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tv   The Week With Joshua Johnson  MSNBC  April 10, 2021 8:00pm-9:00pm PDT

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way they want to work. but that's all only possible with support and with care, with, dare i say it, the proper infrastructure to enable them to do both. that is all the time i have for today. i'm alicia menendez. i'll see you back here tomorrow, 6:00 p.m. eastern for more american voices, but for now i hand it over to my colleague, joshua johnson. >> you teed it up perfectly, infrastructure. the infrastructure that allows women to mother and work as they see fit is part of the debate about infrastructure in washington. so we'll definitely get into that in the next few minutes. thank you, alicia. hello to you. it is very good to be with you tonight, including to talk about infrastructure. because the latest polls show widespread support for president biden's plan. next week, both chamber of congress return to begin revising the package.
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how much will the plan's popularity help get it through the senate? also, the prosecution in derek chauvin's murder trial will soon rest its case. how will the defense present its side? we'll have a live update from minneapolis. and former congresswoman katie hill joins us. she resigned over allegations of inappropriate relationships with a campaign staffer. we'll discuss a privacy lawsuit she just lost and why congressman matt gaetz is trying to involve here in his situation. from nbc news world headquarters in new york, i'm joshua jonls welcome to "the week." let's do some quick word association. first thing that pops into your head. ready? infrastructure. whatever you thought of, it's part of the congressional debate over president biden's multi-trillion dollar plan. right now it seems different things are popping into each party's heads, and that could
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complicate things. republican lawmakers are thinking of roads and bridges. democrats in the white house are thinking of anything that helps you work and lead a productive fulfilling life. so they're not thinking the same thing. what are the american people thinking? well, new polls out this week show that three out of five americans overall support the infrastructure plan. but support for some parts of it is even higher. the most popular investments include modernizing veterans' hospitals and better caregiving for the elderly and disabled. those don't typically fit the bill, so to speak, when it comes to infrastructure. but that's typical for this bill. politico playbook unofficially broke down mr. biden's plan. it found just over $800 billion of that fits the traditional definition of infrastructure. this used to be a bipartisan issue on capitol hill. today's political polarization has reshaped it. so with democrats divided on how
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to proceed and republicans refusing to negotiate, where does that leave a bill that is overall quite popular? the question is the same when it comes to gun legislation. nearly 70% of americans support stricter laws, yet congress has passed nothing into law in 26 years. later in the program, we will reimagine america's gun laws. we're drafting a bill with your help. you have sent us lots of suggestions -- background checks and red flag laws, and even a new assault weapons ban. what could we all come up with that would satisfy americans across the political divide? we'll get to that in our next hour. we begin with the latest on the infrastructure bill. joining us now, eugene daniels, white house correspondent and playbook coauthor for politico. he's also a msnbc contributor. eugene, let me start with just the dynamics of the negotiations on capitol hill. we have this conversation about reconciliation, whether senate
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democrats could move forward an infrastructure bill in a filibuster-free way. it looks like that can potentially proceed. does that mean the conversation about bipartisanship stops? or is there still a push to create a bill that both parties can support? >> yeah, i think there is still this want for that to happen. joe biden really does want to work with people across the aisle. that is something that is in his blood. he remembers the old days of the senate, where that was something that was really a part of him. working together, figuring things out, compromise, which feels like a dirty word nowadays. so i think that is true. you also have joe manchin, who has said he doesn't really want them to use reconciliation and wants to see some movement, some conversations happening. the problem is, democrats are using, like you said, this kind of evolution of the word
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infrastructure, right? it's not just roads and bridges and railways and rural broadband. it is also the caregiving aspect of it. and the question -- i've been talking to a lot of people about this, and i said, do you think the american people are going to have an issue with the question of, what is infrastructure? and what i keep hearing is, the american people care about things that work for them. they are -- like, you showed all of those things that are so popular with the american people. whether you call them infrastructure or not is probably not at top of mind. but they're not going to get a bunch of republicans to sign on to this huge bill or this proposal that they have, if it turns into a bill. and it's unlikely even that they would get a bunch of -- you know, even ten republicans in the senate for a skinny infrastructure bill. and i think that's something that they would want to do. >> i want to make note of that poll that we just showed, that the bill has majority support from the american people in general and also from a majority to have independents. the latest polling shows that it's about a quarter democratic, a quarter republican, and half independent.
