tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC November 8, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PST
that pretty much only think about themselves and i am extremely disappointed in the actions of aaron rodgers. >> kids, that's what we call a reid. here are some facts even big bird would understand. the "new york times" is reporting that the gap in covid deaths, the death toll between red and blue america has grown faster over the past month than any previous point. the big difference of course is vaccination. so the lesson of the day is if you find yourself attacking big bird on getting vaccinated or really on any issue, you're probably on the wrong side. and in the case of those on the right already doing that, you're tonight's absolute worst. and that's tonight's "reidout." "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in" six new subpoenas from the select committee investigating january 6th.
tonight what we know about what the committee wants with michael flynn, bernard carrick, john eastman, and more. plus, why hasn't the justice department moved on steve bannon yet? new reporting on the right wing playbook drawn up in advance of the insurrection. >> all we are demanding of vice president pence is this afternoon at 1:00 he let the legislatures of the state look into this. >> plus the grim reality of the partisan toll covid continues to take on america. the former president addresses the world in glasgow. >> some of our progress stalled when my successor decided to unilaterally pull out of the paris agreement in his first year in office. i wasn't real happy about that. >> tonight energy secretary jennifer granholm on what it means for biden. good evening from new york.
i'm chris hayes. tonight the house select committee investigating the january 6th insurrection handed down to subpoenas to six more top trump officials and campaign aides. this comes after the chair of the committee congressman benny thompson, mississippi, said they were set to issue up to 20 new subpoenas. we have six as of today. one of them went to a guy whose name may ring a bell. we spent some time covering him back in the day. his name is bill steppian. he was involved in the new jersey bridgegate scandal. remember that? he was then governor chris christie's deputy chief of staff until he was fired and went on to work for trump. he was the campaign manager for trump's 2020 re-election where as the committee puts it in the letter it sent today to steppian he, quote, supervised the conversion of the campaign to an effort focused on stop the steal messaging. those lies the election was going to be stolen from donald trump were, quote, echoed by individuals who attacked the
u.s. capitol on january 6th. the campaign led by steppian also reportedly urged state and party officials to affect the outcome of the election like in michigan where they asked lawmakers to overrule the results and appoint electors for trump. next selection to jason miller the chief spokesman for donald trump's 2016 campaign in transition. he withdrew with news of having impregnated a campaign staffer. last year he joined the re-election campaign as a senior adviser. in that role as the committee notes he regularly spread the idea the campaign had been tainted by widespread fraud. after the election miller coordinated with trump and rudy guiliani to hold press events pushing the claims the election was rigged. according to reporting in robert costa and bob woodward's book miller was among trump allies who gathered at the woodward hotel the day before working up
a plan to foment a coup to overturn the election results. the third subpoena went to a largely unknown staffer and when i saw the name on the list i thought is this someone i should know? her name is angela mccollum. she is young, a 2019 graduate of clemson university who interned at the trump white house and went to work on the campaign ultimately in the role of national executive assistant of election day operations. the reason she appears to have been subpoenaed according to the committee is evidence that mccollum is, quote, aware of and participated if efforts to spread false information about alleged voter fraud in the election as well as efforts to encourage state legislators to alter the outcome of the election. in fact, we have very clear evidence of that last point in the form of a voice mail ms. mccollum left for a michigan lawmaker in the weeks following the election urging them to just appoint trump electors.
