on america for good. good afternoon. i'm katy tur. it is 11:00 a.m. out west and 2:00 p.m. in washington, where the president could send this country into a constitutional crisis. >> will you commit to making sure that there is a peaceful transferral of power after the election? >> we're going to have to see what happens. you know i have been complaining very strongly about the ballots, and the ballots are a disaster. >> people are rioting. do you commit to making sure that there's a peaceful transferal of power? >> we want to get rid of the ballots and we'll have a very peaceful -- there won't be a transfer, frankly. there will be a continuation. the ballots are out of control. >> no longer just a candidate, now the president of the united states, donald trump, will not commit to a peaceful transfer of

power. meaning he will not commit to accepting the results of the election. let that sink in. the president of the united states will not commit to accepting the results of the election. even the normally i didn't hear what he said republicans admitted they heard this. marco rubio tweeted, as we have done for over two centuries, we will have a legitimate and fair election. it may take longer than usual to know the outcome, but it will be a valid one. >> both steve stivers and liz cheney said, quote, i have taken an oath to support and defend the constitution. and i will uphold that oath. >> and trump ally senator lindsey graham dismissed even the suggestion that there would not be a peaceful transfer. >> people wonder about the peaceful transfer of power. i can assure you, it will be peaceful. now, we may have litigation about who won the election. but the court will decide, and if the republicans lose, we will

accept that result. >> remember that he said litigation. so what would happen if a defeated trump refused to concede? the atlantic's martin gelman writes about that scenario in a new piece titled "the election that could break america." quote, the president is not actually trying to prevent mail-in balloting altogether, which he has no means to do. he is discrediting the practice and starving it of resources. signaling his supporters to vote in person. and preparing the ground for post election night plans to contest the results. it is the strategy of a man who expects to be outvoted and means to hobble the count. mart barton gelman joins me in a moment, but first, let us go to the white house where we expect to see president trump before he leaves for two campaign events in north carolina and florida. joining me is senior white house reporter shannon pettypiece. i know a moment ago, kayleigh mcenany said that the president

will accept a fair and free election. fair is doing a lot of the heavy lifting there, as my colleague chuck todd just said. the president never thinks anything is fair if it does not go his way. and frankly, kayleigh mcenany, no offense to her, she's not the president of thean that is not president said yesterday. >> right. and i will say, she declined to answer the question several times about whether the president would accept the results of the election if he lost, and finally when pressed multiple times said that the president would accept the results of a free and fair election, as you noted. she went on, though, then to raise questions about whether or not this would be a fair election. criticizing once again what she refers to as mass mail-out ballots, saying that the president has been clear repeatedly that he thinks there's a lot of room for fraud and illegal voting in this idea of mass mail-out ballots. the president had tweeted

earlier today, telling everyone in florida to request an absentee ballot, which is a mail ballot. they have tried to make this case that what they are opposed to are states that send out ballots to every registered voter. however, only nine states and the district of columbia are planning to do that, and only one of those states, nevada, is considered by any stretch of the imagination a swing state. the other states, california, new jersey, oregon, biden leads the president by double digits. so it's unclear how they think the results of these elections are going to be influenced, you know, with so many states that are widely in the lead over the president widely trailing, sending out mail ballots, but there is an attempt to muddy the water because in the same breath where she was talking about states sending mass mail-out ballot, she then mentioned voter fraud potential in pennsylvania, where people have to actively request an absentee ballot.

>> we'll get into the motivations in a moment with barton gellman. thank you so much. let's bring in new jersey governor phil murphy. thank you very much for joining us. i know the trump campaign is suing your state, saying your mail-in election plan is unconstitutional. where does that lawsuit stand today? >> yeah, katy, i won't talk about the specifics of the lawsuit, but needless to say, we would not be -- unless we have a supremely high degree of confidence that is legitimate in every respect. and basically, we have already tried it out. we did our primary on this basis. it worked really well. everyone is going to get a ballot. you can choose to do -- to mail it in, to put it in a secure box, and we'll have hundreds of them around the state, show up on election day and hand it to a poll worker. or if you don't like any of that, you can actually show up and vote on a paper ballot on election day.

