have access to good public health. and so they are much more vulnerable which makes it even more potentially dangerous to put out that information. >> indeed. doctor, thank you for being here and having this conversation with me. don't forget to check out the all new reid out black. takes on the cast of unhinged challengers in the california recall and breaks down the right wing hero worship for anti-vaxers. in all with chris hayes starts now. tonight on "all in." >> if mike pence does the right thing we win the election. >> new reporting on just how close mike pence came to caving to trump. and new alarms about the people he's tapping to help take the white house next time. tonight mark elias on the ongoing threat to democracy and stacey abrams on tonight's big voting rights compromise among democrats. and then should vaccinations be required to fly on an airline? dr. anthony fauci on why he supports the idea.

and the one and only steve kornacki is here to kick off election night coverage as we get our very first exit polls in the california recall. when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. it's election night in america. just a few hours from now polls will close in the recall election of california governor gavin newsom. first huge election of this year. we'll have more on it in a bit with steve kornacki at the big board. of course once those votes come in, right, they get counted and we go through the mechanics of the election, the actual mechanics of which how you go from votes being cast to the winner being certified, you know, that's kind of opaque. we think of it just as a process where, you know, people cast their votes and then some stuff happens and then we get the final number and the person with the most votes wins. we learned last year that it's more complicated than that. there's an entire process. it's staffed by people, you know, overwhelmingly anonymous

folks, volunteers who essentially act as guardians of democracy at key pressure points along the way. and we take them for granted. we count on these guardians to do what they're supposed to do. they oversee the polling places and count the votes accurately and certify the winner. but if you have an anti-democrat would-be authoritarian like donald trump with an anti-democratic movement committed to overturning a democratic election then all of a sudden all the people in that sort of assembly line, right, they come under pressure to do the wrong thing to subvert and destroy democracy. i mean, big example, right. we saw with the famous trump call to georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger when he said i just want to find 11,780 votes. that was one more than he needed to win. we saw trump's preposterous obviously unconstitutional anti-democratic idea that as the person who has the parliamentary

role of presiding over the senate vice president mike pence could just unilaterally decide basically who won the election, which electors to count and not count, a concept clearly completely inath muto the entire notion of self-rule and self-determine agds. but remember donald trump basically wanted mike pence to pull off a coup. he said as much on the morning of january 6th. >> i hope mike is going to do the right thing. i hope so. i hope so. because if mike pence does the right thing we win the election. all he has to do -- this is -- this is from the number one or certainly one of the top constitutional lawyers in our country. he has the absolute right to do it. all vice president pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify and we become president and you are the happiest people.

>> mike pence didn't do that. a vierant mob stormed the capitol and chanted hang mike pence because of it. and when he didn't play along mike pence that is we all walked away saying, well, mike pence did his job, saved democracy. today we're learning just how close pence came to going along with the coup. a new book by "the washington post" bob woodward and robert costa shows pence desperately trying to find someone to tell him he could do what donald trump wanted. pence reportedly called former republican vice president dan quail asking him if he was any merit to trump's plan. quail said, again, this is according to the book. i can't independently confirm it, but according to the book quail said, mike, you have no flexibility on this, none, zero, forget it. put it away. i know. that's what i've been trying to tell trump, pence said. but he really thinks he can. quail transported him, you don't, just stop him, he said.

pence, paused. you don't know the position i'm in. i also know the law. you listen to the parliamentarian. i don't know if it went down like that. luckily in the end vice president mike pence did the right thing barely reportedly. and there are a lot of people like him and georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger who in the end they did the right thing, right? no one knows if it would have wept the other way. what happens if we do this again. we do this every four years in our country where we the people decide who our leaders are. and those people are all gone. what if those people are replaced by qanon, people who believe the election is stolen, stop the steal organizers, even right wing militias. well, that is literally the future we're staring down right now.

