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tv   Deadline White House  MSNBC  May 5, 2021 1:00pm-3:00pm PDT

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there was reporteding from you and from your colleagues at the time that barr's statements and performances were out of staff and didn't match up with what we were learning in real time about the mueller report, and you have two federal judges saying just that, but what happens next? >> i'm not sure where the justice department goes from here or anyone goes from here. is this simply that will simply
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play out when this memo comes out and we get a greater sense about things or, you know, would the justice department go back and investigate? that is far-fetched at this point. i think the bottom line here putting all of the legal arguments aside and the nuances of this case, this matter that has come up, the -- at the heart of this issue is the fact that this judge is the third judge to go out and publicly criticize the attorney general and that's just something that's highly unusual. judges criticize the justice department all the time. they disagree with the justice department all the time, but they don't go as far as they have gone typically in this situation whether it was the opinion that you were reading from maybe berman jackson or it was the -- the ones from the judge overseeing the clinton case. there are a range of these things that have come out from these three judges that put the
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spotlight on how barr has publicly treated and privately mandled handled these politically charged investigations. >> and dan goldman, the memo that seems to address the decision that barr probably pounded his chest on most vocally that mueller and perhaps it started with a whisper, mueller refused to make a determination on justice, and it seems like she's calling b.s. on that. >> yes, she is and she's calling b.s. that this memo was prepared to advise bill barr on the decision making process. the decision was made, whether it was made by robert mueller who decided not to prosecute for whatever reason or the decision was made by bill barr because of his own slant on things and his own efforts to spin it and this
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memo which we will see which was ostensibly supposed to be legal advice really was political and strategic advice that judge jackson says was designed essentially to do what judge walton said he did which was to spin this in trump's favor, and remember, as you pointed out at the top of the show, this really changed the whole messaging about the mueller report. this was three full weeks, maybe even a little bit more before the redacted report came out and it completely misconstrued what mueller said. you played that clip, nicole, was there no collusion and -- collusion is not a legal term and robert mueller went through great pains to say that he did not look into collusion, but by the way, what we are also learning recently in the release of the sanctions on -- or the issuance of the sanctions on russia is that there was
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collusion. constantine kolevnick gave it to the russian intelligence which could use that to help influence the election. this was from start to finish bill barr's efforts to whitewash this investigation and it continued in the roger stone case and the michael flynn case, and we have yet another judge trying to call out a bad actor, a bad apple in a reputable organization, the doj and all our viewers should understand that this is exceedingly rare. no individual prosecutor and certainly no attorney general gets called out for basically lying to a judge on two or three occasions. >> i need you to say more. as someone outside the system it certainly seemed, you know, maybe a little after the fact.
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i know these things take a long time to work their way through the system, but i -- i'll find it and pull out the section. what she's saying is basically this was a ruse. she writes this, both the authors and the recipient of the memorandum had a shared understanding concerning the president it was a matter to be considered at all. in other words, the review of the document reveals that the attorney general was not then engaged in making a decision as to whether the president should be charged with obstruction of justice. the fact that he would not be prosecuted was a given as was the view from the mueller team, we learned. i mean, talk about how egregious the product has to be for a judge to accuse an ex-attorney general basically of an elaborate cover-up. this is almost unheard of. you rarely get a judge opining on what an attorney general has represented or has said. ordinarily, it's the line prosecutors and the line
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assistance who do it. i do think there's one area of the judge's opinion that is a little confusing and it is the question that mueller expressly said he was not going to make a prosecutorial decision and at times it seems like she's saying that mueller did make that decision. it doesn't matter in the end because she also found that this memo was essentially trying to paper over the rationale that barr had already come to and therefore, it wasn't protected from foya. but this is just unfathomable conduct that you would have from an attorney general and we may hear, nicole, a lot about oh, this is an obama judge or another democratic-leaning judge and that is the trumpification of the judiciary. we should not stand for that. whoever appointed this judge is irrelevant. chief justice roberts has
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pointed that out and these are judges in the federal judiciary who are calling out the attorney general himself and that does not even count his own political meddling in the michael flynn case and the roger stone case, in cases where he has no reason to be involved. so i think we will learn more and more, and i would be curious what matt says because i think an inspector general investigation into barr may be the appropriate means to look into this and show that there is a public record, and moving forward. >> i spoke to a former senior justice department official about this and the reporting so far and she had that same instinct, that an inspector general would be the best fact-finding mission, but i guess to the original point, who holds bill barr accountable? >> well, the american public has to ultimately.
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i think an inspector general investigation would be appropriate and not just looking into this incident and looking into the entire politicization and looking at the entire waterfront and the stone case and the politicization and the antitrust division. you look at everything that he did, and i think ultimately even apart from that there has to be transparency in that the sitting justice department will have to make a decision to release some of these documents. look, i think we will see this memo that's at issue in this case, but it is not at all certain that the justice department has until may 17th to appeal judge jackson's decision. they may ultimately win. they may lose. none of us know. i would say one of the things that happens when the administration change hands it doesn't end automatically and you inherit the court cases under your predecessors and we have to make decisions whether
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we need to continue to appeal bush administration cases to try to keep information secret or whether just let the american public see it. and i will tell you there are people inside the justice department career lawyers who will argue strenuously that this needs to be appealed and needs to protect the ability for lawyers and i think that's flat-out wrong and i know there were a number of the administration and i know we always had regrets about one of the things we never regretted was opening the door and letting the people, and we need transparency to see all of the documents, that congress has asked for in other cases and need to make way for other pieces of litigation. this isn't the only place that
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litigants have asked for documents that the trump administration through the justice department tried to withhold. >> matt miller, what is the emerging picture as some of these investigations -- as these investigations don't end, but with the other reporting around the search warrants that was pursued for rudy giuliani's devices and questions about bill barr's role there, new questions about the firing of the trump appointee who led the u.s. attorney's in the southern district of new york. this rebuke from this judge around what was -- i believe all three of us were on the air together during some of these moments. it fell like a slow-moving car crash watching bill barr say things like, well, the president had this thing hanging over -- he was talking like, whatever the third or fourth secretary trump was on at the time and he wasn't talking about the
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country's attorney general. what for you, matt miller, is new or novel about the new pieces to the barr legacy that we have to examine? >> we've gotten used to talking about the politicization and the corruption of the justice department under bill barr. whad think we're seeing more and more is just the outright dishonesty. in this case you have a nesting of lies where you have the underlying fact where he misled the country about what was in the mueller report. you have the justice department lying to court about the purpose of the memo and lying to the court about the contents of the memo and what you find is that there is a culture of dishonesty that permeated the department and the tangled web you weave and the department told an initial lie in bill barr's letter in bill barr's press conference in 2018 and had spent the last two years trying to
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cover it up, and you look at the way the department has tried to keep the facts from coming out about the way the attorney general and those around him behaved in this case. you have to believe that that is going to be the same in all these other cases, the firing of the u.s. attorney and the southern district of new york and you can go down the list of other justice department scandals. the one thing that i think we'll find that holds true in all of them is you have the attorney general and other top officials around him lying to the public over and over again. mike schmitt, i want to come back with the specificity with what bill barr spoke about what mueller had and had not found. so the barr summary which i think was the first thing that came out after the mueller probe ended saided special council states that while this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him. then they go on and they sort of take on the special counsel for
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describing the facts and describing all of the obstructive conduct. i have a short list here. these are the acts of obstruction of justice. you reported extensively on all of these. the pressure that pressed on comey to drop the investigation. threats to fire robert mueller and don mcgahn's elaborate threat to quit, packing his office and not quitting and attempts to use corey lewandowski, and attempts to influence manafort's testimonies about the trump tower meeting. it was detailed and it was extensive and don mcgahn was the narrator of donald trump's ongoing and fevered attempts at obstructing the russia probe. what was the reaction at the time from inside the mueller probe and inside of the witnesses and experiences that bill barr did what he did and is now being rebuked for?