we think the ballots, it gets the balance right between public health and the sacred right to vote at the center of democracy. there's -- in our judgment, there's nothing controversial about this. ge what this is about, and we think it does it. >> does this make it harder for you to get all of the mail-in ballots to your voters by october 5th? that was initially your plan? >> yeah, we do not see that eventuality. we're working, as you can imagine, quite aggressively with the u.s. postal service. we have 21 counties, and as you rightfully point out, they have until october 5th at latest to mail these. we see no reason why they will not get out on a timely basis. certain counties have aurnl glr got them out. if you mail it, it still needs to be postmarked by election day, but we extended it in the primary and we're doing it again

in the general, you have seven days to make sure it gets in and gets counted, just on the off chance that the postal system is jammed up. so we think it gets that balance right between, as i said, public health and allowing people the right to vote, which is their sacred right. >> governor, i want you to respond to something the president's deputy campaign manager justin clark wrote about mail-in ballots. he said mail-in ballots delegates in-person voting, the most secure method, to second class status by deeming every ballot cast at a polling place provisional. citizens who want to vote in person face a real threat their ballots will not be counted. what's your response to that? >> first of all, i never heard of this guy x i have not heard this statement before, but he's completely ludicrously wrong. it's just not based on fact. it just isn't the case. every vote will get counted. i mean, we take voter security,

whether you're mailing it in, dropping it in a box, handing it in, or filling out that paper ballot, your vote is going to get counted. we have history and the facts on our side. so i would strongly and completely dispute that statement. >> what are you prepared for the president to do to contest the results of the election? what plans are you preparing for if there is not a clear result on election night? i'm sorry, repeat that one more time. naturally, your signal cut out right when you gave that answer. >> do you mean in new jersey or nationally? >> i mean in new jersey, if he contests the results in new jersey, and then if you want to answer nationally as well, i'll take that answer. >> yeah, i mean, it's above my pay grade in terms of the

national reaction other than to say i think any -- this has been a theme in this administration, and i think it's bad for the country, and it's bad for both parties to continually and constantly question institutions that have been tried and true for decades if not centuries. whether it's our peaceful transition of power, if there is one, the department of justice, our health experts, nato, you name it, it's one institution after another. it does no one any good on either side of the aisle to question any or all of the above. that's not to say they're beyond reproach or beyond critique or beyond review, but there's a way to do that and a way not to do that, and i just cannot take hearing about this, you know, lack of a peaceful transition. in new jersey, you know, we'll do what it takes. as one of your colleagues pointed out a few minutes ago, vice president biden is up substantially in the state. we don't take that for granted.

but that is a fact, if you look at any polling right now, but we'll do what it takes to protect the results. and we are, as i said, supremely confident in the model we have put forward. >> governor, given all he's saying about the mail-in balloting, saying that the election, the only way he could lose the election is if it is rigged, also not committing to a peaceful transfer of power, do you think the president of the united states is a danger to democracy? >> i don't know about that, but i suspect -- confident about where things stood. i do know that. i just would reiterate what i said a minute ago. i think this constant questioning, which has been a theme of this administration, of institutions, not that they are beyond review, critique. that's why we have people like inspectors general inside of all these institutions. they need to run right, and they need to run fair and transpar t

transparenty. but there's a right way to do that and a wrong way. i think undermining folks' confidence in the credibility of these institutions, including elections and democracy, i think is hugely detrimental to our country and to members of both parties. >> certainly doing it at a critical moment in our history. new jersey democratic governor phil murphy, thank you for joining us, sir. we appreciate all your time. >> in a column in the -- i'm sorry, in a story in the the atlantic" barton gellman says his goal is to throw an election into chaos and grab a second term regardless of what the votes say. according to gellman, if trump sheds all restraint and if his republican allies play the parts he assigns them, he could

obstruct the emergence of a legal victory for biden in the electoral college, and in congress, he could prevent the formation of consensus about whether there is an outcome at all, he could seize on that uncertainty to hold on to power. with me now is "atlantic" staff writer barton gellman. his new piece is titled "the election that could break america." this is not the first time, bart, the president has refused to commit to a peaceful transfer of power. he did it in 2016, talking about whether he would accept the results of the election. obviously, he wasn't the president back then. he's also done it in the lead-up to this election before this. you did an extensive report, exhaustive report about what that could mean. talk about the effort to undercut mail-in voting and what the president could be trying to do. >> well, the president has made it clear by word and deed and

