state delegates with ropes around them. matt gaetz has endorsed tucker carlson's white replacement theory and a candidate for lieutenant governor in georgia say people must assimilate. who is our? so if we're not even trying to hide it anymore, the openly racist elements of the republican parties are tonight's absolute worst. all in with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in," america was closer to a successful trump coup than we ever knew. >> i don't think i'm overstating the case. we were a half step away from a full blown constitutional crisis. >> tonight the damning report on trump's push to subvert democracy. the republicans who were aiding and abetting and the entire republican party who is fully and completely on board with the next coup. >> who won the ee lks in arizona, donald trump? >> we don't know. >> then the fallout in texas

where women's full constitutional rights have been restored, but for how long? plus, potentially game changing news on vaccines for kids and what we know about mitch mcconnell's big debt limit cave on taking america over a financial cliff when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris haze. the senate as i speak to you is voting whether to move forward on raising the debt limit. mitch mcconnell needs 10 to deliver. we're waiting to see if he can make good after several members of his own caucus publicly criticized him. so far only 9 republicans voted to move forward. one short. we expect them to get to 10.

we turn to another cat a climp barely missed on january 6th. now there's not a single thing we've learned about the former president's attempted coup that has made it seem less dangerous, more benign. in fact, just the opposite. every single time we've learned some new revelation about what donald trump and his henchmen were up to, we get a fuller picture of what we all lived through, a democratic near death experience. swerving the car on the road in just the last second in which the sitting leader attempted to use the force of the state to retain power against the will of the people. he had a lot of willing collaborators, just not quite enough. the senate judiciary committee released a bombshell report based on documents they obtained and in depth interviews. this report sheds new light on how extensive this effort was.

it's tight 8d, subverting justice. how the former president and his allies subverted justice to overturn the 2020 election. let me start off by reminding you who those key members are. we have jeffrey rosen. he ran the doj after bill barr left in december of last year with the statement of how great donald trump was. rosen's deputy, number two, is that guy, a man named richard donoughe. previously served as u.s. attorney for the eastern district of new york. then there's a third character. his name is jeffrey clark. a lesser known official in the department and he went full insurrectionist and plotted with trump to use the department of justice to full meant trump's coup even if that meant getting rid of his boss, jeffrey rosen. senate report provides new context and new revelations.

it details a meeting on january 3rd in the oval office, in this meeting you've got rosen, right, the guy trying to get justice, deputy and clark was there and pat sipilone and his deputy. trump opened the meeting and i want to read this to you by saying, one thing we know is you, rosen, aren't going to do anything to overturn the election. over the course of the next three hours the group had a wide ranging discussion on whether he should replace leadership, send clark's proposed letter that he wanted to send to georgia officials, as well as other states, faultsly claiming the doj was aware of election fraud and inviting the states to reject the electors for biden. this came after clark revealed to the acting attorney general and his deputy we have spoken to

a witness who testified and claimed he had seen trucks moving ballots to a location where they would be shredded. keep in mind, this is like total utter mad house nuttery from the darkest depths of the internet, okay? this is like 9/11 was an inside job level stuff that jeffrey clark is interviewing witnesses about. now there was a lot of push back. white house council pat sippilone called clark's letter a murder/suicide pact. they said they would resign if trump replaced clark with the lackey. everyone sitting in the room, you have trump and his coup lackey clark who are like, let's do the coup and all the other lawyers are like, we will all resign if you do the coup. according to donoughe, he did not reject it until the final 15

minutes of the two to three hour meeting. that sounds exhausting and incredibly tedious but i guess it worked out kind of in the end? that was just one of nine calls and meetings. listen to report, okay? this wasn't like a one off. this wasn't casual stuff. nine calls and meetings trump held with the acting attorney general rosen and his deputy donoughe pressuring, pressuring, pressuring them to overturn the results. he told them overturn the election. that's the phrase he used. in fact, the photo that you see there included in the report is from another oval office meeting with doj leadership on the 31st. pressure was coming from the chief of staff, in our coup lackey. another person who collaborated to murder american democracy, mark meadows, who asked attorney general rosen to say there was election fraud.

