tv The Rachel Maddow Show MSNBC July 17, 2020 9:00pm-10:00pm PDT
which really abuts at lafayette square after all of that violence, all of those federal forces marching on, beating on, firing gas upon peaceful protesters. and of course john lewis knows something of peaceful protests. it is really remarkable that he was there. he lived to see three words in yellow on black pavement visible from space, and it will probably be said visible from heaven. they read out "black lives matter." our hour-long look at the life and times of john lewis begins now. in my younger days, i got arrested and went to jail 40 times. i've since been in congress another five times. and i may get arrested and go to
jail again. >> he's an icon of a civil rights movement. >> they found the power of the human spirit in john lewis, and he came to symbolize the student movement. >> he believed that he could help a country find its soul. >> risking death to fight for what's right. >> i did not think john would survive. >> he likes to stir things up. he likes a little drama. >> give us a vote. let us vote. >> john lewis is not popularity. he's about purpose. >> never give up. never give in. >> the 17-term congressman faces a new foe, vowing to battle cancer with the same courage he's used to fight for civil rights. his commitment through the years paved the way for a new generation. >> barack obama does not become president of the united states without a john lewis. >> john lewis led them on a
mission to change america. >> our country will never, ever be the same because of what happened on this bridge. ♪ >> what do we do? >> stand up, fight back. >> when activists turned out to protest the trump administration's separation of migrant children from their parents in june 2018, congressman john lewis was there. >> now, i'm sick and tired, sick and tired of what has happened to our children, to our babies. they've been taken from their mothers, from their fathers, separated. that's painful. it's a violation of human rights. >> that's right. >> it is. >> and none of us who live on
this little piece of real estate we call america can be happy or satisfied. >> that's right. >> we have to do something. so we are prepared to take some action here and now. let's do it! >> you feel like you've been placed here for a reason. you have to disturb the order of things. >> one expression that he uses i love. he says that we have to make good trouble. >> lewis first came up with the phrase as a child in pike county, alabama. >> i didn't like segregation and racial discrimination. i didn't like the signs that said "white waiting," "colored waiting," white men, colored men. so i would come home and ask my mother, my father, my grandparents why, and they would say, that's the way it is, boy. don't get in the way. don't get in trouble. >> born to sharecroppers in 1940, john robert lewis was one of ten siblings growing up in the fields of cotton country.
as a teenager, he was inspired by the montgomery bus boycott and the sermons of dr. martin luther king jr. on the radio. >> as long as you sit in the back, you have a false sense of infer ority, and so long as you let the white man sit in the front and put you back there, he has a faults sense of super i don't rememberity. >> lewis challenges segregation laws in his own tourn town. >> we went to the public library trying to get a library card and check out some books. we were told by the librarian that the library is for whites only and not for coloraed. >> he received a work study scholarship to american baptist theological seminary in nashville and arrived in 1957. >> john has always had a genuine smile even on a kind of
boyishness about him that has made him charming. >> he was a person who was easy to talk to and was always interested in social issues. >> lewis wanted to join the students beginning to interest dwrat schools across the suggest. his target, all white troy university. he wrote to dr. king for help. king's deputies sent him a bus ticket to visit montgomery in the spring of 1958 when he was just 18 years old. >> and dr. king said, are you the boy from troy? are you john lewis? and i said, dr. king, i am john robert lieu iewis. i gave 450i whole name. he still called me the boy from troy. >> dr. king told the boy from troy that he would need his parents' permission to take on troy state. but they were afraid of the consequences and refused.
as lewis returned to nashville, he was determined to do something. and then he met the second role model who would change his life. >> jim lawson enrolled at vanderbilt divinity school. >> this unbelievable young man taught us a philosophy. and he kept say respect the dignity and the worth of every human being, even if someone beat you, throw you in jail. look them in the eye and respect them. >> lawson's group began sit-ins at lunch counters in downtown na nashville in early 1960. lewis and the other students filled the counters, tried to order food and took whatever abuse was hurled at them. when the 20-year-old lewis was arrested for the first time in february 1960, his parents were shocked. >> a lot of people of color at that time, they were afraid of what was going to happen.