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so that is a significant portion of the economy or of the electorate. however, we just passed a multitrillion dollar bill. the president is proposing another multitrillion dollar bill. he's asking for a lot of money right now. and the revenue side of this to pay for all of these, that hasn't really coalesced. there's got to be a limit as to what even congressional democrats are willing to spend without a revenue plan. >> yeah, you know, in his infrastructure and jobs plan is this 28% corporate tax rate. there's a conversation of raising taxes for people making more than $400,000 a year, as well. raising taxes on the wealthy, raising taxes on corporate interests and organizations, that's popular with the american people, as well. it's not popular with the republicans on capitol hill, but it is popular among the
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american people, especially those -- you know, the everyday working people. something that i think joe biden and the administration are really banking on is that after a year of this pandemic, where the government has had to give people more than they have and done things differently than they have before, they see that there's maybe an opening for bigger government. and joe biden has tried to cement this legacy of, you know, the bigger the government, the better. and i think that's something he's leaning into. there used to be deficit hawks in the democratic party. even they are -- you know, they're extinct or not there at all. and i think that is something that he's banking on. >> before i have to let you go, eugene, what is your sense of this executive order that was signed this week about gun violence? does that mean that he's pushing the prospect of legislation on guns further away, or is this an overture to talk about legislation? >> i think the latter there.
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you know, in his speech, when he -- from the rose garden, joe biden bought up three bills that have passed the house, that have something to do with gun safety legislation. and he wants the senate to pass it. the filibuster is still there. we've been talking about that for months now. i don't see that happening. but there's a lot of movement every time there's a mass shooting. congress was gone for two weeks. we'll see when they get back on monday if that momentum is still there. but something when i talk to gun safety advocates and groups, they say now is the time for that to happen. now is the time for a bill or some bills to actually pass and be signed into law. because the nra has been hit by scandal after scandal. they filed bankruptcy earlier this year, so they don't have the levers of power at the nra anymore as much as they did on capitol hill. so gun safety advocates are feeling hopeful in a way that i think surprises most reporters who are kind of cynical about this stuff at this point, because nothing has happened for so long.
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>> eugene daniels of politico, appreciate you starting us off. thanks very much. let's continue now with jennifer ruben, opinion writer for "the washington post" and an msnbc contributor. jennifer, let's continue with that line in term of the popularity of infrastructure. you wrote in your latest column how this plan seems to be kind of selling itself, because of its popularity. there's the popularity of the ideas in the plan and then there's the popularity of the plan with the democratic stamp on it and joe biden's name on it. almost like where you would get a different political response if you asked people, do you like obamacare? or if you ask people, do you like the fact that your kids can stay on your insurance until they're 26? very different responses. is this that again? are we about to see history repeat itself? >> well, i think it is right that if you say anything with biden's name in it, republicans will say no. that's what we saw on the rescue plan. that's what we're seeing on the infrastructure plan. that's what we're seeing on just about anything that come out of his mouth.
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republicans have gotten it into their heads rightly or wrongly, that their interests lie in complete obstruction, complete defiance of the president. but you are right that the american people love this stuff. and you think about it, why wouldn't you want an improved caregiver core of people? why wouldn't you want faster internet? why wouldn't you want better v.a. hospitals? these are really popular things. and it's interesting, we all call it the infrastructure bill. biden calls it the american jobs bill. and i think your observation is that this is really anything that helps you do your job is how he is seeing it and, i think how people react to it. and as you mention, it's actually very popular to have corporations pay for this. in fact, it's more popular than just deficit spending. people see corporations have gotten away with murder. they had a tax rate that went down to 21% in the last administration.
