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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  October 19, 2020 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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with just two weeks left to get your ballots in, i want to see more. tweet at me or "the reidout." you can catch me tonight on the late show with stephen colbert. so much fun. all in with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in," it sounds like an argument for biden. >> you want to listen to dr. fauci. >> he'll listen to the scientist. >> covid, covid, covid, pandemic. >> tonight as the country suffers, the war on science inside the white house. >> i can't help thinking that we were really, you know, going through a time that's disturbingly anti-science in certain segments of our society, that's very troublesome to me. >> then dr. ashish zsa and with
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their own polls cratering the senators who want you to forget they're on the trump train. >> senator john cornyn, been with me from the very beginning. >> as early voting starts in florida, what you can do to ensure your vote is actually counted and "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes and we are just over two weeks from the election or the end of the election or the end of the voting, may not be the end of the election, and the situation with the virus is just very bad and getting worse. there's no other way to say it. cases are spiking with new daily cases averaging more than 57,000 a day. here is the even more worrying thing, hospitalizations, that key metric that doesn't depend on how much testing we are, we know how many people are in hospitals. that is trending up as well.
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it keeps climbing. 38,000 now currently hospitalized. hospitals in some areas at or near capacity. even with advances in treatment we are still, still losing more than 700 americans on average every single day to this virus day after day after day. if the president is astonishingly and not surprisingly but madingly back to where he was in late february when he was telling people not to worry, the cases would go down to zero despite getting warnings from public health officials, the president's re-election message is forget about it. don't worry about the pandemic. it's old news. quote, people are tired of covid. people are saying, whatever, just leave us alone. people are tired of hearing fauci and all these idiots. all these idiots. that was the president talking about the nation's top health experts, including fauci, the most trusted expert.
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he described fauci as a, quote, disaster and spend the day picking on him on twitter. he's plainly pretty jealous of the fact that people like him and trust him and he's on tv. 64% of voters say fauci is good or excellent. only 39% say the same of donald trump. people rightfully, the majority of people, do not trust what the president says and does when it comes to the virus, obviously for obvious reasons. at a certain level, donald trump is right. people are tired about hearing about the virus and being told they can't do the things they can't do it. i'm tired of saying it to you. we want this to be over. people are tired of watching their family suffer and tired of getting sick and tired of watching people they love die alone face timing with their
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loved ones in the last moments while the president pretends there's nothing wrong. we're tired of that. some of trump's worst approval ratings came this summer when it was at the mid summer peak. he's down nationally to joe biden by 10 points or so as the pandemic gets worse. at a rally president trump attacked joe biden about saying he'll listen to the scientists. >> he'll listen to the scientists. if i listened to the scientists, we would have a country in a massive depression. instead, we're like a rocket ship. take a look at the numbers. >> rocket ship. first president ever to net lose jobs? dr. anthony fauci has been very restrained. walked this incredible tight rope. today fauci offered a not so subtle response. >> we have a lot of challenges
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ahead of us and i can't help thinking we are really, you know, going through a time that is disturbingly anti-science in certain segments of our society. that's very troublesome to me. >> it's very clear that the nation's covid response is not being run by people like dr. anthony fauci. it is being run by, well, this guy. dr. scott atlas. we've met him before on this program. he's not an em deemologist, virologist, he's a radiologist. you have to go to a lot of school for that. it's expertise, but that's 9 guy that looks at your mri, all right? he has the president's attention and got it by going on trump tv and telling the president what the president wants to hear despite being not qualified to discuss what he is discussing. he's basically a right wing hack with a medical degree.
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he says we should expose most of the parties even though that means it's done. that's who trump is listening to more than any other scientist if you want to call a radiologist a scientist. that guy. a great new piece in the washington post about he's wreaking havoc, slowing testing and i'm going to talk to a reporter who wrote that piece. scott atlas is a senior fellow at the hoover institution when you take a second to think about it, it tells you all you need to know. the hoover institution is a rich right winger group.
