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tv   MTP Daily  MSNBC  October 5, 2021 10:00am-11:00am PDT

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warns of an economic catastrophe if the u.s. defaults on its debt. it's set to happen in less than two weeks unless congress acts. one of the most intriguing revelations in the pandora papers. why some of the big aboutest -- biggest billionaires are sheltering their money in south dakota. the cayman islands of the united states. ♪♪ >> welcome to "meet the press" daily. we're going to begin with the latest developments from capitol hill, and this has nothing to do with the debt ceiling and that ridiculousness. this is about facebook where frances haugen, the former facebook employee turned whistleblower is testifying.
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to children, to democracy and society at large. that's all. today's testimony comes three weeks after "the wall street journal" first reported on much of this facebook internal research, which it received, we now know, from haugen, and two days after she revealed her identity if an interview on "60 minutes" telling lawmakers about her concerns over facebook's disregard for safety and the spread of divisive content and called on congress to address the dangers of the social media giant's outsized power and influence. >> i'm here today because i believe facebook's products harm children, stoke division, and weaken our temsy. the company's leadership knows how to make facebook and instagram safer but won't make the necessary changes because they have put their astronomical profits before people. congressional action is needed. >> today's hearing comes a day after facebook as well as its platforms instagram and what's app were out of service for five
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hours, an outage that caused disruption well beyond social media, global disruption for many who use whatsapp and facebook for retail sales. big question facing lawmakers of today's hearing, what to do about the dangers that are posed by the social media giant. haugen suggested in her testimony the regulators, lawmakers and the public need a better understanding of how the company operates before it figures out how to regulate it. >> no one truly understand the destructive choices made by facebook except facebook. we can afford nothing less than full transparency. as long as facebook is operating in the shadows, hiding its research from public scrutiny, it is unaccountable. until the incentives change, facebook will not change. >> in terms of what comes next, several committee members are comparing facebook to big tobacco. there's plenty of bipartisan anger toward the company which means there's an appetite for
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change to do something. the question is what is that something? because it's unclear what congress can and will do to address this problem. but we want to dig into a little bit. joined by our correspondent garrett haake, jair jacob ward in menlo park on the west coast and mike isaac is a technology reporter for the new york times. p garrett, let me start with you, this is one of the rare days where it's not a political argument taking place via the questioning, but actually, members of congress seeming to actually want to figure out what can we learn from this whistleblower and what more do we need to know to decide how to -- how to tackle this regulatory challenge? >> chuck, i think one of the things they're learning they they'd to know a lot more than they do. this has been the problem for congress as it's tried to figure out how to regulate big tech and the social media platforms in general. they couldn't get their arms around it.
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they were behind on the technology, behind on cultural significance of these platform and having a whistleblower here no at company official, not someone with any agenda other than exposing what they know, took some of the steam out of what, you know, we sometimes are involved in, partisan hearings where people are trying to score political points. this was a fact finding hearing. i think the opening you played from haugen, opening up facebook's data will be key. lawmakers have tried to come at facebook in a couple ways, whether it be on an antitrust basis or on a data protection basis or content management which republicans have talked about as a form censorship, none of those things have exactly worked and the solution here may be trying to require facebook to share a little bit more of how the special sauce, the algorithm works. they don't have competitors. they are a legal monopoly in so many ways. a lot of questioning focused around trying to understand how facebook shows us what it
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chooses to show us before they could even start trying to regulate it. i think the scope of that problem is in many ways revealed today. >> you know, it's interesting, garrett, i almost think that the whistleblower is going to have to be hired as a legal aide on congress, by congress, when they figure out who to subpoena and what to subpoena. is that what we're learning here? some ways it's going to turn into a job interview for her to come work with congress to fig this out? >> it might. i know you're being a little fa tee shus but this is a challenge. tech companies have run circles around congress. that is really hamstrung congress' ability to even keep up. having someone with technical expertise and inside knowledge about how these companies work i think will be a necessary step to affect regulation.
