go back -- on, that's not a good look. >> let me ask but that for your >> bernie does not like to preference of the just for preference and context of the anxious questions. you're saying this is one of the worst examples. you served at a high level under >> thank you all. the bush senior administration. we'll be back tworm more "meet do you see this as worse than any meddling exposed in the last the press daily." "the beat" with ari nemelb. two or three administrations? when you say worst, help us understand what you mean. bill barr rebuking trump. >> what i'm will focused on is the whole pattern of conduct major news here from what can only be described as a besieged he's engaktd in since he came. attorney general of the united states. bill barr for the first time in it involves intervening out now, you may have heard this of usual course to protect just briefly. donald trump have the first it broke as we were coming on example that we all remember was when he went before, he wrote the air. he is claiming to disagree the letter and went before the president trump. let me get into it. cameras to say that the mueller this is a rare new interview. report didn't have any evidence it comes as the embattled of obstruction. attorney general is taking heat or didn't show a persuasive case for siding with trump in this of obstruction. that was his publicity of it. very controversial way, politically intervening in the then what came out, indeed, it case of convicted trump aide roger stone and many say, contained powerful evidence. blatant politicizing the we heard his comments trying to department of justice. we'll break down what he is doing and why you can't really overrule the decision of the take it at face value. inspector general horwitz who

i'll show you the evidence. let's take a look here. mr. barr claiming what you need came in with the fbi to focus on are the words. investigation. he found it was properly >> public statements and tweets predicated and there was no bias. immediately bill barr and his made about the department. appointed prosecutor mr. durham came out and. about our people in the we disagree with that. department. our men and women here. we have the whole pattern of his about cases pending in the conduct commenting on the fbi department. and about judges before whom we spying back before the investigation welcome consummated. >> since you mention that, let have cases. me play some of the spying and make it impossible for me to do the other comments he's made my job. >> that's the attorney general against back drop of him knowing of the united states appearing to criticize his boss. better. his own statement. something mr. barr almost never you don't do this. does. and i can tell you, we've never seen him do anything like this >> i think spying did occur. on this high stakes of an issue. yes. it is the left that is engaged donald trump's own convicted in the systematic shredding of roger stone. norms, and undermining the rule saying the president of the united states makes it impossible to do your job sounds of law. like criticism. but then we see that he says the the evidence developed is not sufficient to establish that the president committed an noise the president makes undercuts him. >> i'm not going to be bullied obstruction of justice offense. >> when you look at all that,

or influenced by anybody. and he should not better, given and i said, whether it is congress, the newspaper, editorial boards or the his experience, what do you make president. i'm going to do what i think is of what he is doing? and do you think he is still fit right. for this office? and the, i think the, i cannot >> i don't think he is fit for do my job here at the department the office. i think what he has done is to undertake a campaign to undermine the department of with constant background commentary that undercuts me. justice as it was reformed and as we've lived with for the last >> the question is, what is mr. barr doing right now? it's pretty clear that he is 45 years. responding to what has been at that time, the attorney general essentially coined of widespread criticism after being gave instructions and fought skornged by even his own allies. through process by which the the justice department, justice department, given the power that it has, needs to bend president george w. bush's assistant attorney general, who over backwards to establish was previously defended barr but public trust and what it is is now calling on him to doing. outright quit unless he can better prevent and resist donald so you have the process of trump's political commands to separating the political forces. the justice department. certainly in the criminal area. on top of that, democratic leaders condemning donald you have processes of review. trump's attacks on the judge who

will ultimately sentence stone. i think as was true with these >> a.g. barr has deeply damaged sentencing recommendations, they the rule of law by withdrawing went thank you process. they went forward. the doj sentencing they followed guidelines. recommendation. what a sad disappointment to our whatever people think of them, country. >> the nation now looks again to heavy or not heavy, the guidelines were put in place to try to make sentencing fair and chief justice roberts to make uniform. clear to president trump that and all of. these attacks are unacceptable. got reviewed and all of a sudden, at the time the >> that's just some of the president speaks up, mr. barr condemnation from top democrats. steps in. the problem is, that we're let's be clear mr. barr has not losing an ability to have changed a thing about the confidence that the department intervention in roger stone's is not going to be influenced by case. he has not changed the results, improper forces. the substance. when you think about someone goes easy on someone because it is news worthy but he is only they're the president's friend. what about the problem of going doing so about the tweets. you might paraphrase mr. trump hard on someone because they're his enemy? as sayinl e political intervent >> right. and what happened in the back drop of the president having in the justice department that publicly demanded investigations even my own conservative colleagues say is wrong. of his rivals and where his democracy is at and who will i just wish donald trump wasn't speak up and you being someone who worked for mr. barr. tweeting about what we were up we appreciate your