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>> the problem at the heart of a lot of this was the fact that mueller did not make a decision whether to prosecute because that opened the door for barr who has a very expansive view of the attorney general's powers and saw himself as the ultimate decider in the case. it will be interesting to see what it is in the memo that led the judge to claim -- that barr, for some reason didn't have to make a decision or shouldn't have made a decision and rapted that. i'm anxious to find out what that is. what i think, more even so, of the decision that barr makes was how the report was released that bothered the mueller team. it was the fact that these were very nuanced, detailed incidents that they had investigated. they told a very stark story about how the president used his power to try and protect himself
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and to try and stymie the investigation and those summaries of those incidents and the details about them did not come out until several weeks after barr initially put out his letter that essentially cleared trump of wrongdoing and today, i actually went back and re-read the statement that barr gave at that press conference earlier about obstruction and in that press conference, he talks about how donald trump's white house essentially threw open its doors to mueller and they didn't stand in the way of anything, and there was no fact that mueller needed that he couldn't get to because of them and how cooperative they had been. i mean, donald trump refused to sit for an interview with the mueller team. he provided them with written answers. there have been questions about whether those answers were factual and he took a range of actions to throw sand in the
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gears of this investigation including pressuring don mcgahn to create a false document on the investigation given to mueller. bill barr's assessment of obstruction was that there was nothing to see here. trump benefitted from that. barr had a huge megaphone at the time and it gave republicans the cover to say well, if bill barr is saying and he's essentially clearing trump then he's been cleared. >> and here we all are, michael schmitt, goldman, matt miller thank you for starting us off on that story. after the break, security concerns of domestic extremism to uphold a ban against donald trump and republicans apparently no longer the party of national or homeland security are lashing out. plus we'll talk to the republican candidate in texas who had the audacity to trump on an anti-trump platform. we'll ask him what he thinks about his race and about the future of the party and what's playing out right now with liz
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cheney in washington what the department of defense is considering an aggressive plan to defend against the white supremacist frifrnl. all of that after a quick break. don't go anywhere been ere been okay. mother and child in vehicle. mother is unable to exit the vehicle. injuries are unknown. thank you, onstar. ♪ my son, is he okay? your son's fine. thank you. there was something in the road... it's okay. you're safe now. this is our block.
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. another blow today to the disgraced ex-president's silenced social media presence. the oversight board has upheld facebook trump ban. it started the capitol insurrection he incited. the ban was justified because, quote, in maintaining an unfounded narrative of electoral
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fraud and persistent calls to action, mr. trump created an environment where a serious risk of violence was possible. at the time of mr. trump's post there was a clear, immediate risk of harm and his words of support for those involved in the riots legitimized their violent actions. it is not clear if the ban will become permanent. the board determined they must review it in six months, but the decision speaks volumes about the man and his election lies still exercising a firm grip on the gop. two lies that were repeated today in two separate misses from the president and the republican party now betting the whole farm, its entire future, not just on the disgraced ex-president, but on the lie that got him kicked off of social media platforms. let's bring in jonathan lemmirand kim atkins co-host of the #sistersinlaw podcast. >> there were two statements
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released by the disgraced ex-president today that would have gotten banned anew. at some point the risk for these companies in playing with fire which is what they're doing if they entertain any statements from someone who is still repeating the big lie behind the insurrection and behind a domestic violent extremism terror threat warning for this country for the first part of this year is ongoing. it happened twice today. >> it seems that the former president hasn't learned his lesson, nicole and you're right to highlight those statements and certainly trump and his camp are using this as a means to wage war against big tech and claim bias from facebook, twitter, google and the rest and using it as a rallying cry on the right and that's what many people believe is a short-sighted strategy. donald trump is so closely associated with twitter and rightly so. facebook was instrumental in his
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rise. it is where he started and it is where he raised a lot of his money and were so many of his and supporters, conspiracy theories took flight on facebook and to lose that now is certainly a blow as he tries to remain relevant and in the national conscience, but what is clear, he has a firm grip on the republican party even if his social media presence is nil and reports of his new social media platform launched yesterday resembled just a blog, but we're seeing today with the imminent ouster of liz cheney from the house republican leadership with kevin mccarthy, steve scalise and others pledging their loyalty to donald trump or trump and trumpism, even if trump himself ends up not running in 2024. facebook or not he is still the dominant figure in republican politics and he's going to keep telling the big lie and most republicans will keep going
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along with it. >> kim atkins, this might be a bizarre question, but i don't know -- i interviewed a dozen trump voters and i went out and talked to each and every one of them half a dozen times from the election day in 2016 to the first year of the trump presidency. every single one of them got all their news about donald trump and about the media on facebook. so i can't imagine facebook has friends on either side. why not both parties get together and shut them down? they're a cancer. >> yeah. i mean, this decision by the oversight board really shows how facebook has essentially shot itself in the foot. you have a decision which keeps donald trump off the platform for now, but it forces facebook to go back and justify why this indefinite suspension is -- is called for and is not arbitrary. if facebook had acted more definitively it wouldn't be in this position. jonathan is exactly right that
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facebook has given a platform to not just donald trump and for his messaging and falsehoods, but also, you know, all kinds of information with gathering for proud boys and it was slow to act to try to address that and finally they took some action to do it, with lawmakers and my editorial board and urging it to more so such a long time and now arbitrary before the board is facebook's own doing and certainly lawmakers on both sides of the aisle have had facebook in the sights for a long time, some for political reasons trying to please donald trump but others to say as somebody in a position to do more to stop misinformation, to stop election interference, through misinformation, you dropped the ball and never really fully picked it up so i would expect more to come from