just by psychological disposition that he will in no event concede defeat in the election. that's a big problem because concession is how we end elections. there is no umpire who has jurisdiction over the whole thing and can say to the loser, you lost, the game is over, the whistle has blown. the mail-in vote part of it is quite interesting because trump has spent months now discrediting the legitimacy of mail-in votes, making up nonsense, frankly, about fraud or about election rigging or about forgeries. they're all just completely invented from whole cloth. mail-in ballots, absentee ballots have been used for decades with no discernible fraud. but the way he's done the campaign has skewed the electorate, split the electorate into republicans who are now believing him and are

disinclined to vote by mail, and democrats who want to protect their health in an age of covid, and are inclined to use vote pie mail, and this creates a proxy in which the president's thousands of lawyers on election day and afterward can look at votes that come in by mail and by the numbers be confident is more likely to be a democratic vote and a republican vote, and therefore try to get those disqualified. and there will be endless litigation, potentially on the scale of the florida recount litigation in 2000. except in multiple battleground states. >> you heard lindsey graham say a moment ago, expect there will be litigation. you also write about the period between election day and inauguration day. those 79 days that you call the interregnum. you write, according to sources in the republican party at the state and national levels, the trump campaign is discussing contingency plans to bypass

election results and appoint loyal electors in battleground states where republicans hold the legislative majority. with a justification based on claims of rampant fraud, trump would ask state legislators to set aside the popular vote and exercise their power to choose a slate of electors directly. the longer trump succeeds in keeping the vote count in doubt, the more pressure legislators will feel to act before the safe harbor deadline expires. that deadline is december 8th. explain that. >> yeah, this is something i didn't understand at all until i started reporting this story. we are accustomed to the idea that we vote, and based on the popular vote in each state, the electors are apportioned. you win the state's electoral vote if you win the state's majority and public vote. that's not in the constitution. the constitution says that the electors are chosen by each state legislator as it sees fit. and so all of them, since the middle of the 19th century, have

said we'll do this by popular vote, but the supreme court ruled in 2000 that the state legislatures can take back this power from the voters at any time. and so trump's people are talking about a maneuver in which they would go to the republican state legislature in a swing state like pennsylvania or michigan or florida, and say we think the official vote count is cooked. it's crooked. it's rigged. throw in all of your made-up charges, and you should therefore as a legislature, appoint trump electors to represent what you believe is the faithful depiction of the will of the people of the state. so disregard the popular vote because the count is now hopelessly embroiled in fraud, and instead you choose the electors. this has happened once before in american history.

in 1876, four states sent in dueling slates of electors. you know, one, for example, that was certified by the governor and one by the legislators or something like that. and it was not until two days before the inauguration that samuel tillden conceded the election to rutherford hayes. it's not a good precedent for us because one of the reasons he conceded defeat was that the republican incumbent president, ulysses grant, was prepared to declare martial law from preventing tilden from claiming inauguration. if we come down to that, to the final moment in which two people are preparing to be inaugurated because we still haven't sorted out the election, then the commander in chief is going to be one of those candidates, and the candidate who had caused the chaos in the first place. >> so after that safe harbor day where the delegates are chosen and we can put the timeline of events up on the screen.

this is where you say things can really go off the rails in an unpredictable way. you game out scenarios that take it all the way up to inauguration day, where donald trump, joe biden, and nancy pelosi could all make a claim to hold the office of the presidency. when you game out these scenarios, is this in your mind the worst-case scenario, or are these becoming likelier by the day? >> well, the problem is the distance between worst case and plausibly likely is very uncomfortably thin right now. i believe that there is no circumstance under which donald trump will concede defeat. besides litigation, which does eventually end, and besides just talking about it in public and

on social media and marshaling forces in the streets, the most effective thing he could do to throw sand in the gears is to cause dueling slates of electors to be appointed, to cause his republican allies in some states, i talked with the ones in pennsylvania, to say we're sending trump electors regardless what the vote says. once that happens, then the constitution and the electoral count act put the decision point in congress. it's up to congress to decide which electors get to count. if any, because they could also decide that none of the electors from a disputed state are going to count. the law is full of logic bones and sort of labyrinth dead ends and it's easily possible that congress deadlocks in that circumstance. >> you say there's no umpire