meadows also asked the doj to meet with the president's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani, about conspiracy theories including one called italygate. this is one of my favorites. take time to google it and other election fraud claims. we don't have time for italygate, but it's a good one. in addition, the committee confirmed former president trump forced the resignation of b.j. pact who was not doing enough to, again, investigate false claims of election in georgia. scott perry of pennsylvania who led the objection to counting pennsylvania's electoral votes on the house floor in the hours immediately following the january 6th election. that was the violent insurrection and scott perry came in and said, we should do what the mob wants. perry has acknowledged introducing jeffrey clark to trump and documents and testimony confirm he directly

communicated with deputy attorney general donoughe about his false pennsylvania election fraud claims. that guy, scott perry, sitting member of u.s. congress aiding the president in his seditious plot. you have perry, trump, the coup lackeys. all of this created the disinformation ecosystem necessary for trump to incite almost 1,000 americans to breach the capitol in a violent attempt to subvert democracy by stopping a free and fair election. we have news into that day. the house committee investigating january 6th has issued subpoenas to the organizers of the stop the steal rally which preceded the riot at the capitol. that's in addition to subpoenas they already issued with 11 individuals for planning the pro trump rallies before the attack. again, a lot more detail about what we knew was happening, which was donald trump really,

really, really, really, really, really, really wanted a coup and enough people wanted to help him but not enough. even more disturbing and how close we came to catastrophe on january 6th is the fact that the republican party has more or less become a coup supporting party. we all know donald trump obviously does not believe in democracy and if given the opportunity he will, like i said, murder american democracy. we also know that after a brief paying of conscience, just a little one, in the wake of rioters storming the capitol and with the echos of hang mike pence ringing in their ears, they have all fallen back in line with the president. a few exceptions. but basically everyone including even the most establishment figures in the party, like seven term senator chuck grassley, republican older states man. today senator grassley put out the minority staff report attempting to rebut the findings of the judiciary's committee report.

it amounts to, well, he didn't pull it off. then this weekend chuck grassley is going to be joining donald trump at a rally in his home state. again, sharing the stage with a man who tried to stab american democracy in the heart who just yesterday said, quote, the real insurrection happened on november 3rd, the day of free and fair elections. the presidential election, not on january 6th. it's not just chuck grassley. senator lindsey graham of south carolina who briefly jumped off the trump train in the wake of the insurrection is right back on it. he says if trump runs again in 2024. you have nikki haley who obviously harbors presidential aspirations. she said trump went down a path he shouldn't have and we shouldn't have followed him. we can't let that ever happen again. in a new interview this week she has changed her tune. quote, we need him in the republican party. i don't want us to go back to the days before trump. they're all doing this because,

as jonathan points out in new york magazine, there is no middle space anymore. all republican politics is now functionally authoritarian. the project of restoring american democracy and returning power to this man who would kill it in a heartbeat. that's the consensus view of the republican view that he should be the leader. he tried to destroy 240 years of democratic traditions and will do it again the next chance he gets and they will help him do it. senator klobuchar serves on the senate judiciary committee. she joins me now. senator klobuchar, moments ago it looks like enough republicans moved forward to vote on the debt ceiling. let's just start with that. is that correct? >> that's correct. i literally, chris, am a few yards away from the senate floor because we have a series of votes tonight. with senator blunt's vote and senator rounds vote, 11

republicans. i will note only 11 republicans voted with every single democrat, all 50 democrats to make sure that we stand by our country's obligation. otherwise our credit rating would have plummeted. we would have basically hurt regular people with interest rates rising and unemployment going up. it's unbelievable that they brought us to this brink, but in the end they caved and senator mcconnell after saying he wouldn't do it agreed that through december, and that's what we have now, through december to work this out most importantly for us this is a time period where we can get the build back better bills done. we're not going to go into that tonight but you know there's a lot of work to do. we're excited about that possibility and i'm just so glad that the democrats pushed this and we were able to do this without going through some crazy procedural mess and put the country's credit rating at risk.