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congress. right now congress is evenly divided and if they agree it is hard to get it done but something that should be getting their attention. >> jonathan, this was the i think the last post and this was the one that justified the suspension. trump as the mutilation of law enforcement officials by american flag poles was happening trump with this statement, we love you to the insurrectionists. you are very special. great patriots. remember this day forever. and then facebook said that violated the rules prohibiting praise or support of people in violence. facebook was justified in suspending trump's accounts on january 6. they want to take the xhoepts that trump made the day that the violence was happening while trump supporters mutilating cops at the moment but what does
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facebook say about the statement that is brought them there that day? every single day, you two reported on them. posts going up on facebook from donald trump and the groups that organize the trump rally on facebook. they summoned the crowd as liz cheney said in the passionate speech and took place on facebook among other places. >> right. throughout donald trump's emergence as a political figure posts including on facebook seemed to really be treading on dangerous ground with inciting rhetoric and certainly perpetuated the baseless claims of election fraud from november on and as they geared towards the certification of the electoral college vote on january 6 the defining moment in the fight against joe biden's election, yes, there was a lot of talk across social media platforms in particular facebook
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about this group, including organizations i use that toerm loosely like the proud boys gathering there up to no good and the post that got him finally suspended you know it was just within of many and frankly even that he had to be convinced to put anything on there. white house aides who saw the situation at the capitol who had mike pence calling for help to get the president to call off the troops, kevin mccarthy similar message to have the rioters, the trump supporters to back off cajoled into that and the message as much directed how much he loved the supporters and asked them to stop their violent acts and doesn't appear to be a sense he changed the messaging whatsoever in perpetuating the fraud defining american politics in 2021 and could beyond.
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>> kim, jonathan is so right. the big lie is defining american politics to the point where one of the most conservative members in the house cannot hang on to her leadership position because she refuses to be part of the lie. so that lie is so toxic it also undergirds a terror threat of domestic violent extremism from people that adhere to an ideology rooted in the big lie. has facebook shown any remorse? what's facebook story telling around the culpability of telling a lie that's redefining the politics? but obviously republicans are going after them and also represents the ideology, the belief system that threatens the homeland in the most serious way. >> that's a very good question. i haven't seen a really satisfactory answer from facebook about that. they want to essentially have
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their profit and eat it, too. the more people to reach the less involved they are in censoring speech and the money maker for them and as a result have been very, very slow to make any of these adjustments, more interested it seems in buying up competitors or companies they think are competitors like instagram and trying to become a monopoly. it is a big problem and as for this lie that republicans keep telling it doesn't just undergird this national security threat but this real attack on voting rights happening from coast to coast. that's one of the main reasons that republicans have embraced it so strongly. that that is very important to them to keep other people from voting and when you add up all of the problems when it comes to democracy that this is all causing and facebook is right in the middle of it just as a sit zone we are seeing oir companies
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stand up and be corporate citizens and engage in activism to oppose things like the voitding laws. facebook is really dropping the ball and really out of step with where the country is going. >> i just think when you come back in 100 years and look at this era and the people seeing the big lie and how did they believe in the big lie? fox news of course but talk about facebook just as frequently. jonathan, kim, thank you so much for being part of this conversation. up next, the former gop congressional candidate in texas with an experience of the truth of the republican party. he walked away gravely concerned of what he saw and will share that with us. that with us >> woman: really? >> tech: that's service you can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ people everywhere living with type 2 diabetes
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republican candidate and a congressional responsibly election in texas michael wood ran chiefly on an anti-trump platform gaining national attention for his candor and denouncing the ex-president. take this tweet. quote i'd rather fight for our my country and the constitution on a shoestring budget than kiss that man's king at mar-a-lago. it was a big, bold bet to give voice to the voters that don't recognize the former party after what donald trump and his cronies have done to it. wood told politico in an interview, quote, i thought that if somebody stood up and spoke plainly and spock some hard truths that they'd be able to gain traction but when the
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results came in wood only managed to win 3% of the vote an outcome he says raises grave concerns about the state of the gop. michael wood former house gop candidate for texas 6th district joins us now. your loss and reaction to it is the sort of -- the thing that hatched recently in the pattern of liz cheney right now. i wonder if you could connect those two things. >> yeah. i think that there should be a line of republicans around the block standing up to defend her. this is probably the bravest woman in the western hemisphere but as i said before she is a mod owner-day margaret thatcher, an iron lady and stabbed in the back and not over policy differences but because she won't lie and it's a very -- it's horrible what's happening and i don't know if i want to be in a party that doesn't want
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somebody in it who's speaking the truth. >> did you vote for donald trump in november? >> i did. >> he told more than 35,000 lies based on "the washington post" lie counter. why did you vote for him? >> well, i think i was in a difficult spot. like lot of conservatives were and i wonder if i wasn't to myopic and small minded focusing on judges or tax cuts or israel and maybe i should have taken a step backwards and taken more seriously the -- what other people were saying about him, the would be autocrat and whatnot. i will say that after i voted for him immediately did everything he could to make me regret it. leading up to january 6 and including the big lie.
