tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC January 13, 2021 7:00pm-8:00pm PST
you are an american who lived through a president being impeached twice in one term. at the beginning of your civic consciousness did you ever think it was possible? no. we can do it, america. we're capable of anything if you just elect people that ill-suited to the job. that's going to do it for us on this historic night. see you again tomorrow. now it's time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell." good evening lawrence. >> good evening, rachel. there's a bunch of 10-month-old
babies thinking, we've only seen one. you just have to be older than ten months to have seen your first impeachment trial already in this country. this is where we are. >> true, true, true, true. >> rachel -- >> yes? >> fascinating to hear you with michael cheryl talking about what she called a possible reconnaissance mission in the house. and to realize she's using the term professionally. she doesn't throw that word around as i would as a air force veteran, former federal prosecutor. stunning information she was delivering. what i've been trying to track out is what records might there be of the names of people being given those tours by republican staff or republican members. and apparently there are some ways they could have slipped past having their names recorded as having entered the complex. but most people, almost
everyone, has to get a record of their entry into that complex at this point. but who knows what happened that day? >> right. but it is interesting that you raised that point about her background because she is, as she describes, she's talking about recognizing reconnaissance as part of her military training but also approaching it like a prosecutor. the demand in that letter that she and 30 members of congress sent today is asking for all of the paperwork that might conceivably exist that would document who brought in which people and for what purpose in the days leading up to the attack. they're looking for the receipts. they're not just asking for an open investigation. they want the evidence. and she has laid it out in a way that is very specific and shows knowledge in the kinds of security procedures that would have been triggered to get those people in. she wants those records. it's a very smart approach. >> rachel, you might remember that the only congressman, as i recall, who got to the speak
before the invasion of the house was congressman paul guo czar of arizona. he was the first one to speak supporting a challenge to the electoral votes of his own state, arizona. his pro, brother, tim, is going to join us at the very end of this hour and my first question to his brother is going to be, why do you want your brother expelled from the house of representatives? and then we'll go from there. >> yeah, there's -- there is -- i mean politicians' families have brought a lot of dramas to politicians' lives over the years. but paul gosar's siblings, when i saw they were asking for him to be expelled, i thought i'm not sure how much of that story i want to know, but i definitely want to know enough that they can talk about on television. i'm so glad you've got him. that's going to be fascinating. >> i think they know what they're talking about when they're talking about their brother. just have to think so. >> yes, exactly.
>> thank you, rachel. >> thank you, lawrence. >> well, he told us this would happen. 11 months ago, our first guest told us this would happen. more importantly, he told republicans in the house and the senate who were opposing the impeachment of donald trump that this would happen again. >> he has done it before, he will do it again. what are the odds if left in office he will continue trying to cheat? i will tell you. 100%. he will continue trying to cheat in the election until he succeeds. then what shall you say? >> what 10 republicans in the house of representatives said today was, enough is enough. and those ten republicans who voted for the impeachment of donald trump made history by creating the largest bipartisan vote for the impeachment of a president ever recorded in the
house of representatives. >> today in a bipartisan way, the house demonstrated that no one is above the law, not even the president of the united states. that donald trump is a clear and president danger to our country and that, once again, we honored our oath of office to protect and defend the constitution of the united states so help us god. and now i sadly and broken over what this means to our country of a president who would incite insurrection will sign the endorsement of the article of impeachment.
>> that is the simplest article of impeachment ever written, and it is the only article of impeachment of a president ever written for which we all witnessed the crime in question. we all witnessed donald trump committing the high crime of insurrection that he is charged with in that impeachment article. incitement of insurrection. we have never before seen the presidential crime in question with our own eyes live on tv. it took the crushing stupidity, unwavering criminality and life long lust for camera attention for donald trump to commit an impeachable offense right before our eyes on television.