meet arizona state representative mark fincham. he's promoted qanon conspiracy theories. there are a lot of people involved in a pedophile network and the distribution of children and that makes me absolutely sick, that of course a reference to the qanon theory there's this democratic hollywood run child sex trafficking ring. he was a member of the oath keepers. that is a far right militia. he wrote this, quote, i'm an oath keeper committed to the exercise of constitutional governance. a pretty good indicator he's an oath keeper because he wrote i'm an oath keeper. the oath keeper one of the groups who stormed the capitol. many of its members have been charged with federal crimes from that day. last week mother jones reported the fbi is investigating seditious conspiracy charges related to the groups involved in the insurrection. lest you think this is a kind of

guilt by association investigation, that is not the extent of his involvement january 6th. no, he was actually on the capitol grounds that day. tweeted a picture of trump supporters swarming the steps saying, quote, what happens when the people feel they've been ignored and congress refuses to acknowledge rampant fraud, #, stop the steal. messages released by his lawyer show he and stop the steal organizer were, quote, in touch long before january 6th. he invited him to a rally in december. e-mails appear to show an aide to congressman brooks of alabama asking for documents from finchem's meeting with trump's campaign lawyer rudy giuliani. he's got the stop the steal organizer, brooks, rudy giuliani. remember brooks was the one that gave that impassioned speech on january 6th to tell the crowd start kicking ass, before they went to the capitol and a bunch

of them bludgeoned the heads of police officers. what did he talk to rudy giuliani about? well, finchem did not give up on overturning the election. after the insurrection failed, the fraudulent audit in arizona spent more than $400,000 to hire off-duty police officers as security, and they paid that money to -- drumroll, please, a non-profit created by none other than mark finchem. state representative. he's now, by the way, running for secretary of state in arizona. yesterday mark finchem picked up a big endorsement from the man he's worked to keep in power against the will of the people, donald trump. trump called finchem a patriot, praised his, quote, incredibly powerful stance on voter fraud that took place during the 2020 presidential election scam. now, the position of arizona secretary of state is currently held by this one. you've seen her on our program probably, democrat katey hobb sfs who was stalwart in

protecting the people of her state. but what happens if you run in an election in arizona with mark finchem operating, supervising the machinery of elections in this state? well, first of all i've got to say it would be hard to trust any outcome in either direction with this guy running it to be honest. second of all, what are the odds mark finchem says, oh, the republican didn't win, there are it was fraud, therefore we're not certifying it? what kind of world are you living in if the next presidential race comes down to one state and it's arizona and there's a secretary of state who just decides he thinks there's fraud, it cannot be the democrat won. and so we're sending slate of electors of republicans. we won't certify the election. well, we would be in a constitutional crisis. one even more acute and intense than what we had in 2020. i mean people on the streets

contested legit mesmatch you'd have questions about who the security forces are going to be loyal to when everything breaks down. it's something we've seen in country after country throughout history. that's what we're looking at here. it's a little hard to communicate how close we appear to be to it. none of this is theoretical. remember general mark milly apparently feared the president and his acolytes might use the military. we managed to just barely dodge it but there was a very clear plan. and this is -- continues to be the existential democratic threat we face. now, there are people trying to put it front and center who are working every day at multiple levels to make sure that people have access to the ballot box. there are people out there that are working every day against this anti-democratic faction, a movement, right, to make sure the voting rights act is

reconstituted to protect voters from restrictive voter laws, to ensure that the ground level the machinery of democracy works as it's intended, that it's not intentionally broken by these anti-democratic forces with the goal of turning a country with a long tradition of self-rule, you know, pockmarks and all into a country where party loyalists choose the leader and not the people. someone who's committed to that fight, mark elias, election law attorney and founder of the news web site. you are someone who's sort of litigated at the ground level in state after state. you're an election lawyer sort of by training for a long time. so you know most of the kind of -- you know, the plumbing of all this. who's counting the votes, and how it's getting certified and what the deadlines are. as someone who does that what would it mean to have an individual like mark finchem as the secretary of arizona overseeing the arizona election? >> look, chris, i think you're