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>> i guess my only pushback is the big lie started well before election day so there's plenty of time to see where this was heading and told voters in north carolina to vote not once but twice and tried to commit senior citizen attic voter fraud of a criminal nature. he had some bizarre turns at the podium in a debate that any republican would have been troubled by. i say that as someone who used to vote for republicans and let hundreds of thousands of people die from covid so were you the best example to the people in the district of a pure protest person to donald trump if you voted for him yourself a few months ago? >> i don't know. but nobody else was standing up so i ran. >> so what's the mission now? because i also think that you have to welcome people whenever they come to the realization that trumpism is a danger to the
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democracy. what's the mission now? how do you summon more allies to the cause? >> i don't know. i'm going to take a few days and a few weeks to figure out what the next steps are. i don't know if people like us just need to step away from politics and just not run for anything why maybe not vote for anybody for a few years until this sort of passes. or if it's the patriotic duty to try to set up organizations that can push back. you know? there are plenty of problems with the republican party right now ai think with the democratic party and would be much easier to join that party. i feel like i can't so i don't know. i think that this isn't going to be solved with podcasts or op-eds. i think that those of us who think like i do and i guess like liz cheney and others will have to be organizing throughout the
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country to sort of make it so that it's not just sort of the nutjobs in the primaries only pain point for politics. >> one of the i think ways that we got here is too many decent republicans went along with anti-democratic conduct. and it turns out that it wasn't just donald trump that felt that way but mccarthy ian mcconnell and everyone that did nothing and turned this country into an international joke. we did not showcase a peaceful transfer of power and the oex president did not concede the loss to joe biden. it seems like one party has policies you don't love and believes in democracy and the other is in your words moving to autocratic practices. >> yeah. that's the question whether or not -- i mean, i completely
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understand what you're saying and for instance i'm concerned about the $6 trillion in spending that joe biden is proposing. i think a lot of that will be wasted. i'm a conservative. et cetera. it is -- how do you sort of measure that up against insurrection and undermining the constitution and something that i'm still trying to figure out. you know? i will say that i'm also pro-life. abortion is an issue that's important to me and yeah. that's also in my opinion a life and death issue. and it would be a lot easier if there were a stronger, bigger pro-life joe manchin wing in the democratic party but there's not. i don't have all the answers but i am very concerned and tried to do what i could in my humble manner here in texas. >> texas is obviously to my old
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boss george w. bush and said he is troubled and that his party has turned to protectionism, isolationism and nativism. i wonder what you make of liz cheney known to the country as the father was the country's vice president. she has a career of her own now for the better part of two decades. mitt romney was booed in his state that party's 2012 standard bearer and cindy mccain made an appearance and talking about this illegal sort of extra judicial bizarre third or fourth or fifth recount. i understand this feeling of political homelessness but do you think the party has left you or do you think it can be salvaged? >> i really don't know. i had moments of very much
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optimism on the campaign trail feeling like more people than i expected responding to the miss and. and then we had the results. it was a very chaotic election. 23 candidates. but nonetheless we did have the results and i think that had to do the message that i had. so i was feeling pretty low and then this week this -- what's happening to liz cheney makes me feel even lower. i think it's salvageable. haven't yet given up on the party. you know? i don't want us to have to lose for a decade before we sort of get this message sort of the way that the democrats lost throughout the '80s and pivoted to a clintonian party. i don't want to get there. yeah. i heard what the former president said. i agree with him. i think that we are a party of grievance right now.
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i don't know what we stand for. owning the libs. we don't like baseball or coke or nascar or hollywood or academia. we don't like anything. we're just a grievance party that hates a good hunk of america and then call ourselves patriots and a dead end and won't win elections that way and not going to put in to place the sort of conservative reforms we want that way and then at the fringes there's a real risk of political violence which keeps me up at night. woe saw that on january 6 and i hate to say it but it can get worse than that. we have a lot of work ahead of us. >> all very scary. i'm sorry for your loss and i appreciate that you're speaking out and doing that with us. thank you. when we come back, speaking of right wing extremists, infiltrating the u.s. military and what president biden's pentagon plans to do about that. .
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just like liz cheney, i believe in telling the truth. i believe real leadership is about telling the truth. any republican talking out of sides of their lips about the election fraud issues that have been debunked is not leadership. it shows you can only take commands from donald trump. hi, everyone. one of the two major political parties in the united states has made it abundantly clear it will
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put the man who lost them control of the white house and control of the senate over the simple truth. you just heard there from georgia's republican lieutenant governor, jeff duncan, one of the few republicans willing to put honesty and principle over politics, as almost the entire rest of the gop cling to donald trump's lies, and is now on a crusade to oust liz cheney from her position as conference chair, her crime, being the lone republican in leadership to tell the truth about the violence that was incited they're quietly working behind the scenes to boost elise sstefanik's bid for house chair, to which liz cheney's responseman responded, liz will have more in the coming days. this moment is much more about a
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house leadership fight. this push by top house republicans, which even more firmly plants and cements their feet in the ground of trumpian lies, could cost them everything. so says conservative bastian, "wall street journal" el toil board. republicans will look foolish or worse to swing voters if they refight 2020 and 2022. mr. trump lost the vote in a rout by a similar margin to what we won in 2016. he lost as republicans gained seats in the house. the election was close, but not as close as others in american history. quickly turned to returning on an agenda in the future that will check mr. -- purging liz cheney for honesty would diminish the party.