straightforward analysis to. tonight. the donald trump said, it was thank you, sir. i'm going to bring in maya wily. the disgraced and disbarred we're running over on time, my mafia lawyer so known for producers tell me. i want to hear your reaction breaking rules. and critics say that's what he's briefly he has known barr a long getting with bill barr who is time it is always harder to go now interfering to change the criminal case, the way it will after the people you were be resolved with one of donald professional he colleagues with. trump's allies. what do you make of him? >> i think it speaks to the it is not clear if what he's danger of the times we're in. doing cuts against all rules, and that i think what was so norms and requirements at the justice department. important about what mr. ayers i give you bill barr in 2001 said, i completely agree with explaining the justice department is special and this. different. you don't mess around with it. when justice isn't blind, it's you don't intervene. you don't interfere. broken. and bill barr is helping to break it. bill barr has been busted, >> maya wiley gets last word in according the many experts and critics for intervening and this segment. coming up, donald trump's purge and the illegal order coming for interfearing. siding with trump, intervening to the degree they quit in ukraine. a special report on keys to understanding the next debate and why there is so much apparent protest it is being intrigue about what the supported widely by mr. bar. democratic party is doing. what donald trumped us,

now under pressure, he has to do including me and my colleague, something. to save himself, he is trying to, a to you problem is the we'll show it touf you. tweets. don't lose your eye on the ball and later, i am joined by my of what is actually happening. barr backing the same results. colleague, chris matthews, and i can't say that enough. the legendary debbie harry right that's what this is all about. we begin with former federal here on "the beat." ry right here on "the beat. (janine) i used to be a little cranky. prosecutor maya wily. i wanted to speak with you first. as is so often the case trying to cover these stories, both can be true. mr. barr is trying to say he's criticizing his boss cherks almost never does. yet i put to you, does any of this change mr. barr's approach to intervening in the stone case? >> nope. dealing with our finances really haunted me. thankfully, i got quickbooks, >> i'll say it even more and a live bookkeeper's helping customize it for our business. pointedly, bill barr is battling blame. he's not battling for justice. (live bookkeeper) you're all set up! (janine) great! (vo) get set up right with a live bookkeeper

with intuit quickbooks. remember that we're talking about roger stone. ♪ who not only lied under oath. he threatened a witness. so he intervenes in what line ♪ attorneys, the attorneys who handle the case from beginning to end, assessed in terms of ♪ what they thought roger stone key served. now donald trump tweets, and everything your trip needs bill barr sees the tweet. for everyone you love. it came after we had already expedia. made the decision to intervene. the question becomes why now is the tweeting so bad? because you know, donald trump tweeted when roger stone was on trial. i don't recall bill barr being upset about that. we've had a number of tweets from donald trump that i don't recall bill barr being upset about. >> you're making a great point. there is nothing new about donald trump rage tweeting in

ways that can undermine the rule of law. you're pointing out, this is something where mr. barr was a fidelity has zero commissions for online u.s. equity trades and etfs, plus zero minimums to open a brokerage account. very smart person some of the with value like this, call him diabolical. there are zero reasons to invest anywhere else. he sat down and brain stormed fidelity. all of this and this is the best thing a smart person could come out with. anyone who follows news knows, this ain't new. >> it isn't even new for him to attack justice department by tweet. bill barr didn't stand upthe fb mueller when he said yeah, i can understand why donald trump is tweeting that it is a witch hunt. he certainly didn't stand up for the fbi and did he stand up for conspiracy theories. >> so let's dig in deeper. i am so glad you're our guest to kick this off. mr. barr. something in his confirmation hearing under oath. to say it would be inoperative.