the trumpian stupidity of that was matched by the trumpian stupidity of the invaders of the capitol who posed for pictures and videos that the fbi is now using to round them up and arrest them. we repeatedly showed you photographs of this man wearing a camp auschwitz sweatshirt both inside and outside the capitol in the hope that that would help identify him to the fbi. the fbi is now using those photographs in the affidavit attached to the criminal complaint charging him with knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority and violent entry and disorderly conduct on capitol grounds. his name is robert keith packer. he lives in new port, new jersey. attached an affidavit to the criminal complaint telling the judge, quote, media coverage of
these events showed one of the rioters who entered the capitol building, a alate middle aged white male wearing a sweatshirt bearing the words camp auschwitz. your after yant, meaning agent fischer, knows auschwitz to have been a holocaust concentration camp complex in germany where nazis murdered more than 1 million people between 1940 and '45. it translates approximately in english to work makes freedom. accordingly the sweatshirt worn by the individual above and depicted in the video above appears to be a symbol of nazi hate ideology. the fbi includes a photograph from a convenience store camera showing robert packer wearing that same sweatshirt a month ago in new port news, virginia.
a jewish woman who lives near property owned by robert packer told nbc news, he knows my name. it's a malice i didn't know about, and it's scary. now the world knows about robert packer's malice and his devotion to donald trump. here is what donald trump said directly to robert packer and everyone else who invaded the capitol while the invasion was still underway and they were killing a capitol police officer. >> we love you. you're very special. >> never forget, donald trump has always known that american nazis love him. never forget that. he called them good people when they were marching in charlottesville chanting, jews will not replace us. donald trump knows the ku klux klan loves him.
every republican has always known that about donald trump, every republican. all ten republicans who voted to impeach today already knew that america's nazis loved him. they knew so much about donald trump that they never complained about. they knew so much that did not move them to take action. never forget. they knew what he was doing to children and infant babies at the southern border, separating them from their parents and they did nothing. they knew what he was trying to do on that phone call with the president of ukraine. they knew that was an impeachable offense asking the president of ukraine to take an action against joe biden. they knew, and they did nothing. they knew that that was an impeachable offense. they pretended that it wasn't. tom rice represents the south carolina district that is even more conservative than the entire state of south carolina. so, he has an even more conservative electorate than lindsey graham does statewide. he voted for impeachment today
and issued a statement saying, i have backed this president through thick and thin for four years. i campaigned for him and voted for him twice, but this utter failure is inexcusable. but it was completely predictable. tom rice wanted donald trump to be president. there was never any doubt that this is the kind of president donald trump would be. it is the kind of president donald trump has been every day of his presidency. tom rice's statement says, i was on the floor of the house of representatives when the rioters were beating on the door with tear gas, zip tie restraints and pipe bombs in their possession. it is only by the grace of god and the blood of the capitol police that the death toll was not much, much higher. you mean higher like 17? the number of people murdered in marjory stoneman douglas high school in parkland, florida. tom rice and donald trump and every other republican in
washington did absolutely nothing in response to that mass murder at that high school. nothing. that mass murder was a lot scarier for those kids in that high school than it was for tom rice when he was on the floor hearing that beating on the door. those kids in that high school heard a lot worse than beating on the door and suffered much more than any member of congress did. i almost never use the word "brave" to describe doing the ruth thing in congress. the bravest votes i ever saw in congress were some democrats who voted for a tax increase in 1993, knowing that it was going to cost them their seat in the house and the senate. but they thought it was the fiscally responsible thing to do. that's what i thought a brave vote was until now. the ten republicans who voted for impeachment in the house today each cast a very brave vote, possibly the bravest vote i've ever seen.