>> we'll see where we are in a month. i will say you're right. mcconnell did cave. he really screwed his caucus on this. i've got to say, i'm rarely sympathetic to the ted cruz of the world. we're united, we're united. we'll provide the 10 votes. you can see it in the fact they got 11, they don't seem very happy with him. >> they seem in a bit of a disgruntled mood about it you about such is life. let's talk about this report. else' pretty shocking, the stuff in there. the new detail. the level of pressure that was being brought to bear on these officials and it was real serious, suggestion stained pressure. what is your big take away from what you've learned in the course of this investigation and the final report? >> well, my first is actually what you said in your opening, which really went into the weeds

which people need to do on this. you said nothing about this makes us better, right? what we knew before this only makes it worse and more troubling. i think the first thing is just the repeated pressure. we knew about the lawsuits, hundreds of lawsuits all over the country. false claims thrown out by courts. we knew that he tried to get the local officials fired. look what happened in georgia. what this report shows is the repeated pressure on the department of justice. nine different meetings. i think one of the scariest things to me was that, no, i'm reading here from the report where there's a handwritten note of a phone call during which president trump tells department of justice leadership, just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me. and you see with barr's departure more and more pressure on acting attorney general rosen who actually was a witness. i attended this part of the questioning when acting attorney

general -- then acting attorney general, now private citizen rosen was asked questions, and that was pretty damning. i think you see this in the report as well as what we've learned about georgia where the u.s. attorney was fired for not violating the law basically. that u.s. attorney said, no, i'm not going to do what you want. >> i want to ask about your colleague, chuck grassley. you've known chuck grassley a long time. i've covered chuck grassley a long time. i would call chuck grassley a capital n, capital r normal republican. cares about farm policy. he's been there for a long time. he issues this minority report that is the kind of thing you would see on a segment of oan, fox news. it attempts to defend the president by saying he never actually pulled off the coup. he's going to be at a rally with him this week end. what does it say about chuck grassley who is aligning himself with a man who did this? >> i think we've seen very few

exceptions where republicans have been willing to stand up to this. one of them is liz cheney in the house. i'm not sure how you've focused on this. that house investigation which is bipartisan over in the house where they're really digging deep, issuing subpoenas, something that we are unable to do unless we have bipartisan support in the senate judiciary committee, they are doing that and moving forward is going to be really helpful. and our report here, which as you know, it uncovered a bunch of new stuff, i think will be helpful to them in that evident as well. >> final question for you is about accountability for jeffrey clark. i want to note there's a letter from the chair, dick durbin in your committee, asking the dc bar to look at clark's appliance with applicable rules of misconduct. why is that important? >> well, you have got a lawyer that was basically not -- in my

mind when i look at this report sitting in on a lot of the questioning, when i look at this i think, wow, this is a lawyer that wasn't following the law. he was -- he took an oath in his job. your oath is to protect and defend the constitution of the united states. it's not to be the president's lawyer when you're at the justice department. so when i look at what he did and the pressure and what he tried to do, i understand why senator durbin believes we need to call this to the attention of the people that decide legal ethics in the jurisdiction in which he practices. >> senator amy klobuchar who paid me the complement into i got into the weeds. >> chris hayes. >> i'm going to take as a compliment. >> i meant it all positive. >> i know you did. >> it was so good. >> i know you did. >> thank you very much. >> all right. today, october 7th, 2021, nearly a full year after the election the house oversight committee

held a hearing on the sham audit in arizona. that's the one that dragged out for ages until they finally announced, yes, joe biden won. unfortunately we didn't get to hear from the cyber ninja ceo since he skipped the audit. the big lie is alive and well because the republican party, there's no truth beyond it, only trump. that's next. do you accept this audit which showed that joe biden won and indeed by more votes than -- >> that is not what the audit concluded, mr. raskin. you know better than that. ♪girl, i don't know, i don't know,♪ ♪i don't know why i can't get♪ applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood.

