tv Hallie Jackson Reports MSNBC October 6, 2021 12:00pm-1:00pm PDT
we gave new zzzquil pure zzzs restorative herbal sleep to people who were tired of being tired. i've never slept like this before. i've never woken up like this before. crafted with clinically studied plant-based ingredients that work naturally with your body. for restorative sleep like never before. as we come on the air this afternoon, breaking news on a potential, potential off-ramp to this debt ceiling showdown. nbc news confirming mitch mcconnell now offering chuck schumer maybe a path forward to extend the debt limit into december. we're waiting to see if democrats will take that offer. we're also waiting to see if a planned test vote on the debt ceiling will take place as planned for this hour. that's what you're looking at live on the left side of your screen. we're on the hill, we're at the white house, we're also following breaking news from arlington, texas, where police just announced they've arrested the suspect in a high school
shooting this morning. four people were hurt. we are new details. we'll take you live to the scene in a minute. i'm hallie jackson in washington along with our nbc news team ready to go as we watch what goes on, leigh ann caldwell at capitol hill, shannon pettypiece at the white house, guys, let me just take a pause here, because we don't want to assume that everybody knows everything about what the plan is moving forward and what the options are. so let's talk about what the options could be as it relates to this debt ceiling showdown. and there are new developments here. five possible outcomes, not all of them with happy endings. option 1, republicans blink and back off on their insistence that they will not join democrats to suspend the debt limit. this option just got kind of real with republicans sort of blinking with our new reporting in the last hour that senator
mitch mcconnell is offering up a short term deal, but it's more of a maneuvering. >> the senate republicans' position i find to be hypocritical, danger and you say a bit disgraceful. >> the second option, democrats do something they don't want to do and use the budget process known as reconciliation to raise the debt limit. that's the same procedure they're using with that social spending and climate bill on the table. democrats could do this on their own unilaterally but they don't want to because they say it's too time consuming, too risky, they have to revise the social spending bill, et cetera. option 3, democrats could change the rule and carve out an exception in the filibuster. in plain english, they could vote to tweak the usual procedure a little bit to raise the debt limit on their own. >> reporter: what's the likelihood of making a change in
the filibuster rule? >> very strong. >> but it would open a can of worms about why the debt limit and not, say, voting rights. and senator joe manchin threw cold water on that earlier this week. the u.s. mint could make a $1 trillion coin, which is pretty theoretical. the last and worst option, congress does nothing and the u.s. defaults on its debts. that could trigger a market meltdown, higher interest rates, job losses, with the nation's top business leaders warning about what could happen. >> anywhere from a recession to a complete catastrophe for the global economy. >> so that's where we are at the moment. leigh ann caldwell, what mitch mcconnell is offering to democrats is a little bit of option 1, a little bit of option 2, but really trying to put pressure on the opposite party
at this point. >> yeah, that's right, hallie. and we're getting some breaking news right now that this vote that was scheduled for any minute, this procedural vote to lift the debt limit, is likely to be postponed. two republican senators have told us that, senator shelby and senator kennedy. we're waiting to get some official word from leadership, especially democratic leadership who sets the agenda. now, if that vote is postponed, that does mean there could be some developments, that perhaps leader schumer and leader mcconnell are in fact talking. now, let's talk specifically about what leader mcconnell has offered to leader schumer. now, he gave two options. one is to lift the debt limit for another eight weeks, give democrats some more time to do the process through the reconciliation process, but then the republicans say that that vote-a-rama, that reconciliation process, won't be painful, they
won't entail a long, drawn-out series of many, many political votes. it would just probably be a few very difficult political votes to take. then the second option is that they would allow these key procedural votes to move forward so that republicans would not block or would not filibuster it. but the condition is that democrats would have to put a number on how much they want to lift the debt limit by. so now those are two different ways to get at the same thing, to lift the debt limit. but both have the same impact. if you do it through reconciliation or you do it the normal way that mcconnell is proposing, both ways, you have to put a number on it. and what that turns into are campaign ads, hallie. so this is still a very political process where republicans are trying to box democrats in and put a number on how much they want to raise the debt limit by which republicans
think is very damaging in the upcoming midterm elections. now, we'll see if schumer accepts this offer. i will say as far as the tactics are concerned, mcconnell is someone who does not share his secrets. and he told his republican conference behind closed doors what his plans were, what his offer was, before he even told schumer. of course that gets leaked to the press. and that is not usually how mcconnell operates if he is in serious negotiations. >> good point. >> so we will see if this is something that schumer accepts. i don't expect it. we're talking to rank and file democrats right now who say that this is not a serious offer. one senator, mazie hirono of hawaii, she called it bull "s," i won't use the second word here. >> i doubt she said bull "s," leigh ann, but we take your point. shannon, i want to know if