here, which is a surprising -- surprising to consider because we have never been in this situation before. i encourage everybody to go out and read bart's story, and also the big news from it that the trump campaign is discussing contingency plans to bypass election results and appoint loyal electors in battleground states. that's huge news. an incredible reported piece. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. pleasure to see you, katy. and still ahead, bernie sanders returns to the campaign trail for the first time since march. and he's focused on exactly what we were just talking about, what sanders calls his nightmare scenario. his former campaign manager will join me. >> plus, the president is now accusing the fda of playing politics because the agency has decided to tighten its restrictions to insure the safety of a vaccine. first up, though, protests continue in louisville and across the country to demand justice for the death of breonna

taylor. civil rights attorney benjamin crump who represents the taylor family, joins me next. my father always reminded me, "a good education takes you many different horizons" and that sticked to my mind. so, when $1 a day came out, i said, "why not"? why not just utilize that resource. and walmart made that path open for me. without the $1 a day program, i definitely don't think i'd be in school right now. each week for me in school is just an accomplishment. i feel proud every step of the way. and at fidelity, you'll get planning and advice to help you prepare for the future, without sacrificing what's most important to you today. because with fidelity, you can feel confident that the only direction you're moving is forward.

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were lawful and justified when they killed an innocent woman in her own home. some of the protests got violent when police and national guardsmen aggressively tried to contain the crowds. in louisville alone, 127 people were arrested. including one man who is accused of shooting two officers. those officers are recovering from their injuries. today, the demand for justice is being amplified by a call for transparency around the grand jury's decision and deliberations. here was kentucky's governor, andy beshear, this morning on msnbc. >> as we sit here today, know what we have been told, but we haven't been able to see the information ourself said. i trust the people of kentucky and the people of america with the truth. and i think now especially since the attorney general has determined not to pursue certain charges, it's time to post all of the information. all of the facts, all the

interviews, all the evidence, all the ballistics, to truly let people look at the information. >> joining me now from louisville is nbc news correspondent cal perry. cal, set the scene for us today. >> you can see the park sort of behind me starting to fill up. we're still in jefferson square park. this is the area where police clashed with protesters last night. not the area where the two police officers were shot, that was about a mile from here, but today, i have to tell you, it's very tense because people are worried about who is in town. they're worried that folks from out of town are going to come into town. we have been approached a number of times, investigating who we are, who our people are. they're worried about people starting to clash with protesters and on top of that, you have the politics of last night's grand jury decision. amy mcgrath was just here. she's running for the senate against mitch mcconnell. >> change to rebuild kentucky

post covid, okay, because we can't go back to normal. normal is what got us this. normal is what got us the 50 million or 25 million people demonstrating in the streets. we've got to do better. >> a curfew remains in effect for the next two days. 9:00 p.m. to 6:30 in the morning. police enforce that curfew starting at 9:00 p.m. last night but 11:00 p.m. is when we saw most of the people arrested, the majority of those folks, i should say, arrested around 11:00 p.m. >> cal perry, thank you very much. and joining me now is one of the attorneys for breonna taylor's family, benjamin crump. mr. crump, thank you so much for being here. now that you have heard the news conference from the attorney general, now that you have spoken with the family, what questions do you guys have? >> well, breonna taylor's family is devastated. they are outraged. and they are heartbroken. because they, like my

cocounsels, are asking the questions, what evidence did kentucky attorney general daniel cameron present to the grand jury? and did he present any evidence at all for breonna taylor, because if he did not, then he unilaterally put his finger on the scales of justice to exonerate those police officers who killed breonna taylor and to insure that she would not have due process of the law, have her day in court, and essentially not get justice. and that's why we are demanding that the kentucky attorney general, daniel cameron, release the transcript of the grand jury proceedings so we can see if breonna taylor had any voice whatsoever in the grand jury room. >> you know, she wasn't named in the indictment.

all around the country, for the past, gosh, i think it's six months, people have been saying, say her name, breonna taylor. there are signs still up everywhere i go here in new york city with her name on them. she wasn't even mentioned in that indictment. what does that say to you? >> well, it's a slap in the face. it says that breonna taylor's life didn't matter to them, that black women's lives don't matter to them. and it continues a pattern of disrespect and marginalization of black women in america. furthermore, when you think about the wanton endangerment charges that were recommended and levied by this grand jury against the apartment where the white neighbors live for bullets going into their apartment, but no wanton endangerment charges

against the apartment where the black neighbors lived that had a bullet go into their apartment, nor no wanton endangerment charges for bullets going into breonna taylor's apartment, and even worse, no wanton murder for the bullets that went into breonna taylor's body. it's offensive on every level. and you just asked what did they present to the grand jury? because we got a lot of things that the family is saying that if they would have presented this, they would have brought charges. >> do you expect the fbi investigation to turn out differently? >> well, we're hopeful that the fbi will look at what daniel cameron negated to do, and that is the very context of why they were there at breonna taylor's apartment in the first place, busting open her front door.