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joe scarborough weighed in on that exact point. in their pile on on liszt cheney, republicans are losing themselves. >> here we find ourselves as the "wall street journal" editorial page says, with just a veritable cornucopia to feast on from a democratic presidency that's the most liberal since lbj. if there were a conservative there, this is all -- i guarantee you, when i was there, this is all we would be talking about, and we would be on the floor night and day talking about runaway government. they, instead, are talking about a woman with a lifetime 95% acu rating, like me, by the way, who's simply telling the truth about the 2020 election. this is madness. >> it's good-bye to the republican party you once new, hello to a party completely
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captured by one man, more importantly his lies, stopping at nothing to appease him. as thomas freed writes -- we are closing to a political civil wear. there's simply nothing more dangerous for a two-party democracy than to have one party declare no election where it loses is legitimate, and therefore, if it loses, it will just lie about the results and change the rules. that is exactly what's playing out now. the gop's further descent into lies is -- playbook co-author is here. also joining us is olivia troy, and former republican congressman denver riggleman. congressman, i have to start with you. i don't know that the republican
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party it can go back to fighting about spending after not caring about spending during donald trump's presidency, but i think joe scarborough's point is there's enough spending them try if they cared about anything principled. i don't think they could go back to fighting on national security turf. donald trump turned them into a party that looks the other way when vladimir putin encroaching on our allies. do you buy that theory? i don't think that party exists anymore. >> i think it's very difficult to say that it exists. i don't know if any of you have seen this. just on twitter, you know, the sewer of american politics runs by my phone, by the way. i want everyone to know that. just on twitter, we found there's people fund-raising saying that liz cheney -- rpg right now on twitter are fund-raising, saying that liz is destroying their movement. the only thing -- nicolle, i
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sometimes have a way with words to put my point across, but it looks like an intellectual bowel movement. when you have an audit going on in arizona, they're using uv light to see if there's secret markings on there by the illume nati. you have two great people on the show. we're still in the echo chamber of facts. i think it's up to rep leaders at the grassroots level to call out the ridiculousness, the insanity and morons that seems to be in charge of the republican party. it's almost like they were trained wrong as a joke, and they took that for real. they took it as reality. i'm just out of an ability to
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define the idiot sit. we're three people in a bar and see six that are crazy, we're going to get our puts kicked, but we're going to fight them anyway. we're tired of listening to the nonsense. >> i think the -- you and i talked last about the fact-human gop, something we both deal with professionally and personally, but i know liz cheney. i think that what people don't appreciate is that the few republicans like liz who are speaking out, are doing so from a national security concern. i mean, the republican party, by refusing to take a sledgehammer to anyone who incites an insurrection on the capitol are no different from anyone who, after 9/11, refused to do anything about people who flew planes into the building. that's where the party is.
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the notion that kevin mccarthy wants to investigate black lives matter protesters weren't there. they were people loud and proud waving trump flags. they wanted us to know who they were. i wonder if you could speak to the complete deterioration of the republican party. >> i'm the -- i think you might have heard, nicolle, that we had a minimum of seven white nationalist groups that were in that throng of people who sieged the capitol. that was a minimum. we knew there were? other groups we couldn't prove specifically, but we saw seven part of the planning. we did an in-depth investigation, we would see a lot of issues or connections that are there that people don't want to see. here's the issue with liz cheney calling for a january 6th
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commission, a lot of republican members don't want to be subpoenaed. i think that is the straw that broke the camel's back when she came out against him on the need for a 1/6 commission. we're looking inwardly so much on the domestic terrorism side, we're possibly missing thing cyber, or maybe even kinetic attacks, because we're so focused on the crazy that's happening with people who still believe this and could be activated right through the radical language that's used. so, yeah, my god, yes, i'm concerned. i've been in counter-terrorism for 20 years. i'm looking at people who are talking the exact same way i saw from 2001 to 2012, when i was completely involved in counter-terrorism and just sort of saturated with that mission set. nicolle, i don't -- i don't know what else to say. we're in trouble if we continue down this path. i think we're already in trouble. that's what i'm trying to say. >> look, i mean, eugene, i think
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this line of questioning is the really scary part of the liz cheney story, right? where both parties fight among themselves. this isn't a fight about a penalty they don't like or someone who srcht conservative enough. this is a fight about someone who won't repeat the lie that undergirds the current threat against the united states of america, by the way, the very same lie that inspires the insurrection against the united states capitol. that's it. that's why she's getting ousted. instead of saying this election was safe, secure and free, they are seeing her as a nuisance. that's the probably here, right? it's not that she's not conservative enough. it's that she's not getting in line and not continues to spread these lies. i'm pretty cynical when it comes to the motives of policy tiffs, but if she was looking at the tea leaves of the rep party right now and saying, okay, i said to be the future of that party, she would probably at the
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very least stop talking about donald trump, stop talking about january 6th, like many of the other republicans that are out there who remind me of when we used to ask if they have seen donald trump's tweets. they don't want to talk about this. that's why, but she's clearly not moving in that vein. she is looking at this in the long view. reported today by some of my colleagues, behind the scenes, she's not making calls. she's not engaging in the campaigning that she did when this vote came up the first time. it seems like she is okay and comfortable with going down like this. if this is what happens, if the republican party is ability to find itself and remove itself from trump and trumpism, she is the person people will look to as the example. that seems to be what she's banking on, and something that's not moving a lot of republicans. the question we had after january 6th -- it looked for a while, right, that we're all
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wondering, because everyone was speaking out against donald trump, about his supporters. it seemed like they was moving away from donald trump, especially his big lie about the election. but at this party, is this a party that operates at donald trump's whim, is cared of him still, even though he doesn't have the bully pulpit or the power that he used to have? they are scared of what could happen. when you talk to experts who look at democracies a lot of the time, they say one of the most important things is having at least two parties who operate under facts, not fiction. >> so, since we've been talking, since we came on the air, liz cheney published an op-ed. she writing -- history is watching, our children are watching. we must be brave enough to defend the principles underpinning or process. i'm committed to doing that, no matter the short-term political
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consequences, no matter the short-term political consequences might be. >> liz cheney willing to do what no other republican in the trump era has been willing to do -- lose her post, lose her seat to protect the country from donald trump and all he ushered in. at least there's one, olivia. >> that's absolutely it. liz cheney is fighting for our democracy, first and foremost. that's what this woman is doing. she's fighting it with integrity, courage and she is is unwavering. she's taking on trumpism, and that's fundamentally dangerous for the country. this is a whole of society problem. this isn't -- to me, i view this as not just a republican party problem. what's happening here permeates through households, permeates through our politics, it affects the country's leadership's able to govern.