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again, i think we're only getting startd in that conversation. >> garrett haake on the point of view from congress. let's go to menlo park where jacob is. jacob be i'm curious, i mean i've been on the receiving end a bit of what facebook is -- how they're trying to respond to the whistleblower, what they believe is fair game, what they believe isn't. like they really cringe at the tobacco company comparison. i'm curious, how are they treating her, the individual, miss haugen? i notice that they're trying to question what role she played at the company, but that can be dangerous territory with a whistleblower? >> it's been very interesting to watch their reaction evolve over time, chuck. yesterday, they were still sticking to a policy of not really naming her or addressing her directly, but today you had vice president of communications tweeting out that miss haugen did not work on the teams
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responsible for kids and teens and thereby insinuating somehow she's not qualified to talk about it. she's seeming to predict this or anticipate this, actually said in her testimony, i did not work on these teams, but the documents that i took out of the company were documents that everybody inside the company at a certain level had access to. i thought that was very interesting. i also think it's very considering, you know, both you and garrett are making a good point that congress has been behind -- lawmakers behind the ball when it came to tech regulation in the past, but i think this is the most sophisticated questioning i have seen yet. this and some of the hearing and if you just follow what frances haugen lays out, she lays out a very clear road map for what she thinks should be effective regulation. she says open up the company's data to researchers outside of facebook so they are no longer keeping it all inside and regulate not the content, but the algorithms which she again
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and again made the point are responsible for cur raitting things she said leads to bullying, politicians taking positions that make no sense but spread widely on facebook and leads even to terrible crimes in countries like ethiopia, chuck. >> jacob, the other thing that happened yesterday, it turned out to be a coincidence but in some ways may have unintentionally made the argument that facebook is a potential monopoly, and that is the fact that it had a server problem that knocked facebook, instagram, and whatsapp all off line which had a global impact and again, i think it sent the message at the wrong time to congress, of just how powerful this one company is. literally they could pull the plug on commerce for billions of people. >> it is extraordinary. i mean one of the things that our traditional law making has struggled with with facebook,
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defining its scope and influence in our lives and monetary terms or in any other terms. what we saw pretty clearly during the five hours of the total blackout on all its products, you're talking about not just losing the opportunity to waste time on facebook, you're talking about family members not able to communicate across borders on whatsapp, one of the primary ways the communities communicate across countries. you had instagram totally unable to do what they do, and so any argument that facebook may have made in the past about we are not an infrastructure, we do not have that kind of monopoly, it looked like a big chunk of infrastructure, a big almost utility knocked down for that five-hour period, chuck. >> well, i guess that in mark zuckerberg has wanted to say, facebook is a utility, okay, but utilities are heavily, heavily regulated. jacob and garrett, thank you both. let me bring in mike, technology reporter for the "new york
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times" and i want to play one more example of i think that's being laid out here that facebook has a lot of power that government needs to take a look at and that is, this exchange on january 6th between senator klobuchar and miss haugen. take a listen. >> and you know that the insurrection occurred january 6th. do you think that facebook turned off the safeguards because they were costing the company money? because it was reducing profits? >> facebook has been emphasizing a false choice. they've said the safeguards in place before the election implicated free speech. the choices happening on the platform were about how reactive and twitchy was the platform, how viral was the platform. facebook changed those safety defaults in the run up to the election because they knew they were dangerous. and because they wanted that growth back, they wanted the acceleration of the platform back after the elect, they returned to their original defaults.