he could die. they could lose the land or any number of terrible consequences. >> but lewis and the other students continued their sit-ins. and after months of protests, the politicians and business leaders in nashville agreed to desegregate lunch counters in may 1960. >> we all applauded, and here was the situation that turned out, right? >> with that success, john lewis was even more inspired to take on jim crow laws that segregated people by race and denied basic rights to african-americans. >> there were many meetings when he would come into the meeting with bandages on his head. he had been in demonstrations and had been beaten. he was determined, though. he never let that stop him. i think you would have had to literally have killed him to have stopped him.
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i could no longer be satisfied or go along with an evil system. >> fresh from the student sit-ins in nashville, john lewis found a new way to contribute to the civil rights movement in 1961. a group called the conversz of racial equality or core, put out a call for volunteers to ride buses headed into the jim crow south. traveling together would surely put them all in danger. >> they both applied to go on the original freedom rides. john was accepted because he was 21. i asked my father if i could go. he said do you think i'm going to sign your death warrant? >> despite that warning, lewis
went ahead as one of the original group of 13 freedom riders. they set out from washington, d.c. in may 1961 and were soon met by violence. lewis and another man were viciously beaten in rock hill, south carolina. a few days later, a group of riders was attacked in birmingham. another bus was fire bombed in aniston, alabama. core canceled the freedom rides. they were just too dangerous. lewis and the other nashville students disagreed with the decision. >> it was right at the heart of what they'd been talking about at all of their workshops. we can't let violence stop the movement. we've got to be willing to make whatever sacrifice it takes. >> the nashville student group decided to continue the freedom rides themselves. if the adults refused to ride, the students still would. >> i remember several conversations with the department of justice, and they
told me i just didn't understand that somebody would get killed. and i said, i understand, and all of them understand as well. several of the students who were about to get on the bus gave me sealed envelopes that i was to mail in the event of their death. >> they knew how dangerous it was, but they were not afraid. they came prepared to face down the dangers with the power of their souls. >> despite the violence, john lewis got back on a bus to alabama as one of the new group of student freedom riders. >> they were supposed to have had protection, federal protection. but when we got to montgomery, they disappeared, and we were left in the hands of a mob. i mean it was terrible. that's when john lewis was beatbea
beaten. >> the riders kept going, this time with federal guards. eventually they made it to the dark heart of the south, jackson, mississippi. there lewis and the others were arrested for breach of the peace and sent to mississippi's infamous parchman prison. >> it really was like going back into the, you know, antebellum plantation. it's a plantation prison. it was a rough experience. >> more students continued to join the freedom rides, and by the end of the summer, hundreds of those riders filled parchman and other mississippi jails. >> it bonded them. they said, we went in there 100 little movements on campuses, and we came out one big movement and we knew each other. >> the people should expect to get beaten. they should expect to spend in jail. >> that national movement was called the student nonviolent coordinating committee. when the group's chairman resigned in the summer of 1963,