there's any reaction yet from the white house. you have senator durbin who told friend of this show jake sherman who works for punchbowl news, "we'll see," to mcconnell's offer, so to leigh ann's point, really noncommittal reactions from democrats here. >> as far as what the white house is looking for here, their last ask of republicans was to get out of the way, to let the senate vote on a bill to raise the debt ceiling, let democrats go alone. you don't have to get a bunch of republicans on board, just let it go through, don't filibuster it. so we don't breach the debt ceiling, so the government is still able to pay its bills in less than two weeks. that was their ask. as far as the tactics we have seen from the white house, they are not in any sort of negotiating stage. they are not trying to broker some sort of deal behind the scenes with mcconnell and schumer because they say they don't want the debt ceiling to
become a negotiating chip. they don't want it to become a political football every few years where we get into a cycle like this or we see a situation like 2011 where the obama administration gave some on domestic spending so they could get a debt ceiling through. so the white house is raising the alarm bells about this. they are not negotiating. but one thing they really are doing is trying to rachet up the pressure on republicans and let them know, if you stand in the way of the vote, if you don't let this through, we will come after you on a near daily basis from the white house, from the oval office, with ceos, like we saw today, with top officials out there on tv, and they have a plan to really rachet that up as these negotiations go from the weeks into days into hours stage of things. >> tony, what was your level of expectation that this 11th hour office was going to come through from senator mcconnell? what's his move here? >> right, i mean, the issue here
is that it buys time but it doesn't actually end the war, right? democrats have said all along they don't want to use the reconciliation process. and a lot of that stems from distrust. even though republicans have said they're willing to stand aside and allow things to move expediently, democrats simply don't believe them. by adding two months to the end of this, it does give democrats more time but it doesn't address the fact that they're being asked to use this process that they don't believe is appropriate going forward. another wrinkle we should probably add here, if democrats accept an offer like this, come december we're not just going to be talking about potentially the debt limit. we'll also be talking about government funding. because the recent short term spending resolution congress adopted funds operations into december. we could be looking at a situation in the next two months that looks a lot like what we saw a week or two ago when democrats and republicans were sniping at each other. we saw a lot of political
brinksmanship not just about the debt ceiling but also about government funding and the shutdown. >> we see on the left side of our screen the senate. just so i know, you said at the top of this a couple of republican senators have told you it looks like that is postponed? i just want to make sure i heard that properly. >> yeah, that's right. so they're voting on something different right now. they're voting on a nomination. so this vote does not have anything to do with the debt limit. we'll see what happens with the debt limit vote. >> do you think we'll know soon? >> i think so, we should know extremely soon. i'm looking at my phone right now to see if we've gotten official word. we haven't, but two senators say on the record that it's going to be postponed. but we're waiting to get that officially from leaderships' offices. >> we'll have a senator coming up in a couple of minutes. leigh ann caldwell, shannon pettypiece, tony rahm, thank you
very much. texas officials said a suspect in shooting in an arlington high school was taken into custody. four people are hurt, one person in critical condition. the suspect is 18 years old. new questions are coming out about the gun he used and the role of social media in this. brittany, we're so glad to have you, thank you. i know your afternoon has been extremely busy. you're outside the hospital one of the shooting victims was taken to. talk to me about the victims' conditions and what you're hearing from police on your end. >> yes, we just got an update from police, the biggest one they've given us, about the three victims who were taken here. we know there was a teenage girl. she was treated and released. we have two more that are still here, a 25-year-old man in good
condition. that 15-year-old you're talking about that everybody has been thinking about, praying for, is a 15-year-old student from timberview. we're told right now he just got out of surgery an hour or so ago and that he is still in critical condition. he is being cared for in the icu. we haven't seen any family right here in front of the trauma center. but we did see and hear from a couple of young men who came here. they say they're his friends and they are waiting until they can get an update on their friend's condition. so again, you've got two people from that incident that are still here, being treated at medical city, arlington. on the other side, about six miles away at the high school, we've got the families there. the families of the roughly 1, -- 1,700 students. we're told they're continuing with the evacuations, getting those students back to their families. >> i'm sure that can't come soon enough. tom, tell us about the suspect
