testifying. what is the next step that the senate will undertake. if a majority is unattainable at 51, both party also partake in a series of votes on various motions which could include anything from summoning
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witnesses to how to manage floor time. so while the president's tweets suggests he expects the bidens, adam schiff, nancy pelosi and the whistle-blower to be called to testify, it will only take a few republicans, you know, could be mitt romney, susan collins, lisa murkowski moderate republicans to join democrats to block potential requests like that. okay, my panel is back with me and that's just scratching the surface at the moment. jonathan allen, you know, for geeks, you can really read if this because the rules are so specific about what will happen in the senate but i think a bigger idea is mitch mcconnell and how he plans on running this from what we heard just now that we played, it's already talking about working with the democrats. >> yeah, at some level what he's saying there is a warning to the democrats if they don't work with him, the senate can break down pretty easily and republicans have the majority to do anything and will be
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difficult for the democrats to get 51 votes on anything they want. >> talking about the potential witness list or those who might give testimony in part of a market. what are you hearing, anne? if the president requests certain individuals to come to the hearing, it's really not his game or it could be his game. >> well, i mean, certainly the assumption has been that when we get to the senate, that mitch mcconnell and the republicans will have already agreed basically on how far they're going to allow it to go in not only the length of time they expect the trial to take but how they want to manage the rules which includes who testifies and a number of other procedural things that mcconnell will have worked that out ahead of time. you can kind of see him working it out in see him working it out in real time now, but i
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do not -- i do not think it is going to look particularly chaotic unless there's something new happens or to your point from earlier that a number of moderate republicans start to defect. then i think you could start to see things look a little topsy-turvy. but mcconnell plans to keep it tight and to, you know, have things agreed ahead of time what he will agree to and what he won't. >> since this is your beat, the white house, do we expect that the president will then potentially go after mcconnell if he doesn't see, for instance, adam schiff being asked to come to the hearing? >> well, yes, in a word. the president has already done this in other settings. he and mcconnell have actually a much better relationship than they used to. they used to really rub one another the wrong way. and each would let it show.
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but they need each other. and mcconnell has found a way to do things for the president that really secure his position. obviously, he doesn't need the president to secure his position specifically. but i mean to kind of make sure the president isn't nipping at his heels. however, if trump starts to feel that mcconnell is letting too much happen that the president doesn't like, then i would fully expect to see him tweet his displeasure. trump has resigned himself, however, to the fact that this is going to go forward, that he will be impeached by the house, although he hates the idea. and that it will go on to the senate. and it's his view and mcconnell's, and they've talked about this, that this will actually ultimately be a
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political boon for the president. >> robert, the chief justice who will be presiding over this hearing, how might the chief justice and mitch mcconnell butt heads, if you will, in a way? >> i don't think there's going to be as much conflict between the two of them. just going back to this point about whether there will be rules in place, i think it's in neither party's interest to start the proceedings without? rules laid out in advance. and as a result the last time we went through this as a country those rules were set down in advance. and so the easiest thing would be to go back to that template that was used during the clinton impeachment trial as a kind of a default. and i imagine that if they can't get agreement in advance on something else that someone will make a move to sort of go back to that as a default. i think those are very fair to both sides and can set things
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up. now, you mentioned the chief justice's role. it's kind of interesting. he steps in and presides over the proceedings, but unlike a typical judge he won't have the final say over evidentiary rulings. he won't even have the final say over requests for subpoenas. any single senator, at least if we go by the rules established last time, can make such a request and then call for a vote. and it will just take 51 votes to either uphold what the chief justice has ruled or to overturn it. >> jonathan, the other major character, we played some of what he has said recently, senator linds cy graham, who chairs the judiciary committee in the senate. what's his role going to be? >> i think his role is mostly going to be to shape the debate outside the senate. most of these senators, in fact all these senators, are going to be largely quiet on the senate floor. certainly you can expect him to carry some water for the president in terms of any motions on the floor.
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but this is somebody who's going to try to shape the public narrative. it's something that he did during the clinton impeachment back 20 years ago. it's something that he has been trying to do for president trump since running against president trump for president in 2016 as he's become one of his chief advocates on capitol hill. so you can expect to see him running to cameras mostly. >> most of the time. anne gearn, your thoughts. one minute to you. >> i agree with jonathan that i think for lindsey graham that his main role will be to be the prosecutor outside the courtroom. he was a prosecutor in his previous life. he's a lawyer. he understands exactly what is happening here and he would be able to convey it in politically advantageous terms for the president in the hallway. >> robert tsai, 30 seconds. and we're looking toward monday. what's the one thing to be watching for chairman nadler and what he's going to be doing with the -- again the lawyers that
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will be coming to give their testimony? >> well, i think that this week what we're sort of trying to figure out and watchful for is how many articles of impeachment the judiciary ultimately lays out. and when you read the report that just came out today it does look like there's going to be a big decision as to whether there's going to be a separate count for bribery and abuse of power and also a question about what to do with the mueller report and then finally a question of whether to expand it to include things like corruption, which is mentioned repeatedly throughout this document. >> so a lot of possibilities certainly. robert tsai, anne gearan, jonathan allen, thank you so much. >> thanks, richard. >> you got it. that wraps it up for me this hour. i'm richard lui. our coverage continues right after the break. after the break. cologuard:
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tonight on a special edition of "all in." >> they gave the server to crowdstrike. >> a president being impeached for his pursuit of a conspiracy theory will not defend himself in the house. >> are you sure they gave it to ukraine? >> well, that's what the word is. >> tonight how donald trump has managed to separate his entire party from reality. and congressman ted lieu and senator mazie hirono, what happens next. plus new alarms over rudy giuliani's trip to ukraine. >> that's a question between rudy and the president. >> and former congresswoman katie hill on why she's speaking out just weeks after her resignation. >> hiding away and disappearing would be the one unforgivable