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they said, you know whose reputation we need to resuscitate? republican herbert hoover. though to be fair to herbert hoover, he was a fascinating bio, he did great things before his zis sass strous presidency, but the great depression is a pretty darn good press kent. we haven't featured a catastrophe since hoover. when trump was painting a rosie picture, they gave a private briefing that fueled a market selloff and that was to none other than the hoover institution. herbert hoover's disastrous
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stewardship did not give him a ground swell of support. i don't think the 17 point differential is possible anymore. lord knows what will happen in the next two weeks. lord knows if the polls are right. right now it looks like donald trump like whoever before him is driving both the country and his electoral chances off a cliff. want to start with the reporting is yasmine whose title is a great piece of reporting. can you tell me about the roll atlas plays which does seem to be in total crisis right now? >> sure. what we've found is since atlas arrived since the late summer, he's consolidated power over the response. he says things and advocates
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what they want to hear and what the political advisers want to hear. we should fully reopen, protect the most vulnerable. it's basically someone with a medical degree saying thwhat th want to hear. there shouldn't be restrictions. he advocates against masking, masks and social distancing are meaningless. since this has happened, atlas is the only doctor the president meets with. >> he's a doctor, a radiologist, he's not an epidemiologist, not a virologist, not a public health expert. he's a radiologist associated with a conservative think tank? >> that's right. you have dr. birx and dr. fauci
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with epidemiological and you have the other doctors that run the respective agencies. dr. atlas does have a medical degree but he doesn't have the infectious disease or public health background. >> one thing that really leaped out at me is there's $9 billion sitting in a government account unspent for national testing. birx and fauci have urged the government to use unspent testing which amounts to 9 billion so anyone who needs can get a test. atlas who is opposed to surveillance testing has repeatedly quashed these. he says they don't need to get tested. he's stopping the government from spending money it already has to test. >> that's right. birx and fauci have been pushing to dramatically ramp up testing
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especially as they predict a devastating winter. deaths could have 400,000 a winter. we saw it go back up to 40,000. dr. birx and dr. fauci say anybody who wants a test should be able to get it. there are some of the at-home hests distributed. you can dramatically expand testing. they have been shot down. he's against surveillance testing. he thinks there's no need to test asymptomatic people. he doesn't think that the virus is very serious and that we shouldn't be worried about that. >> just to make clear on this, this view, there are a tiny sliver of public health experts and epidemiologists who do
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agree. there is some dissent but it is extremely contradrikt try to the large global consensus? >> right. it's only been around for less than a year so there's still not a ton of science about how serious or not serious. there's still a lot of discussion about this. a lot of discussions around herd immunity talks about excess deaths. you have people who suffer long-term consequences for weeks and months and there's not a lot understood about what the effects of the long-term deaths are. you don't have to worry about certain segments not getting it and while a large portion of people who are young and healthy and don't have pre-existing conditions do okay. there is uncertainty of how this
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affects people. >> thank you for making time for us. >> thank you. my next guest has firsthand experience in managing a pandemic in the white house as well as being a former governor in the state of kansas, kathleen so he be sobelius. it sounds cartoonish to say one candidate wants people to get more sick and one candidate wants fewer people to not get sick but that is the choice at this point. >> it seems to be absolutely the choice. when you have a president who from february until now has denied the seriousness of this vir virus, denied -- hasn't shoni willingness to mobilize a national strategy and now is repeating and having got the virus himself, having learned