and that was based on a lie that was in the probable cause affidavit prepared by a lieutenant with the louisville metropolitan police department that was the basis for the judge to sign the no-knock search warrant. so hopefully they look at that civil rights violation, and then, you know, it begs the question, they kept parading this one neighbor who said that he heard the police knock and announce. but our legal team have 12 neighbors that lived in close proximity to breonna taylor that said they did not hear anybody knocking and announce, and that one neighbor that daniel cameron so proudly proclaimed heard the police knock and announce, well, he gave two previous statements or they gave two previous statements, and in those statements, they said they did not hear the police knock and announce. so what did he present to the grand jury? just that one neighbor or did he

present all of the neighbors? that's why we're demanding that they release the transcript since he kept talking about transparency. well, we, too, believe in transparency, so release the transcript. >> benjamin crump, attorney for the family, one of the attorneys for the family of breonna tay r taylor. thank you for joining us. >> thank you so much. and why is bernie sanders back on the trail for the first time in six months? his former campaign manager will join me. first up, though, the fda says it is tightening its own rules to insure the safety of a vaccine. the president is now calling that a political move. resilients can be ready for it. a digital foundation from vmware helps you redefine what's possible... now. from the hospital shifting to remote patient care in just 48 hours... to the university moving hundreds of apps quickly to the cloud...

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we're following the latest on the pandemic. here are the facts as we know them this hour. coronavirus cases are on the rise in 22 states. most of those states are on the west and midwest, but maine and

new jersey have also seen recent upticks. >> the u.s. is now averaging roughly 40,000 new cases per day. 43,000, excuse me. a 16% increase from just one week ago. missouri governor mike parson and his wife tested positive for covid-19. they were traveling around the state for events this week, but are now quarantining. the republican governor opposed a state-wide mask mandate and down played the risks of reopening schools, even as missouri cases are climbing. covid-19 victims are getting younger. that's according to a new study from the cdc that says the median age of infected americans has gone from their 30s to 20s. cases among adults 40 and older, though, have steadily declined. >> and wisconsin officials are telling residents to keep their sick kids home. more than two dozen schools there are being investigated for coronavirus cases. public health officials have accused parents of deliberately

sending infected children to class and lying about it. and the president is accusing the fda of playing politics after it announced tough new restrictions on vaccines. >> we're looking at that, and that has to be approved by the white house. we may or may not approve it. that sounds like a political move. >> joining me now is dr. aimish adalja, a senior scholar at the johns hopkins center. thank you for being with us. what were these new regulations the fda was trying to put in place? >> they're trying to assure the public when they issue an emergency use authorization this vaccine will be safe, that it will be efficacious, within the limits of where we'll be in the phase 3 clinical trials. what the concern is is that this whole process will get politicized because the fda does have guidance for euas. they have to show that the risk is outweighed by the benefit. and we know for hydroxychloroquine, we know for

convalescent plasma, they had been meddling in the process, and there war concern. especially when you hear the president's rhetoric on what will mean with the new vaccine that will be developed. >> what sort of incentive would anyone have to loosen guidelines that the fda wants to put on to insure the safety of anything, especially a vaccine? >> i don't think there's any incentive other than a political one. you have steen the head of operation warp speed as welly many of the ceos of companies developing vaccines they're not going to allow anything they don't have confidence in to be promoted as a product. that speaks to their integrity, that they won't let this process get hijacked, but we have to be above and beyond what we normally do because of this environment, because of what we have seen before, and because of how the president has talked and because of the vaccine hesitancy and the antivaccine movement, which have really been champing at the bit to go after this

vaccine even before it's been developed. we cannot allow them to have any ground on this. >> allow me to play a moment from yesterday. this is between dr. fauci when he was on the hill testifying and senator rand paul. take a listen. >> they have developed enough community immunity that they're no longer having the pandemic because they have enough immunity in new york city to actually stop -- >> i challenge that. senator, because -- please, sir, i would like to be able do this because this happened with senator rand all the time. you are not listening to what the director of the cdc said. that in new york, it's about 22%. if you believe 22% is herd immunity, i believe you're alone in that. >> so this moment stopped me in my tracks yesterday as i was watching it. senator paul, comparing us to sweden, we're not really comparable to sweden. how frustrating is it when u.s.