all the democrats who voted for impeachment, especially the most publicly recognizable of them, cast what also might be the bravest vote of their lives even though it was not a politically difficult vote for them to cast. it was a brave vote because today's vote for impeachment came with the threat of death, the threat of being assassinated by donald trump's homicidal maniacs who invaded the capitol and might throw their guns in the car and get out on the interstate and go looking for those ten republicans and 220 democrats who cast that vote against donald trump today. someone who said they wanted to hang mike pence at the capitol, someone who says he wants to kill for donald trump, might live in tom rice's district and have a very easy time finding him. maybe someone like that could live in any of the districts of those republicans who voted against donald trump today in
any of the districts of the democrats who voted against donald trump today. this is the most dangerous time to be a member of congress since the morning of 9/11 when the planes were in the air and the capitol building was the biggest target in washington. republican congressman dan newhouse of washington cast a very brave vote for impeachment today. >> we are all responsible. my colleagues are responsible for not condemning rioters this past year like those who barricaded the doors of the seattle police department and attempted to murder the officers inside. others, including myself, are responsible for not speaking out sooner before the president misinformed and inflamed a violent mob who tore down the american flag and brutally beat capitol police officers. madam speaker, we must all do better. these articles of impeachment are flawed, but i will not use process as an excuse.
there is no excuse for president trump's actions. the president took an oath to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. last week there was a domestic threat at the door of the capitol, and he did nothing to stop it. that is why with a heavy heart and clear resolve, i will vote yes on these articles of impeachment. >> you might not like everything you heard him say there, but he took his life in his hands to make that speech and to cast that vote today. another republican from the state of washington, jamie herrera-beutler cast a very brave vote for impeachment today. >> with truth comes love and we could use that right now. my vote to impeach our sitting president is not a fear based decision. i am not choosing a side. i'm choosing truth. it's the only way to defeat fear.
>> ten house republicans defeated fear and did the right thing. what do we say to them now? what do we say to liz cheney and the nine other house republicans who finally, finally did the right thing today and bravely voted to impeach donald trump? i don't know. i know that we should never forget what they did that led us to this point, but i don't know what to say to them now. it takes a much wiser person than i to answer that question. and so we are joined tonight by democratic congressman adam schiff of california. he's chairman of the house intelligence committee and was the lead house manager in the first senate impeachment trial of donald trump. chairman schiff, thank you very much for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. i really do want to turn to you for this question because i've been wrestling with it. when i was working in the
senate, i would be in very tough battles against some republicans over a tax bill and they would be trying to defeat everything we were trying to do. and then the next week some of them would be with us on environmental legislation, so it was very, very easy to forget what happened last week and move on to the next thing and always be grateful for the moments and the days that they were on your side. i don't know what to do with this. i don't know what to do with four years, five years in some cases including the first presidential campaign of enabling, aiding and abetting donald trump in all of his poisonous activities and then today doing the right thing. what do you say to those ten republicans now? >> well, you know, i have been thinking a lot about this question too, and i keep coming back to something that robert once wrote, power doesn't corrupt as much as it reveals. it shows us who we are. and the course of this presidency, i thought about that in context of the people who
debase themselves, willing to do anything to sit at donald trump's table, to share that power, who are willing to fore sake everything they claim to have believed in until they got to a certain point. and you saw someone destroy the independence of the justice department like bill barr, reach a certain point where even he couldn't go beyond that. and you see my colleagues in congress who even after the bloody insurrection are back on the house floor still trying to discredit the election, propagate the big lie of donald trump. but you see other republicans like the ten today who reached the point where they could go no farther. and, you know, i think it is a function of human nature. and that is, you know, it's neither black nor white. there are a lot of shades of gray. and, you know, these situations really test who we are, say a lot about who we are. our capacity for craven conduct,