the organization turned to john lewis. with his country accent and lack of formal education, some saw him as an unlikely choice. >> they needed a chairman who had fought, who had bled, who had been to jail, who had suffered through every indignity that they were then asking the people in the field to suffer through. >> they found the power of the human spirit in john lewis, and he came to symbolize the student movement. >> almost immediately, lewis was tapped to represent snic at the march on washington. at 23, he would be the youngest speaker at the event. but when people in the kennedy administration and more senior civil rights leaders read his planned speech, they said it was too militant. >> at the end of the speech, i said a day may come when we will not confine our marching on washington, but we will be forced to march to the south the
way sherman did nonviolently. >> the image of students as sherman scared the bejesus out of people and they threatened to pull the plug, and the catholic cardinal said i'm not going to introduce if they're going to say something like this. >> dr. king and others came to me and said, john, for the sake of unity, can we make these changes? and i couldn't say no to dr. king. and we made the changes. >> let us not forget that we are involved in a social revolution. >> even with the compromises, john lewis' speech on august 28, 1963, was fierce though often forgotten in the shadow of dr. king's dream. >> we do not want our freedom gradually, but we want to be free now. >> in the years after the march on washington, lewis and snic concentrated on registering black voters. >> and the idea is that we got
more people participating in government and bringing about changes if we got more people registered to vote so they could practice their fundamental rights. >> in mississippi during the summer of 1964, the students tried to register voters with violent repercussions. and in selma, alabama, snic volunteers set up a voter drive but with few successes. >> the board of registrars is not in session this afternoon as you were informed. you came down to make a mockery out of this courthouse, and we're not going to have it. >> in spring 1965, residents turned to dr. king for help. >> we are tired of having registrars refusing to register us and allow us to vote. >> many times snic did a lot of work, but when the media came, it was described as mr. king's work. >> there was always this tendency to want to challenge dr. king's leadership, and john
didn't share that. john wanted to change the world, and he wasn't thinking about credit. >> martin luther king was his hero and his example and model. >> i think they shared a total commitment. there was no moral compromise. they were fearless. >> when king's group organized a protest march from selma to montgomery in march 1965, snic refused to join. but john lewis chose to march anyway at the front of the line. >> we're marching today to demonstrate to the nation that hundreds and thousands of negro citizens of alabama denied the right to vote. >> his nap sack held an apple and a toothbrush. he was ready to go to jail as he had so often before. but he was also prepared for
worse. >> john was always available to risk death. i think it was not that he wanted to die. it was that the basis of his leadership was showing a fearlessness that encouraged others. >> when the marchers crossed the edmund pettus bridge out of town, a line of straight troopers confronted them. >> you're ordered to disperse, go home, or go to your church. >> they refused to turn back. the violence was broadcast on national television. >> america's conscience was seared by what they saw that day, and i think it was a transformational moment in american history because i think that's when the american people said enough's enough. >> two weeks later, the group set out again, then joined by thousands of americans from all
over the country inspired by the cause. president lyndon johnson used the public outrage to motivate his proposal of a voting rights act. in a speech to congress. >> what happened in selma is part of a far larger movement which reaches into every section and state of america. >> the only time i saw martin luther king shed a tear, and i wasn't with john, but i bet you he cried too. >> their cause must be our cause too. >> was when lyndon johnson closed his speech with we shall overcome. >> and we shall overcome. [ applause ] >> coming up -- >> to lose two people that i admired and loved was almost too much. don't just think about where you're headed this summer. think about how you'll get there.