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i'm concerned who they will likely replace her with. i've seen some of the records of some of these, who will go along with the big lie, who will bow down and kiss the ring of trumpism. that is fundamentally dangerous for our country. i am grateful that there is one, there is liz cheney. regardless of where you are politically on supporting her or not, what she is doing takes guts. >> it takes guts. it's so sad. i said this yes with a.b. stoddard and jake sherman, we talk about her being gutsy. that's true, but it's also a reflection of how much gutless, wimpy and unpatriotic the rest of the party is. liz gets at it. she says kevin mccarthy left no doubt in his public remarks on the floor of the house on january 13th, he said, quote,
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the president bears responsibility for wednesday's attack on congress by mob rioters. he should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. now, she writes, he changes his story. i'm a conservative and have the most referens for the rule of law. we reported today on the rebuke from a federal judge of bill barr. he had a very capable assistant in the final years of his presidency. this is what the republican party has sown. they are reaping what they have sown. >> well, and, you know, i'm not trying to make everybody sad here. i don't want everybody to have sad faces when i say this, but looking at the polls and fund-raising, and i think eugene and olivia have seen this, too,
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this message is working and really the trump rule of law. liz shows she as integrity. olivia alluded to that. that integrity is important in a two-party system. both parties have to deal in facts. right now we do have a party -- listen, i don't think crazy is party-specific. what i've said before, well a party in a hold my beer moment when it comes to crazy. if you think you can win by fomenting these flames of disinformation, why wouldn't you do that if you have no beity. the number one gene politicians have is self-preservation. if you have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, you have to say things you don't believe in. as long as that leads to a win, that's most important. that's when you have a problem
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when people look at this as a career, not a service. i ran into that, and it's friends of mine, people i have loved, i've lost family over this, lost friends over this. at 134 point the integrity gene has been to be the self-preservation gene. >> it's inextricably linked, eugene, to the disinformation. what happened before our very eyes, when we thought, ooh, calling him a liar seems harsh, well, wait a minute. while we took a beat, they sort of hard-wired the disinformation structure, but they stopped believes in the idea of leadership. now they follow the base, they disinformation 9 base, lie to say base and follow the disinformed jacked-up base. i wonder if there's anyone privately who welcomes liz cheney's attempt to break the
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fever. >> i'm sure they are. adam kinzinger has spoke out quite a bit, for the most part she's on an island of her own because of this fear of donald trump. after four years of him as president, and as the leader of that party four years and counting, the thing we are starting to see -- the idea of trumpism is give from trump. ed idea of trumpism is never backing down, never saying you're wrong, never apologizing, all of those things that made him who he was. frankly, all of those things that also made him interest, and appetizing to people -- to his base, to the base of the republican party. they had for years talked about wanting someone who was strong and, you know, democrats fight for their values, and republicans don't. the think about donald trump is what we saw is he didn't really have a policy north star, right? that wasn't something he operated under. he still doesn't. the way that the republican party is continues to chase him
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and the way he thinking, they also don't have a policy north star. what joe was saying is true. the fact that all of this spending being thrown out there by president biden, $2 trillion was put through without a republican vote, there's so much fodder for them to fight about. what they concentrated on up until this point are these culture wars, on trans issues, mr. and mrs. potato head, all of those things. it doesn't look like that's going to happen anytime soon. >> olivia, i'll give you the last word. >> we're talking about values, the only value i see in the republican party that they value is lies. lying. i think that says everything we can say about the party under mccarthy right now. it's such a sorry and sad state of affairs.
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for your astute observations i'm grateful. thank you all for starting us off this hour. when we return, it turns out what we thought happened did happen. a federal judge says attorney general bill barr lied to everyone about the mueller report, and trump's obstruction. what does a biden justice department do about it? plus federal prosecutors are calling for an outside lawyer, a special master they call it, to review the records seized in last week's raids on rudy giuliani. we'll ask an expert what that means and what happens next. we heard dr. fauci say it on this broadcast yesterday, as vaccinations go up, cases of coronavirus go down. that's what we're seeing in the first state to fully vaccinate one half of its adult population. don't go anywhere. its adult population don't go anywhere.
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it's fair to say the technical legal term for how the mueller team appears to be feeling is pissed. there's something deeply wrong about releasing a clearing document in a couple pages, and then not provides any of the other information. you can go to a court and get permission for the grand jury material to be given to congress. it's easy to do. within 48 hours, barr felt perfectly comfortable acting in a hurry for clear president trump. so, you know, it's a real mismatch here. it really does feed this idea that barr is the president's
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guy, not the people's guy. here we are, more than two years after our friend neil katya, who is the only person who thinking he says on live tv actually sounds better two years later, raises suspicions about bill barr. today confirmation from the american justice system we are prescient. judge jackson admonishing bill barr for his disingenuous findings. joining our conversation is neal katya, former solicitor general, and our "the washington post" national reporter, lucky for us both msnbc contributors. >> neal, people like yourself seem to intuitive know what's going on. why does it take so long for sort of the grinding of the
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wheels to make public what is, i guess, was to you obvious at the time that barr was lieic when he came out and misrepresented 234 mueller's conclusions, and we'll never now the political damage those lies did to the country and his voters. >> nicolle, i don't think -- i'm not sitting here feeling good about the fact that i and so many others were right two years ago. i desperately wanted to be wrong. our system is set up to trust the attorney general. barr was attorney general of the united states. not the attorney generally for president trump. he was supposed to be for the people. unfortunately, there was always a degree of corruption around him. he constantly acted like one of donald trump's personal attorneys. now, with the new decision by the judge into his deception, he's finally being treated like
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one of the gang, which he always was. you know, this is the justice department. it's not the interior department or some other place that's been historically plagued by scanned always. this is the crown jewel of our democracy. it's a place that's historically run in the people's interests, not in the interests of the president. what you have in this decision by the judge amy jackson, who is a meticulous judge, is a statement that, no, barr actually lied to the court and to the american people. she called barr's actions in the litigating position disingenuous, which is something you almost never hear a federal judge say about any litigant, particularly not someone from the justice department, and particularly not the attorney general of the united states. if a federal judge calls your testimony before the congress disingenuous, as she did, i think it's time to start
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retaining legal counsel, and ideally someone who can save whatever is left of that tattered reputation that you have. >> let me press you there. what does bill barr need legal counsel for? who could try to hold him accountable legally? >> well, i think, you know, this is true about every attorney who surrounded themselves with donald trump. they run into criminal liability. you see it -- you know, we'll talk about giuliani a bit later. you see it time and again, michael cohen, all these other people. judge jackson is saying in this opinion, barr, you testified before congress, your testimony before congress was that you had made these decision. now it looks like you didn't actually make these decisions, and this material you're try to go prevent from the american people from seeing you claimed was shielded because you hadn't made the decisions at the time, but it looks like you did. so there is the possibility of a
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criminal investigation into bill barr now. there's also the possibility of civil and disciplinary actions against him as well. i mean, the attorney general of the united states is supposed to be above reproach. here you have the top lawyer for the entire governments, you know, big accused of being disingenuous by an incredibly well-respected judge in d.c. before -- this is the third judge. >> yeah. and judge sullivan, too. >> carol, that is really the extraordinary piece of this, that this wasn't the first time or second time, this was the third time bill barr was rebuked by a federal judge. i wonder if you can just widen the license a bit. i remember when bill barr, you know, was just a colonel in the trump twitter feed and rich. there was even a school of
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thought that he might land on sort of the thinking right-winger side much the ledgers, like a terwilliger sort of figure. then there were a few, no, this is -- he landed squarely on the, you know, talk radio kind of legal impulses and political impulses, just blanket loyalty to donald trump. i wonder if you think stories like this, and sort of this slow emerging picture will get worse, or do you think we know most of what happened? >> i think you asked about the last part of that. i think the most interesting thing about this is what we don't know. amy berman jackson revealed as much as she could of a document that's currently sealed, highly redacted. and she gave us those clues, but i'll get to that in a minute.