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they have 50 or so companies last year that didn't pay any income tax whatsoever. they got billions in bailout money. the average american says, why should i have to pay taxes? let them pay some taxes for a while. so i think this is a very shrewdly put together bill, where he can claim, i'm a fiscal conservative, and come up with a spending formula at least for now that seems to pay with it for money that the american people don't mind taking out of corporations. >> what's your sense of whether or not republicans will put forth a counterproposal? do you expect it to remain nonnegotiable, or do you think the gop sees the poll numbers and might want to get some more of that support, particularly since independents are such a large part of the electorate and independents seem to like this idea? >> it really boils down to those ten republicans who did put forth a bill in response to the american rescue plan. it was quite puny in comparison to the bill that finally passed. but you have to look at those ten republicans and say, do they
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really want to get into this? or have they kind of signed up for the idea that we'll just defy anything he says. we'll take no credit, take no blame, and we just hope this all thing kind of burns and crashes. or they say, gosh, we're looking at a lot of economic numbers that say second quarter, maybe 10% increase in growth. big unemployment drop throughout the rest of this year. and maybe we want to get some of that credit, too. so i think it is a bit of a soul-searching exercise for those ten republicans. if they want to get into the game, they have to put something serious in front of them. and biden again, very shrewdly has said, fine, put something out there, but tell me how you're going to pay for it. otherwise, we don't have much to talk about. so he's really kind of daring them, calling their bluff to say, fine, you want
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bipartisanship, show me your cards. >> before i have to let you go, what's your sense of how this plan survives when it goes through the meat grinder of markup in congress? both houses are back in session this coming week. we'll start hashing through what the details look like, what's in, what's out. are there any parts of this plan that you think are the most vulnerable to the markup process right now, at least as the plan stands right now? >> well, if you are aiming to get those ten votes for a filibuster-proof majority, it's not going anywhere. and i don't think you're ever going to come up with a plan. i do this that the plan as is is quite popular, and if they can work with people on the conservative side of the democratic party like joe manchin and come up with a funding mechanism he can live with -- he doesn't like 28%. maybe he likes 26% and some other payment. if you can do that, work with the other end of the party, i think they will pass this and push it through. you're absolutely right that joe biden says, times have
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changed. people are willing and eager to have more government, and i'm going give them stuff they really, really like, and that's not a bad political strategy, by the way. >> spending as an investment for the economy, there's an argument to be made that that can also reap revenues, can reap dividends for the economy. i'll be interested to see if that's part of the revenue argument of spending money to make much more in the future by improving roads, bridges, airports, seaports and so on, but a conversation for another day. jennifer ruben of "the washington post," good to see you. thanks very much. coming up, the defense in derek chauvin's murder trial is gearing up to make its case. the prosecution could rest its case soon. we'll look at how this beak's testimony went and look ahead at what's next. also, former congresswoman katie hill resigned after a sex scandal in office. she sued over explicit photos of her that got published and lost that case. she joins us later this hour. plus, surveys show that americans are ready for new laws to reduce gun violence. so we asked for your solutions.
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what did you suggest, and what would it take to become law? that's coming up later as "the week continues on msnbc. customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need? i mean it... uh-oh, sorry... oh... what? i'm an emu! no, buddy! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪ ♪ (car audio) you have reached your destination. (vo) the subaru outback. dog tested. dog approved. i've got moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are getting clearer. ♪
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week two of the derek chauvin murder trial wrapped up yesterday with testimony from police officials and medical experts. on monday, minneapolis police chief took the stand. he testified that derek chauvin broke protocol by pressing his knee on george floyd's body. >> that in no way shape or form is anything that is by policy, it is not part of our training, and it is certainly not part of our ethics or our values. >> yesterday, we heard from hennepin county's medical examiner, dr. andrew baker. minneapolis is the seat of hennepin county. dr. baker said the pressure mr. chauvin used overwhelmed george floyd's heart.