in 1965 helped convince congress to pass the voting rights act, and it secured john lewis' reputation as an icon of the civil rights movement. but that march also signaled a breach between lewis and his group, the student nonviolent coordinating committee. >> i felt at the time that the organization and maybe even the movement was moving in a different direction. >> 14 months after the selma march, a more militant faction ousted lewis as chairman, and the group soon began calling for very different tactics. >> violence is a part of america's culture. it is as american as cherry pie. >> the new rhetoric went against everything in which lewis believed. >> we have been preaching the philosophy and the discipline of non-violence, preaching the sense of being what we called the beloved community, that we're one people, that we're one family. >> after 40 arrests and countless beatings in the name
of the civil rights movement, john lewis left the group he helped to create. but he continued his work in community organizing and voter registration. >> just because he had this disagreement with an organization, it didn't mean that he had to abandon the ideals of the movement. >> he recognized the problem in america, racism and denial and unjust treatment, that he wanted to get the problem solved. >> while working in the south, 27-year-old john lewis was introduced to the woman who would become his wife, lillian miles. >> i said to myself, this young lady is really hip, and i started talking with her. >> she read everything about john's background and respected him tremendously. >> she was a wonderful, beautiful, charming, and she taught me a great deal. >> within a year, the couple was married. lewis also began a new work assignment in 1968, traveling
for robert kennedy's presidential campaign. >> i got to know robert kennedy when he was attorney general. i admired him, and i thought he would be a great president. >> lewis took over the recruitment of black voters for the campaign in several states. >> it was a big deal for robert kennedy, and it was a big deal for john lewis. it marked his transition to politics. >> lewis was at a rally with kennedy on the day his idol, dr. martin luther king jr., was shot. >> martin luther king was shot and was killed tonight in memphis, tennessee. >> just two months later, the nation still reeling from king's death, kennedy won the california primary. lewis was in the candidate's hotel suite waiting while he gave his victory speech. >> my thanks to all of you, and now it's on to chicago, and let's win there. >> next thing, it was announced
on television that he had been shot. >> is there a doctor in the house? >> and we saw the scene of bobby laying on the floor, we all just broke down and just cried really. >> the two assassinations, tragedies nor the face as well as personal losses for john lewis, helped set his future course. >> to lose two people that i admired and loved was almost too much. and later i just said some of us must pick up where dr. king and robert kennedy left off. so if it hadn't been for them, i'm not so sure that i would have got involved in american politics. >> lewis plotted his entry into politics as he continued his voter registration work in the 1970s. >> it is no longer the drama in the streets. it is in washington. it is in city hall and state
capitols around the south and around this country. >> he ran for the fifth congressional district in atlanta in 1977 and lost. he went on to serve on the atlanta city council but continued to eye the fifth district. >> right now it's the highest possibility for a black elected official that would like to move up. >> the seat opened up again in 1986, but there was another sncc veteran running, julian bond, who marched alongside lewis and at the time served in the georgia state legislature. >> they were inseparable. they had collaborated virtually on everything for more than 20 years. >> after a crowded primary, the vote came down to a runoff between the two friends. >> the race was on. each of these men badly wanted this seat, and they were willing to go all out. >> so tell julian bond here i come. >> the runoff divided not just lewis and bond but black atlanta
and veterans of the civil rights movement who knew them both. >> practically every prominent african-american leader in the metropolitan atlanta area was supporting julian bond. john wasn't fazed by it. he was determined to outwork julian. >> he was all over the place, and i think julian kind of thought that he had it made. >> bond challenged lewis to a series of television and radio debates. >> the real issue is which of the two of us, john lewis or julian bond, would make the better legislator. >> julian is so smart, so gifted, spoke so well, and i think he thought that he would outdebate me. >> john was a man who expressed what he believed. he never put on airs. he never pretended. he never tried to please other people. >> if you know anything about me, that i'm not up for sale. my vote cannot be bought.