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everybody should kind of remember that attorney general big barr was, when he first arrived, viewed as this eminence, a person of seriousness and gravitas. people were elated that the attorney general that donald trump had gotten fed up with was going to be replaced by somebody as serious as bill barr. however, he did end up looking often as if he was essentially doing the president's bidding. i think what people misunderstood about big barr in the first movement is because he had been attorney general before, he would be vested with all of the same feelings that, for example, neal katya and all the my sources feel, that justice is always blind, justice is always objective. what people understood is bill barr is a political ideologue, a political street fighter. he felt strong that the mueller
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investigation was bunk, that it was a process violation essentially. he got to define what they found. he essentially decided they didn't find very much. the truth is they found plenty. here's the last part, if you don't mind, nicolle, amy berman jackson has this great point in her ruling, in which that she's essentially describing this 2019 memo that bill barr and his team said they should never reveal's a post-hoc valuation. what was going on? why was the justice department pointing to this document in 2019 as so important and deliberative that it could never be shared, if indeed it was just a rationalization after the fact? what is going on in those
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deliberations? what is possibly sort of behind that figure leaf? not just the document but all the other documents we have not yesterday been able to see? i'm seral pulling out the rolodex to figure it out. >> neal, do we want to venture a guess? >> i'm not going to venture to guess. we know that judge jackson has actually read the document herself, and her opinion was informed by it. the justice department resisted that, but she was able to read it. i think time will tell. i don't want to speculate, but my guess is, it's not looking good for bill barr. i believe she ordered it to be released on may 17th. so as bob woodward says s. the truth will reveal. when we return, federal prosecutors are asking for a special master to review evidence seized from rudy giuliani's home and office. we'll find out what that means and what it looks like for that
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we're learning more about how the justice department will investigate former trump lawyer rudy giuliani. after federal authorities seized evidence from his home and office last week in a growing criminal case. "the washington post" is reporting that federal prosecutors in new york have asked a district judge to appoint a special master to review that evidence that was taken. a special master was used in
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proceedings with michael cohen, as a way to show that cohen was treated fairly. we're back with neal and carol this seems to have two benefits, it gets the justice department off bockius idea that they're -- and doesn't it also eliminate any questions about the tainting of sort of mixing? >> yes, absolutely, nicolle. you'll remember that with michael cohen, it was michael cohen's defense lawyers who argued, hey, you can't have that material, this guy represents the president. 4th's a lawyer, there's a privilege there, only the president can waive that privilege, you can't see all these records until we review them. they were the ones able to obtain a special master, our outside lawyer to make sure there wasn't any secret of the president or any legal personal information that will be revealed if this evident was
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pore over by prosecutors. however, in this case the prosecutors are asking for it, to get the jump on that argument. it's fascinating, too, because it defuses anything that rudy giuliani might be able to say about the unfairness of seizing his phone. you may have seen that his lawyer, very respected, they may have his phone, but they don't have a viable case against him. i know that rudy giuliani probably does not want his phone in the possession of federal prosecutors nonetheless, and now they're going to go through this proper step to make sure there's nothing there that they shall not see. >> i wonder also if there's an issue how cautious the garland/monaco justice
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department will be for any of these probes that come nears any of donald trump's allies or aides. >> i think they're truly the a-team on not just how to conduct an investigation zealously, but also fairly. here the prosecutors went to the judge? new york, saying we're concerned with the appearance of fairness, that's why they want a special master. rudy giuliani, on the other hand should be concerning himself with the appearance of a miracle, because it looks really bad for him. ten of his devices have been seized. he's being treated like a common criminal. oy think care is exactly right, you use a special master, because you want to make sure law enforcement doesn't get any privileged information. part of me suspects that law enforcement doesn't want to touch anything that's been in his apartment. so maybe that's a second reason.
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>> carol, we talked about this sort of legal separating of the investigators and the team that looks at it in the michael cohen case. here was michael cohen on what rio rio -- rudy giuliani is going through. >> the fbi is not raiding his home without having extremely different documentation, information in which to pursue this. what rudie needs to do is like i did, you need to take responsibility for what you did wrong. what rudy needs to do, and this is my speech to rudy and anybody else, they have him. so if he's looking to protect himself so he doesn't end up spending the rest of his life in prison, he may want to actually start to cooperate. >> carol, do you have any indication from your reporting about what sort of phase of
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acceptance of what's happening to him, rudy giuliani, is in? does he understand he may face some legal exposure and peril? >> well, he is, regardless of all the things that have happened in the last two years in terms of the diminished reputation of rudy giuliani, he was the u.s. attorney for the most important federal district in the country, the southern district. they're the sovereign district, as they like to call it. he does know the law, he as not forgotten it. he knows michael cohen is dead right. you don't get a warrant unless you have a lot of evidence that these conversations have nothing to do with law and have everything to do with crime. so he has to be aware of that issue. i am still sort of blown away by the bizarre parallels between the cohen situation and the giuliani situation.