>> hi, representative -- my name is angela mccallum calling from trump campaign headquarters in washington, d.c. i know you're very busy but i did want to personally reach out to you on behalf of the president as you've got an opportunity to be a crucial part of his re-election. you do have the power to reclaim your authority and send a slate of electors that will support president trump and vice president pence. >> what an incredible voice mail kind of like a spam robo call for a coup. just blowing through the list. hey. how is it going? you can ignore the will of the people and install the loser. okay. thanks. another subpoena today goes to john eastman who is a more familiar character in this drama of course, a conservative lawyer who was in the news recently as the author of that memo outlining a plan for then vice president pence to essentially unilaterally overturn the election results on january 6th. the committee notes in the lead up to the election eastman told
the georgia state legislature they could reject election results and appoint electors. he also participated in a briefing for nearly 300 state legislators from several states regarding purported election fraud on january 2nd telling them it was their duty to fix this egregious conduct. and of course eastman was at the woodward hotel, too, in the trump war room helping plan the events of january 6th. he is the man with the white hair circled in this photo approaching rudy guiliani. the committee also subpoenaed former general michael flynn today. you will of course remember him as donald trump's first national security adviser who resigned after less than a month amid revelations his conversations with the russian ambassador before trump was inaugurated. he ended up pleading guilty to lying to the fbi, started cooperating with special counsel robert mueller's investigation then seemed to stop and turned against it and said it was a witch hunt and was later pardoned by donald trump. in its letter to flynn today the january 6th committee references
that he attended a december meeting in the oval office in which they discussed seizing voting machines, declaring a national emergency, invoking national emergency powers and continuing to spread the message the election had been tainted by widespread fraud. just the night before flynn spread similar claims on the right wing network news max. >> he could order, within the swing states, if he wanted to, he could take military capabilities and place them in those states and basically re-run an election in each of those states. it is not unprecedented. there are people out there talking about martial law like it is something we have never done. martial law has been instituted 64 times, greg. >> well, it would be unprecedented to institute martial law to re-run an election that you lost. the final subpoena today went to another familiar name, bernard
carrick. boy. that's a name. a former commissioner in the new york city police department who pleaded guilty to eight felony charges including tax fraud and making false statements back in the day. he then spent more than three years in prison and then was subsequently pardoned by donald trump last year. sort of a theme here of people pardoned by donald trump then working very hard to try to install donald trump in a coup. you got your bannon, your flynn, your carrick. it's a crew. carrick is an ally of trump and rudy guiliani his former boss whoa worked with to, quote, investigate allegations of voter fraud and promote stop the steal efforts. the committee notes reporting carrick paid for rooms and suites in washington, d.c. hotels and served as election related command centers. nice that he paid i guess. he participated in the january 5th meeting at the hotel with the also pardoned steve bannon, john eastman, others. this is where we are tonight with outstanding subpoenas for bill steppian, miller, mccallum. i hope she has a lawyer. definitely should get one if
you're watching. john eastman, bernard carrick, steve bannon who has made no move to comply despite the contempt vote against him. we wait to see what the newly subpoenaed trump allies, the january 6th committee, and the department of justice will do next. congresswoman zoe loft democrat from california is a member of the january 6th committee that just issued those subpoenas and joins me now. is there a unifying theme here in these folks or should we interpret this as the committee making its way through the main players? >> well, i think it is just part of our plowing through to get all the evidence about everything that happened. we clearly -- these were individuals who were heavily involved in trying to overturn the election, being involved in the so-called war rooms at the willard hotel. and we need to find out everything they said and did leading to that mercifully
failed effort to overturn the election. we are -- we have interviewed hundreds, over 150 people so far. we've got additional interviews and depositions ongoing so that we can get all the information. that is our job. >> the 150 interviews, it seems important. i just want to linger on that for a second. obviously the news is made by those who don't comply and we'll talk about steve bannon and maybe jeffrey clark in a moment. but the committee, my understanding, has been doing a lot of work in parallel to whatever obstacles are being thrown up by those individuals. >> that's right. we're just plowing ahead. quite a few people have stepped forward, voluntarily, to tell us what they know. a few people want to do that. but felt they would like to have a subpoena just to explain why