spot on as usual. unlike most lawyers who come to voting rights, i actually started as a recount lawyer. so i focused on the back end of the ross, the accounting and the certification of elections. and while we are doing a lot in this country to look at how do we make voting more accessible and how do we make sure that everyone can register and everyone can vote? and even doing things to protect election workers all of which are admirable. the bill the senate democrats released today, very good bill. but we also need to pay attention to the back end of that process. how do we go from ballots cast to ballots counted and certified? >> right. >> and right now we are assuming the problem is that good election officials at the top save the day. but what if the election officials at the top are not the good ones but the bad ones? >> that -- i mean, yes.

answer your own rhetorical question there. honestly just like play it through. you know, a secretary of state in a state says, you know, they had this sort of role. they certify. they get all the reports and they're the one. they're the authority. they have the authority. if the secretary of state is like i don't like the result we're not certifying it, i guess you go to court. the courts are what we're dealing with at that point, but it's not a position we want to be in. >> we go to court but there are things they can do in the interim. remember everyone focuses on the georgia 11,000 votes. but remember the president of the united states himself picked up the phone and called board officials in the state of michigan to try to get folks in detroit to send the detroit results and then try to get their statewide canvassing board members not to certify the statewide results. so before you get to, you know, the secretary of state there are a lot of steps in this process where bad actors can try to

derail democracy. and yes, you can go to court. and yes we would go to court but that's not a substitute for taking the kinds of steps we could take today to prevent those things from happening. >> that's the question. i go back and forth on whether there's a technical problem here. the plumbing is bad. use the metter, like all that stuff underneath the cabtry, behind the walls of democracy, you cast your vote and there's someone who wins. there's that idea there's technically stuff and other stuff that's like one of the two parties have been captured by a fundamentally anti-democrat faction and there's technically no legal fix to that. what should we be thinking about on that first problem? >> look, i wrote a piece on democracy docket about this exact question, in which we need to rethink the way in which we certify a count, we count ballots and we certify results are. because right now it's based on a pageantry of democracy. we have ballots tabulated at the

local level and certified to the counties and the counties issue certificates, and then those certificates go to the state and the state issues certificates. and then in presidential elections those certificates go to the electors and the electors meet certificates, and those certificates go to house and senate for further certification. two things we need to do, number one, we need to collapse the number of epties this needs to go through so there are simply fewer people who have to fill out a form with a ribbon on it. the second thing, though, we need to do, chris, is we need to replace the partisan election officials who do the certification with people who are not susceptible to political influence or susceptible to less political influence. and so those are the two things i think we need to do. >> you know, there's also -- i'm not going to lead us down the rabbit hole of the electoral count act, but when you -- you know, that also seems to me this is the -- this sort of controlling legislation at the

federal level passed after this contested election in 1876 that controls a lot of these processes which to me seems like the gun of this awful entire tragedy. like when it comes out of mike pence it's like, you know, we got this close. if mike pence gets up there and says, nope, sorry, i don't recognize it, no one knows the play after that. no one. >> it's true. but there are things before you get to the vice president of the united states where he could have been given an excuse to do that. he could have been given an excuse by the u.s. supreme court if they had sided with the state of texas in throwing out the results of four states. he could have been given an excuse if the michigan can s board had not certified. if the georgia secretary of state had not done what he did, and we need do take those excuses out of the process. >> that's well-said. and i should say you noted this before about the compromise bill. i want to read this quote because i'll talk to stacey abrams in a bit on this new piece of legislation. saying the freedom to vote act

introduced this morning reveals a surprisingly good voting rights bill. in many places it is an improvement. so you get a thumbs up which i think with count for some folks. >> i do. it's a very good bill. it's a very good voting bill and gives people the tools to protect the right to vote and ensure that republican states follow it because we can't assume that the state of texas is going to simply read this law and say, great, now we're going to do all these things. so it's a really good bill. >> that was helpful in clarifying if slightly terrifying. i appreciate it. thank you. >> thank you. still ahead today was the day as i mentioned the democrats unveiled that new compromise bill on voting rights, the freedom to vote act. does it have a chance to become a new, what do we think? i'm going to ask stacey abrams about that. before we get to that those folks i talked about, the machinery of democracy happening in the background happening