he claimed he had no pressure from the president to make any there are zero reasons to invest anywhere else. [ fast-paced drumming ] political allegiances to do what the doj is accused of. this is important because the tweet if anything bothers people who say, now we're busted. if it is private, you can debate it. if it is public, everyone saw that he demand special treatment for his friend roger stone who is a convicted felon now. >> president trump has sought no promises from me of any kind, either express or implied, and i have not given him any. my allegiance will be to the rule of law, the constitution and the american people. >> so the only thing te'o say to that is, senator kamala harris. when she asked him, has anyone from the white house asked you to open investigations or start the breaking news tonight, bill barr standing by his investigations? the word suggest came up and intervention to help roger stone

while also criticizing donald bill barr said, i'm struggling trump's tweets. with the word suggest. he claims donald trump has made it impossible for him to do his job and this comes as donald trump has, of course, been a really difficult word for an successful getting the doj to intelligent person to define. help roger stone and it has been suggest. so what we know is, he says what sparking the protest he needs to say when he needs to resignations from prosecutors. say it to help himself for >> i don't think they quit the donald trump. case. i think what they do is they and today it is himself. felt they got caught. you want to know the truthful i don't think they quit for moral >> really, really important, and reasons. i think they got caught in the act by me. >> now, new york types also as a prosecutor, i am happy to reporting, federal prosecutors have you. concerned about where this all i have a special guest, donald goes. trump has attacked a roger stone ayre. he's known donald trump for more juror that is an american citizen, alleging without than had two decades. evidence, significant bias, she had simply said in public that if he was under george w. bush. she thought the prosecutors who we are excited to have you. attorney general barr overruled you're a seasoned veteran. thanks for being on "the beat" had acted with integrity. tonight. >> thank you. good to be here. i want to bring in eugene >> on the substance, what do you robinson from the "washington think of what mr. barr is saying post." and what he is, at the same good to see you. >> good to be here. >> we heard from very seasoned time, doing in this case that

touches so closely to the lawyers first. for the bigger picture, we turn president? to you of this is both about the >> i think the two of you have justice department but it is also after impeachment, after nailed the point that nothing he senate acquittal, it is about what is happening in trump's says changes anything. we need to take a couple steps america. your view, big picture. back and focus not just on the >> so attorney general barr's recent events but to focus on statements today. this administration and this the whole pattern of events that president operate in really, in he's engage in the since he came two different realms, right? in as attorney general. we're coming up tomorrow on the there is universe of reality and anniversary of his term as you and your esteemed panel were attorney general. right to point pout nothing barr this is probably one of the said today changes what did he. worst exams of interfering. he did not recommend that all the sentencing guidelines be by clear but if you changed nationwide for the crimes that roger stone was convicted of by a jury. he didn't do that. he recommended that a lighter sentence be given to donald trump's long time friend and crony. and that's the reality. but there is also the universe of reality television. and in that universe, which

president trump cares a lot about. it is not done that someone who works for president trump publicly in a television interview, cause him out and says, you know, stop doing this. you are making it impossible for me to do my job. which basically sounds like threat. look, you keep doing this, i'm going to quit. trump has never reacted well to that sort of chastisement in public. especially on television. so it will be fascinating to see. it is there's a statement out from stephanie grisham at the white house saying of course the president wasn't bothered. >> you nailed it. the publicist's statement here doesn't matter. as you say, and we've tried to lead with the substance, to echo you, bill barr didn't come out and say since we went light order roger stone, wee change the sentencing requirements for

black or brown people hit with sentences around the country. or we'll look again at the stone case and maybe not intervene the way we did because we've been blasted so much. he didn't do anything substantive of even nonsubstantive, he has not shown the ability to handle it. and i want to play something really interesting for your big picture reaction. an interview that has gotten less attention where donald trump muses about the difference between sessions and barr, saying this before the criticism today. >> my life would have been a lot easier but i might have been less popular. they say they like that i fought it. they like that i won. they like, my base is much more energized. bill barr is a very good man doing a very good job but my life would have been much easier. >> well, his life would have been easier but the country