senators don't seem to understand the basics of community spread, what we're dealing with in terms of health outcomes in this country, and the facts of this virus? >> it's extremely frustrating because you see them actually undermining the public health response. and attacking experts. and when it comes to senators, senator paul, rand paul is a physician. so he has to be held to an even higher standard because he's a medical professional. so he can look at the data and he can actually form good conclusions, but he seems he's evading those or not asking questions in a genuine manner, which i think is deplorable for a physician that's getting a chance to speak to dr. fauci about these really important issues. and it's just more evidence of the fact that this has been politicized. and that there are facts out there, irrespective of what people think of them, and they have to be addressed or we'll still continue to have this outbreak uncontrolled. >> dr. adalja, thank you so much for joining us today.

always appreciate your expertise. bernie sanders is back on the campaign trail and warning of a looming constitutional crisis. former sanders campaign manager faz shakir is with me next. don't go anywhere. ♪ ♪ it's official: national coffee day is now national dunkin' day! celebrate with a free medium hot or iced coffee with any purchase on september 29th. than rheumatoid arthritis. when considering another treatment, ask about xeljanz... a pill for adults with moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis when methotrexate has not helped enough. xeljanz can help relieve joint pain and swelling, stiffness, and helps stop further joint damage,

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does it worry me? absolutely. sensodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. the campaign trail. last hour, the vermont senator held his first in-person event since suspending his presidential campaign this spring. sanders warned of what he believes is a looming constitutional crisis should president trump challenge the results of the 2020 election. and he vowed to stop what he calls a threat to american democracy. >> no matter how rich or powerful you may be, no matter how arrogant and narcicisstic you may be, no matter how much you think you can get anything you want, let me make this clear to donald trump. too many people have fought and

died to defend american democracy. and you are not going to destroy it. >> joining me now is faiz shakir, he served as campaign manager for bernie sanders. faiz, always good to see you. this is the first time we have seen senator sanders out in public doing something like this in quite a while. why was this the moment he choz to take and why this message? >> this is a destressing and depressing tom topic. we hate to concede a president of the united states would act with such authoritarian impulses, but we have to take donald trump at his word, and he's telling us every day now, seemingly, he's not ready and prepared to take the election outcomes seriously. and i think senator sanders sees an important role to start educating the public about this and that way educate the public so they know that on election

night, when donald trump seemingly, inevitably wants to declare he's won with let's say 5% of the vote in, and wants to depress mail-in votes at that stage and say we should stop counting, i won, that we have been as an american public conditioned to understand these are the shenanigans and ploys we knew he was going undertake and we shouldn't fall for it. >> barton gellman was on a moment ago with me talking about all of the ways donald trump can throw a wrench into this process, especially as president of the united states. at the end of the article, he said one of the ways that people can potentially avoid an outcome like this is to make election night as clear as possible, and potentially reconsider voting by mail and instead voting in person if you are in a position where that is not a major risk to your health. there are other democrats who have said the same. governor hickenlooper, who is running for senate in colorado against cory gardner, has said drop your mail-in ballot off at

a drop box early. there's another senate candidate in another state saying something similar. is that something that bernie sanders would support, going in person instead of mailing in your ballot if it's possible for you? >> fundamentally, you have to vote, and how you do so is a matter of personal decision, at a very difficult time in which you want to maintain everyone's personal safety and security, but it is true now that you have early voting situations in every state that could make it plausible for people to go and vote that way, and we would urge people to take advantage of that. obviously, vote by mail and track your ballot is, you have to get registered, have to request the mail-in ballot, have to get it in, and if none of those apply, certainly vote on november 3rd, on the day of the election, but the most important thing is we have to vote and vote in an overwhelming way, and the upside of this covid era is hopefully there's easier routes

to citizen participation in our democracy and people should take advantage of that and make sure their voices get heard. i think senator sanders said it today, the easiest way to defeat donald trump's authoritarian impulses is to register a loud verdict he has lost, one he cannot deny nor can his party deny. >> is joe biden animating bernie sanders voters? do you expect them to show up? >> yeah. certainly, senator sanders played a large role in that. after the suspension of his campaign, he moved almost immediately to endorse, we set up these task forces in which joe biden moved in a progressive direction. i think senator sanders has been out there very frequently discussing the need that if you care about progressive gains that we have made over the past years and the kind of repercussions of the disasters that would afflict progressives for the next four years under donald trump, there's only one route here, and it has to be loud and proud support of joe biden.