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>> mike, this gets at another issue that another source of mine once said about three years ago, which is, facebook figure ed out how to get rid of child pornography for the most part and root that out. some of the things they claim they can't touch it's been proven they can. they can regulate some speech if they choose to. they did for a period of time. they do control -- they have a monopoly on global communications it appears when you look at whatsapp and instagram and what happens when they go down. does this not basically open the -- not a red carpet for government regulation? >> you know, i thought the thing that miss haugen was saying was super interesting and sort of indictment of how facebook fundamentally works at its core, right. like you said, they can go in and make changes and say this is an extraordinary time around the
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lech it's very dangerous, we need to take a heavier hand than we normally would, but it sort of underscores how quickly things can spread across the platform and how facebook likes to say they're a mirror to society, but they're more of an accelerant to society and can pour fuel on any fire quickly spreading across the platform. i think typically they don't like taking a heavy hand in interacting with how -- what's spreading across the platform and how, but the reason the january 6th example is crucial because it shows that this is normally how the platform works and they can and do sometimes step in to stop it. >> it's also an acknowledgement that they're playing a role? that's the other part of this. the fact that they could, right, turn the volume up or down is a big deal. i'm curious what your take was on i think she's -- the whistleblower, miss haugen, laying out an argument that the
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current set of regulators in the united states' government isn't equipped to regulate facebook. that almost makes this seem like an even larger problem to tackle. whenever government creates agencies, lately it hasn't gone well. >> i mean if you remember back to 2018, the cambridge analytica revelations how that was leading the news for weeks if not months and no substantive bills have come out of that that have gotten through congress or changes enacted. i think to give, you know, capitol hill a bit more credit, the questions have evolved over the years since those first hearings. we had if you remembers the sound bite, senator we run ads when asked how facebook works, so this hearing has gone very differently compared to the past. but she really is laying out a case that there is serious regulation to be had here, the number of lobbyists on capitol
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hill who sort of sway -- from facebook who sway their opinions and votes essentially is a ver ritble be fall lang of people influencing and more folks in different governments, not just the u.s. government, should be able to step in and interview. she's going to do that when she starts speaking abroad at different conferences in europe in the coming weeks. >> what are you hearing from the other technology company that on one hand are loving the fact that it's facebook taking the arrows, but on the other hand, maybe they're afraid that the government regulating could hurt them, whether i'm referring to snap, tiktok and twitter in particular? >> yeah. totally. it's a double-edged sword. for a long time youtube and google were very content with facebook being the sort of punching bag for congress and i remember hearing a few years ago where twitter, google and
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facebook were all sort of present to testify and it was basically like the two other companies were hiding behind the guy at facebook waiting to take the hits. i think they, you know, probably a sort of shun on seeing this sort of powerful reckoning around facebook, but they are totally nervous. i think constantly folks at youtube have been waiting for the other shoe to drop and for folks to go after youtube and reign them in, but i think youtube is even probably harder to get folks' mind around because the people who do the regulating don't use youtube on the same level the they do facebook's properties. >> well, it's not -- i think it's interesting and youtube certainly doing what it did on covid last week tells you they're trying to not get government's attention too quickly. they're doing what they can. pay no attention to what we're doing right now please. anyway. mike isaac -- >> that's right. >> yeah. really appreciate having you on
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and your expertise with us on this beat. thank you, sir. >> thanks, chuck. later this hour, we're going to talk to one of the members of congress trying to figure out just what does regulating big tech look like? first, president biden is heading to michigan to sell his legislative agenda. michigan and pennsylvania, what do those states have in common? even as he's trying to get members of his own party to buy in. the top bidens whisperer in the democratic party jim clyburn joins me next and how the party is going to avert this economic calamity. conomic calamity cough cough sneeze sneeze... [ sneezing ] needs, plop plop fizz fizz. alka seltzer plus cold relief. dissolves quickly. instantly ready to start working. so you can bounce back fast with alka-seltzer plus. now available for fast sinus relief. you need an ecolab scientific clean here. and here. which is why the scientific expertise that helps operating rooms stay clean
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welcome back. another day, another meeting between president biden and democratic lawmakers. today's meeting with some democrats who face the toughest re-election fights next year. it came just before president biden left for michigan home to democratic congresswoman elise