would have been in greater peril. >> i covered south america at a time when big nations down there were just coming back from military dictatorship. trying reestablish democracy. and one of the big problems was that justice was perceived as being politicized. and once you lose faith in blind justice, it is very, very hard to get it back. and what it gives rise to, it is like a corrosive, corrupting influence on the whole society. it encourages conspiracy theories, conspiratorial thinking. it makes everybody think, gee, i should be on the take. i should be cutting every corner, getting every advantage. that's the way the world works. when you don't have the justice system that you can have faith in. and believe me, we do not want

to go down that path. and we are closer to going down that path in my lifetime and it really, really worries me. >> you just said in your lifetime. we heard from mr. ayers can earlier who knows mr. barr. he said it is some of the worst he's seen in his life time. it is important to shine a light. gene red crosobinson, thank you. i have a special report on that you'll want to see about this upcoming debate and heat on the democratic party. e and heat on democratic party if you've been dreaming about tender wild-caught lobster, dig in to butter-poached, fire-roasted and shrimp & lobster linguini. see? dreams do come true. or if you like a taste of new england without leaving home, try lobster, sautéed with crab, jumbo shrimp and more, or maybe you'd like to experience the ultimate surf and the ultimate turf... with so many lobster dishes, there's something for every lobster fan so hurry in and let's lobsterfest. or get pick up or delivery at redlobster.com

welcome back. to something different, our special report on development that's could shape who is the ultimate democratic nominee to run against trump. how much people have been running for this democratic presidential nomination? about 28, if you count them all up. it does feel like the number of contenders is fewer. that's because even before the first votes have started being cast, voters often see the real contender candidates as those who make the debate stage. that makes essential. if you're not top seven in last being's debate, how seriously should voters take you? that number has just fallen to six since friday with andrew yang dropping out. even if you're pretty well known or have a lot of money, the debate stage can make a big difference. billionaire the ross perot said

he didn't think it made a difference but it made all the difference for his insurgent campaign. >> do you think you'll be included in the debates? >> i could care less. >> would you like to be in. >> i would love to of the. >> ross perot has been invited to join in. >> why should you be in the debate if you're running only 5% of the polls? >> because we met all the objective criteria of the debate commission. we were in the campaign last time and we were included in the debates. >> so what makes the objective criteria? in the primaries, the party decides. so while different media outlets rotate in broadcasting these debates, it is tonight democratic party that sets the criteria for who is in them. these can be make or break. this cycle, the dnc made rules, the candidates must meet a polling threshold or draw grassroots fundraising from 65,000 people. now, why make those donations a

requirement at all? the dnc chairman said last year, the requirement tests candidates on proving their national appeal as an opportunity for people who don't have the national name i.d. to get on the debate stage. he went on, if you want to win the presidency, you have to connect with grassroots america. here is how perez pitched it. >> 18 months out from an election, if the only path way to a debate stage is polling, we thought that was potentially unfair. so i think the grassroots fundraising pathway is a very viable pathway. it is important to empower the grassroots. >> all right. it's not like millionaire bundling here. we know in the past, candidates like barack obama showed early enthusiasm those grassroots. some candidates do better than others under this year's rules.

cory booker found himself boxed out of the debate because he couldn't meet all the dnc requirements. his campaign argued those requirements had quickened him leaving the race. had the children pushed back of the he said he was a fan of booker but the fans are disappointed booker hasn't qualified, then when they anxious the phone to pollsters, they need to express their preference for cory booker. and we know people often complain more about the ruse or the cause on the feed. here's why i'm telling you all this tonight. the story tonight is about whether it is fair for the democratic party to change the rules in the middle? before anyone decides who this rule change helps, who it might hurt. let's answer the question. no. it's not fair to change the rules in the middle. that would be true if it was government changing the voting

laws in the middle or either political party or any party in the middle of a primary. and i think that's obviously pretty clear from a position of fairness but before you get to the concerns about iowa or the 2016 primary or anything else. here we are in the heart of the primary after campaigns built strategies, trying to make it under the ruse. and plenty of candidates have dropped out now that they've made it to the debate stage the. the new rules say candidates cannot, now make the debate stage by meeting thresholds for delegates or polling. new rules. middle of the game. now, democrats who love one candidate may only be interested in how that affects that person. this is still politics. team sport. who are you rooting for? i'm also telling you, this is a