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we'll keep you ready for what's next. comcast business powering possibilities. in less than three hours 11:00 p.m. eastern, 8:00 p.m. pacific polls will close in california's recall election. governor gavin newsom will find out if he will stay in office. he needs to get 50% plus one to stay in office on that binary question recall or not.

and then the top votegetter if he's recalled, right if he gets less than that -- the top votegetter of the 46 candidates on the ballot no matter how many actual votes they get will become governor. the turnout is expected to be massive. according to "the new york times" political experts predict at least 50% of registered voters will cast ballots, roughly double the turnout that would be expected in a special election. earlier today the san diego registrar of voters says it expects a 78% turnout there. with new exit poll data just out we can start to get a picture of what governor gavin newsom's fate might be. steve kornacki is the msnbc national political correspondent, of course the one we turn to make sense of election. and he joins me now from the big board. and steve, i think you have some info for us. >> we've got a look at the exit poll here. remember we're going to get more and more data. it's only about 5:30 now in california. we get a look what the exit poll is telling us the electorate

looks like in california. let's just start with a baseline here. who'd you vote for in 2020? this is self-reported but just underscores 55% biden, 35% trump. this was a state joe biden carried by almost 30 points, so this is heavily an electorate that voted for joe biden last year. and then when you take the next step and ask folks what do you think of joe biden as president right now, do you approve of the job he's doing, 56% in the exit poll say they approve of biden's job performance. so all of this is just a way of underscoring it's a heavily democratic electorate. that's the challenge voters face. we ask folks what do you consider the most important issue in this recall campaign. you can see here a plurality saying the coronavirus is the

top issue in this campaign. however, that's not the same answer both sides of this fight are giving he. folks who say they are against the recall say by a 42% count here the coronavirus is their top issue. the folks who say they vote for the recall it's not the coronavirus their top issue. it's down at 15% for them. it's the economy, it's homelessness, it's crime. those issues rank higher for the recall supporters. >> yeah, so just to go back to that first thing because i think six weeks ago when there were some concern in democratic operative circles, political circles that newsom was in some trouble one conception of the way this race might have gone down was a turnout in which the electorate of the recall election essentially looked nothing really like the normal california electorate, and that was bad for gavin newsom, right? it seemed from the data we have that's not what's playing out

here. if when the recall goes forward it is because of based on the numbers we have a sizable chong of democrats don't like newsom and are voting for the recall. >> there was a lot of talk about is there going to be a turnout disparity here. in a state that went for joe biden by 30 points last year a turnout disparity is only going to get you so far in a recall. just a few minutes after 11:00 we're going to start getting a ton of results. i've got orange county selected here. this is a biggy. this is 3 million people just south of l.a. so take a look here. orange county, you know, went for joe biden by 9 points in last year's presidential election. this is a county used to be republican strong hold years ago, has been moving towards the democrats. as a bench mark the recall needs to be outperforming in every county. keep this number in mind

tonight. in every county the recall basically needs to be running 16 points better than trump did to have a chance. so in orange county where trump was sitting at 44%, the magic number for the recall is probably about 60%. and we're going to do this for every county on the board tonight. when the numbers start coming in they don't just have to beat trump, they've got to slaughter the trump number. they've got to hit 60 in a place. san diego county trump got 37.5. they've got to be well over 50% in san diego county. it's a steep, steel challenge. >> that was informative as always. we'll be watching you throughout the night. whatever the results in california republicans are already calling the election rigged. the threat to the very foundation of our democracy is real. it's happening across the country right now. so what can be done to stop it? stacey abrams has some ideas and she joins me live next. s has sod