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slotken -- alyssa slotken who won a seat in the 2018 midterm, flipped a republican seat. biden met with progressive house members and discussed a package priced around $2 trillion and our sources tell us those progressives informed the president they would support whatever top line number he could get from the moderate democrats. this comes with two weeks to go before the debt limit is breached. republicans are standing by, leaving it to the democrats to act and they have few options. joining us is how house democratic whip, on again/off again biden whisperer, jim buy clyburn, good to see you. >> thank you for having me. >> so look, i know how he can cited all members of congress are to negotiate in public on television, but the $2 trillion number in what progressives said
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are reporting is that your sense that the president has brought progressives along there and if he can get to that number everybody is going to be on board? >> you know, i have been saying for quite some time now that i thought that of there a sweet spot somewhere between manchin's 1.5 and biden or the senate's 3.5 and it seems as if there's a lot of work being done to find that sweet spot. but the problem is, what will we do and for whom? the debate that's going on in our party is focusing on family and there are some people who want the focus to be towards season -- and i'm one of them, i'm a senior and i don't mind
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the focus -- but we're going to means test things like medicare, and, therefore, you have a lot of seniors who are pretty wealthy people who will be getting this benefit. i'm more interested right now in getting people started on life's journey and these low-income familieses that need medicaid to be expanded. >> right. >> to me, is where some of the focus ought to be. there should be some balance here. that's the debate going on. a lot of people are saying there's infighting. there's no infighting. there's just people trying to make their case as to where the emphasis ought to be. >> to read between the lines you're saying look, there's a lot of elder care ideas that are out there, and trust me, there's a lot of us of a certain age in that sweet spot of elderly parents and kids under 18, right, you have the squeeze and i know that you want to try to
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address that, but then there's a big chunk of whether it's universal pre-k, free community college, which is helping families get started, helping people get started up the economic ladder, it sounds like you're saying if you have to make a choice, spend more money on pre-k and the younger stuff first? >> well, that's where my emphasis is. getting young people started on life's journey. i think that when you leave children out of the equation, we have people trying to go to post-secondary education, college, because i do believe that there's a lot of good living to be done with post-secondary education that there may not be a liberal arts college, we have to get people, get them on with their life's journey in such a way that they will be productive and will
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maintain that pursuit until the finish. >> when it comes to the debt limit, i understand the frustration. the republicans have no interest in helping. they're trying to cause chaos. it's clear what the strategy is. why isn't the reaction, fine, all right, mitch mcconnell, you want to do it this way, this is the last time you ever get a chance to use the weapon again, and we're going to change the rules of the debt limit, it takes a veto proof majority, two-thirds idea or something? if you're going to be forced to act alone, why not take the -- make sure it's never held hostage again? >> well, that's the way i feel about a lot of things. i feel that way about the debt limit. i've been advocating since i've been in the congress that i think the debt limit is a thing, might bes the only country left
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that has got that. we need to get rid of that. we will need to get rid of the filibuster on constitutional issues, so i do believe that 50% plus 1 ought to carry the day with the debt limit as well as with people's civil and constitutional rights. we have some archaic rules that we need to just get rid of. this debt limit business is archaic and needs to be throwns to the trash pile. >> you have been, i would argue, probably one of the most important unofficial political advisors or sayers to the party and to joe biden. you see the current situation that he's in right now. what is your advice to him how to navigate what is clearly a tough time for him and the democrats politically? >> to stay true to his principle. joe biden ran on the campaign of
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bringing people together. he's made those kinds of proposals. the american rescue act is a very, very popular piece of legislation that we're now implementing. called it a plan because it's no longer an act. now we're dealing with popular issues when it comes to infrastructure, as well as so-called family infrastructure. these are very popular program. but popular programs with the voting public is not the same thing trying to satisfy partisan republicans because what is more unnecessary than putting the full faith and credit of the united states in peril? they're perfectly willing to do that because they think they get some partisan advantage for doing it. so i think that joe biden and the democrats need to stay in close touch with the american people and put in place policies
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and procedures in the process that will allow us to do our work with that 50% plus 1 and not worry about all the super majority stuff that the filibuster allow. it's time for us to get beyond that. >> congressman clyburn, number three in the house leadership, democrat from south carolina, always appreciate getting your perspective on things. thank you, sir. >> thank you very much for having me. up ahead, the latest covid confusion as the cdc now removes its guidance against in-person family gatherings for the holidays. plus the disturbing rise in violence against medical staff in hospitals across the country you're watching "meet the press daily." ily. me feel lie i was trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of people living with bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place... ...and be hard to manage. latuda could make a real difference