when ambition tempts us. so, i think it's a mixture of gratitude that they finally decided they've had enough. but at the same time anger that it took so long. >> donald trump has criticized mike pence a bit for his followers in the last -- just in the last few days. enough so that they were chanting that they wanted to hang him. you're a lot more -- you're very recognizable. donald trump has been attacking you for many years. what is your sense of your own safety right now both in washington and in your home congressional district? >> well, you know, i think like many of my colleagues, you know, profound concerns over safety. it was interesting, lawrence, while this mob was, you know,
breaking glass and trying to get into the house floor, i had a number of republicans say to me, you need to stay out of sight. i know who these people are. i can talk to these people. you're in a completely different situation. and, you know, i felt in one way touched that they were concerned for my safety. but at the same time, i recognized that my safety was imperilled because the they joined the president in telling big lies about me for the last four years. and so, you know, i think all of us whether we're well-known or not well-known these days feel a huge sense of risk to ourselves, to our families. this is not something i ever expected to experience in the united states of america. but then again i never expected to have national guard members sleeping in the corridors of the congress of the united states. the scenes around the capitol, lawrence, they remind me when i visit baghdad, the fortified
greeting zone in baghdad. when you have large barricades and fences and barbed wire and troops with ak-47s protecting the institutions. that is not what i'm used to seeing in america. i tell you i would love to see today -- you talk about where this day is placed in history. i would like to believe that this is the day that america got off the road towards autocracy and got back on the path our founders envisioned and that is of a democratic republic. >> let's listen to what the republican leader of the house said today on the house floor. >> the president bears responsibility for wednesday's attack on congress by mob rioters. he should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. these facts require immediate action by president trump. accept his share of
responsibility, quell the bruling unrest and ensure president-elect biden is able to successfully begin his term. >> and of course he called for a possible censure motion against the president and his comments. what was your reaction to that? >> kevin mccarthy is as close as you'll find to pure ambition unadulterated by any sense of principle. unfortunately that's who he is. i think anyone who has worked with him, spoken to him, realizes that's all he amounts to. that's kevin mccarthy trying to maintain the votes he needs in caucus, kevin mccarthy figuring out how does he get the money to start flowing again from the lobbyists on wall street.
that's all that motivates this man. he was the biggest water carrier for this president in the entire congress. he debased himself time and time again. he showed no independence from this president. so, frankly, you know, anything kevin mccarthy has to say right now ought to be greeted with the most profound skepticism. >> chairman adam schiff, thank you very much for starting off our discussion tonight. and i hope that a mask helps keep you safe in more ways than one these days. thank you very much, mr. chairman. >> thank you, lawrence. coming up, ten republican votes for impeachment in the house. how many votes for conviction in the senate? next. feeling sluggish or weighed down? it could be a sign that your digestive system isn't working at its best. taking metamucil everyday can help. metamucil psyllium fiber gels to trap and remove the waste that weighs you down. it also helps lower cholesterol and slow sugar absorption to promote healthy blood sugar levels. so you can feel lighter and more energetic.
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congresswoman liz cheney voted for impeachment today but did not make a speech on the house floor. in his closing argument for the democrats, read his case against the president. >> representative chaney from wyoming, a conservative republican said this, the president of the united states summoned the mob, assembled the mob, and lit the flame of this attack. >> joining discussion now msnbc national affairs analyst and executive editor of "the recount" and alex wagner, contributor. let me begin with you, alex. you grew up in washington. i think you're in washington tonight, aren't you? >> i am, indeed.
>> what is it like -- just what is that atmosphere like for you, especially someone who has lived and breathed it for so long? >> yeah, it is unrecognizable, lawrence. i have a lot of friends from washington who are still here, and the sense of doom, the sense of fear, the sense of a lost america is just -- it's in the air. the entire city is on lockdown. i mean, there's covid, of course, but there are gates erected all over the city, boarded up businesses. you can't get anywhere near the capitol. there are national guardsmen. there are 100 of them staying in my hotel tonight. they're everywhere along the streets. it does feel like the green zone. it does feel like baghdad. it feels like a foreign capital in an unstable country somewhere else in the world, only it's washington, d.c. it feels apocalyptic. i spent the day yesterday with erik swalwell and we walked down the middle of independence