>> as the debates continued, lewis' team encouraged him to raise an issue from the earlier primary when another candidate had challenged everyone to take a drug test, bond had refused. >> campaign advisers, myself included, had been urging john to issue that challenge to julian. john had resisted. and then julian made some comment that john had abandoned the voters of the city. >> if it walks like a duck, it acts like a duck it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. >> i said, well, mr. bond, i think you're the one doing the ducking. i challenge mr. bond to take a drug test. >> that's okay, john. that's all right. >> the challenge rocked bond's campai campaign, and three days later, john lewis won the runoff by four points. >> i want to thank those folks, those good people who had the courage, the raw courage to
change their votes in the runoff and vote for me. thank you. >> the sense of shock and absolute surprise in atlanta the night that john lewis won that seat is unlike anything i have ever seen. i mean people were stunned. >> for the two friends, the damage was done. >> it was hurtful to him. i think he was hurt by the way that john presented those issues. >> their friendship was the price they paid. >> there's been a real strain put on this relationship between the two of us. but, you know, time is a great healer, and i'm sure in time the wounds will heal. >> later he became very supportive, and our friendship was mended. but he was a good friend. if i had to do it over again, i wouldn't do it. >> coming up -- >> people died for the right to vote, friends of mine, colleagues of mine. e, colleagues of mine
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we're not only our side now. we're legislators. we're politicians trying to use government as an instrument, as a tool to bring about change. >> after a hard-fought campaign, john lewis began his freshman term in congress in january 1987. the 46-year-old was already known for his history in the civil rights movement and wanted to use that influence to become effective in washington. one of his first initiatives was a national museum of african-american history. >> he realized here is a history that is crucial to understanding who we are as americans but is a history that's undervalued, undertaught, and there's not a place to come revel in and understand that history. >> lewis first introduced his bill in 1988 and then again year
after year. >> he's not daunted by long-shot causes. i mean if he thinks that it's right, he's going to stick with it. >> more than a decade later, lewis gained an unexpected ally, kansas senator sam brownback. >> i was praying at st. joseph's church, and i got this idea that we should have a museum, an african-american museum of history and culture. and john lewis had tried for a dozen years and it would get through one house but not the other. >> brownback, one of the more conservative members of the senate, was wary of lewis' history. >> i had a public impression of him, which was pretty fiery. but then when i met with him personally, i found a very thoughtful, enjoyable gentleman that had done a great deal for the country, had a great passion. >> you have people that might not agree on some day to day issues, but they find common purpose. >> the bill to create the museum passed and was signed into law
by president george w. bush in 2003, 15 years after john lewis first proposed it. it took another 13 years for the building to be finished. ♪ the museum opened on the mall in washington in 2016. >> there were some who said it couldn't happen, who said you can't do it. but we did, and we did it. >> through the years, lewis established himself as a force in washington. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. >> a member of the influential ways and means committee. a deputy whip for the democratic party. and as a leader of the congressional black caucus. >> i'm going to change my vote, and i'm going to vote for the rule. >> but his personal life remained in atlanta with his wife lillian. the separation wasn't easy. >> lillian didn't like it and complained a lot about it. and then she finally realized
that he was wed to that work. >> lewis traveled to atlanta weekly to see lillian and their son, john miles. >> john miles looked forward to seeing him come home for the weekends. they would do things together as the boys would do sometimes. >> the couple made the long-distance arrangement work for decades until lillian's death in 2012. atlanta was vital to john lewis, not just as his home but as his political base. >> anything we need from washington, he's got enough friends to get for us. >> lewis built relationships with colleagues across the political spectrum by leading congressional trips to selma and other sites of the civil rights movement. through the faith and politics institute, he traveled with more than 300 politicians over the years. >> when we were going down to those lunch counters, when we were marching -- >> i think he's one of the few people in congress who could
bring people from many different parties together and say, let's spend three days wrestling with the past. only john could do that. >> lewis built on those relationships to support his chosen projects. >> he tries to use the influence that he has, the respect that he commands to advance the causes that he thinks are important and that i think are really all about fairness, justice, and equality. >> and no cause was more important to him than voting rights. >> i happen to believe that the vote is precious. it's almost sacred. it is the most powerful, nonviolent instrument or tool that we have in a democratic society. >> there is a history there with him in terms of ensuring that the '65 voting rights act becomes law. and then in his later life, protecting the gains that were won during the civil rights movement. >> many of those gains lewis helped win were wiped out in 2013 when a stunning decision by the supreme court reversed decades of federal protection
for voters in the south. >> so i think what the court did today is stab the voting rights act of 1965 in its very heart. >> after what i think is probably one of the worst supreme court decisions of the last 50 years, he sprung into action. >> before the ink was even dry, states began to put into force efforts to suppress people's voting rights. >> he had worked towards the passage of that legislation to try to put back in place the structure of the voting rights act. >> we've come too far. we've made too much progress, mr. speaker, and we cannot go back. >> coming up -- >> he's trying to talk directly to young people. he has written a comic book for crying out loud. crying out loud. ighly capable lexus suv at the golden opportunity sales event. lease the 2020 nx 300 for $339 a month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer.