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something, he seems to have learned absolutely nothing. he's pushing for other people to get sick. >> yeah. >> he's pushing out information that is just wrong and false according to public health. >> i want to play this clip on atlas. it is actually the theory of scott atlas, especially after having gotten the best care provided by public money, a lot of people getting covid is good. that is the stated position of scott atlas. the more people that get it, the better. listen to what he said on april 27th during his taped audition for the white house. >> we have a chance for people to develop their own anti-bodies and have enough people to block this network of projection and
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contagion to the people that are vulnerable. that's why we give widespread vaccines, to induce the so-called herd immunity. >> the difference between vaccines and getting covid, vaccines for polio and polio you get the antibodies without the polio but this seems to be the case. what if you got everybody sick? >> it's shockingly irresponsible. he lives in a different world than i live in. there is no young person who lives in a bubble as far as i know. pushing people back into school where they're in contact to their children. they are out and about. this is not about bubble people. you're absolutely right. scott atlas has flipped herd immune commit at this on its head. herd immunity is about all of us
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getting vaccinated so people who can't take a vaccine, like children under 6 months can't get a flu vaccine. they're urged to get the vaccine to protect someone. it's not about making people sick so they pro thekt themselves and the number of deaths we would have to suffer is not hundreds of thousands it's millions of americans. what scott atlas seems to be saying, that's just fine, now donald trump is repeating it. >> one of the things highlighted as we've gone through the three spikes is there is a push by the president, we know this from reporting, to push the decisions on the governors who he could blame. america is one country. as a national scandal when three
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people dropped. if one governor makes bad decisions, still over, i think of south dakota, christine has big aspirations for a political future. they had the sturgis motorcycle rally. that may have seeded the entire upper midwest. it is not possible for one governor's choices not to affect another governor, am i wrong? >> you're absolutely right. you've seen governor nome spread disease in the mt. rushmore event. what we ask watch, the -- it's a great example of people who just
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ignore social distancing, ignore wearing a mask, are now defiantly saying oh, my heavens, don't listen to the scientists. threatening anthony fauci who is the world's foremost expert on diseases and suggesting everybody should get sick. some people will die, but a lot of people won't die and that is not better. it is so shocking. >> it's sick and it's evil is what it is. >> it's that. >> essentially the current implicit to explicit strategy of the president who sort of dances between whether it's impolice 1i9 or explicit, thank you for your time. >> good to see you. tonight we are facing the third wave of the pandemic. what lessons have we learned as we prepare for the long winter ahead? don't go away.
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we do have vaccines and therapeutics coming down the pike. when you look at the time period for that, the next 6 to 12 weeks are going to be the darkest of the entire pandemic. vaccines won't become available in any meaningful way until early to third quarter of next
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year. >> that stuck with me. the doctor warning about another covid outbreak. and it looks like it's started. a group of public health experts are tracking the cases saying hospital capacities and covid exit this is where the country stands in 30 states there is an uncontrolled spread of the virus. 13 more states are in trouble in the light red. only maine and vermont in green are doing well, five states in washington, d.c., doing okay in yellow. two states doing okay were hit very hard earlier this year. in new york where nearly 1,000 people were dying a day back in april, the caseload has been way down and has been. in california averaging 10,000 cases a day.
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dr. zsa joins me now. doctor, i want you to take us through your thinking about why california has been able to buck the trends we're seeing in so much of the country. >> good evening. thank you for having me on, chris. california has sort of applied all of the basic public health stuff we've been talking about in a pretty vigorous way. after that july surge, in august they put a lot of effort into ramping up testing. one of the few states we're testing is up 35 to 40% since february. they took a micro targeted strategy. they went and looked at each county and could see there were big outbreaks in some counties and others were fine. they really targeted their efforts to individual places and tried to put in policies that are sort of going to be effective there.