avenue because you could walk down the middle of the street. there were no cars no, pedestrians. just law enforcement. it is eerie and terrifying. >> let's listen to what jason crow had to stay about this impeachment vote and what was at stake for some of his colleagues. >> i had a lot of conversations with republican colleagues last night and a couple of them broke down in tears talking to me saying they're afraid for their lives if they vote for this impeachment. my response was not to be unsympathetic but welcome to the club. that's leadership. >> john heilemann, i thought i had seen everything in senate and house votes. i have never once seen a vote before where people were fearing for people's lives based on how they would cast their vote. >> yeah, you made the point earlier in the show, lawrence, in our years of observing washington, d.c., we calibrate bravery in terms of the risk to one's political life and one's
political fortunes and one's ability to raise money, one's standing with the coalition of the voters. these are never -- even when we use the word existential we don't mean existential yet in this case it's one of the many profoundly jarring and maybe paradigm shifting elements of what happened last wednesday where suddenly, you know, on both sides of the aisle it's the thing that although the results of the impeachment vote were almost entirely partisan and almost entirely predictable, the one way the capitol has been unified is even the furthest extremes of republicans on the ruth, people are, i think, you know -- this is giving them a new perspective on what it means to go to work every day and to, quote, lay your life on the line for your job. >> let's listen to what congressman jamie raskin had to say on the house floor today. >> they may have been hunting
for pence and pelosi to stage their coup, but every one of us in this room right now could have died and it's a bit much to be hearing that these people would not be trying to destroy our government and kill us if we just weren't so mean to them. >> alex, jamie raskin is going to go to another level of recognition in washington. he's going to be the lead prosecutor in the next senate impeachment trial of donald trump, and he's going to have a much more receptive senate than adam schiff. you have mitch mcconnell saying, i won't decide how i'm going to vote on this until i hear the evidence and the legal arguments in the senate trial. so, this might actually be a real senate trial. >> it might be, lawrence, but i mean, let's just keep in mind it is mitch mcconnell we're talking about and he is a political tactician more than he is a great statesman and a great
unifier of the country. i think it's interesting that he's kept the door open to impeachment, but i think it's telling that he did not want to call the senate back in session to hold this trial expeditiously and actually get donald trump out of power. i certainly believe he's considering seriously what it would mean to oust trump figuratively, if not literally, from the republican party. and i think that's on the table. but i definitely think there's a question of whether he has support among his caucus. there's a looming question about whether he might not try to weaponize the impeachment trial in the beginning days of the biden administration. that is not going to be convenient for biden who is trying to get his cabinet confirmed. it could muddy biden's central message, which is to unite the country. this is mitch mcconnell. he lets no crisis go wasted. so, it's very much a situation that is developing. >> john heilemann, by the time this trial starts in the senate, there will be two more votes for impeachment -- for conviction
and removal in the senate, and those votes will be flying in from georgia. >> yeah. and, you know, i think -- your point i think continues to be right. i do think alex -- everything with mcconnell needs to be measured in terms of only one thing. starting now everything only mitch mcconnell cares about -- or starting the day after the georgia runoffs made him a minority leader, everything is calibrated into how do i get back in the majority two years from now. in 2009 he was the minority leader at the beginning of the obama administration. barack obama was an extremely popular incoming president and he obstructed obama at every turn. he was awarded for that tactic. i think having learned that lesson, i think anyone who thinks there's going to be a great era of good feeling between him and joe biden is smoking something. but i think the other
calculation alex put forward, i think mcconnell is going to judge this question of how the senate trial should be conducted, how he should vote in it, how he should true to lobby his fellow republican senators on it is going to be a decision made in a careful, plotting, mcconnell-like way in terms of one thing and one thing only, what is -- does it increases my chances of becoming majority leader in two years or not? >> john highland, alex wagner, thank you both for joining us tonight. >> thanks lawrence. >> thanks lawrence. up next senator amy klobuchar will join us. she's participating in the plans for the inauguration on january 20th. we'll ask her about the security arrangements and becoming senate impeachment trial.