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right now as i am speaking to you states across the country are in process of redrawing their congressional mapsch they do that every ten years for redistricting. and it's hugely consequential. this year the maps are more or less likely to determine which party republican other than democrats controls the house in the next election. and republican in states under their full control have pushed it in unprecedented ways in the last round of restricting including maps struck down by courts in north carolina and pennsylvania because they were so extreme. that's just one way republican can hijack american democracy in addition to those new restrictive voting laws in georgia and texas. now the justice department is suing to block the georgia law, which is big news. it's one way to sort of put a check on this. but fundamentally you need federal legislation to create minimum standards for all 50 states to strengthen our democracy. no way around it. the house has already passed two

such pieces of democracy legislation. so far democrats have struggled even to get all 50 democratic sen r senators onboard to take up the question of filibuster. that now appears to have changed. senator joe manchin of west virginia has signed onto a compromise plan called the freedom to vote act which would require same day registration by 2024 and mandate at least 15 days of early voting for a federal election. republican leader mitch mcconnell has already said his party will not supporting a federal voting rights bill which could provide political cover for president joe biden to move ahead with a public push to actually just reform the filibuster or get rid of it for this piece of legislation. stacey abrams has been instrumental in the fight to expand voting rights, the founder of fair fight, an organization that promotes free and fair elections across it country and joins me now. let me ask first where you are on this piece of legislation that was announced today that

now has as far as i understand everyone in the democratic caucus in the u.s. senate onboard. >> i am excited and very supportive of the freedom to vote act. it takes the best intentions that we have for protecting our democracy and congruatizes it. making sure we have uniform standards across this country so the quality of our democracy doesn't vary from geography to geography or based on your rates. those are two important steps and this bill takes the important pieces we need to protect our democracy, our elections and modernizes it. recognizes the challenges we faced in 2020 and 2018ival now been joined by subversion of elections, by threats and intimidation to election workers and to voters and that responds not only to what we knew we faced but to new challenges that have been brought forward by the legislation that's been passing in 18 states and that is pending in 49 states. so the freedom to vote act is an

incredibly important step forward and in tandem with the john lewis voting recognizes act will protect our democracy and keep us moving forward. >> you mentioned the threat to poll workers that have been the theme in the aftermath of the sort of failed insurrection and the run up to that failed insurrection. reuters has done some reporting on this and identified more than 100 threats of death or violence made to u.s. elebz workers and officials part ofoon unprecedented campaign of intimidation inspired by trump's claims the 2020 election were stolen. as someone who has again worked at this issue at the ground level for a long time what is the effect of that? >> it has a chilling effect, first of all, on peoples willingness to actually administer our elections. when you know that your willingness to help move democracy forward will be met with death threats the likelihood of you continuing

that work is almost no. and that's why we're watching unprecedented numbers of people retire or resign from the process. it also emboldens those who would continue to control the election at the state level. that's why it's critical we have federal legislation. >> the georgia law which you mentioned georgia and texas and a number of other states that have limited or tinkered with the rules, right, around elections in such ways that will make it more difficult for people to vote, the doj has filed suit i believe was announced back in june. there's a real question how much of a check these doj actions can be particularly in the landscape we exist in with the voting rights as it's currently constituted. what's your feeling how much the doj can play the role we want it to play in sort of basically enforcing those constitutional

standards? >> i believe in belts, suspenders and twine around your waist to hold things up. we're under assault by those who would declare themselves insurrectionists and undermine the premise of our nation by undermining democracy. i want the department of justice to be at the forefront of pushing back against these laws. i want them to be at the forefront demanding action, but we also need our congress to step up. we need our executive branch, our judicial branch and our legislative branches. and the freedom to vote act ensures the ledge s slative branch takes its step. and what we're doing while we wait is ensure the justice department that works for all of us, they're doing their best to protect and ensure our efforts of the right to vote and hopefully with these two places in place we'll have a judiciary that recognizes its responsibility is not partisanship but patriotism and start to reverse some of the