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and what you see is cases came down for the rest of august and september. one of the few big states where cases are down now compared to labor day where the rest of the country has gone way up. >> this is the thing that's so maddening about the discussion. we've been around this carrousel countless times. testing leads to surveillance. surveillance gives you an indicator of early outbreaks which gives you a target of the efforts so they target what you need to do. they keep doing what looks like a facsimile of normal. >> that's the entire strategy. not rocket science. we had this figured out by march or april and have been essentially beating the same drum for six months and when states do it. but overall they've been doing a good job. when states do it, it works. so there's not a mystery anymore
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of how do we have to beat this thing. we have to implement what works. >> the big thing happening now is we're watching an explosion of cases all through europe. crazy, crazy numbers exceeding some of the worst numbers from the u.s., from the u.k. it's in spain, it's in france, italy, on and on and the weather is getting colder and people are spending more time indoors. is that what's happening? is this what we're seeing in the u.s. and the e.u.? the much predicted weather turning pushing people indoors and a more hospitable environment for the virus? >> the weather has something to do with t. i don't think that's the primary issue. when i looked at europe, you could see cases starting to rise and they just ignored it. >> yeah. >> i think we were in denial. a lot of european countries were
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in denial. for six or eight weeks they let it build and build and build and now they realize, oh, my gosh, we have a huge number of problems. you don't want to be late to the virus. you want to jump ahead. winter, cold air, more time indoors matters but i think what really matters is how aggressive you are with the virus. >> one of the things we're getting more data on is school. this is a section with fairly incomplete damage. they've done quite a bit of testing for those going to school a few days a week with very, very, very low positivity rates. what is your sense now that we're four to eight weeks in in terms of different in placement
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security? >> it's a great question. i think we have learned something. i think we're seeing data that younger kids, k-5, really are not driving much in the way of infections. even in places where i was skeptical, they're doing okay. the young kids k through 5 should be back in school. older kids spread more. if we had the kind of testing we're talking about, i think we could have had schools across much of the country. we need to try and track the data and see how it goes. i suspect we're going to be able to keep more schools open than we think. it's not just about the safety of kids. we have to keep teacher and staff safe.
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>> dr., thank you for your help. >> a convenient two weeks before the election dodging the so-called trump stink after this. r this but i'm relentless too. because every day matters. and having more of them is possible with verzenio, the only one of its kind proven to help you live significantly longer when taken with fulvestrant, regardless of menopausal status. and it's the only one of its kind you can take every day. verzenio + fulvestrant is approved for women with hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer whose disease has progressed after hormonal treatment. diarrhea is common, may be severe, or cause dehydration or infection. at first sign of diarrhea, call your doctor, start an anti-diarrheal, and drink fluids. before taking verzenio, tell your doctor if you have fever, chills, or other signs of infection. verzenio may cause low white blood cell counts, which may cause serious infection that can lead to death. life-threatening inflammation of the lungs can occur.
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washington post had an article the other day highlighting the difficulty that former trump staffer sean spicer are having finding jobs after leaving the white house with one current administration official referring to the stigma as the, quote, trump stink. we are watching vulnerable senators trying to avoid it. john cornyn. according to 538, he has voted with trump over 98% of the time. in 2008 he ran his first
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re-election campaign calling himself a big gun. in 2018 cornyn added donald trump to the ad. big john and big don fighting off the libs together. if you want to see it, you're out of luck. the big bear hug between cornyn has been spliced out of the archives on youtube. thankfully for us there is a bootleg version. john cornyn ties a star to big don. >> big don. big john. ♪ ♪ >> john cornyn, john, thank you.
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thank you, john. >> my god, that's creepy. throughout the trump era john cornyn's whole posture has been glib. that's a core thrown beer. fast forward, cornyn is an incumbent with m.j. hegar. when asked to basically defend the indefensible, that would be the president's horrible mismanagement of the coronavirus case he tried to distance himself from trump. very small handful of people who can tell you about the pressure senator cornyn is facing, heidi
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heitkamp. great to have you on the program, senator. as someone who had to run a very tough race in unforgiving terrain, the state that had moved quite to the right, as you watched john cornyn who has viewed trump as an ally trying to wriggle away from him, what's your reaction to hearing that quote? >> my reaction is so many of these senators are not idea ideaologues, in the past it was not cool to criticize trump. now he wants everyone to believe he was a dissent ter in private. who cares? the time to stand up for texas and our country and democracy is to be in public.