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i'm dealing with friends, people that i love. >> after more than 20 years in congress, john lewis faced a difficult choice in the fall of 2007. barack obama was running for president, and the election of an african-american to the nation's highest office would be the culmination of lewis' life work. but early on, the front-runner in the primary race was hillary clinton. >> the clintons were very supportive of him. when john had birthdays or fund-raisers, president clinton would be there.
he just would want to return the favor. you know, i've got to support the clintons. they've been with me every step of the way. >> the georgia democrats chose obama in their primary in february 2008, lewis reconsidered his position. >> as it looked like it was more of a reality about to happen, i think people said, well, you know what? it's time for you to shift and kind of get on board this train. you've been on the right side of history for virtually everything else. you need to be on the right side of history for this. >> the choice was painful for him, but in the end, lewis gave his full support to the obama campaign. >> i love bill clinton. i love hillary clinton. but something is happening in america. something that's unbelievable. >> i barack hussein obama do solemnly swear -- >> barack obama does not become president of the united states
without a john lewis. >> lewis developed a strong bond with president obama. >> i can kind of tell, you know, when president obama is really listening to somebody, and he really listens to john lewis. >> he is known as the conscience of the united states congress, still speaking his mind on issues of justice and equality. >> despite honors like the 2010 medal of freedom, those who worked with lewis say he wears i had fame lightly. >> in public life, there are a lot of people who seek to get to the front of the room immediately. not john lewis. it's for me pretty astounding. >> first thing that strikes you is his humility. he doesn't come off as this sort of grandiose figure. he comes off as a humble, decent, kind soul. >> part of what makes john humble is that he knows who he is, and he knows that he has sacrificed for the greater good. so what else does he have to prove? >> although he still carries the scars of his days in the movement, lewis is willing to
engage with those who hurt him. >> one of the klans member who beat us in rock hill, south carolina, came to this office many year its later and said, mr. lewis, i've been a member of the klan. and one of the people that beat you, but i want to apologize. will you forgive me? his son started crying. he started crying, and i cried with them. that is the power of the way of peace, the way of love, the power of the philosophy of non-violence. >> thank you, brother. >> good to he soo you. >> he epitomizes what the nonviolent movement is all about. it's about soul force. it's the force of the human spirit. >> as a bridge between the civil rights era and a new generation, lewis found a way to share his experiences when he told his young staffers about a comic book from the movement.
>> this little comic book, martin luther king jr. and the montgomery story sold for 10 cents, and people were arrested in nashville, tennessee, almost every single one of us had a copy on us. >> i started thinking that why isn't there a john lewis comic book? i had never heard the story of sncc. i had never heard the full breadth and depth of john lewis' story. why didn't tell me that i as a young person had so much power? >> he kept saying to me, congressman, you should write a comic book. and i said, oh, maybe. but he wouldn't give up. and i finally said, yes, if you do it with me. >> the first part of their graphic novel, called "march" came out in 2013. wearing an outfit just like the one he wore at the bridge in selma, lewis met his new fans at comic-con. the third book won a national book award in 2016, the first
time a graphic novel had ever won. >> i remember going down to the public library trying to get library cards, and we were told that the library was for whites only and not for coloreds. and to come here and receive this award, this honor, it's too much [ applause ] thank you. >> in another sign of how much he and the nation had come, john lewis celebrated the 50th anniversary of the selma march with an african-american president, retracing those fateful steps over the edmund pettus bridge. >> his nap sack stocked with an apple, a toothbrush, and a book on government, all you need for a night behind bars, john lewis led them out of the church on a mission to change america. >> this city on the banks of the
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demonstration or whatever in a minute because that's where he had his start, and that's still in his blood. >> i tell my colleagues in the congress, do something. you cannot afford to be still. >> congresswoman katherine clark decided to do something after 49 people were killed at the pulse nightclub in orlando in june 2016. she wanted to force a vote on gun control legislation, but the leadership wouldn't allow it. so she turned to lewis for ideas. >> john said in his very quiet way, we have to do something dramatic. and then he paused and said, we have to do a sit-in. and when john lewis recommends that you do a sit-in, the only answer is yes, any way that i can help. >> congressman lewis stepped onto the house floor on june 22nd. >> we're calling on the leadership of the house to bring common sense gun control legislation to the house floor. give us a vote.