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under three presidents and the longest sevening director ever and he will leave by end of the year. from the cdc, their holiday guidance is under construction. we told you that cdc published new recommendation for the holiday season. well, those recommendations have been removed from the website. the agency is expected to come out with updated guidance in the coming days. don't worry, thanksgiving still in november and christmas in december. in missouri, at least one hospital will arm nurses and staff with panic buttons on their badges to deal with a surge in workplace violence after ap recent study found a majority of nurses who treated covid-19 patients during a five month period in 2020 experienced physical abuse at work at least once. this is a terrible trend we're
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seeing, harassment of that, of school board members. we're getting into a dangerous place here. social media seems to make people think they can just behave any way they want. nbc correspondent cal perry has been following the story of the increased violence against health care workers. as i was saying it feels like there's not a walk of life that hasn't seen increased tension and the dangers of physical interactions whether flight attendants, members of congress, members of the media and with covid, health care staff. >> yeah. i think social media as you're pointing out is a pretty good place to start. there is this disinformation war happening in america and in talking to doctors and administers the masks and vaccines are causing a lot of friction at these hospitals. the other thing that is happening is the nature of this virus. anyone who has a loved one and has take an loved one to the hospital knows it's an impossible thing to imagine being separated from the person. 700,000 americans die and a lot
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of them unfortunately have died alone. that is nature that is causing standoffs. it is having a devastating effect on those work inside this industry. >> there's fewer and fewer people that feel they can bear the risk to come to work. the risk of being he can posed to covid, the risk of verbal, physical, sexual assault. those are real risks to a lot of folks. it's gotten worse. this is a phenomenon that predates far before the pandemic began. it's certainly become wore over the last 18 months. >> reporter: the bureau of labor statistics now says you're five times more likely to be injured in the workplace if you work in health care services. i was talking to some nurses yesterday who told me that before they go to the supermarket they're taking off their badges. i cannot kind of wrap my head around that. i was thinking 20 years ago, clapping for firefighter and
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police officers and 20 years later health care workers afraid to wear their identifications in public places. chuck? >> and this is only leading to the staff shortage that we have, we're short on nurses anyway and now the job becomes less appealing anyway. not a good situation. cal perry on the ground for us, thank you. up next, i'm going to talk to a member of congress who says facebook is a monopoly, not seen since the era of oil barons and railroad tycoons but is there anything to be done about it? you're watching "meet the press daily". you're watching "meet the press daily" knows everyone's unique. that's why they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh, yeah. that's the spot. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪
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in the past weeks and days, parents have contacted me with their stories, heart breaking, and spine chilling stories, about children pushed into eating disorders, bullying online, self-injury of the most
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disturbing kind, and sometimes even taking their live because of social media. >> it is clear that facebook prioritizes profit over the well-being of children and all users. >> welcome back. we know there's bipartisan anger towards facebook but what's not clear is whether congress can turn the rhetoric into actual regulation. i'm joined by david cicilline, a democrat from rhode island, he's been deeply involved with the issue of big tech and regulation and congressman, to me the most fascinatings aspect of miss haugen's testimony is i think she's making the case -- and i'm curious if you conquer with her -- that there currently is not a government entity or agency that is prepared to regulate this industry with which facebook is the leader in? do you agree? >> look, thank you for having
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me, i think we learned from her testimony what we learned during the course of the investigation we conducted for 16 months, that facebook is a monopoly, it has monopoly power, too big and too powerful to care and it, in fact, puts profits over everything else. we have legislation we've already passed out of the judiciary committee in a bipartisan way to produce more competition, to restore competition in the digital marketplace. that's part of the solution to give people other choices than facebook. but in addition we have to, in fact, pass legislation that will make facebook accountable for amplifying toxic and dangerous content. they rely on a business model that allows them and other platform to extract all of this personal data from folks and then use it to generate revenue in ads and in doing so, they have a business model recognizes that the most outrageous, most untrue claims tend to engage people more deeply so they make more money. they have no incentive to curate
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what's on their platform. they can't be permitted to regulate themselves because they won't do it. it's congress' responsibility, the doj, ftc to have tool, but congress has the responsibility to update and modernize our antitrust laws and prevent the conduct that whistleblower spoke about today. >> you're supposed to protect us as consumers, and we're all consumers in this case. so that is what i'm curious of. it sounds like you think you could do this through the ftc, perhaps you could do it through some of the consumer laws that are out there, but i'm curious, what specifically, you know, let me throw it this way, i think the issue of algorithm safety is something that's very hard for us to explain but you may get where i'm going to find out if an algorithm has been written and if it can be abused or weaponized that somebody needs to sort of look at this from an