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he's no bob barker. they'll remember what he was, which is opportunistiopportunis. >> it seems the rank opportunism is a little unbecoming. if someone had to make these calculations about how you would deal with a median swing voter, how do you think this reads to the voters in texas? >> who knows. if they're very pro trump, they're going to say, well, he's got to do what he's got to do so trump can have a majority. if he has to pick up moderates, we'll tolerate that. the better example is ben spoke about the complete lack of courage as opposed to john
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corker and jeff harris. people will remember these folks as totally complicit, people who didn't stand up for their state or american values. it meant they were liberated a little bit. lamar alexander tweeted in defense of ronald fauci. if more people paid attention, we would have fewer cases. but this strikes me as a political calculation that some distance with the president is probably needed right now. >> well, sure. i mean, when you look at it,
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there are people who are in the trap a few years ago. he couldn't win being against trump and he couldn't win being for trump. gardner is the same way and i think jonie ernst is in the same spot. i thought president obama was doing the right thing. he may say that was okay for you politically, but it also is good for your sole. do it in real time. annie applebalm wrote a great piece in the atlantic. in the end she interviewed people who fought the nazis, fought the communists. her line, they risked everything. they risks their life.
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the only thing these people risk in defense of our democracy is their re-election. that's cowardness at the highest level. >> yeah. kelly loaugh ler in georgia. she has a challenge from doug collins. this was a debate with eight candidates today and she was asked can you name something president trump has done that you have said or agree with? >> no, i am proud to be of a senator with 100% voting record of trump. that might have a long term effect. >> the caucus is extremely angry. that meant she had to run so far
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to the right. there's another back story there, chris. he knows the gop has a problem with women. he's told them to appoint mcsally. >> no, great point. between mcsally, loughler and the way the trump campaign and women candidates, we may see a wipeout. senator heidi heitkamp. why some of those -- >> they'll likely be thrown out and to you can do about it. travel purchased through chase!
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democratic institutions is not unique in the world. there's been a notable roll back. a right wing coup occurred last year. it has pretty important parallels to what is going on this year. now moralis is running for an unprecedented fourth time. he is an fdr figure in bolivia. the closest comp you can come up with. he's faced rough shod for running over elections. they started counting the votes. the vote count halted for some reason. when it resumed, he was over the threshold. they called it a fraud.
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in a hasty analysis, the organization of american states backed up those claims. there were major protests all across the country, particularly a among right wing opponents. they installed an interim president. subsequent analysis shows there was no evidence of fraud and the vote counting resumed. it came from areas that overwhelmingly favored moralis. yesterday they held a vote and moralis is winning it today. they celebrated in the streets after legitimacy is restoord. there's declaring a victory on
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. it looked like on the first day of early voting in florida early this morning thousands of people lining up for polls despite heavy rains across the state. according to the u.s. election project, nearly 30 million people across the country have already voted. to give you some context, that's nearly 20%, a fifth of the total votes counted in the last presidential election already notched. there's two ways it's happening, early voting and mail-in voting, which is less straightforward. right now only 18 states require that voters be notified if there's a minor issue with their absentee ballot like a missing signature so that they have the opportunity to fix their ballot in time for it to be counted. other states just don't have that protection, so ballots are
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already being rejected across the country. in texas today, three judges appointed by republican presidents ruled that the state can reject a mail-in ballot over a signature discrepancy without giving voters a chance to fix it because doing so, according to the court would compromise the integra integrity of mail-in ballots. election law expert ned foley has been studying the courts and the fragility of this process for years. judy brown also joins me now. judith, this is obviously an area of significant concern about absentee ballot rejections, particularly because, and i will say this having voted absentee early in the spring, it is a little complicated. if you haven't done it before -- i was panicked that i was
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missing something, and then there's also, you know, data we have that shows that there's some real racial disparities in these reject rates. what's your reading on where this stands? >> it's funny. i actually just did mine on saturday and i had to read over the instructions three times to make sure that i was doing everything right because we know that little technicalties can result in rejections. and we're seeing african-american and latinx voters being rejected more often, and part of that is because, yes, there are technicalties, but second, this is the first time that many voters are voting by mail because of the pandemic. and so this is new to voters and they have to know that they have to follow all of the instructions. some of them are silly, right? rewrite your address. you know what my address is. sign here. you already know my signature. and then we have the whole problem of signature matches, which is, like, you know, the people who are doing the signature matching are not experts.