terrible decisions they've made in the past decade. >> one of the focal points of these laws very much so in georgia and texas but particularly by others is vote by mail. it's interesting because vote by mail for a long time it actually favored republicans. republicans to the extent we have data on this were more likely to vote by mail than democrats were. that switched during covid and the behavioral differences between different political parties and coalitions. one of the things the new legislation would do is sort of standardize, regularize vote by mail. what do you think of voting by mail as a tool, and how do you view it as a permanent aspect of elections going forward even as the pandemic maybe wanes although hasn't really waned all that much yet. >> georgia republicans pioneered access to voting by mail in 2005, 2006, and they proved over the course of years it is a very effective way of voting. so effective in 2018 we strongly

encouraged every voter to use it, and we saw a shift in the population that used to vote by mail. what happened in 2020 is that we recognized that in this day and age, in a modern era being able to vote by mail is an essential part of participating in our democracy. everyone was promising covid would be over or certainly some people were promising covid would be over. we find ourselves in the second year of this process or second year of this pandemic, but what we do know is vote by mail is safe, it's secure and provides even greater access to democracy because communities that rely on it like the disabled, like the elderly should not be the only ones who have the ability to access our democracy when challenges happen. it works. it's safe, it's good and republicans have spent more than a decade proving it and we believe them now. >> finally i want to get your response to what mitch mcconnell said today. so we can count to 50 votes for i think the new voting rights

slagz today. here's mcconnell today on this piece of legislation and the republican caucuses reception on it. >> you're watching some states pass new laws based upon the experience we had last year during a 100-year pandemic. what do all these new laws have in common. none of them not one is designed to suppress the vote based upon race. so there's no reason for the federal government to take over how we conduct elections. >> what do you say to that? >> i grew up in the south and there's a phrase that we've heard growing up and that's a hit dog will holler. what we know is that what is before our congress, what the u.s. senate has put together of these 50 senators are asking their 50 colleagues to do is stand up for democracy. we know that these bills were designed to thwart and suppress voters of color, young voters, voters with disabilities, voters

who are inconvenient to the minority power play that mitch mcconnell wants to purvey. but what we also know is if we speak up, if we take the time as fair fight will do this year with freedom to vote fall, if we call our u.s. senators, if we do our job and work with stand up america to demand our u.s. senators, democrat, republican and independent do their job, then we can prove to mitch mcconnell that we can indeed have a free and fair election system that responds not only to the record turnout we saw but the record response we are seeing that continues the insurgency. we need to make certain that no matter where you live in america your right to vote is real and protected. and i call on mitch mcconnell and all his colleagues to stand with democrats and say we believe in patriotism over partisanship and the freedom to vote act is going to be the bill that makes it so. >> stacey abrams, great to get the chance to talk to you

tonight. >> thank you for having me. president biden was in colorado today. he's been chris crossing the country quite a bit touring a renewable energy lab as part of his big push. and an ambitious part of his agenda is the plan for over half of all new cars sold by 2030 to be electric. we talked about it a bit on this show, but i finally got to have an in-depth conversation about the electric vehicle revolution with bloomberg reporter dana hall in my podcast why is this happening. we talked about the feasibility of biden's target to the electric vehicle revolution to how i personally can realize my dad dream of getting an all electric mini van. up next there's new proof vaccine mandates are working so should vaccines be mandated for air travel? dr. anthony fauci thinks they should. he'll join me live coming up. t should he'll join me live coming up ck. an alternative to pain pills voltaren is