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outside, maybe it's not a government internet person but maybe it's an outside board, you know, maybe it's the -- like the motion picture association, but with more teeth or something. who is going to look and handle that? these algorithms are what make these companies go. >> i think there's a robust discussion under way right now about section 230 and the use of algorithms in terms of whether or not immunity from liability should attach to everything. some people think when you post something on facebook that's one action, but facebook takes that posting and applies a complicated set of algorithms to maximize its profits that's a set of business decisions. you could make facebook liable, you could reform section 230 and make them liable for those business decisions that amplify and spread toxic or dangerous information. i think section 230 reform is
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part of it. using all of the resources if of the ftc, doj and congress up dating our antitrust laws to inject more competition into this place. part of the problem facebook has no competitors and they're so large, they can basically do what they want. so restoring competition, prohibiting certain behaviors and then hold them accountable and responsible for their business decisions to amplify toxic or dangerous material. >> let me ask you this, if boeing comes up with a new of using an automatic pilot mode in their airplane and they believe it's a proprietary invention, they still have to disclose everything this invention does and how it works to the faa to get that approval. it's as if we don't -- if facebook comes up with a
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proprietary algorithm, they don't seem to think they have to share that. how do you make them share that? >> there's a number of ways. you can require algorithmic audits to do what they claim they do, interest greater transparency for algorithms, an agency responsible for looking at their practices, either its impact on competition or on fairness to the consumers are two obvious places. that's only part of the solution. the problem is, because their business model allows them to collect data and then use that data to construct advertising and take the same information and use it as a basis to connect people whatever the content, toxic or dangerous or untrue, and so part of this is, again, gets back to the fact they're too big. they're too big to care, they have no competition, they have no rules, and congress has a role to play, so do our agencies and the ftc and the department of justice.
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but, you know, facebook is arguing this is just -- there's nothing we can do about it. that's just not true. they will spend billions and billions and billions of because they want to protect this ecosystem that has generated profits never seen in the history of the world. we have got to get control of this. this is dangerous for our democracy, dangerous for young people, dangerous for our public health and we have a responsibility to do something about it and we've done that work and the antitrust subcommittee and more work remains to be done for sure. >> the outage yesterday, the outage that took down whatsapp, instagram and facebook, doesn't that make the case that i mean literally one company can pull the plug on global commerce for millions or billions of people, i know we don't worry about monopolies outside the united states, but did that not just make the case they're a monopoly? >> absolutely. and as we've known, the history
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of our country is a battle between democracy and monopoly and, you know, that made the case perfectly. this company and many of the other large technology platforms are just too big to care and they have been allowed to acquire and grow without any constraint, any serious review and that period has finally ended and in a bipartisan way, we've taken on the monopoly power of facebook and other large technology giants and going to rein in their power once and for all. >> i've been promised a digital bill of rights for americans' privacy for some time, at some point i think you're going to see those demands glow as well. congressman, who has been on the frontlines of this issue, thank you for sharing your perspective with us. >> my pleasure a state of emergency declared in california as the emergency intensifies of the west coast oil spill impacting orange county,
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there is no longer an active leak, but he also suggested a ship's anchor could be to blame. the quote? a distinct possibility. experts warn it could be weeks before the full extent of this damage is known. as people on the gulf coast knows about oil spills, people on the atlantic knows, it can take years before you see the remnants go away. south dakota is home to mt. rushmore, the badlands, and according to leaked documents, vast amounts of money that rich people are trying to hide. to quote the movie "fletch," the story is south dakota, frank. it's south dakota. you're watching "meet the press daily." daily. tonight, i'll be eating salmon sushi
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financial documents, these are called the pandora papers, have revealed where many world leaders and other wealthy figures are allegedly hiding their billions from tax authority. believe it or not, one of those places is right here in the united states. it's not an island, it's south dakota. the documents were given to the consortium of investigative journalists. many news agencies are combing through the documents. nbc news is not one of them. you would think maybe bermuda. but south dakota is the story in this one, because according to pandora papers, it is a big place to hide money. south dakota has allowed it to be a prime place for international billionaires to shield their assets. sometimes south dakota can provide more privacy and secrecy than other overseas tax havens.