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>> in my opinion, the law enforcement subdual, restraint, and the neck compression was just more than mr. floyd could take, by virtue of those heart conditions. >> mr. baker did not include a lack of oxygen, called asphyxia, on the autopsy as a cause of death. forensic pathologist dr. lindsay thomas had a different view. >> i think the primary mechanism was asphyxia or low oxygen. >> nbc's shaquille brewster is covering the trial and joins us now with a look back at this week. shaq, what have you learned in terms of the reaction inside the courthouse from the jury and from the family? >> well, joshua, you know, this is something that we are relying on two pool reporters, two reporters inside the courtroom who go every day. it's a rotating set of reporters. and we rely on them for their views, what they're seeing from the family, what they're seeing from the jury. and it seems as if the jury is very engaged in what they are hearing from. as we look at the prosecution's case and what we've heard from
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so far, you see a narrative arc to what they're presenting. we started last week with the bystanders, the people who were there on the video, including that minor, 17-year-old darnella frazier, who recorded that video and posted it to facebook and that is what sparked everything. that's arguably why we have this case right now and this trial right now. we heard from the bystanders. we heard from some of the first responders on the scene. we heard from the pandemics, for example. then this week, we heard from use of force experts. we heard from the police chief, as you just played there. we heard from people who study use of force examples and experiences of officers. and then it ended with the medical testimony, hearing from the medical experts including the actual medical examiner of hennepin county, the person who was the one person to do the official autopsy of george floyd. and their messaging throughout, joshua, has been consistent. they have been saying that derek chauvin was the cause of george floyd's death, that george
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floyd's death was asphyxiation, even though the medical examiner's report didn't use that word, he did say it was the subdual, the neck compression that was the result of george floyd east death. it was consistent testimony for the last two weeks. emotional testimony at many times. according to those pool reports and according to what we're seeing, that glimpse of what it looks like inside the courtroom, it's been compelling testimony for those jurors, joshua. >> shaq, there was an article in "the minnesota spokesman recorder," which is a black-owned newspaper that took some issue with the depiction that chief arredondo made of the minneapolis police department in terms of the way that it trains its officers and uses force. i'm oversimplifying, but basically, people quoted in the article said, that's not the minneapolis pd that we know. that is as dulcet and thoughtful as the chief depicted it to be. what is your sense of the way that this testimony is playing
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in minneapolis, particularly since chief arredondo has had his own background in terms of his efforts to change minneapolis pd and to seek accountability from the department? >> right. you know, it's no credit that there is no love lost between the minneapolis police department and many members of the community in minneapolis. those relationships have been fractured for so long. and the thing is, that has been part of police chief arredondo's mission and his vision. trying to repair that and rebuild the trust since he took office. he's only been in office for about three to four years at this point, but this is a police chief that was the one who fired the four officers, all four officers involved in george floyd's death. he fired them within 24 hours. back in 2007, he was the one who sued the minneapolis police department. one of about four or five officers that sued the minneapolis police department, alleging racial discrimination. he's the department's first black police chief.