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after a year of playing in front of empty seats the nfl kicked off its 2021 season this weekend with no capacity limitation whatsoever, the result was packed stadiums all across the country. an nfl executive telling the associated press that all 30 stadiums are able to be at full capacity and that's how we expect to go through the season in lock step with those local and state authorities. well, today the buffalo bills citing their health department directive announced they will require fans 12 and over to show proof of at least one dose of the covid vaccine until halloween until which point noil need to prove they're fully vaccinated. the new orleans saints and seattle sea hawks for similar proof of vaccination policies in place. now, the las vegas raiders debuting last night on monday night football were the first to issue a blanket requirement for fans to be vaccinated to attend home games. and they even offered to vaccinate fans on site on game day. yesterday at a packed allegiant

stadium in las vegas there was a designated area where unvaccinated fans could join the ranks of the jabbed and walk into the stadium wearing a mask. that is the thing about vaccine mandates. as long as you require them or where people can get access to them, they work. talk it from dr. ronny jackson, trump's scale fudging white house physician turned republican congressman. >> did you get vaccinated? >> i got vaccinated. the only reason i got vaccinated, brian, because i knew i'm on a foreign affairs committee and armed services and i knew nancy pelosi was not going to let me travel on congressional delegations if i didn't get it. otherwise i probably wouldn't have got it because i otherwise am pretty healthy. >> the "fox & friends" by the way they know all about vaccine requirements because today fox corps, head of human resources said more than 90% of fox employees have been vaccinated, some is great news because fox mandates employees disclose

their vaccine status. and if they're not vaccinated they have to get tested daily. in other words, just to be clear here, the fox news vaccine policy is considerably stricter than joe biden's. which it turns out is popular according to a new poll from aci don't sa axios. the question is is it time to go even further and begin mandates for the one thing that has sort of escaped it so far, travel, mass transit. should any person flying on a commercial airline in this country be required to show proof of vaccination before being allowed on a plane? there's one prominent official who says he's in favor of that, dr. anthony fauci. he'll be here with me to talk about it next. y fauci. he'll be here with me to talk about it next. ♪ got that bourbon street steak with the oreo shake ♪ ♪ get some whipped cream on the top too ♪ ♪ two straws, one check, girl, i got you ♪ ♪ bougie like natty in the styrofoam ♪ ♪ squeak-squeakin' in the truck bed all the way home ♪

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a week's worth of food and water, radio, flashlight, batteries and first aid kit are a good start to learn more, visit safetyactioncenter.pge.com when you build a political movement whose emotional core is transgression and cruelty ultimately no one is safe from that kind of treatment. so what kind of governance will that lead to the next time folks got power? the next time folks got power? the transportation safety administration, the tsa will double the fines on travelers and refuse to mask. if you break the rules be

prepared to pay. and by the way show some respect. the anger you see on television toward flight attendants and others doing their job is wrong. it's ugly. >> last week president joe biden announced a set of sweeping coronavirus vaccine standards covering tens of millions of workers across it country. it did not include a vaccine requirement for airline passengers. many airlines like united and tron tear airlines require their employees to get vaccinated, a big question is should a vaccine mandate be extended to passengers? dr. anthony fauci arrangemently said while he's not proposing a mandate he'd support one if president bide called for it. and joining me now is dr. anthony fauci, director of the national institute of allergy and infection diseases. chief medical advisor to joe biden. good to have you, dr. fauci. it seems to me there's a natural -- of all the places we go in america sort of the most controlled where you have to go

through a lot of stuff to do it it's getting on a plane. they're also enclosed spaces with circulating air. it does seem like that would be a natural place to have this kind of requirement. >> you know, yes, it would be. but as you mentioned right now this is something that is on the table that's being discussed. and as you quoted me correctly i said that i'm not proposing it but if the president decided all other things considered in that decision i would certainly support that. but you should know that these types of discussions are ongoing all the time, chris and they're still on the table. a decision hasn't been made and if the president makes a decision i certainly would support that for the reasons that you mentioned. >> well, take me through -- i mean this seems like a perfect example of one of the kind of policy conundrums of covid. as i said many times the science isn't quite totally settled. it's a novel virus.