they were appearing. and then some have been more resistant. in each case we intend to get the information we need to get to the bottom of everything. how it was planned, what the intent was, who paid for it. >> let's talk about one of the people that was subpoenaed, jeffrey clark. key player in this if folks don't remember he was the -- he ended up as the number three in the department of justice. he reportedly plotted directly with president trump to replace the acting attorney general so as to have the department of justice take over this role of sending out letters to georgia and perhaps other states saying the election is tainted and you should consider your constitutional remedies including sending electorals for donald trump. the committee warns jeffrey clark he must cooperate with the investigation or it will move aggressively against him. chairman benny thompson if clark doesn't cooperate they will take strong measures to hold him accountable to meet his
obligation. my understanding was he was appearing before the committee on friday. can you tell us what happened? >> well, you know, it was executive session so i can't go into all the details, but i will -- i was in the meeting and he is required to answer questions. if he has some privilege that he wishes to assert, he is required to assert it question by question. he refused to do that. and ultimately he and his team walked out. that is unacceptable. we are doing a followup with him explaining that it is unacceptable and giving him a very short period of time to come to his senses and comply. i hope he does. >> steve bannon of course did clark one better by never even bothering to show up and today the attorney general of the united states held a press conference for an announcement on some prosecutions of a ransom ware attack and was asked a
question about mr. bennett. here is what happened. >> can you provide a status of the referral for mr. bannon, where you are on that? >> no. this is a criminal matter. it is an ongoing examination of the referral, and as you know the justice department doesn't comment on those. we evaluate these in the normal way we do, facts and the law, applying the principles of prosecution. >> by the book answer. but i wonder what you think about the timeline thus far. >> well, i don't know what the timeline is. but obviously they do need to take a look at the facts and the law to make a determination on whether to prosecute. i think the facts and the law are quite clear. and i expect the attorney general and the department of justice will proceed accordingly once they've gone through all of the material. i believe that the analysis is
being done in the ordinary course of events. it is not being run by the attorney general himself. it is being run by the law enforcement officials who would in every case ordinarily do that and i expect that the department of justice will indeed prosecute. >> all right. congresswoman zoe lofgren on the committee, thank you very much for your time tonight. >> any time. justice correspondent for "the nation" recently published a piece titled the department of justice is letting the coup plotters get away and he joins me now. there was a little bit of a moment i think today where there was an announcement that went out this morning there was going to be a big department of justice announcement and maybe would have something to do with this case. it did not. he got the question. he answered in a rote question and in his defense is sort of the way you're having to answer unless you are going to make news on it. you seem to think they are not moving quickly enough here. why? >> yeah. the conference was salt in the
wound here. look, the answer is ridiculous. right? he is saying he is looking at the law and the facts. the law and the facts are that steve bannon got a subpoena. here is what you have to research. was the subpoena duly authorized? yes. did he show up? no. then arrest him and we're done. that is the law and the facts here. the frustration with merrick garland for me is kind of boiling over. like you go to the store with your mom, mommy, mommy, i really need an attorney general, action attorney general and your mother says, we have attorney generals at home. you end up with merrick garland. he looks the part but doesn't do the things an attorney general is supposed to be doing. the scuttlebutt, there are so many layers to this, is that one of the reasons he is delaying going after steve bannon he is trying to cross all the ts, dot the is, and he is waiting for a court ruling showing that congress has a congressional purpose, legislative purpose for
their select committee hearing. he is kind of waiting for that decision before he goes whole hog on bannon, which sound like a reasonable, cautious thing to do until you remember the fact that look at what is happening. because he is delaying with bannon now all of these other subpoenas are going to be delayed because these people most likely i think flynn would be my take for the least likely to comply, these people are most likely not going to comply with the subpoena so now that is going to be delayed and now they'll have to be referred. you see what i'm saying? there isn't a lot of time here. because of the political realities of the situation. that is my last point here. with the waiting for the determination of a legislative purpose, all of this could be obviated if merrick garland and fbi director christopher wray were doing their job and investigating, having a criminal investigation into the people who planned and did this coup. like that would obviate the entire need for the select