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congressman andy digs is a republican through and through. he's firmly entrenched in the pro insurrection caucus. in congress's hybrid hearing on the sham on arizona did not cause a surprise but still worth listening to. listen to congressman biggs response when congressman raskin asked him who won arizona. >> who won the election, mr. biggs? i'm happy to yield to you. who won the election, donald trump? >> we don't know. as the audit demonstrates very clearly, mr. raskin, there are a lot of issues with this elects that took place. we're going to go through those today but you can continue -- speaking of the big lie, you can continue to perpetuate it as long as you want. we're going to find out.

>> madam chair, there is the problem that we have. donald trump refused to accept the results and unfortunately we have one of the world's great political parties which has followed him off of the ledge of this electoral lunacy and it's dangerous for democracy so i'm glad we're having this hearing today. >> congressman raskin not wrong at all. it's not just a fringe maga guy is in the house. it's the entire party. not that the entire party will say we don't know who won the election. most of the people will say joe biden won, 50-50, something like that. earlier in the show even some of the establishment figures like senator chuck grassley are basically on board with this slide into authoritarianism. it's basically impossible to be a republican in 2021 without tacitly supporting donald trump's attempts to subvert free and fair elections for this reason, right? the republican party is

presumptively a vehicle for trump's authoritarian ambitions. therefore, anything advancing the republican party is a vehicle for trump's attack on the constitution. jennifer reuben is a column nist at the washington post. her new book is titled resistance, how women saved democracy from donald trump. jennifer, let me start with you. ross is not at all a trump fan. conservative columnist in "the new york times." it goes as follows. you liberals want republicans to abandon their other principals and enjoy you in a popular front to save american democracy. that's not a fair ask because donald trump isn't that much of a threat and republicans are republicans and they have things they really care about. stop trying to sort of morally black mail republicans who stay

with the party because it's not -- the threat to democracy is not that great. i'm curious your response to that. >> i don't know whether this is just ridiculous whistling past the graveyard of democracy or whether this is arguing so he can continue to support the party he's always supportsuppor. i don't think you can look at the evidence that's being uncovered, the judiciary report and not see that there was a grave threat to democracy. i don't know how you look at the wave of voter suppression and voter subversion legislation around the country. i think it's extremely dangerous for people who know better for people like ross, for people in the senate who do know better to kind of go along with this. this is what allows a totalitarian demagogue to seize power to control truth and so pretty soon if you don't believe him, at least you don't know what to believe.

that's straight from a demagogue and a dictator's rule book. this is how we get into deep, deep trouble. >> cynthia, as someone who is steeped in research on polarization, how do you diagnose this fact? you have trump's control of the party, you've got a wing of people who are ferociously on his side. there's a relatively small number of people saying the election was stolen and then you have a much broader swath who are kind of willing to play footsie. what does that add up to about what the party needs in america's two-party system right now? >> well, i think if we were seeing these conditions exist anywhere else in the world, the u.s. and our allies would be sending, you know, electoral monitors, would be sending election support for a fragile democracy essentially. i think when we live for so long in a country that likes to think

of itself as a beak con of democracy, it can be really difficult to recognize how dangerous the conditions have become. i do think what we're facing is a gas lighting situation where we have millions of people who genuinely believe that there was an illegitimate election and they're believing wide swathes of information that are being sent their way as people they're supposed to trust. if this were happening anywhere else, we'd be the ones sending aid to help that democratic process. >> it's funny, jennifer. trump's line is too vulgar and preposterous for close allies to embrace. you get gradations of nuance how people flirt with it. here's gosar. he's quite maga aligned and he has not struck me as the like most sophisticated thinker in the united states congress.

here he is talking about the audit today. >> the results we see here supposedly don't change the outcome, but there's more to the story as to how those votes can be manipulated by the machine and then the calibration or certification of the ballots is covered up by the machine. >> i leave it to viewers whether they find that persuasive, but i will say that you're seeing retreat to this kind of like unspecified questions or glen youngkin saying we ought to audit the machines. it's not coming out saying donald trump won the election and yet still giving credence to the people that want to hear that donald trump won the election. >> right. and just to be clear, that notion that the machines did it and then they hid it from the rest of us is complete nonsense.