and the weapon that was used. >> we have unconfirmed reports that a .45 caliber handgun was used. having listened to audio that is purportedly from one of the classrooms nearby where the shooting occurred, it does sound to me like a semi-automatic pistol that was being used in this with a caliber. that's something we would like to get more clarity on. certainly a .45 caliber bullet has the potential to do a significant amount of damage if you're struck by it. it's a large caliber weapon for a -- bullet, i should say, for a handgun. as far as the gun goes, there's at least two violations of law here by this suspect, identified by police as timothy george simpkins, as you said, 18 years old, that's the first problem. in september there was a law that removed carry permit restrictions on handguns. so if you're over the age of 21 in texas you're allowed to carry
a handgun on your person with certain restrictions without having to get a permit. obviously with this individual being 18 years of age, that's violation number one, that they were carrying a weapon. but the other violation, number two, whether he's 18, 28, or 88, you cannot carry a gun onto school property in the state of texas. so that's two violations. there's also some federal restrictions when it comes to guns on campuses as well, hallie. so there's at least two violations of state firearm law here on top of that. obviously police will presumably charge him with charges relating to the firing of that gun and the injuring of those people there. it would not necessarily be illegal for him to purchase the gun but certainly carrying it and bringing it on school grounds, that's a no-no. >> tom winter, brittany johnson, our thanks to the both of you for your reporting this afternoon as this breaking news continues to develop. we're also watching of course those developments on the senate floor, watching to see
what is up with this possible test vote that may or may not happen in the next few minutes. but first, what do democrats think of mitch mcconnell's offer? we're about to ask one democratic senator, chris van hollen, there he is, ready to go after the commercial break. police the january 6 committee's secret closed door interview with a top trump doj official. the reporter behind that scoop joins us, live. ♪ ♪ just two pills for all day pain relief. aleve it, and see what's possible. as a dj, i know all about customization. that's why i love liberty mutual. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪
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we are staying on top of that breaking news over in the senate, because as we've been reporting, the senate minority leader mitch mcconnell is now offering the majority leader chuck schumer perhaps a way out of this debt ceiling drama for now. it's an offer that could extend the debt ceiling limit until early december. why does that matter? it means that in a couple of weeks, when we hit the debt ceiling deadline, the u.s. economy won't go over the cliff. we're hearing that a test vote set for this hour was delayed. let me bring in senator chris van hollen, senator from
maryland. senator, good afternoon and thank you for being back on the show. >> great to be with you, hallie. >> perfect time to have you on because you would know, has the test vote been postponed? what have you heard from leadership? >> we've put it off for a little while, we're looking at the fine print of the mcconnell proposal and within the next 15 minutes we'll probably have a senate democratic caucus to take a look at it. hallie, to remind people what we're talking about, we're talking about paying the u.s. bills that are owing. senator mitch mcconnell has said they don't want to pay the bills that they've run up. they have said, let us do it on our own with 51 votes. he's blocked that. now he's saying, okay, i'll let you get 51 votes to lift the debt ceiling but only until early december and then i'm going to continue to threaten the u.s. economy, i'm going to threaten to stop social security payments, i'm going to threaten
to not pay our troops. and so the question back to him is, why only for a period of two months, right? why not allow some stability and certainty for the economy and american families? >> so i'm listening to you, senator, it sounds like you're not a "no" on this offer but you're not a "yes," you would like to continuing negotiating, is that a fair summation of your position? >> first, i do not know the details, i've just not seen the fine print on this, hallie. we've ruled out this idea of trying to use reconciliation to do this. but again, just to ask senator mcconnell, it would be great if he gave the public an answer. why does he want to put the american economy in continued jeopardy? just because you move a little bit back from the waterfall doesn't mean that you're not heading toward that waterfall and that crash. why do this on a month to month basis? and that's just pure politics,
because he wants to use that for some kind of leverage. he thinks it helps him with president biden in some way, to hurt the biden administration. all he's doing is hurting the country by continuing the uncertainty. >> it's interesting, senator bernie sanders called this a good start. do you think that's fair? >> well, if a good start means he's saying two months and so, hey, let's do it for at least another two years so that we can get out from under this threat of, you know, hurting the economy, which means throwing millions of people out of work, as independent analyses have shown, then it would be. but again, we obviously don't want to go over the waterfall. secretary yellen has said that that's happening on october 18th. but all he will be doing is creating another waterfall in early december when in fact all we're asking, hallie, is for him