committee. >> that is part, to me, gets us closer to the point in some ways. i mean, there is this piece today basically saying that, you know, talking about sort of garland's dispositional conservativism. >> his belief, his primary responsibility is the institution he is now serving and the need to depoliticize it after four years of decreasing obeisance to an out of control president. i guess the point here seems to be twofold. one is that you've got the committee doing its work. but it continues to be the case when you go through the committee subpoenas, like they tried to overturn an election. that was the thing they did. now, whether that crosses the boundary of federal criminal law or not i am not lawyer enough to know. there is reporting today about the fulton county district attorney and a grand jury possibly in georgia today, but that is in some ways the issue here, which is like whatever this committee were to do it really does seem like we saw
them try to attempt a coup and thus far face no criminal repercussions or investigations. >> it speaks to -- look, i don't want to impune bad faith. i think garland is a dedicated public servant. it speaks to cowardice. it speaks to straight cowardice. he is happy to indict the foot soldiers, the people who breached the capitol because that is easy. it is easy to get indictments of people waving confederate flags around and breaking out windows in the capitol. it is harder, comparatively harder to investigate and prosecute and charge the people who planned it. the people, the brains behind the operation. you can call the clown flu having brains. that is harder and he doesn't seem to have the gumption to do it. every delay brings us one step closer to democrats losing control of the house, not being able to continue their
congressional investigation, and everybody involved getting away with it. democrats right now are kind of reeling from the election results from a week ago wondering why voters didn't seem to care that the republican party tried to coup. my question for democrats is why doesn't your justice department care? where is the sense of urgency coming from the justice department and the fbi to care about these things and to do something about them? because i don't see it. >> a fair critique. thank you very much. the january 6th memo wasn't the only election scenario trump lawyer john eastman was dreaming up. he was also the coauthor of a report that claimed to depict what would happen if the election were somehow ambiguous. they wrote instead a violent instruction manual on how street gangs to join forces to ensure a second term for donald trump. ♪ [band plays] ♪ a place where everyone lives life well-protected.
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every single thing that has been outlined as the plan for today is perfectly legal. i have professor eastman here with me to say a few word about that. he is one of the preeminent constitutional scholars in the united states. >> all we are demanding of vice president pence is this afternoon at 1:00 he let the legislatures of the states look into this so we get to the bottom of it and the american people know whether we have control of the direction of our government or not.
>> that man who was introduced by rudy guiliani at trump's january 6th rally is john eastman. today he was subpoenaed by the committee investigating the january 6th insurrection. he is the guy who literally wrote the memo on how to overturn the election. he also a senior fellow to right wing think tank known as the clairmont institute. back in october, 2020 less than a month before the election even happened that institute released a report on a war game exercise it ran called 79 days to inauguration. it is the imagined aftermath of a disputed election filled with violent protests, crackdowns. listen to how it is described in the bulwark which wrote about it. quote, practically the report is an instruction manual for how trump partsans at all levels of government aided by citizen posses of proud boys could quite literally round up opposition leaders, kill them, and install trump for a second term in office. our guest wrote that piece and also served eight years in the george w. bush administration
and joins me now. good to have you here. >> nice to be here >> i want to introduce the precipitating incident for this report is something done by the integrity report. a lot of folks previous to the election watching donald trump saying it is rigged. we're headed somewhere bad. and this report said we assess president trump as likely to contest the result by legal and extra legal means in an attempt to hold on to power. remarkably prophetic and that came true. the clairmont institute then reacts to that with this report. what is that? >> right. so what the clairmont institute has done is basically said all of you people at the transition integrity project your hair is on fire. you don't need to worry. your focus is on the wrong place. your focus needs to be on left wing agitators and rioters who are going to cause all of this post election chaos. and we the clairmont institute and the texas public policy foundation are going to put on our sober, realistic war gamer
hats and find out exactly what is going to happen in the aftermath of these nationwide riots that we all assume are going to happen because antifa and black lives matter we all know are inherently violent. >> so they're sketching out, so rather than saying it is sort of like, no, i know you are, what am i? about the obvious authoritarian fantasies of donald trump and then they sketch out like this war gaming thing, basically just pretend, make believe. the name makes it sound like something serious. >> it is an excuse really for them to write their dream scenario. so they start by imagining that on election night texas is initially declared for biden. immediately afterwards the news stations withdraw their call that biden has won and how does the nation react? with riots in cities across the country. they imagine 14 police officers are shot. there are fires just consuming the nation.