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official today, he made a written statement saying he will not use the senate leadership's emergency power to call the senate into session for an immediate impeachment trial. nbc news reports that in a note to republican senators, senator mcconnell said, quote, i have not made a final decision as to how i will vote and i intend to listen to the arguments. joining us now is amy klobuchar of minnesota, member of the senate judiciary committee. and more importantly this week she is a member of the joint congressional committee on inaugural ceremonies. senator klobuchar, we both know that that inaugural ceremony's committee is normally a fun place to be and it's an honor and you're besieged by people who are trying to get tickets to get closer to the podium. this is a completely different situation. you've got 20,000 troops already deployed in washington. what is your sense and what can you tell us about the security
planning? how confident are you in the security planning so far? >> well, lawrence, first i want to make clear, it is still an honor to be one of the six people on the committee, and it is still an honor to be part of this very important moment, this peaceful transfer of power to our next president, joe biden, our next vice president, kamala harris. and i don't want to let any of those thugs and insurrectionists and mobsters take away from this moment on january 20th. it is why we are clearly going forward with this inauguration. it is why president-elect biden has been so clear he wants to go forward. it is why members of congress will be there behind him, including the leadership from both parties, including vice president pence. and so that is a really important moment for our country. yes, it will look different. people will be sitting six feet apart. it is just simply the official
guess kind of like for the state of the union because the president-elect and all of us made the decision together that we didn't want it to be an unsafe event, a superspreader event. then you go to the security. and i can tell you that senator blunt and i led a bipartisan briefing of the senate yesterday, and most every senator was on there with the secret service that is heading up this event as they always do with people from the fbi and others. and as you know from seeing the troops coming in, they are going all out on our security for that event because they also understand how important this is that we cannot and we will not have a repeat of what happened on january 6th in the capitol. >> let's listen to what congressman seth moulton said today on the house floor. >> there are more troops right now in washington, d.c. than in afghanistan. and they are here to defend us
against the commander in chief, the president of the united states and his mob. i would ask my colleagues to look at the faces of those young americans defending democracy, defending us, and find an ounce of their courage to do the right thing, as several republicans have, and take a tough vote for the future of democracy. >> congressman moulton of course a combat veteran himself. what has that troop presence meant to the workings of the house and senate and the feeling in that area that is now being protected? >> well, i think it's a necessity because of what happened, because there wasn't the preparation that should have occurred. i think we all know that. there will be major investigations after this inauguration is completed, and there are ongoing, as you know,
prosecutions, cases being brought, a joint doj-fbi task force and sedition directly involved with cases coming out of what happened on january 6th. so, all of that can happen at the same time. but what is going to happen and what we don't want to forget is what is really a glorious moment where we are going to have a new president and our first african-american, asian-american woman vice president take the oath of office. so, my job along with the other members of that committee is to make sure that happens and that it happens in a dignified way. yes, the troops will be there, and it reminds us, as the congressman explained, of their sacrifice. but we have to remember we have one purpose, and that is to usher in a new administration and a new president. it's happened over and over again in american history. >>
senator amy klobuchar, thank you very much for joining us again tonight. >> thanks, lawrence. it was great to be on. >> thank you.
and up next, there's growing concern about possible members of congress on the republican side having provided reconnaissance to the attackers of the capitol. bertymutual.com to customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need? really? i didn't-- aah! ok. i'm on vibrate. aaah! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty.
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they're dangerous, crazy and dangerous. that's what some democratic members of the house believe about the most unhinged trump fanatics in their workplace. >> because there were qanon and white supremacist sympathizers and frankly white supremacist members of congress in that extraction point who i know and who i have felt would disclose my location and allow me to -- who would create opportunities to allow me to be hurt, kidnapped, et cetera.