let us vote. >> then lewis and his group began an unprecedented sit-in to try and force a vote. >> they are not trying to actually get this done through regular order. no, instead they're staging protests. they're trying to get on tv. >> the chair wishes to make an announcement regarding the decorum in the house chamber. >> the republican leadership shut off c-span to try and block the protesters' access to the public. >> fortunately we had members who picked that up with facebook live, periscope, other social media tools. >> what made it so powerful was that there was an attempt to actually broadcast it to the nation even when c-span wasn't running it. >> lewis and his colleagues kept the protest going for 25 hours. >> and i'm here today to say john lewis, we join you in getting into good trouble on behalf of the american people.
>> we never did get the vote that we wanted, but i think seeing someone like john lewis saying, this issue is important enough for me to stop the business of the house of representati representatives is -- >> john lewis taught me that sometimes you might be powerless to stop -- >> maryanne trump barry ened up retiring early when some of the trump family's financial shenanigans were first exposed by "the new york times." we now know that mary trump was a key source for their reporting, but this conversation took place before that back in 2015 as donald trump's presidential campaign just started to gain traction. and from the vantage point of 2015, it is unbelievable to them that anyone thinks -- >> -- in many ways an introduction to a new generation. >> many of these young people remind me of what we were like
at the age of 18 and 19. and i tell them over and over again -- >> donald announced his run for the presidency on june 16th, 2015 -- i didn't take -- -- said during one of our regular lunches at the time, this will never happen. i agreed. we talked about how his reputation as a faded reality star and failed businessman would doom his run. does anybody even believe the b.s. that he's a self-made man? what has he even accomplished on his own, i asked. well, maryanne said, as dry as the sahara, quote, he has had five bankruptcies. he then continued, we thought the blatant racism on display during donald's announcement speech would be a deal breaker but we were disabused of that idea when jerry falwell and
other white evangelicals started endorsing him. maryanne was incensed. what the f is wrong with them, she said? the only time donald went to church was when the cameras are there. it's mind-boggling. he has no principles, none. so that conversation between you and your aunt, this is in 2015. this is at the time that he's running, and you've talked about the fact that you didn't think it would make a difference for you to speak out at that time that it was running. but i wonder if you, inside your family either with maryanne or other members of your family ever talked together about what you saw as his unfitness for that office, what it might do to the country if he was elected. >> no. we didn't. but i think we all -- or those of us who shared those opinions were at a distinction disadvantage because as members
of the family and as lifelong new yorkers, we had a completely different perspective on donald and his perceived success than people outside of the family and outside of new york did, which we -- you know, i was not aware that outside of new york, he had a completely different although baseless reputation. so at least that early, you know, during the primaries, it really didn't seem necessary to say anything. >> just because it seem sod farfetched that it would ever go anywhe anywhere. that's remarkable. >> so farfetched, so clear that he was nothing he had ever claimed to be. but, again, you know, that's from inside the family and inside of the city that knew him well, not how it played in the
rest of the country. >> just a remarkable piece of that remarkable interview. if you happen to miss rachel's interview, i'm sure there are only six of you, about you if you happened to miss it or you want to see it again, it was rachel herself will be back right here on monday. i will see you monday afternoon at 3:00. now it is the time for "the last word". >> like old times getting to in my younger days, i got arrested and went to jail. he is an icon of the civil rights movement. >> they found the power of the