it overwhelms police and fire officials. what does law enforcement do? they turn to rural sheriffs who are looking to the proud boys and oath keepers and three percenters putting their names out there saying hey we are retired law enforcement, retired military. we can protect the good americans in these rural counties from all of these raving bands of left wing rioters. and so this is really where their scenario begins. >> i mean, it is a bizarre document because it ostensibly is issued as a warning but is actually fantasy is that fair to say? >> yes. >> this is what will happen if the left wing doesn't get the result they want. but it is also like there is a sort of salivating happening in that bizarre text. >> yes. as i write in the piece they are steering into the violence. so the transition integrity project, they knew that if trump declared that he had won the election, that there would be a
place for the mass mobilization of peaceful protesters and they really wrangled with, okay. how do we do this and maintain the peaceful character of these protests? so you can see the tip, the transition integrity planners wrestling with the question. the clairmont institute doesn't wrestle at all. they assume violence is going to happen and say okay this justifies a massive authoritarian response starting with the federal government which rounds up antifa and black lives matter leaders by the thousands. and just on the lowest of charges they use rico statutes, which as legal scholars know is kind of a silly law but they are just looking for any justification to round these people up and get them off the playing field. some of the interactions are quite violent. they describe three people being killed in officer involved shootings and write in the report neither the suspects nor shooters were identified so it lends a sense of impunity to the whole exercise and starts to sound more like death squads than any legitimate law
enforcement function. >> i've read sections of this and i think it is not insane characterization to say it amounts to fascist fantasy. >> sure. >> but also the sort of justification of authoritarian moves. this is the thing in the air around all of this. you saw michael flynn that we played in the previous block talking about using martial law. it is the specter that hangs over the decision makers like milley, over christopher miller at dod when they are thinking about whether to use troops or not. this kind of fantasy about unrest, violence, and authoritarian response to a disputed election is the context for much of the decision makers in actual reality. >> right. that is what makes this much more than just political fantasizing because the key players behind this report were very active in that room with rudy guiliani. you had john eastman. you talked about the eastman memo. he is a key player in laying out the entire scenario. kt mcfarland michael flynn's deputy at the national security
council, she is part of the team laying out again how law enforcement aided by pro trump law enforcement and irregular posses of proud boys would win the 2020 election in the streets. i think that is why this bears much more scrutiny than it has gotten. >> find it online. thank you very much. >> thank you. ahead the conservative fury over giant yellow bird just trying to do his job. what it reveals about the tangible consequences of the right wing messaging on covid, next. when you hear, cough cough sneeze sneeze. [ sneezing ] it's time for, plop plop fizz fizz. alka seltzer plus cold relief. dissolves quickly. instantly ready to start working. so you can bounce back fast with alka-seltzer plus.