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you might ask, how the heck can they do that? we have one of the "washington post" reporters on this subject, debbie sensniper. south dakota can hide money from the government in the u.s. how? >> south dakota is a go-to destination for hiding wealth because it offers more secrecy, more privacy, more discretion than the places you just talked about, the cayman islands and other places. they were able to do this through laws that were passed year after year after year that made it so customer friendly that this state was able to draw billions and billions of dollars in assets from millionaires and billionaires, including those from overseas. >> what do they gain from it, though, if they don't get to tax
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it? they're just housing it. are they making a fee? i mean, is there like a 1% tax they're getting for using south dakota's state legislature as their personal hideaway? >> that was the very first question we asked when i started working on this with my colleagues at the international consortium of investigative journalists that obtained these records and shared them with the "washington post" and other media outlets. in states like south dakota, alaska, nevada, new hampshire where they have these thriving trust industries, they essentially promised to create good, clean jobs and new revenue for the state fees. what we've learned in this reporting is that, yeah, some jobs were created but really not a lot. the fees are very, very small. and so what they've, i guess, risked by doing this is having potentially bad actors from overseas breaching the american financial system, and that is one of the findings of the
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pandora papers. >> so are we seeing people who have been sanctioned by the united states, perhaps they know that their money was ill-begotten and we perhaps have flagged them in some way, maybe because of work they've done with a foreign government or foreign entity, can they successfully hide their money right here in the united states of america in sioux falls, south dakota? >> i know. you would never expect sioux falls, south dakota. potentially. what we found in the pandora papers, which was, as you said, it was based on the leak of about 11.9 million financial records from 14 providers of offshore services, including a trust company with a location in south dakota. so while the leak was unprecedented in its size, it still doesn't tell us everything. it's just 14 providers. but what we found from this leak is the number of people from overseas who have been credibly accused in their own countries of crimes, including corruption
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and bribery or of other offenses like human rights abuses and labor exploitation and they and their family members moved their assets into sioux falls. there are a lot of established tax havens in the british isles and the bahamas. >> is it possible this is a violation of federal law? you get to the point where you can't pass a state law that undermines the federal government. there is a line there. is it possible south dakota's law has crossed that? >> you know, i can't answer that question. i wish i could. you know, it's not illegal to move money offshore unless you're doing it to avoid paying taxes, right, or to hide the proceeds of criminal activities. and so our documents showed us who had accounts in south dakota and in other places. in fact, we identified 29 or so
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thousand offshore accounts, or onshore accounts in this case. but the documents didn't tell us why they moved the money here or where the money came from. that's a question potentially for investigators. >> hold the position offshore when you're talking about south dakota. tremendous reporting by the post. thank you for coming on and sharing what you learned. thank you for being with us this hour. we'll be back tomorrow with more "meet the press daily." my friend jeff bennett takes over right now. it is great to be with you. i'm jeff bennett. first came the revelations. is today the start of the reckoning for facebook? something you don't see every day bipartisan frustration on capitol hill. as a former facebook data scientist stunned lawmakers with accusations and documentary proof of the comp a


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