to get out of the way and let the democrats vote to increase the debt ceiling to pay for things that republicans also voted for, things like expanding broadband, things like helping small businesses in the middle of a pandemic. they said they wanted to do those things. they go back home to their constituents and beat their chests and say we helped you in this way. but when it comes time to pay for it, they're awol. we will do it, but giving us another two months, is it better than going over the waterfall on october 18th? yeah, but it still keeps a cloud over the american economy. >> we've been watching some of what's been happening on the senate floor, and my colleague garrett haake reports that he's seen maybe a half dozen democrats kind of huddled around senator schumer at various points, you have to think talking through some of the ins and outs on this. i have to imagine you're on a group chat or two with your democratic colleagues. what are you hearing from them? you said there might be a caucus meeting in the next 15 minutes
to at least touch base. what is your sense of the consensus of your party on this? >> i was just up on the senate floor a few minutes ago, and that's why i know that we're going to be convening a senate democratic caucus shortly so we can discuss this with the full caucus. again, people want to understand the fine print. you know, right now democrats have been very clear that we will provide the 51 votes, the majority votes necessary to prevent the economy from crashing. we will take the action to help pay for bills that republicans ran up, including on their reckless tax giveaway a number of years ago. obviously it would be better for the country if we could do this on a more sustained basis, for a much longer period of time, which is typically what we do. what mcconnell is proposing is to bring the new debt ceiling
drop-off into the same place as the continuing resolution for a government shutdown. so what he wants to do is in early december, again, threaten a u.s. government shutdown and have that combined with another -- you know, another crisis over whether or not we're going to lift the debt ceiling. it really is no way to treat the country, to play this kind of politics with the debt ceiling. so we'll have to look at the fine print and decide, you know, whether we're looking at the least bad of two very bad options or whether we want to push now for a longer period. >> senator chris van hollen, fresh off the senate floor, senator, thank you for being back on the show. a lot of questions about where this goes next. what we do know is there will be a lot of developments in the next hour. thank you, senator. we should note that white house briefing we thought was going to happen in a couple of minutes
has been pushed back until 4:00 at at least. you have to imagine perhaps the white house is also trying to figure out the fine print on this mcconnell deal. coming up, we'll also go inside the january 6 committee's closed door secret interview with the justice department's second in command under former president trump. and we're going inside the terror trial happening now in paris with an exclusive interview you will only see here with the only american who survived the 2015 attacks, sharing her story with us. sionas in your hands or feet? try nervivenerve relief from the world's #1 selling nerve care company. nervive contains alpha lipoic acid to relieve occasional nerve aches, weakness and discomfort. try nervivenerve relief. [swords clashing] - had enough? - no... arthritis. here. new aspercreme arthritis. full prescription-strength? reduces inflammation? thank the gods. don't thank them too soon. kick pain in the aspercreme.
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this afternoon, a growing focus on one particular member of the last administration by lawmakers looking into what happened on january 6. politico reporting the select committee has interviewed richard donahue, the justice department's second in command. if you're not familiar with his name, it's probably a good time to learn it. why? politico laying out multiple committees that have been interested in talking to him or already have, that might be because he took notes on a call
between former president trump and the then acting attorney general, quote, in which the former president had pressured justice department officials to call the 2020 election corrupt and illegal even as they told trump claims of voter fraud were false. with me now is national correspondent for politico betsy woodruff swan, also an msnbc political contributor. betsy, good to have you on the show, thank you. one of the things you pointed out in your piece is this the one of the panel's first interviews. did they plan it that way, should we read into that? >> that's right, donahue has so far aimed to be cooperative with congressional investigators looking into what happened on january 6. that makes him a major outlier as far as former trump administration officials. but he also spoke to a senate committee about what happened and now of course we've learned he is the first known person to be interviewed by the january 6 select committee. he is really important because he had just as much visibility
as almost anyone into trump's efforts to overturn the election. he also knew the senior leadership of doj inside out. he was a very close ally of bill barr's. barr actually brought him from his first trump administration job as a u.s. attorney in brooklyn, barr brought him down to washington so that donahue could be more involved in the inner workings and long term strategizing of the justice department. when it comes to what happened at doj, there are people who know perhaps as much as donoghue but nobody who knows more. he is likely a treasure trove of information for the investigators. >> what else are you learning about the workings of the committee? >> we expect there to be more action over the next couple of weeks from this committee. they've done several scripted interviews over the last several days, that's something we've confirmed through reporting.