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there are roughly speaking two kinds of messaging that americans are getting on covid. there are people trying to be helpful. people across the ideological spectrum, people that are civil servants, media figures, just trying to get folks vaccinated to save lives. then there are people doing everything they can to undermine the progress we are slowly
making as a country. big bird from "sesame street" has always been a helper which is why this weekend the bird tweeted, the bird didn't literally tweet. a human tweeted for the bird. i got the covid-19 vaccine today. my wing is feeling a little sore, but it'll give my body an extra protective boost that keeps me and others healthy. if you've ever watched "sesame street" you won the show has always promoted public health measures. this morning the show shared this clip from 1972 when big bird learned about getting his measles vaccination. of course that did not stop those on the right from attacking and i cannot believe i'm saying this, big bird. for instance, aspiring podcaster senator ted cruz who heroically attacked the children's tv puppet as, quote, government propaganda for your 5-year-old. and, yes, this is dumb trolling. this is kind of what he does. but real life and death consequences here. beneath the discourse and gotcha stuff and all that, you don't have to go very far to see how
the constant drum beat from people like ted cruz specifically and others has had and can have huge repercussions. look at this chart from the "new york times" today showing the cumulative covid deaths since the beginning of this year when vaccines first started to become available. the blue line shows counties where president joe biden won at least 60% of the vote. the red line shows counties where donald trump won at least 60% of the vote. the gray line is everywhere in between. the times reports, quote, in october, 25 out of 100,000 residents of heavily trump counties died from covid more than three times higher than the rate in biden counties. we have the dean of the brown university school of public health joining me now. i was looking at this data today. there is also data suggesting 40% of republican adults remain unvaccinated where only 10% of democratic adults. i don't want to get into a like this is some sign of the superior virtue of one set of
people or the other or these people are pro science or these people are antiscience but there is a very real thing that's happened in this country. and it has had -- it has cost tangibly in a way that is very rare in governing like just a number of lives that did not have to die. >> thanks for having me back. no doubt about it. look, americans live in different information ecosystems. some americans get very different information than others. there are a group of americans who have been hearing nonstop for 10, 11 months now that vaccines don't work, they're experimental, all sorts of nonsense. and have also been hearing from the year before this was not a big deal, nothing worse than the flu. if it is not a big deal and you have an experimental vaccine no surprise you won't end up taking it. the consequences are what you said, which is tens of thousands of people have died unnecessarily. >> there is also something about the data that speaks to the
difficulties we've had in a response which is to say because it focuses on the county level, a lot of these counties, maybe the majority, are in democratic states or have democratic governors for instance or they might even have local democratic administrators. so woe tend to focus on policy, what ron desantis doing, greg abbott, and that policy matters but behavior here, culture, information ecosystem particularly vaccines has become so key and shows how robust that effect is. >> actually. it tells you the limits of state policy making. you can make vaccines widely available. we see that here in massachusetts where vaccines have been available, vast majority of people have gotten them. there are still counties in massachusetts where vaccine rates are lower than the national average. it is not because the governor is doing something wrong. the bottom line is people get their information from facebook and twitter and other sources and families and to the extent
they have been dissuaded from getting vaccinated that is really having an effect. >> of course the reason that big bird is tweeting about this is because we now have approved vacs for kids 5 to 11. people in my social circle are all posting their pictures of their kids getting vaccinated, people trying to get on websites that are overloaded. i think all of that is going to get sorted out within a week or so. but this is another place where those same messages are going to extend and the same fights will extend and i guess i wonder what you think the public health consequences of that are. >> i am actually worried about the long term public health consequences of this stuff. we have been pretty bipartisan when it comes to vaccinations. the most vaccinated state in our country pre-covid was mississippi. fabulous policies on vaccinations. what i am deeply worried about is this politicization of a vaccine is going to make people
go back and question vaccine mandates for measles, polio, or other things. i worry about really rolling back 50, 60 years of public health gains. >> there is a thing that happens in these discussions rhetorically where people i think any argument against the vac, the covid vaccine ends up in a sort of logical sense proving too much which is to say if it worked for that it worked for other vaccines. but then you never really want to take that rhetorical tact because i don't want to end up in a position where you've check mate gotcha someone into a corner where it is like if you believe that you can't believe in any vaccine mandates. yes, fine. then we're in precisely the position you identified. >> yeah. that is right. this is one of the things why i actually worry about trying to get into an argument with people. what we actually have to do is normalize this vaccine mandate because we've been doing mandates for a long time. they work. they've kept our kids healthy. but there are going to be people who are -- we are starting to