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i mean, we have already talked about the special master, you know, making sure the evidence you get to see inside someone's phone. the same thing was used with michael, but the same thing is going on with michael and rudy with regard to the pressure campaign. michael cohen was faced with something pretty traumatic. that's where rudy is entering -- that phase is the one that rudy is entering now. the trauma was, my goodness, they have serious evidence. they've been able to look at all my records in the office and now they want to know about things i talked about with donald trump. and i have a lot of legal bills for all of this. interestingly, the same pattern is happening here. rudy giuliani is now sending through surgats messages that, i'm in a lot of trouble and i have very high legal bills, and i think the next sentence is, and prosecutors want to know what i talked about with
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donald trump. so we'll see what happens. if rudy giuliani goes the way of paul manafort, or if he goes the way of michael cohen, but right now he's squarely in a michael cohen trajectory. >> only michael cohen knows that based on the public-facing comments we have seen. thank you both so much. someday i will make both of you staying for the entire hour. it's so enlightning. we'll look in on the state that's able to fully vaccinate half of its population, and as promised,
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we've seen it with other infections and seen it with other countries. dr. anthony fauci yesterday on this program, on a very simple and welcomed concept. it is a foundation of president biden's new goal of getting at least 70% of all u.s. adults partially vaccinated by july 4th. the state of connecticut is proving it is possible. the governor said this week, nearly 70% of the state's population has already had one dose of the vaccine, more than 50% are fully vaccinated, making connecticut the first state to reach that milestone. the state's test positivity and hospital rates are the lowers in at least six months with infections down 38%. joining our conversation the founding director of columbia
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university's national centers for preparedpreparedness. the miracle of vaccines cannot be overstated. >> right, nicolle. this is a truth, as doctor more faster we will get control of covid-19. and i think the news from connecticut is very encouraging. it is possible. i mean, there are some caveats, obviously. so if we get some variants that are transmitted more rapidly or more lethal, we will have other things to worry about. but right now it is good news from connecticut and good news from places like israel as well where they have been very successful in getting people vaccinated and seen successful drops in the number of cases and fatalities in israel. hopefully that's what the u.s. can expect as well.
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>> and we're moving toward -- i have been reading and reporting on the trials for using, at least the pfizer vaccine, in adolescents. i believe there are trials ongoing through the summer for maybe using them on younger children. as a pediatrician, can you speak to how those trials are conducted, what they learn and what you think sort of the conversations will be like between pediatricians and parents when the pfizer age drops to, i believe, 12? >> right. and it's going even beyond that, nicole. i was speaking with administration officials yesterday. it's hoped that by the end of the year, we will actually be able to vaccinate down to two months of age. it will happen in stages. this is how the trials are working with pfizer, but the other manufacturers are going to come along as well. you start with 12 to 15. and then you go through 11 to 15. and then you get down to the younger school-aged children and
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finally preschool and infants. and it is really important that we pay attention to making sure two things. number one, that children are protected. you know, we just are now seeing reports that children are making up about 22% of covid reported cases right now. a year ago, it was 3%. so i am concerned as a pediatrician that we'll be seeing more and more children affected, and that's really one of the reasons to vaccinate them. the other reason is if we want to get closer and closer to herd immunity, that magic number where we could say the country is going to be increasingly protected from the spread of the disease, then we're going to need to make sure we have included children all the way down to infancy as our agenda and our mission in terms of vaccinating the u.s., nicole. >> and canada, i think, slightly ahead of us. they became the first country to approve the pfizer vaccine in 12 to 15-year-olds.
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pfizer expecting to apply for emergency use in the 2 to 11-year-old age group in september. i want to switch gears and ask you about this conversation or debate going on around lifting sort of the trademark protections and helping to speed this vaccine being made available around the world. can you explain the debate and tell us where you come down on it? >> yeah. you know, it is incredibly interesting and important. just coming up now because progressives have been pushing to eliminate really the ip, the protections, for manufacturers to have exclusive right to produce the vaccine. why do they want that to happen and why is the biden administration moving in that direction? because we are dealing with a catastrophic, apocalyptic situation around the world from india to south america. it is really important that every country on the planet has the ability to produce the
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critical life saving vaccines and in fact also has the ability to produce the new medications that are coming around shortly that will allow outpatient treatment of covid-19. so this is going to be a battle. it is obviously going to be a lot of pushback from the manufacturers of vaccines and the medications. but it is really important for the health of the earth and people on it to make sure that technology is available everywhere, nicole. >> and will the biden administration have an influence on that debate in the ultimate decisions? >> well, i think so. you know, the biden administration has been very aggressive in general about the policies that it thinks are appropriate. and i think they're going to take a hard stand on this. they wouldn't have even hinted that they were going to do so unless it was in the works. but i just think there is going to be push back from the
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mefrers, of course. at the end of the day, i hope the biden administration prevails and makes sure this technology is available around the world because we need everybody to be safe because let's say we even achieve the herd immunity that we need in america. we have brewing, festering virus in india. it is eventually going to get here. >> right. >> so the health of the planet is germane and important to the health of america. >> truly extraordinary circumstances. doctor, thank you so much. when we return, as we do every day, we will remember lives well-lived. lives well-lived
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it's been more than one year
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since michael hughes passed and still nearly every single day his daughter says she sees bits of him, his legacy scattered all around chicago. wrigley field, soldier field, navy pier, millennial park, all projects of human electric, the powerhouse contracting firm michael started in his garage back in the 1980s. those landmarks are the physical monuments to a life well-lived. but then there are also those daily intangible reminders, stories shared about how he very quietly paid school costs for a student in need or the way he volunteered his time and money to help charitable organizations all around chicago. michael was a charming, affable person, a believer in faith, family, friends, finance and fitness. together they informed everything michael did and helped him through some of the
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most trying chapters of his life. now in turn those five fs are helping his loved ones cope with their tremendous loss. as we said, michael is never far. he's in those chicago landmarks, as well as in the hearts and minds of all those he helped. thank you for letting us into your homes. "the beat" starts right now. >> hi, nicole. boy, do we have a big show for you right now. mitch mcconnell admits it. his only focus, his words, is stopping joe biden. the kind of statement that could shape the rest of this biden era, and we have the tape later tonight. "the vu" cohost sunny joins us later. we have so much to talk about. we begin inside the criminal probe into donald trump's former lawyer rudy giuliani. the feds now scouring his phones and


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