and so i didn't even feel safe around other members of congress. >> some republican members are feeling threatened for the first time. alexander ocasio-cortez and many other democrats have been threatened every day of their service in congress. in an interview with rachel maddow tonight, new jersey congressman mikey cheryl had this to say about members of congress giving tours of the capitol to very suspicious looking people the day before the attack on the capitol. >> the only way these people, these groups, could have gotten into the complex is if another member of congress or their staff walked them in, and that was reiterated by the sergeant at arms on january 5th. to imagine that colleagues of mine could have aided and
abetted this is simply offensive and there's no way they can be allowed to continue to serve in congress. >> paul gosar is one of the suspected of aiding and invasion of the capitol. paul gosar tagged the organizer in a tweet a few hours before the invasion of the capitol. the tweet said, biden should concede. i want his concession on my desk tomorrow morning. don't make me come over there. top the steal 2021. is congressman paul gosar gravely mentally ill, fully delusional or is he a pathological liar? he's a member of congress and he's telling the president-elect that he wants his concession on his desk the next morning? what is wrong with this man? his brother tim gosar said this
about congressman gosar in an interview. he set a dangerous precedent in the ten years he's been in office. when you talk about what happened the other day, you're talking about treason, you're talking about over throwing the government. that's what this is. if that doesn't rise to the level of expulsion, what does? tim gosar joins us next. does? tim gosar joins us next. when it comes to laundry, everyone thinks their way is the right way. i wash on delicate. i just stuff everything in. you have to wash on cold, because it saves energy. the secret is, tide pods work no matter how you wash. so, everyone is right.
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republican paul gosar was the only member of the house who got a chance to speak about blocking the electoral college vote his state of arizona before the invasion of the capitol shutdown the debate. >> over 400,000 mail-in ballots were altered, switched from president trump to vice president biden or completely erased from president trump's totals. the proof is in the counting the
odds so likely that winning the mega millions is more probable. mr. speaker, can i have order in the chamber? >> the house will be in order. >> turns out he couldn't have order in the chamber. joining us now is tim gosar, the brother of arizona republican congressman paul gosar. and tim, let me start with something that caught me before the invasion of the capitol. i was watching your brother knowing that he's a dentist, which made the way he wears the mask even more peculiar to me. the mask was not covering his nose. it wasn't even covering his mouth. what explains that about a trained dentist? >> i would say that a couple of months before the election he was on camera saying that covid was overblown and that it would go away at the time of the election. so, you know, if you listen to paul, do so at your own risk.
i mean he's been in the health care profession his whole life yet makes those kinds of statements about covid putting people in harms way. >> what do you think should happen now after the invasion of the capitol? >> well, i think what's happened when you're an organizer, when you're a mastermind of a plot to do what was done last week, you're just as guilty as the mob that you besieged and took and overran the house. and so when that's the case you're just as guilty as the events and the people and what they did and the five people that lost their lives, so their blood on your hands. paul also swore to support the constitution of the united states against foreign and domestic. when you take that oath and you commit treason and insurrection,
aren't you the person that has committed those crimes, and aren't you the enemy that you're sworn to protect us from? >> so you want your brother expelled? >> absolutely. absolutely. he thumbed his nose at his oath and put people in harms way, and five people are dead because of the events that he set in motion, that he masterminded and that he organized. >> you and two of your siblings actually appeared in a campaign ad against your brother saying that you were going to vote for his opponent in 2018. so what have the family gatherings been like since then? >> well, i don't gather with paul, lawrence. i don't have a relationship with paul. i have a zero-tolerance for white supremacy and hate and people that won't tell the truth, people that don't have integrity or character. and i -- i know that that's who paul is, and i don't have a
relationship and won't with him. >> has he changed during the trump years? >> i would say, lawrence, that he's changed ever since he became a member of the house. he was an original birther where he said that president obama was an illegitimate president and wasn't even a citizen of this country. and when he called the pope a leftist, doing the bidding for the left. he told in 2016, he said get over it, elections have consequences. in 2017 he said that george soros was a nazi sympathizer and had given up his people to the nazis. and then we have this abhorrent, unbelievable event he organized, masterminded and put into effect. >> tim gosar, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
i can imagine how difficult this must be for you to watch and to see your brother's involvement in it. thank you very much for joining us. >> lawrence, thanks for having me tonight. >> thank you. tim gosar get tonight's "last word." "the 11th hour" with brian williams starts now. well, good evening once again. day 1,455 of the trump administration, 7 days until the inauguration of joe biden as our 46th president. it's now been exactly one week since insurrectionests, american citizens looted and desecrated our capitol. this dark day in modern american history now takes its place among all the other dark days we have witnessed over these past four years. this president will now leave office having lost the house, senate and white house, having lost re-election, having lost the