donoghue's name is the only one out there yet. the other thing we're keeping an eye on is what happens with the records the committee has been trying to get from inside the trump white house related to january 6. right now trump's own lawyers are reviewing those records to decide if they're going to try to use executive privilege or ask the biden administration to use executive privilege to keep those records secret. so the ball is currently in trump's lawyers' court. then it's going to be up to biden's team to decide whether or not to protect the trump administration's secrets or give those materials over to the january 6 select committee. and the biden administration has been surprisingly opaque about how exactly they're going to make those specific decisions on those records. >> that's an important point. betsy woodruff swan, thank you very much for being with us. turning now to a nbc news exclusive, an interview you'll only see here, with one of the only american survivors of the worst terror attack in the history of france, testifying just hours ago in that trial. helen wilson, originally from the u.s., was at a concert at
the bataclan theater in 2018 when gunmen opened fire. now her testimony is being used against the person french prosecutors say is the only surviving attacker from that night. nbc news foreign correspondent kelly cobiella has the exclusive interview. kelly, take us inside the conversation. >> reporter: obviously a very emotional day for helen wilson today, hallie, as well as the other witnesses who testified in court. look, this is the biggest criminal trial in french history. 20 defendants, among them the main defendant, the man police believe is the lone surviving attacker from that night. helen wilson went into that courtroom today and she told these terrifying details of what happened that night, of what she saw. the gunmen bursting into the theater, opening fire indiscriminately. she and her boyfriend nick alexander were both shot multiple times. she told the court she heard one
of the gunmen say "this is for our brothers in syria." she tried to revive her boyfriend, she tried to breathe for him, she felt him go cold inside that theater. she was in there for more than an hour as the rampage took place. and afterward, she talked to me about why it was so important for her to go into that courtroom and tell her story. take a listen. >> i just held him, because that's what i needed to do. that's what i still need to do. and he's still here and i'm still holding him. and i will hold him for eternity. he's my true love. i mean, how many people get that? >> reporter: and you needed other people to hear that? >> people need to know that despite all of that, that i can still make choices that don't harm other people. that's why they need to hear it. despite all the injustice in the
world and against me and against nick, that i can still make choices that aren't violent. >> reporter: and she told me shelter needed the defendants to hear that as well. the judge at one point telling one witness that, look, reminding them, these defendants are innocent until proven guilty. still, for a lot of these witnesses, helen included, it was important for them to sort of reach out and to say, look, you didn't win, we're not angry, we're not seeking revenge, but we do need to tell our stories and we need them to be heard by you and by the rest of the world. hallie, this is a very long trial. nine months long. the main defendant is expected to take the stand sometime next spring. it's not clear if we'll learn anything more. he hasn't spoken to investigators in the nearly six years since his arrest.
>> kelly cobiella with that incredible reporting, kelly, thank you so much. we'll look for more of that coming up on "nbc nightly news." coming up here on this show, a fascinating and potentially critical case in front of the supreme court today on u.s. government secrets and the cia's not so secret torture program after 9/11. ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ ♪upbeat music♪
♪oh no, babe girl, if i could only make you see♪ ♪and make you understand♪ get a dozen double crunch shrimp for $1 with any steak entrée. only at applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. if everyone knows about a secret, then it's not a secret, right? not according to the department of justice, arguing to the supreme court today that some of the details around the treatment of a suspected al qaeda operative should stay classified. that's even though details of that detainee's interrogation and torture at the cia's so-called black sites have already been revealed in a senate report which concluded intelligence officials, quote, applied its enhanced interrogation techniques with significant repetition for days or weeks at a time. nbc justice correspondent pete
williams is following this case and these arguments. pete, how did the justices respond to what they heard and what are the bigger implications here? >> the essence of this is not what was done to him but where it was done. the senate report never said where the black sites were, although it seems to be a pretty open secret that one of them was in poland. and that's what abu zubaydah's lawyers want to find out. the government says even though other people are talking about it, the fact is that the government has made a commitment to its allies that it would never reveal the places where these black sites were, and they said to do so now would violate u.s. national security. so they don't want abu zubaydah to be able to question two former cia contractors who helped design and carry out the torture program. that's the essence of it. and today, the supreme court struggled with whether that could be done, whether the case should be sent back to the lower courts to sort of sort through this and decide what they could