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he's someone who, in conversations that i have, for example, with the former chief public defender, mary moriarty, she says and mentions how he is someone who when he came into office, he wanted to change this department from one of a warrior mentality to a guardian mentality. and i think that article you saw there reflected the frustration and the gap between what his vision is and what people in the community believe the police department is doing right now. he's very clear. he respects the sanctity of life. he wants that guardian mentality from his officers. but he is also open, and i think he would be one of the first to tell you that his department has not reached that vision just yet. and i think that is the gap and that's the frustration that was reflected in that article, the idea that he was talking about a department and about training policies that are not recognized by members of the community, at least just yet. despite his best efforts. >> and finally, shaq, what should we expect from the trial next week? i believe the prosecution is
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really close to wrapping up their case. like, monday, tuesday, they might rest their case. is that it? >> that's exactly right. we think it's monday or tuesday. we know for sure it will be early next week. we know that because the judge made a comment last week saying to one of the witnesses, one of the police trainers -- by the way, we've had about six police officers come up and testify against derek chauvin. well, there was one who trains on ems and who trains on cpr who the defense wants to call back. and the judge said, we'll have you come back on tuesday. so we expect probably by tuesday for the defense to start making their case, which means the prosecution will wrap up their case by then. i also want to say that, you know, this has been incredibly emotional experience for the family of george floyd. we talked about the emotional testimony that we've heard in the courtroom. there was one moment, and i think we have the tape ready to play, but i'll set it up by saying that there was one moment where they not only played george floyd's death but they
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stopped it and played it in slow motion. it was when dr. tobin, one of the medical experts came up and testified. i want to you play a little bit -- i want to you watch a little bit of that. there's where dr. tobin pinpointed pretty much the moment he thought george floyd lost his life. >> you can see his eyes. he's conscious. and then you see that he isn't. that's the moment the life goes out of his body. >> that was a moment that you saw the niece of george floyd, who was in the courtroom, cry and break down, and at a certain point, she had the leave the courtroom. the family of george floyd who's watching in an overflow room also said that was the moment they had to leave, because they just needed to be with one another. jeff. >> thank you, shaq. >> josh, i'm sorry. >> no problem. thank you, shaq, for the latest
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on that. but we'll also have more tomorrow night at 9:00 with a special report on the trial. we'll have extended clips from this week's testimony and expert analysis. that's tomorrow night at 9:00 right here. and that is right after the mehdi hasan show. lina hidalgo will joins, plus dr. anthony fauci will help with the change in public messaging surrounding covid. we could clear things right now about covid, including whether it's time to vaccinate kids. nothing against dr. fauci, but i've got dr. lipi roy ready to answer questions when we come back. ♪ smooth driving pays off. saving is easy when you're in good hands. allstate. click or call for a quote today. ♪♪ making a difference, starts with making a commitment. a promise to others.
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i'm not sure if there's anything i can say to my family members to convince them to take the covid-19 vaccine. i'm not even sure if i'm convinced. hi darius, i think that people respond more to what we do than what we say. so after looking at all the data and the science about these vaccines, i got the vaccine. and i made sure my mom and dad got the vaccine. because these vaccines are safe.
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♪ ♪ america continues to make progress with vaccinations. according to the white house, one quarter of all u.s. adults are now fully vaccinated. more than 114 million americans have received at least one dose. the u.s. is also averaging 3 million shots a day. one of the next steps may be
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vaccinating children. yesterday, pfizer asked the fda to expand use of its vaccine to adolescents, ages 12 to 15. pfizer says its drug was safe and 100% effective for that age group in clinical trials. let's get some more of your covid questions with dr. lipi roy, the medical director of covid isolation and quarantine sites for housing works here in new york. dr. roy, good evening. good to see you. >> great to see you, joshua. how are you doing, my friend? >> i am good, other than the fact that i can't seem to get my vaccine appointment in new york. i am fighting real hard with the website. every time you go to click it, it's like -- i feel like, who was it? linus and lucy with the football? you know what i'm talking about? where like, you're just about to click it, and lucy goes -- and the appointment is gone? other than that -- i'm not bitter at all. but i'm doing fine. any way, let's goat viewer questions. i could bore with you my vaccine worries all night long, particularly because some folks
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are concerned about what may happen after they get vaccinated. one viewer asks, why are we seeing reports of people fully vaccinated from months ago getting sick from covid now? dr. roy, i think this was always a possibility with the vaccine, even with their high efficacy. hey, dr. roy, can you hear me? >> sorry, i think i just lost connection. yeah, so just a reminder to the viewers, joshua. the purpose of these vaccines was to really reduce the risk of infection, but most importantly, severe disease, hospitalization and death. the trial data had already shown that people can still get the virus, but the risk of severe disease, illness, and death was severely reduced. so, we know that people can still, unfortunately, get infected and get sick. but as i said, the clinical
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priorities that are most important are still maintained. >> another viewer tweeted, the risk of getting covid-19 still outweighs the risk of blood clots or adverse events. people seem more afraid of queasiness and fainting than long covid and death? can you talk a little bit about what it means when you say the pros outweigh the cons, particularly with some of the news about a few blood clots reported with people who got the astrazeneca vaccine? >> yeah, that's a really great question. so, what we mean when we say that the pros of the vaccine outweigh the cons. as i just said, the pros or the benefits of the covid-19 vaccination includes significant reduction in severe disease, hospitalization, and death. those are the true benefits. and they far outweigh any of the side effects, for sure, which include pain at the injection site, fever, fatigue, all which
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are short acting and temporary and minor. in addition, we are unfortunately seeing some side effects, with, say, the astrazeneca vaccine, with clots. again, the studies so far that they have done in europe, at least, they have seen 222 cases amongst 34 million people who got the vaccine. so that's -- they're seeing one clot incident in 1 in 100,000 people. again, it's not nothing, but it's extremely rare compared to the vast number of people who are reaping the benefits of vaccination, joshua. >> anita asks, i'm not anti-vaccine but am extremely afraid to take the pfizer and moderna vaccine. i know people who actually had allergic reactions to both vaccines. has the johnson & johnson vaccine been tested on people who have extreme allergies? doctor? >> i want to address anita's point head-on. i'm so glad she's asking the question.