things are changing all the time, "a," and "b" the things are necessary but not sufficient for policy declaration about a bunch of competing inequities and imperatives. how do you think through this kind of question about air travel? >> what you do first of all there has to be a major health component of it that you want to do what's best for the public health. but sometimes there are other things that are involved in there that might in essence thing that you don't think of might get in the way a certain type of push back, a certain type of regulation you might overcome. although public health and science clearly always drives everything that we've done. and the president has made that very clear right from the very beginning that he's going to have the science, drive, what we do. right now these things under discussion and may occur but it's not. the president went so far in his six point program of doing a lot of different mandates as you

well know. when you have the companies that have 100 or more people they're either going to get vaccinated or get tested. when you have the federal government particularly the executive branch, when you have individuals who are involved in patient care through medicare and medicaid, they've got to get vaccinated. so he's really done an awful lot in the area of mandates and he'll consider doing more at the time it's appropriate. >> there's a bit of a debate swirling about booster shots. and i think, again, this is a place where there's not -- the science is a little unsettled, a little unclear. there's some arguments in both directions. i wanted to read to you some political reporting on this. the white house and top officials said in august they planned shots for most adults beginning september 20th. those are booster shots. the move sparked tensions among biden's top aids, the cdc and fda on questions whether the data supported the goal. to senior vaccine scientists who are leaving the agency

coauthored an analsis published monday in the lancet to support giving booster shots. talk me through how we should think about this. >> you know, that's a great question, and hopefully we can sort of dispel some of the confusion here, chris. if you look at the data from the cohorts in the united states that the cdc is following, unquestionably there's a waning of immunity against infection and mild to moderate disease. there is a suggestion, a clear suggestion but not overwhelming that there's a diminution in protection against hospitalization. when you look at the israeli data, in every aspect of this outbreak, in vaccinations and boosters, in all the kinds of things important in this, they've been about a month or month and a half ahead of us. what they're seeing, and we've

had the opportunity through their courtesy to see their data in a confidential way, and also they're publishing the data. and they're coming out in the peer reviewed, literally within the next day or so, their data is much more dramatic, chris. they have a very clear-cut diminution of protection against infection and an unquestionable diminution in the protection against severe disease, and it goes across all the age groups, so i think that the colleagues who are making that statement that there isn't good data there to make that kind of a move have not seen all the data, and i think when the data becomes public a lot is going to be clarified and a lot of this so-called conflict is going to get resolved. >> meaning that the israeli data you think is highly suggestive for what the trajectory of this is generally because they were sort of a first mover, essentially. they were the fastest and

rapidly deployed. so they're our future is the concede here? >> you know, i think it would be reasonable and appropriate to say that israel is where likely we will be in the next month or so. so in the spirit of trying to stay ahead of the virus, that's the reason why you heard a couple of weeks ago that we made a plan to be able to rollout vaccinations in the week of september 20th. and it was always underlining contingent on the fda analyzing the data and making a regulatory decision. and literally as we speak the fda is now doing just that. they're analyzing the data, and if they analyze the data and get all the data, they get the israeli data, they get the united states data, and they very carefully go over it, if they come to a determination that we should be rolling out

the boosters, we'll do it. if they say no, we won't do it. >> got you. all right, well, we'll look for that. this matters a lot to a lot of people. dr. anthony fauci, as always thanks so much for joining us. >> good to be with you. that is all in for tonight. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. we got the book. we got it early. the book is called "peril" by "the washington post" journalists bob woodward and robert robert costa. it's not being published until next week. we've obtained a copy tonight, evidence of speed-reading here, a rachel maddow specialty. this book has important news in it. what this book is about broadly speaking the peril it's

describing in its title is just how fraught and dangerous the period was for the country surrounding the