say and what they couldn't. but the surprising turn in this, hallie, was that three supreme court justices, stephen breyer, neil gorsuch, and sonia so so toe sonia sotomayor, will the government make him available. justice sotomayor said we want a clear answer. bryan fletcher, the acting attorney general, said that's not my decision to make. abu zubaydah has been under defense department control and his lawyers say in essence he's being held incommunicado. >> pete, talk about some of the bigger picture pieces of this depending on which way this goes. >> the case is about the state secrets privilege. the government's position here is, if the cia director says, as has been done here, that
revealing something would harm national security, that basically should be the end of the matter. not quite that extreme, but that's just about what the government's position is. the lawyers on the other side say, no, judges ought to be able to make these decisions, they ought to weigh, what's the government's interest in keeping something secret, what's the need for it on the other hand by the person who is trying to keep it. the fact is the state secrets privilege has very little been discussed by the supreme court. so this case could be an important one for deciding how it's going to be used going forward. >> pete williams in our washington newsroom covering that case. pete, thank you, appreciate that. >> you bet. coming up, where facebook's troubles may go next. forget congress for now. what the sec is now doing with the whistle-blower's claims. we're talking about that after the break. we're talking about that after the break. a same-day repair. and with their insurance, it was no cost to them. >> woman: really? >> tech: that's service the way you need it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪
more now on the facebook saga that's been playing out over the last 72 hours with lawmakerers today now pushing back against mark zuckerberg's latest defense and a new reminder that might be a warning from the sec in the middle of calls for an investigation by that commission and by the ftc. on our earlier right here, senator richard blumenthal poking holes in mark
zuckerberg's very lengthy, detailed response to the facebook whistle-blower's testimony yesterday. watch. >> he has thrown these vague terms, saying they're already transparent. false. that they want regulation. well, in the abstract, maybe, but facebook spends millions of dollars to hire armies of lobbyists, to put ads in these papers opposing real regulation. >> no new response from facebook to those comments. but zuckerberg writing overnight in part, quote, it's difficult to see coverage that misrepresents our work and our motives. his statement goes on to say at the heart of these accusations is this idea that we prioritize profit over safety and well being, that's just not true. with me, jake ward. jake, a couple of things here. some new questions coming out now about what did facebook do,
did they perhaps do something that they shouldn't have as it relates to the law, right? any sign of any investigation? what are the facts here, what do you know? >> well, the complaints that are in front of the sec now certainly allege wrongdoing. and i think what's important to remember is that as, you know, extraordinary as the spectacle was with frances haugen yesterday, very little of what was discussed, very little of what gave so many people this visceral reaction was actually illegal. it's really only what's in front of the securities and exchange commission that forms a legal basis for actual wrongdoing here. now, we did hear from sec chair gary gentzler earlier on nbc when he spoke with stephanie ruhle. have a listen to what he had to say. >> if executives of companies that are public companies mislead the public, they mislead the public in their financials or they mislead the public in a material way in terms of their products, that can be a violation of securities laws.
>> now, part of what is so important there is not only does that constitute the basis for an actual legal complaint, but also, this is important to note, frances haugen is in fact eligible for a percentage of whatever sanctions are levied if the sec actually gets money out of facebook. it could be anywhere from 10 to 30%. you're talking about somebody here who has literally thrown away her career in order to bring these documents to light. well, the sec has always figured it needs to incentivize the best-paid people, the people who would know something sensitive about wrongdoing in order to get them to come forward. that seems to be the case here. >> what kinds of protections does she have, jake, where does her story go next? >> well, certainly because she laid it at the feet of the sec, she gets whistle-blower protections that otherwise she might not. federal whistle-blower protections from the sec are some of the strongest kinds. we're lucky to live in a country that has extraordinary whistle-blower protections.