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let me first of all talk about data and then i'm going to share story, including my own personal story and experience. the clinical trial data was very clear in showing that the most common side effects were pain and redness and swelling at the injection site, fatigue, body aches, some fevers, chills, nausea. again, very minor. very few people get all of those. some people get one or two of those side effects. and it's again, temporary. one or two days and then you feel great. me, personally, i received the moderna vaccine. i had some of those side effects after the first and even a little worse after the second dose, but after two days, joshua, i really felt great. i'm now two, three months out, and i still feel great. as for the johnson & johnson vaccine, the side effects, again, very, very similar. pain at the injection site, fevers, chills, body aches, headaches. and again, temporary. you feel better after one or two days. joshua. >> before we go, we got a bunch
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of questions like this one from lucy, who asks, if someone is breast-feeding her child for a year and a half now, is it safe for her to get a covid vaccination? would it affect the baby negatively if the vaccine is transmitted through the breast milk? doctor? >> yeah, so another really great question by lucy. thanks for asking it. so as i think your viewers already know, the trials for these covid-19 vaccines were not performed on pregnant or breast-feeding women. that said, there was a study done by mt. sinai hospital here in new york looking at six women who received the pfizer vaccine and four breast-feeding women who received the moderna vaccine. and amongst all of those women, about 14 days after being fully vaccinated, the igg antibody, which is the antibody that's supposed to give you chronic immunity, was detected in all of those women. so we actually already know that breast milk confers -- sorry. breast milk can actually reduce viral transmission and infection
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of the host cells, but what we don't know yet is if these antibodies can confer immunity in the babies. we still need a lot more research and data to show that. i think for the most part, the people -- the scientists are actually -- actually find this to be good news, the breast milk is showing evidence of the antibodies. joshua? >> dr. lipi roy, always good to have you with us to answer some questions. thank you very much. >> you got it. have a good day. we now know the schedule for prince philip's funeral. those details and more on his extraordinary life, next. so abe and art can grow more plants. so they can hire vilma... and wendy... and me. so, more people can go to work. so, more days can start with kisses. when you buy this plant at walmart. ♪♪
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the united kingdom is an eight-day mourning period for prince philip, the husband of queen elizabeth ii. the duke of edinburgh was two months away from turning 100. a statement from the queen says he died yesterday at windsor castle.