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so it's a problem. >> ned, you got a bunch of states that say, yeah, you got a right to fix this. if we flag something, you can find out and we can deal with it. in this case, you got three federal judges who say there is no right and the state has a compelling interest to toss the ballots if they want to toss them. >> yes. i'm a big fan the cure. i was part of a bipartisan program the american law institute did over years and said every state should've this kind of cure possibility, but some states don't. and so the texas case involves the constitutional question of whether states must do that even if their legislature doesn't provide it. and these texas judges had a strict interpretation of the constitution. >> we've got another big case that just happened, which i think is worth discussing because we have so much litigation. this is the supreme court not taking a case, which can
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sometimes be huge news. and this seems pretty big. this was basically the state supreme court of pennsylvania, basically came in and said, look, we're going to count ballots three days after they get to their election day because of the unprecedented volume and as long as they're post-marked, that was challenged by the republican party and the trump campaign to federal court and the supreme court. supreme court didn't take it. it was a 4-4 tie. roberts siding with the three remaining liberals, the other four conservatives saying we want to take this and not affirm the lower-court decision. what do you think this portends and what this means? >> part of the problem is that republicans have been fighting this year to create more barriers to the ballot box, whether it's fighting over the number of drop boxes in a place, the deadlines for when you have to return it. this is their playbook this
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year, right, to make it harder for people to vote by, you know, in a pandemic. and so what we're seeing in the supreme court -- we'll it in a lot of cases -- is that courts don't like to at the last minute enter into election law fearing that they might change the outcome. our problem is that we think that they should when it allows for greater access to the ballot, not when it restricts. chris, i also want to mention, remember, we're missing a very important part of the voting rights in this presidential election so we don't have the opportunity to check the discrimination before it happens. >> great point. ned, what judith is referring to is what's called the per sell principle, the idea that you don't change the rules of elections very close to the election. there's obvious thoughtfulness to that, but we have a weird application of it where lower courts will say, no, you have a right to do x, and then the plate court will say according to this principle, we're going
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to change what you just said to revert back to the original and you end up with what seems to me if you're sending people constantly updating and confusing signals. >> true, all true. two points about this case that i think is important. one is that it was coming from the state supreme court, not from the lower federal courts. >> right. >> the purcell principle comes out of lower federal courts. chief justice was cutting the state supreme court slack, but because it's a 4-4 case, that's my second point, there's a ninth justice that may be arriving on the supreme court soon and we don't know how that would go. but it leaves a big question mark, what does this case signal in terms of how a nine-member court would decide it. >> great place to end, which is that the president of the united states has been extremely explicit about this. he wants amy coney barrett on the court precisely to rule on the election outcome, which he
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says he expects to go to the court and ted cruz and lindsey graham agree. and implicit is they don't trust roberts. they think he's a squish. and so this does seem to kind of -- >> it's amazing. >> right, exactly. the guy that wrote shelby county gunning the voting rights act. >> he's wanted to go after voting rights when he was a student and part of the federalist society. yes, now trump has to get the last person on the court because he's teeing it up for bush v. gore type of challenge to make sure he's covering himself. unfortunately that's where we are and hopefully we're going to be able to stop this nomination from going through. we'll see. >> i don't know if that's going to happen, although, ned, you and i discussed the fact that the margins matter a huge amount in terms of what we see and in terms of what we see election night. for all the talk about extending this e florida and arizona should've their votes counted election night.
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there's a universe in which they count them and we know. >> true. we have to be prepared for different scenarios on election night, one of which could be an early signal in favor of vice president biden. won't be a definite result yet. you don't get official results till you get certified vote tallies for a couple of weeks. but be prepared for different possibilities. >> ned foley and judith brown, thank you so much for making time tonight. that is all in. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. thank you so much, thank you for your counsel over the work day as to what counted as news that should be on tv. it was such a weird day today. >> i'm always happy to have those high-level editorial discussions with you about the most important stories in our world. >> let us never speak of this publicly again. thank you very much, my friend. it pays to have colle