larger democracy question for a democratic party which says in its platform, and it is campaigning this year, it stands for transparency and voting rights and. so far five qualify for the next debate. only three have passed the polling requirement. but the dnc is opening the lane for a sixth candidate. and he is a big one. former new york governor mike bloomberg. under the original rules, he wouldn't make this debate but now co-make future democratic debates. it is early. he hasn't yet qualified but he's close. he needs one more poll to put him at 10ers and the dnc is now catching fire. >> so instead of trying get a more diverse group of candidates, they changed the

rules for michael bloomberg. that seems to me to be wrong. >> the dnc holding their own pre primary process deciding which candidates they want voters to hear from and then changing the rules for billionaire michael bloomberg to come in and take debate stage. he's worth $55 billion. i guess if you're worth $55 billion, you can get the ruse changed for a debate. >> so here's what we know. the dnc made debate rules and stood by them even as they helped potentially eliminate some of the top democratic candidates. u.s. senators. the dnc said the ruse were fair because they tested grassroots support. then dnc changed the rules mid stream in a way that could only add one person. the donor threshold was appropriate for the opening stages of the race when there were no metrics available outside of polling to

distinguish those he making progress from those who were not. but if that was the whole story, they could have factor that had into the original rules. it is hard to see why postgame should count more now than it did before. i tonight to be fair. i've heard from operatives that s say, we've heard from other operative who's say if michael bloomberg wants to win the party no, ma'am administration, he has to be on that debate stage to be seen as finalist for it to help him. either way, we are living through a time when our democracy is being tesd. no vetting for fair know. as for the democratic cheryl. is it fair? the is it fair to change the

rules mid stream some just ask tom. >> we made the ruse. they're very transparent and inclusive west can't change the rules mid stream because there's a candidate i wish were on but didn't make the debate stage. didn't make the debate stage score extra savings on mattresses from tempurpedic, serta, beautyrest and sealy, starting at just $399! kick back and relax while we do all the heavy lifting. because every single mattress ships free! you don't want to snooze on these deals. shop now through february 24th. only at wayfair.com. she is on her way to our house. what? i got it. alexa, start roomba. the lexus es. eagerly prepared for the unexpected. lease the 2020 es 350 for $389 a month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer.

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i believe that the president has learned from this case. >> what do you believe the president has learned? >> the president has been impeached. that's a pretty big lesson. >> republican senator susan collins. that was just last week arguing president trump has learned his lessons. here's what the president just said about that of the. >> what lessons did you learn >> that the democrats crooked. they've got they shouldn't havet

impeachment. >> we turn now to former republican party chairman and msnbc analyst michael steel. learning lessons. >> the president hasn't learned jack. i don't know where these people get this stuff. donald trump has never exhibited any behavior that would indicate that he would learn from anything anyone else had to say or do. he is his own enterprise. and he knew from the beginning how he wanted this to play out. he's played it out that way. with the help of a very malleable republican senate. and with democrats who made missteps along the way. and so the lesson that has to be learned for the rest us is not about teaching donald trump anything. it is what do we learn from this as we get ready for the next seven months of this campaign? >> wow!

i feel that. i didn't know what you were going to say but i feel what you're saying. you must learn. if the clearly, we need to take in your view, senator collins' bizarre idut it to the body politics in society. how do you do that? >> well, you do it in a number of ways of the one, just by using your own eyes and ears. and then applying your brain kres to what you see and you hear. and then, gosh, there is a process there where the rest of those things that your in. and you go, well, that's just not good behavior. that's not something i want my children to learn. this is not the way our government should learn. >> you're saying cognitive thinking. i got i from my mama. >> i like it of the. >> let me show you pushback from lisa mcconnell.