see this, legislators in mississippi have now started asking maybe we shouldn't have mandates at all. we have to push back against that. we cannot turn our back on the gains of science and public health over the last half century. >> always a pleasure. thank you very much. >> thank you. coming up, a big day at the u.n. climate conference in glasgow where before he spoke today barack obama referred to himself as john kerry's hype man and certainly lived up to his own billing. like many people with moderate to severe ulcerative colitis or crohn's disease, i was there. be right back. but my symptoms were keeping me from where i needed to be. so i talked to my doctor and learned humira is the #1 prescribed biologic for people with uc or crohn's disease. and humira helps people achieve remission that can last, so you can experience few or no symptoms. humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections, including tuberculosis, and cancers,
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for the past week the 26th united nations climate change conference has been taking place in scotland. the u.s. has taken a leading, active role in these proceedings. president joe biden in fact went there himself and addressed the conference last week. something that would have been entirely unthinkable had donald trump been re-elected president one year ago. in fact the trump administration's backtracking on climate policy cost the world
precious time we simply do not have. a mistake former president obama addressed in a speech at the climate conference today. >> back in the united states of course, some of our progress stalled when my successor decided to unilaterally pull out of the paris agreement in his first year in office. i wasn't real happy about that. and, yet, the determination of our state and local governments along with the regulations and investment my administration already put in place allowed our country to keep moving forward. despite hostility from the white house. >> president biden officially rejoin the paris agreement earlier this year, a main campaign pledge and he did it. as former president obama noted today the trump administration was not the only global player to shirk climate responsibilities over the past few years. >> the ratcheting up of ambition we anticipated in paris six
years ago has not been uniformly realized. i have to confess it was particularly des couraging to see the leaders of two of the world's largest emitters china and russia decline to even attend the proceedings and their national plans so far reflect what appears to be a dangerous lack of urgency, willingness to maintain the status quo on the part of those governments. that is a shame. >> now, he is right about that. there is a little bit of a glass house situation here. the u.s. does not have an exemplary record on the climate under both democratic and republican administrations the country has moved far too slowly to address the apocalyptic threat of global climate catastrophe. of course when the republicans are in power they actually moved the country back into denial. when democrats are in power they move ahead but very slowly. we need to move ahead quickly. last week the house passed the bipartisan infrastructure bill which to its credit contains
billions for clean energy but again does not go nearly far enough. the real big climate provision, the biggest ever, in the history of this country, will have to come from the democrats only build back better bill which as of now faces a very uncertain future. one of the key people in the biden administration charged with actually making a difference on climate joins me next. hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ you get more with aarp medicare advantage plans from unitedhealthcare. like free yearly eye exams... plus free designer frames and prescription lenses.
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it will reduce consumer energy costs. it will invest in a clean energy economy. it will create hundreds of thousands of jobs, and it will set the united states on course to meet its new climate targets achieving a 50 to 52% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions below 2005 levels by 2030. so the u.s. is back. >> president obama touted the importance of president biden's
build back better agenda in glasgow this morning, even though that bill that he was discussing has not actually passed the house. late friday night the house did pass another big biden bill, the bipartisan infrastructure bill, but the infrastructure bill doesn't have any of the real big climate fighting measures in it like the one that president obama touted. those are all in the nearly $2 trillion social policy and climate plan that has a very, very unclear future at this moment. i'm joined now by one of the key members of biden's cabinet when it comes to fighting climate change, secretary of energy jennifer granholm. it's great to have you. i want to start on that note. you've got president obama talking about the climate change. that hasn't passed. we instead have the infrastructure bill. you were just in scotland. what were you telling people there? like were you telling them we're going to pass this thing, trust me? >> well, yes, we were, and in
fact, i left on saturday just after the infrastructure bill was passed. and by the way, chris, just a slight correction on that. the infrastructure bill actually does have some significant climate provisions, including billions of dollars for -- for the transmission grid, including electric vehicle charing stations, including billions of dollars for that pluses up weatherization of homes including capping oil and gas wells, which are the source of a good number of methane leaks, so there are a lot of climate provisions, climate-related provisions in the bill. the reconciliation bill, the next step is going to be really exponentially more important because the long pole and the tent are the tax credits that are very significant that will get the private sector to invest in solar, wind, geothermal,