but the legal term "whistle-blower" really only applies when it comes to a patchwork of state laws, a few federal laws including the ones that govern the sec there, a couple of other places. in tech especially, it has been very, very hard to actually take advantage of those take advantage of those laws when it comes to things like non-disclosure fwreemts and all that stuff. the fact that she went to the s.e.c. is an extremely shrewd move. >> senator blumenthal mentioned something congress needs to do, which is require disclosure. why don't they do that? >> i think that senators are struggling to answer that very question. >> yeah. >> i think some of the things that were raised yesterday seem common sense. why hasn't congress legislated that facebook, google and other tech companies share with at least a group of academics. we have one stanford university
professor who said yesterday we need legislation that would introduce that, demand that these tech companies share this kind of research, the research we only have now that they have decided to go public and this is the kinds of data that only social media companies have held until now. >> there was something in mark zuckerberg's statement. i was pointing out this this morning. he talked about the research that facebook does. remember, frances haugen left the company with tens of thousands of internal documents, internal research, et cetera. zuckerberg in his letter to staff that he then posted on line said we are going to still keep doing the research but worried about the incentive structure. if we attack organizations making an effort to study their impact on the world we are effectively sending the message that it is safer not to look at all in case you find something that could be held against you.
what do you think of that? >> i thought it was telling of his state of mind. he sees this as an attack. he sees this as her aiming her bowo at the heart of the company instead of saying maybe we should have made this research public from the start, maybe when we knew instagram had a harmful impact on teenage girms we should have gotten in touch with psychologists, altered our products so they don't have this kind of harmful effect. he reads this information as a important who is the head of a company and not a person thinking about the good of society and good of democracy. >> what could congress do right now? the remarkable thing that we have seen from frances haugen's testimony was lawmakers on the left and on the right were like, hey, she's got a point. if they manage to come together and do something, what's the first thing they should do, what's the biggest thing that
would make a difference that would be tangible to people who use facebook. >> transparency really is the thing. right now, the major tech companies of the world are employing some of the top minds in academia when it comes to political science, behavioral science, all of that stuff. the we want their expertise actually working on the behalf of human understanding, we need independent academics. academics who do not work for youtube, facebook, do not work for any of these companies examining the data that facebook and those companies have on us. those companies contain incredible amounts of data. and the sub sigs has been that somehow that data is private simply because only facebook employees can look at it. let's show it to academics, see what they think about the effects. >> thank you both for the conversation. we want to turn back now to the developing news from the senate floor. the procedural vote, the test
vote that democrats were putting on to maybe left the debt ceiling has been delayed as senator van hollen told us 40 minutes ago you have senate democrats meeting behind closed doors to go over the offer from the republican senator mitch mcconnell that could maybe mean an end to the standoff. i want to bring in nbc's leann caldwell. what political position is mitch mcconnell in? a lot of people look at him -- especially on the right he is always negotiating for a position of strength. in this case it sounds like the democratic discussion about the filibuster and going nuclear for this carve out for the debt seal could have spooked mcconnell? >> it could have. just the recap. we were approaching a serious deadline and grinkmanship up here on capitol hill over the debt limit. we are just over a week away before the country could default. as you mentioned, they have
postponed the procedural test vote that needs the support of 60 senators which was expected to fail. the reason, because republicans were not expected to offer their support something that leader mcconnell has been saying over and over again. now, there have been discussions among the democratic caucus for a couple weeks, auto i'm told, about a filibuster carveout, but things really came to a head yesterday with an entire democratic caucus discussed it behind closed doors during their weekly lunch meeting. and there was so much anger, i'm told, toward leader mcconnell for, one, putting them in this position and being willing to put the country on the brink in order for him to make a political point. and that frustration among democrats has really culminated in this discussion of the filibuster that even though there has been a lot of discussion about the filibuster and getting rid of it, that this was the closest they had come.
what it did is it got mcconnell to make an alternate move or a maneuver as we are calling it, perhaps an offer. we don't know yet how serious of an offer it is. it's going to be up to democratic and leader schumer to determine if they are going to accept this offer, if they are going to give a counter-offer. but something that is really clear here is in mcconnell's two offers, proposals, that he gave to schumer, both of them have the same outcome. the two outcomes would be that the debt limit would be lifted. the other is it would force democrats to put a number on how much the debt limit has to be lifted. ultimately that was mcconnell's goal the entire time throughout this process. and we are waiting to see what schumer and democrats do with this. >> i hope you are ordering dinner. leann caldwell thank you for being with us. kpeem us updated. appreciate it. thanks to you all for watching this hour of hallie jackson
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hi there, everyone. it's health care in new york. we have often asked on this program if there remains a trip wire for today's gop. and time and time again we have learned with tragic consequences there is not. so today we ask the question, will we soon add blowing up the u.s. economy to the depths that republicans may be willing to go for pure political gain? the breaking news in just the last hour -- democrats in the senate signaling that a procedural vote on the debt limit has been postponed. this is a measure republicans are expected to block amid their efforts to avoid a move to avoid is