our beat team found letters in alaska, a known conservative state, complaining in the anchorage daily news about people like senator the murkowski. others saying straight up, straightforward alaska language, god help our nation for this lack of moral courage. what do you as someone who knows these states, a red state, obviously, think of that? >> it test you this is where that whole cognitive piece kicks in. folks out there, regardless of what you think in your corner of your tribe, the rest of the community around you has an opinion, a thought, an idea about what is happening and they are not disinclined to share it. and so when you see these headlines, and when people have objectively observed and internalized the last three and a half years, they're going to come back to you with what their

expectations are and what their fears are, what their concerns are. in fact, that's what donald trump did in 2016. he took that internalized fear and those concerns and he tapped into them. the body politics including the media was either ignorant of then or didn't take then very seriously. so that fed that narrative. so we know that now. we've learned from that. and the question is, what is the body politic? whether it is center left, center right, whatever it happens to be of what does the media now do in taking lesson from what donald trump has already taught us, because you know what is coming next is going to just take what we've already seen to a whole other level of education. well, do you want to wait for that education? or do you want to use the toos in front of you, the ballot box, and your voice, to take country in a different direction? >> i appreciate it.

you've been there. you know these issues. you're smart and you're so clear. it is like vitamin water. i appreciate you. >> you've got it. >> thank you. we'll have you back soon, i hopeful when you're free. what you're looking at here is history. living history. a four-year anniversary that is very important and plays into where we're headed. i'll tell you where we stand tonight about that story coming up of will and later, as mentioned. guess who is on the meet with blondie's debbie harry. stick with us. stick with us. cut. liberty biberty- cut. we'll dub it. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ you wanna see something thatamazing?ing. go to hilton instead of a travel site and you'll experience a whole new range of emotions like... the relaxing feeling of knowing you're getting the best price. these'll work. the utter delight of free wi-fi... .

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if you're into politics, this year's election series may have you wondering, where were you four years ago? as sanders and clinton were battling it out. that 2016 race turned on many things. many unpredictable including the sudden death of justice scalia which was exactly four years ago today. >> we join you as antonin scalia has died. >> he died sometime last night while in texas at a guest ranch. this is a big shock. he was in apparently robust health. >> americans are working up to a huge story. the passing of justice scalia who is being remembered for his brilliant legal mind and fiery style on the bench. >> the political reaction was

faster than any other death of a public official. there was an rnc primary event that night. the candidates were weighing in and they were still seen by many republicans as a long shot, but donald trump had his names ready. >> first, the death of justice scalia and the vacancy that leaves on the supreme court. >> he will go down as one of the great justices in the history of this republic. you talk about someone who defended consistently the original meaning of the constitution. >> we could have a diane sikes or a bill pryor. >> it needs to be someone with giant. >> no one knew that night that mitch mcconnell would take that seat hostage, important trump would win and benefit from that maneuver which had never been done quite like that before. now, donald trump did not ultimately nominate either name he offered that night. judges die yandle sikes or bill pryor. but actually, as the history unfolds, i can tell you i was

anchoring special debate coverage. we asked for details about why donald trump clald to favor those particular judges. >> you had the first question out of the gate when everybody is talking about the news of justice scalia's death. you mentioned a couple of names that you would pick. i believe dan sykes -- >> diane sykes. very, very, a wonderful woman from everything i know, she's very conservative. highly thought of, from wisconsin and i think she would be a good choice. i would have to vet diane sykes. she's a federal judge. the perfect would be somebody as close to justice scalia as we could find. >> one more question -- >> can you tell me -- >> one more for you. >> what does he like about judge sykes and judge pryor? >> ari melber is our anchor here. >> i know. >> he has a deep legal

background. what is it specifically that you like about judge sykes and judge pryor? >> a tremendous record, a very conservative record, highly respected, great intellect, all the things you need to have a great supreme court justice. >> thank you much. back to you. >> thank you. >> thank you for joining us, as we say. you heard the standard. very conservative, highly respected. here we are. just four years later, donald trump has put two very conservative conservative officials on the supreme court. and it is a reminder as we follow all these issues how that night was so different than the day before. no one knew what was coming. no one knew what was happening. and no one knew that donald trump was going to win that race and what would come after. a reminder to all of us to keep our eyes on the facts and avoid the predictions. we wanted to share that history capsule with you as the supreme court will surely reverberate in this election. now, when we come back, as promised, what i've been telling you about. two icons, chris matthews and