we have seen that in the polling that a lot of sanders supporters are there. but now we have teat gem thoget. among young people, among latinos, they may be there, but you is to register your voice, get them enthused. we're taking every effort we can to make sure people are participating. one other thing i say, katy, for a lot of citizens wondering what else they can do, you can ask your state's mail-in ballots before election day. it would be a travesty, i think, if we have election day happens and then we're waiting weeks and weeks for states to count results. and you know, i experienced as a campaign manager in the primary where some states' tallies took a lot of time, and that was just in the premary. i would hope now, election results demand that your states are counting early. >> i know a lot of states are trying to do that. michigan was certainly one of them, so far, unsuccessfully, but faiz shakir, always good to have you on. hope to see you soon. >> as it stands now, president

trump is filling justice ginsburg's seat on the supreme court, he's doing it, not a matter of if but when. might there be a way for a democratic controlled congress to protect reproductive rights in the face of a 6-3 slantd? ex legislative option next with my next guest. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. from prom dresses... ...to soccer practices... ...and new adventures. you hope the more you give the less they'll miss.

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president trump says he wants to fill the vacant seat left by justice ginsburg as quickly as possible in case he has to challenge the results of the election. >> i think it's very important. i think this will end up in the supreme court and i think it's important we have nine justices. >> that may be true and it likely the president will fight the results of the election if he loses. supreme court appointments are for life. a 6-3 majority would have

implications far beyond the 2020 election. joining me now is ben wittis. let me add the caveat that the threat of overturning woe j. wa v. wade animates democratic voters as well. is there a legislative fix for federalizing abortion if it turns out there's a 6-3 majority? >> the answer is probably there is. you know, i think any law that congress passed that would federalize in statute rather than in constitution law

abortion rights would face constitutional challenge from conservatives and there are the traditional position of for example justice scalia that the federal government has no business in this area at all and so i think you would certainly see challenges. that said i think it's doable by congress and the traditional congressional power to regulate interstate commerce is exceptionally broad. if congress were to say that no state can interfere with the right of a woman in consultation with her doctor to procure a financial -- essentially a financial transaction to terminate that pregnancy, i don't see how that wouldn't fit comfortably, particularly if it were worded carefully and

cautiously. i don't see how it wouldn't fit comfortably within the supreme court's commerce law juris prudence. would six justices be faithful to that juris prudence is anybody's guess. that would not of course solve the many other problems that liberals and progressives have with the supreme court becoming dominated by conservative appointees. the national abortion issue is addressable if pro-choice legislators were in control. >> it's not necessarily an argument that it's a woman's body and she has the right to do what she wants with that body. you're talking about writing this into law by using something that doesn't necessarily come to

top of mind, which is the commerce clause and saying this is about transactions. i guess using equipment that you buy over interstate lines, that you transport and they can't get involved in it, that's a really complicated and convoluted way to get this done. is it possible with congress for them to do this? >> actually i think it's the simplest way to get it done which is why i mentioned it. i recognize for people who aren't steeped in constitutional law the theory i laid out is silly sounding and seems much more sensible to say, hey, congress legislates a right to choose, what roe v. wade said many years ago. the problem with that is if the supreme court were to hold that that right does not exist, it's

not clear where the authority for congress comes to legislate it. whereas congress has an undoubted power to regulate commercial transactions. this is a cleaner way to do what amounts to the same thing. >> i should add this would be contingent on democrats keeping the house, retaking the senate and retaking the president. >> and probably blowing up the filibuster too. >> on top of that as well. thanks for the thought experiment. i found it very interesting and a potential work around for democrats if they want to pursue it. ben, thank you very much. that does it for me today. if you go outside, please wear a mask. ayman mohyeldin picks up our coverage after a quick break. because with fidelity, you can feel confident that the only direction you're moving is forward.

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good afternoon, everyone. i'm ayman mohyeldin in new york. any moment know president trump is leaving for rallies in two battle ground states. this as the fbi director throws out the president's repeated allegations of a rigged election. here's what christopher wray told the senate committee. >> we have not seen any kind of coordinated national voter fraud

effort i