>> yes. >> so, yeah, it is. and you're exactly right. oh, i didn't see the tweet club, i didn't hear the latest. there are people who say, who's to know? how do you know anything? those are the moral and intellectual neilists. those are the people who say, well, you know, how do we know there weren't a lot of illegal immigrants voting. remember, 3 to 5 million of them supposedly voted. so when you are in a cult-like setting, there is no fact that you cannot absorb. there's no bad information -- >> right. >> -- that you can't somehow bend to reaffirm your cult. that's how these things operate. it's very, very dangerous because someone who hasn't spent much time listening to the facts

show biden won by more votes than we thought and there was no evidence of widespread irregularities. those people will not believe this. the entire process is designed to make us believe elections are unreliable, that they are not final. that's like the first round. that's the first suggestion in an election. it really comes out when you get into voter subversion. >> right. >> when you get into violence. they are trying to delegitimize elections. >> quickly and finally to you, cynthia. is there any way to interpret chuck grassley showing up at a trump event this week as anything other than an essentially what trump tried to do? >> i think what you're seeing is erasing of a path and trying to move forward in ways that

pretend things didn't happen. i don't see how we can continue to see that kind of situation without interpreting it as some tacit support. yes, that's the situation we're in. cynthia and jennifer, thank you both very much. ahead, a victory for reproductive rights in texas as a federal judge suspends the state's unconstitutional ban on abortion but how long will that last? that's next. (man 1) we're like yodeling high. [yodeling] yo-de-le-he... (man 2) hey, no. uh-uh, don't do that. (man 1) we should go even higher! (man 2) yeah, let's do it. (both) woah! (man 2) i'm good. (man 1) me, too. (man 2) mm-hm. (vo) adventure has a new look. (man 1) let's go lower. (man 2) lower, that sounds good. (vo) discover more in the all-new subaru outback wilderness. love. it's what makes subaru, subaru. mission control, we are go for launch.

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almost exactly five weeks ago a ban on all abortion went into effect in texas. a narrow majority of five conservative supreme court justices, including all three trump justices, said there was nothing they could do. they issued a 5-4 ruling in the dead of night arguing they could not block the law because the

law pioneered an entirely novel structure in which the curtailment of the constitutional right to abortion was left entirely in the hands of private citizens to enforce and ergo there was no one for the court to enjoy. whoopsy. but then the biden administration stepped in and they sued the state of texas which is something they can do but private parties cannot. the department of justice said the state resorted to vigilante justice. so far it's working. last night a federal judge blocked the texas abortion ban for now. they've sided with the department of justice in a strongly worded 113 page ruling. writing, quote, from the moment the law went into effect women have been unlawfully prevented from exercising control over their lives in ways that were protected by the constitution. this court will not sanction one more day of this offensive

deprivation of such important right. nancy northup is with the group fighting this. nancy, i have not read the entire 113 pages of the decision but i've read a big chunk of it. again, i'm not a lawyer and not a judge. yes. obviously yes. yes. they tried to get away with it. basically the decision is like, we see what you're doing. >> it is a beautiful decision by judge pittman. he makes very clear in those 100 plus pages that it is a blatantly unconstitutional law and a scheme and it's very carefully reasoned. he goes through every argument that the state of texas makes an rejects it and is a very, very

wonderful victory after these five weeks to get such a thought full, well-reasoned and i felt like hooray, the rule of law lives. >> this machine that they set up worked for five weeks with the consent of five justices on the supreme court. this ruling was issued last night and this is from an independent abortion rights group. we are providing abortions in accordance with judge pittman's ruling out of compassion for our patients. this ban hurts texans and now we can help them. is your understanding that the abortion providers that had not been providing abortion after six weeks are now doing so in this state? >> yes. as you talked about, the president and ceo talked to the president about the fact that their doors are open and they have seen patients past six weeks. it's not an easy fete.