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gun salutes rang. well wishers left flowers outside the royal family's residences. today, his eldest son, prince charles, paid tribute to his father. >> my dear papa was a very special person who i think above all else would have been amazed by the reaction and the touching things that have been said about him. and from that point of view, we are, my family, deeply grateful for all that. it will sustain us in this particular loss and at this particularly sad time. >> the duke of edinburgh was born prince fill. of greece and denmark before his family was exiled from greece when he was a baby. he met the future queen during a visit to britain's royal naval college where he was a cadet. he gave up his illustrious naval career to become royal consort when the former princess elizabeth ascended the throne. he work in the conservation as well as youth development programs. while the queen led the commonwealth, prince philip was seen as the leader of the
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family's home life. they celebrated their 73rd wedding anniversary last year. current and former u.s. presidents paid tribute to the duke. president biden called him a heck of a guy. according to buckingham palace, a small family funeral will take place next saturday at st. george's chapel. that's at windsor castle. the palace says prince harry will travel from the united states to attend the ceremony. his wife, meghan will remain at home on doctor's orders. she is about to have philip's 11th great grandchild. meanwhile in northern ireland, community leaders appealed for calm after the death of prince philip. they have been grieving something else, too. more than a week of rioting. in recent days in northern ireland has seen bricks thrown and cars set on fire and even a bus that got hijacked. at least 88 police officers have been injured. ten people, at least, have been arrested. leaders around the world and here in the u.s. are calling for peace.
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>> we are concerned by the violence in northern ireland, and we join the british, irish, and northern irish leaders in their calls for calm. we remain steadfast supporters of a secure and prosperous northern ireland in which all communities have a voice and enjoy the gains of the hard-won peace. >> reporter: the fear is that northern ireland will fall back into the violence it endured before the good friday agreement. today marks 23 years since that accord was reached. but today groups of young people have been battling the police, some are as young as 12 years old. why is this happening? one big reason, brexit. northern ireland is part of the united kingdom. the republic of ireland is in the eu. when the uk left the eu, that complicated trade with northern ireland's partner, ireland, and that enflamed a range of
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long-standing issues, including borders and national identity. the covid pandemic also made this worse. new trade rules under brexit delayed getting items to store shelves. demonstrations continued this evening as authorities continue to call for peace. we'll refocus on the u.s. when we come back. and a fight over the first amendment. former congresswoman katie hill is here to talk about her lawsuit against the "daily mail." and we'll get into why congressman matt gaetz is referencing her in an op-ed about his scandal. (mom vo) we fit a lot of life into our subaru forester. (dad) it's good to be back. (mom) it sure is. (mom vo) over the years, we trusted it to carry and protect the things that were most important to us. (mom) good boy. (mom vo) we always knew we had a lot of life ahead of us. (mom) remember this? (mom vo) that's why we chose a car that we knew would be there for us through it all. (male vo) welcome to the subaru forester. the longest-lasting, most trusted forester ever. i'm morgan, and there's more to me than hiv.
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it was a blow to former congresswoman katie hill in her lawsuit over leaked nude images. on wednesday, a california judge ruled that the "daily mail" did not break state law by publishing a nude photo of her without her consent. those photos were deemed a matter of public interest and therefore protected by the first amendment.
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in response, miss hill tweeted, quote, today we lost in court because a judge, not a jury, thinks revenge porn is free speech, unquote. she says she will appeal the decision and says this case affects any woman who plans to run for office. this case may be the most high-profile in recent memory, but her experience is unfortunately not unique. one study found that 1 in 25 americans has faced or been threatened with the release of non-consensual nude images. former california congressman katie hill joins us now. ms. hill, good evening. >> hi. thanks for having me. >> first of all, how are you after this ruling? i'm sure that this brought up the entire situation that happened with you and the photos and that can't be easy. >> yeah, i appreciate you asking. it's definitely not easy and it's really tough for anyone who decides to bring litigation forward, because you don't know what it's going to lead to. we knew going into this that
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this is uncharted territory. that, you know, the revenge porn -- the anti-revenge porn statute that is fragmented and it's in 48 different states and territories now, but there is not a single uniform law that goes across -- that's a federal statute. so it -- we knew that we were going to be really testing this and saying that revenge porn in zero circumstances should be of the public interest and should be free speech. but unfortunately, california, we were basically dismissed. the judge dismissed the case in an early stage before it was ever able to go to trial or before it was ever able to go to the full process of litigation, based on this notion that it was a first amendment issue. so it's tough. it sucks and it's something that i feel like i have to continue this for, because most victims do not have the ability or the resources to do so, and it has such big implications for any woman who wants to run for office and any woman who has a