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time now for a very special edition of "fallback." we are joined by two legends. first music icon debbie harry, a rock and roll hall of famer, lead singer of course the groundbreaking band blondie known for hits like "call me," "heart of glass" and "rapt yoour," a 1980 hit that the "wall street journal" notes was the first major hip-hop hit to not use samples.

she has sold over 40 million albums worldwide. and her new memoir is "face it." and tonight she is paired with a giant of journalism making his fallback debut, chris matthews, host of the longest-running show on msnbc, "hardball," author of six best-selling books, veteran of the carter white house. every chief executive from candidates bush, clinton, ford-o bama, has been in the middle of some memorable lines of questioning in american politics. >> if you're going to ask a question -- >> well, listen -- it takes a few words. >> get out of my face. >> if young to ask me a question, step back and let me answer it. >> senator -- >> you know, i wish we lived in challenge a person to a duel. >> so great to have you together. >> thank you. >> i love it. chris, what in american life, big picture, and politics needs

to fall back? >> we watch our network all day, and i learn a lot from our network. but one thing i learned from these politicians, democrat and republican, left and right, is they all play the same game of half truths. during the fight over impeachment they'd say, well, they eventually got the money. ukraine got the money. that's the half truth. they did eventually get the money. full truth, they got caught. the administration got caught and had to give them the money. both sides played this game. the democrats will say things like, you know, we've got inherent power to subpoena people. we can send the sergeant at arms out and grab anybody we wanted. no, you can't. it may be written somewhere but you can't do something like that. so stop saying it. >> what's on your mind if anything that needs to fall back? >> i'm not sure what fall back means. does that mean surrender or give up or just -- reconvene within yourself? >> i'm glad you asked. you know who's an expert on this? chris matthews. >> it means stop it. it's not working. >> okay. fall back and re-examine. okay. >> i'll give you one of mine.

people out to dinner together on their phones. >> i hate it. >> i think that needs to fall back. >> whole family, four people, all with their own phones. all talking -- >> have you ever seen such a thing? >> oh, absolutely. and that's when i know the party's over, when the phone comes out. say oh, well, that's it. >> and if i may, my understanding is you know how to party. now people are saying things are wavy. have you heard this? >> mm. >> wavy is good. >> that's good? >> wavy's good. yeah. you know what slang word has really survived? >> yeah. >> cool. didn't people say cool in the '70s? >> yeah. >> and the '80s. we still say cool. >> but neat didn't make it. >> neat did not make it. no. >> do you think neat will be back? i keep thinking about cool. obama was cool. sinatra was cool. i think weoo means. like you're unruffled. you go through anything. you don't get you're like cool in every kind of way. >> so debbie, this is good. did you think of yourself as cool when you were doing this

punk stuff, new rorck, hip-hop, or you were just doing your thing, you didn't care if it was cool? >> well, i liked cool because i wanted to be a beatnik. >> okay. >> so i sort of knew i aspired to cool. >> what advice would you give to young people? >> oh, god. i think basically, you know, just be committed to what you want to do. and like you say, hold on to yourself. it's complicated. but if you have your core of your creativity, which is what i have to rely on, that's really where it counts. >> you know, when john huston, the great director, was old and he had -- he's got an oxygen mask on and he was on dick cavett one night, which was very popular. and cavett said to him, what keeps you going? and he said, interest. that was the best line i've ever heard. i'm interested. i think interest is everything. and you can't fake it. you're either interested or not. in the person, interested in the person.

or you're not. you can't fake that. you cannot pretend to care about a topic. i'm gifted that i've always been interested in politics. >> sometimes the people who are deeply interested in others are also the most interesting to learn from. thank you so much for being here. >> oh, thank you. >> you can tell i'm wrapping it up. >> thank you. >> chris matthews -- >> you're a great lead-in as we say in our business. love your lead-in. he's right before me. >> and he might be working on a memoir too. so he can get tips from you. my special thanks to debbie harry and chris matthews. again, go out and get the book. it is "face it." barr to trump, stay off my lawn. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews. in washington in an extraordinary move today

attorney general william barr is standing up to president trump. late today barr hit back at his boss saying the president is making his job impossible. with his public nosing into justice department business. barr had been derided for his interventionnd