texas has a 24 hour waiting requirement. they had to have consent of these patients earlier. they were on a waiting list just in case this happened. >> wow. >> steve vladic is a professor down in texas and writing about this and may be involved in some of the litigation. he made a point that was very important. we know the law was deviously written. there's another provision that is relevant. in the interim it is not clear whether providers will resume offering services. it appears they have. one of the many novel provisions in sb 8 provides that abortions performed while a preliminary injunction is in effect can still be a basis for liability if the injunction is later stayed/reversed. >> it's not. it's seeking to achieve

unconstitutional ends. he's right, that is what the law says. he says if there's an injunction and you go ahead and perform abortions after six weeks, which are guaranteed by the constitution and then that gets reversed, then you can be sued by countless people. the very dedicated people is exposing them to potential reversal and then these lawsuits could follow. so it's really -- i mean, the chaos that this really devious law has put into effect in texas is just unconscionable. >> there's something that i've only understood recently and partly because of what melissa wrote which is that all of this structure to get around an injunction is all about basically shutting down the abortion providers as long as you can, to put them out of business. the whole reason to front load the nonsense and put this thing

into liability, even if it's reversed, the whole game of the law is get courts to ascent to shutting it down so that these providers all just die off. is that the correct way of understanding this? >> i think it is. unfortunately that's what happens more than six years ago in the whole women's health that went to the supreme court. there was a provision that they determined to be unconstitutional in 2016, but it was too late. it had shut down almost half the clinics in the state of texas. you can't just pop up six months later, you don't have a facility, you don't have your staff. it is the pernicious effects of this law, it can have an effect on people in the state of texas but if they can drag this out long enough, that some of these clinics can't stay open. >> final question for you. this is a narrow procedural

point that we don't have to get into but the department of justice being the party here, seemed to have solved some of the procedural issues in the earlier case. >> i am confident about that. i am confident that the original lawsuit that so many coalition members filed which is sitting at the supreme court asking for cert should also prevail. >> yeah. >> it is a good thing we have multiple lawsuits going against this very, very unconstitutional and unfair law. >> nancy northup, thank you very much. coming up, why the head of one of new york city's largest police unions had his home raided and he was stripped from his badge and gun. please, please, please, what you need to know just ahead.

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while we were on air tuesday night the news broke that ed mullins had resigned after his home and office were raided by the fbi. since then things have not gotten any better for the now former president of the sergeants benevolent association. new york post reported today, quote, high ranking new york law enforcement officials reported the miss appropriation of union funds and mail and wire fraud. they said the funds are good and said it would not be providing mullins with legal representation which is pretty extraordinary concerning ed mullins was the face of that union for nearly 20 years. stuck it out. stayed in the job through countless controversies, like the kwau a nonmug and the time he quoted the arrest record of

mayor de blasio and the time he called the health commissioner a bitch with blood on her hands and called richie torres a first lass hoar. he tweeted those. the time he said cops should be allowed to sue the people they shot for emotional damage. a personal message, and i quote, pay close attention to every word. you will hear what goes through the mind of real policemen every single day on the job. what was in the video? the narrator calls the absolute truth, says things like, quote, the projects will always be dense of crime and violence. cops will continue to wade into that fray and blacks will continue to attack and ambush us forever. mullins claimed he hadn't seen the whole video.

quote, i have black friends, white friends, asian friends. i wouldn't want to assault anyone. i don't think one incident is who i am. >> it wasn't just that one incident. and mullins has been stripped of his gun and badge and put on modified duty. he's still a sargeant in the nypd. doesn't have his gun but had been for the last 20 years dep advertised by the city, killed if necessary. how can you ask people to trust a system like ed mullins so much power? hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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in a move that could provide inoculation to nearly 30 million additional americans, pfizer asked the fda to authorize emergency use of its covid vaccine in children between the ages of 5 and 11. if approved, the vaccine would

be the first authorized vaccine for kids under 12. an fda advisory committee will meet later this month with a decision expected in november. pfizer says they provide a robust immune response in kids according to clinical trials. dr. besser is a pediatrician. he joins me now. this was not exactly unexpected. i know we know the clinical trial has been happening. i have friends who got their kids into the clinical trials. what is your reaction to this in terms of the timing? does this seem what you expected? >> yeah. chris, i have to say, i'm excited and i'm working to temper that excitement. it's so important that fda has the room to do their independent evaluation of the data from pfizer. then that their advisory committee has the ability to look at that and see whether they feel this should be authorized. after that, it goes to cdc. cdc, their advisory committee