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potentially powerful voice or is in a powerful position moving forward. >> let's separate in part the first amendment issue. there's the first amendment issue, which has to do with, first of all, not everything is protected or allowed under the first amendment, but the argument for protecting these pictures, as i understand it, is that there's a prevailing public interest in knowing about public officials, public figures that is different from a private individual. there's a first amendment law that offers some latitude when it comes to public officials and that that is part of what at least in the court's view, would allow these pictures to be part of the public record. they may be unseemly, but they're relevant as it relates to an elected official. how do you push back on that in terms of where in your view, where the line should be? >> the photos were illegally shared and illegally obtained,
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based on the revenge porn laws, based on the anti-cyber exploitation laws. the facts that came out, the facts that were reported on by every single major news outlet, including msnbc, were fair game. i'm not going to argue that for a second. that's totally able to be reported on and every outlet did. but they didn't show the photos. they didn't need to show the photos. the photos were gratuitous and they were done simply for click bait and for humiliation. and that's the point that we're trying to make. it should be -- you know, if we're setting this precedent that this is okay, if that means that any woman who runs for office -- and i'm saying women, because it's largely an issue that impacts women. 90% of victims of this are women. but we know that this -- where do we decide that the public interest lies? is this something that any candidate that's running for any office down to water board level can be said is the public interest? what about a woman who's running
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for a college-level seat on her student council and a blog, you know, a partisan blog is a news outlet, according to this? it's just, there's no limitations around it. and that can't be acceptable or it will be such a chilling effect on women who are willing to run, because they know that they have an eventual ex out there or they have any kind of a history whatsoever. and that's not what we want within our representative offices -- or within representation. >> let me ask you about congressman gaetz. he wrote a piece for "vanity fair" about your former colleague. he was one of the only members of the house to defend you back in 2019. on top of other allegations, there are reports that he has shown at least two lawmakers pictures and videos of nude women. that's reported by another news organization, i should note. you write, quote, if true, matt had engaged in the very practice he defended me from, unquote. what is your sense of this story? i feel like i as a journalist
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need to tread super carefully with this story, because there's a lot we don't know and very little that we have hard factually confirmed about what's what. but from your perspective, as someone who's been through this on a different personal level, how do you see it? >> i see it as, we -- based on the other reporting, there are multiple different individuals who have confirmed that the photos were shared on the house floor. i have a huge issue with the people who confirmed that information, but never went to house ethics, and instead anonymously gave it to reporters. potentially years after he did that. but that shows you to me that women remain unvalued. our bodies remain not ours. they are, you know, they're seen as either something that we can be shamed for or something that we can be -- be used as boasting rights or as bragging rights by men in sexual conquest. and i think that, you know, that -- the fact that that's happening on the house floor and
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that no one who saw it, no one who witnessed it came forward and reported it at the time that it happened is a testament to the fact that this needs to be seen as a crime across the entire country. and until it is -- and that's the reason they started the organization that i founded last year is pushing so hard for a criminal statute that criminalizes revenge porn across the entire country. until that happens, i don't think we'll see true progress on this issue and it means so much more than what it means for matt gaetz or for my case. >> former congresswoman katie hill, thank you for making time for us tonight. >> thank you. appreciate it. when we come back, a special hour where you make the rules. remanlds america's gun laws. i have been looking forward to this all week. you sent in lots of great ideas. we'll see what we can build together, next. inside you, electrify you. they grow from our imagination, but they can't be held back.
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hey, there. it's good to be with you tonight. did you hear about the latest mass shooting? if your answer was, which one, then you understand exactly what's wrong. we were thinking of the one in south carolina. a former nfl player is suspected of killing five people. and then killing himself. that may not even be the latest, just another in a series of shootings across the nation. tonight, president biden took to twitter to call on congress to take action, only days after he announced executive plans of his own. >> gun violence in this country


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