hydrogen, clean hydrogen, hydro power and the battery for the electric vehicle. the one-two punch for those will be very significant for the climate. those two will be about $700 billion, the biggest investment we've ever made in combatting climate change. >> i'm curious, what is the conference like? i've never been to one of these. i've thought about going. when i think about the politics of this, it just feels like -- it fills me with a kind of despair. we're watching how hard it is to get 50 democratic senators to agree on something. you're talking about every country in the world agreeing on something, and a thing that is difficult, that is going to be difficult for everyone. what is it like to be there? what is the mood like at this? >> well, i think the mood -- i mean, everybody there of course is totally committed to this fight, and every country's doing its own version of what we are doing, but some more and some less. one -- i mean, one of the things that happens there are a series of announcements that every
country makes about what it's going to do. so for example, the united states announced something called net zero world, where we were going to help counties that had made ambitious pledges but maybe didn't have the means to develop the pathways to get to those ambitious pledges, for example, the technology pathways. we're going to help a number of countries like indonesia, nigeria, egypt, ukraine to get to their goals of net zero by 2050, through our national labs. they have the expertise in identifying the pathway. that's the kind of announcement we made. we also made a big announcement, for example, the u.s. did on removing co2 from the atmosphere. we have a series of earth shots. you know you have moon shots. well, we have earth shots to be able to get to the technology leaps that are necessary to reach our goals. these are longer term strategies, so, for example, our carbon negative shot was to remove carbon from the atmosphere because the
intergovernmental panel on climate change says we cannot get to our overall goals without all manner of technologies including carbon removal from the atmosphere. >> are you confident -- i mean, i think i know the answer, but are you confident that when you talk about those $700 billion in climate investment across the two bills, and i agree that there is some good stuff in that infrastructure bill. the grid stuff, which maybe we can talk about in a second, i mean, i guess everyone's sort of wondering like is this thing going to happen? and just like how confident are you that it's going to happen and those climate investments are going to be there in the final thing that gets signed into law? >> you're talking about in the second step, right? the build back better agenda? >> yes, you're right. >> am i confident? yeah, yeah, no, listen, the president would not have put it out and expressed utter confidence in it if he hadn't been having very significant conversations with the senators who were more reluck tenant to
support the bigger part of the bill. i am very confident that we are going to get these very significant tax credits which are monetized, which are paid up front to allow for the buildout of these technologies, and that is going to -- it's over a long period of time. it will be a game changer. we've got to triple the amount of renewable energy on our transmission grid. we've got to double the size of our transmission grid. an investment tax credit of 30% for the buildout of the transmission grid in addition to what's already in the infrastructure package. so those -- these are significant incentives to be able to do what we need to do. >> how far -- i mean, how far does the -- just in the bipartisan infrastructure bill, the one that has been passed, what is -- explain to me what that money does when we talk about the grid. it seems very ab instruct to me, and -- abstract to me. where does that money go, for example? who gets it and what do they do? >> one example, we need to be able to as the federal
government take a position on the building of transmissions. so in other words, transmission lines are not built on spec. they're built by folks who are private sector folks who are going to be assured of a payback. but if you don't have an immediate offtake, then that's too much risk for them, so the united states can help that by saying we're going to have some of that offtake. we need to use our facilities on renewable energy. we'll take that risk. we know it's going to be paid back in full. so that's one example of how we will be able to do that. incentivizing local bofts to be able to grant the permitting necessary for these big transmission lines. doing the planning and the digging, if we're going to put transmission lands on federal right-of-ways, those are the kinds of things we're going to be inside the department creating a grid authority to break down some of the barriers that are definitely out there for the building of the grid.
>> all right, secretary jennifer granholm, just back from scotland. thank you very much. >> you bet. that is "all in" on this monday evening. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. i got your text, i cannot have dinner with you tomorrow, but i would like to have a rain check very soon. is that possible? >> that's great. and anytime you want to discuss our texts on national television, also great. i'm holding the rain check and i will send follow-up puppy pics. >> we will please explain puppy pics, thank you very much. we'll never talk about this in public. thanks for joining us this hour. big show tonight, lots of news to get to. late this afternoon six new subpoenas, very high profile subpoenas, issued by the january 6th investigation in congress. they have subpoenaed the trump 2020 campaign manager bill s