would make a recommendation as to whether they would recommend it for all children, a subset of children or what. those are all critically important pieces in terms of ensuring that any vaccine that goes into a child is safe and effective. that will be key in terms of parents trusting that this is something their children should get. >> it's interesting. when we talk about this terrain, there's a wide spectrum of views. we talked about the vaccination. we look at vaccination rates for folks over 75, it's high. for the country, it's 75% of adults have gotten one shot i think at this point. i think there's a little more -- i have heard different things on kids. there are people who are like, i want to be the first parent getting the shot, day one. then there's -- if you look at polling, 34% said right away. 32%, wait a see. 8% only if required.

24%, definitely not. wait and see, people have worries about their kids. it's new. there's the fact that on the whole, this population isn't at the risk that other populations are. >> yeah. i am not at all surprised by that polling. i have people who stop me all the time, i can't wait for my kid to get vaccinated. they will be first in line. this is fantastic. we can finally get together for the holidays. we can get together with family and we're not going to have to worry about this. other parents, no way. the big group -- i think some of those in the definitely not will move into wait and see. when you start to see the relief that families experience by having the entire family vaccinated and protected, that's going to shift things. i understand some of the hesitancy. this is a vaccine that in the trials was not tested in the same kind of numbers that adult vaccines were tested in. they just had to show that

children made a robust immune response. the good news is that kids did. but even -- it was with a third of the dose. they didn't need as much material to make that response. they had to show that there were not significant side effects. there are people who are going to want to say, i want to see what happens after it's given to hundreds of thousands of kids before i'm comfortable. as a pediatrician, i really want to meet parents where they are so that there's room for everyone. it's really exciting for those who want to get it right away. for others, they need to have some space. >> yeah. i think -- i'm not an epidemiologist. but having reported on this a lot now, the public health imperative of getting those numbers in the adult population up and up and up to press down community transmission, i feel like you are not going to have that same imperative to the 5 to 11 cohort. to the extent it becomes

available for parents that want to have it, hopefully, it's going to become available in a situation in which adult vaccinations got to the point where we are pushing down that community transmission more broadly. >> yeah. i think that's true. i also think that when i think about vaccinating kids, it's to protect those children. thankfully, children are at lower risk of severe disease. but it's real. it's a real disease. more than 600 children have died from this. thousands of children have been hospitalized by this. thousands of children have developed extended symptoms from this. it is real. kids also play a role in keeping the adults around them safe. thinking about teachers and food service workers, coaches and bus drivers, you really want to ensure those individuals are vaccinated but not everyone who is vaccinated gets a robust response. some people are immune problems

don't get a robust response. having kids around them vaccinated, that provides protection to them. it provides protection to grandparents and people at home who may have medical conditions. >> in terms of the numbers, 30,000 children hospitalizations in august, according to the american academy of pediatrics. 500 americans under 18 have died from it. 125 were children 5 to 11. there's a cascade -- there's a knock-on affect which i have talked to several folks, employers, who are considering this back to work policy who basically said, we can't bring people back to work until their kids can get vaccinated because it's not fair -- you can't tell someone come into this office, even if you are vaccinated, when you have unvaccinated kids at home. that's something hanging over a lot of the decisions about return to work and stuff like that. >> it does factor in there. the more we can do to protect children, the less stress on working parents. when these vaccines -- i expect

there will be vaccines for kids. when they are authorized, it's going to be really important that we make sure that employers are giving their workers paid time off to get their kids vaccinated. we don't see the same breakdown in terms of the have and have nots when it comes to kid vaccines. a third of workers in america don't have sick leave or personal leave. it's choosing between getting a paycheck that day or getting your kid vaccinated. we don't want people to have to make that choice. >> dr. besser, as always, great talk to you. thank you very much. that is all. good evening. i will pay you a compliment. i hate to encroach on your time. that was the most compelling, transfixing television i have seen about moles and mole removal in my life by far. i was watching it thinking, this woman is genuinely a genius. i can't take my eyes off this