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tv   Craig Melvin Reports  MSNBC  November 10, 2021 8:00am-9:00am PST

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>> yes. >> did you have that before the 25th? >> yes. >> was it stocked? >> yes. >> with things you had bought and brought? >> yes. >> and do you go with that every day, or is that because of the situation? >> it was in the trunk of my car. >> okay. and the fanny pack? what's the situation with that? >> it was my work bag. i brought it to work with me and put it under my life guard booth. >> and that had first aid supplys? >> yes. >> after the meeting at 63rd, car source three, what happened? >> after the photograph, i believe -- i don't recall exactly, but there was about two or three vans that pulled up, like, big vans with people inside of them. >> okay. and what was their role in this evening? >> well, they showed up and wanted to protect the business. and i didn't really have a say
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in what everybody was doing. i was just there doing my first aid stuff, and then ryan bullch said why don't you come here and we'll go down to car source number two. >> so the people, a group of people was going to stay at car source three, and the people depicted in this photograph were going to go where? >> car source two. >> is that what happened? >> yes. >> so at that point, then, sam and sal had coverage for lack of a better word at both of their businesses to protect the property. correct? >> yes. >> so you get down to car source two. did all of these people go there? >> yes. besides sal, the owner. he did not. >> okay. during the night was sam and sal there? >> they were not. >> they left you guys there? >> yes. i believe nick smith was in contact with them throughout the night. i'm not certain, but i believe they were. >> and you get down there. were you able to get in on the
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business? >> yes. >> how? >> sal the owner actually gave nick smith a set of keys. >> did you personally see that? >> i did. >> did he give you any other direction regarding any equipment or anything like that? >> he let us know where the power washers and i think there's a single fire extinger wither in the building and some hoses, the hose hookups in case there were any fires we needed to put out at the lot. >> anything else about the roof? >> he showed the -- i believe it was dominic black and nick smith the two ladders there to get up on the roof. >> and did you guys use the ladders? >> i didn't personally, but the people that were on the roof did. >> okay. and you saw them use those ladders? >> i didn't see them, but that's how they got up there. >> okay. did -- where were you predominantly at car source two? >> i was in front of the car source two. >> now, during the night at car
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source two, did you stay there the whole time? >> no. not the whole time. >> okay. when you would leave car source two, what were you doing? >> when i left, i was with ryan bullch, and we would go out and ask if anybody needed first aid assistance, and we would see if there were any fires and we would put them out. >> did you personally put out any fires? >> i did. >> where? >> i put one out at the church. >> use the pointer. >> so right here was where there was the demolishing. they were raking some stuff down. but right here, i believe there was another building with an alleyway. it was either right here or here. i don't remember. fully. but there was a fire down the alleyway where they were trying to set the building and church on fire, and me and mr. bul.
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and i believe somebody else was there. we went to put out the fire. >> did you put it out? >> we did. >> then what did you do? >> around that time we saw the high school on fire, the front doors. and we were walking north down sheriton road to put the fire out. and then somebody else put the fire out before we got to ruther central high school. >> is that here on civic park? >> no. i'm sorry. that's my mistake. you're walking north on sheriton. it's the side of the building toward the left when you're walking north. >> in the general area where you tried to help remove graffiti earlier? >> yes. in that photo to the right. >> okay. and during the evening, was there any friction between your group and protesters/rioters?
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>> no. the only type of stuff that happened was the person that attacked me first threatened to kill me twice. >> okay. and the person who threatened to kill you, we now was mr. rosenbaum. correct? >> before august 5th of 2020, had you ever seen him before? >> i did not. >> had you ever done anything to upset him? >> no. >> now, you said he threatened to kill you twice? >> yes. >> describe the first time. >> the first time was me and ryan bulch were a little bit north toward the north corner of 59th and sheriton and mr. rosenbaum was walking with a steel chain and had a blue mask around his face. he was just mad about something.
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me and mr. bulch were asking people if they needed medical help. sorry for my language. he screamed if i catch any of you fuckers alone, i'm going to fucking kill you. >> and that was directed at you. >> yes. >> any or time? >> the second time was outside of the car source. i don't know if it was directed toward me. but i heard it. he said to i believe it was joanne feed ler, dustin, colette and another guy, he was screaming -- he said i'm going to cut your fucking hearts out -- i'm going to repeat the second part -- but kill you and worse. >> now, did you ever see mr.
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rosenbaum doing any physical property damage? >> i did. >> where? >> i saw him with -- i now know to be joshua za min ski. i saw him tip that trailer over, and the porta potty. i saw him do both. i believe he tried to start the porta potty on fire. i don't think he succeeded. but then i saw him with mr. zaminsky. he was either helping start it or throwing stuff on it. i don't know which one he was doing. >> where did you originally see that trailer? >> that trailer was in the st. james -- in the st. james church parking lot. sort of, like, right over here. in the backish corner, what i remember. >> and did you see how it got from there to where it was put on fire? >> it was pulled. >> by whom? >> it was several people that
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pulled it into the street and i can't tell you definitely who pulled it into the street. >> and you went down there and saw them starting the fire? >> i didn't go down there. i was at the corner of the car source lot. >> okay. >> and you referred to mr. zaminski. before august 5th of 2020, had you ever meet him? >> i had not. >> did you ever meet him since? >> i have not. >> when you first saw mr. rosenbaum, was the top half of his body clothed or unclothed? >> he was clothed with a blue mask the first time i saw him. >> and what was on -- what color was his shirt, if you remember? >> a dark reddish color. >> now, did you provide medical
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help to anyone? >> i did. >> describe a couple of those occasions. >> the first time i provided medical help to someone was this lady. i think she sprained her ankle or twisted it. i don't know exactly. i'm not an expert on x rays. i wouldn't know. she hurt her ankle and was being carried by two gentlemen. i said hey -- before that i was just pepper parade, but i was like hey, do you need help? and she said yes, and i said okay. let's go into the car source where i was helping people, and i wrapped her ankle, and then she went on her way. i let her know there was a hospital -- if you go -- i want to say second base sheriton.
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i let her know there was a hospital over there and she should get it looked at. >> anybody else? >> yes. >> who? >> somebody threw a chemical bomb actually, right after i heart i'm going to cut your heart out from mr. rosen bomb. i don't know who threw it, but someone threw a chemical bomb. i helped mr. bulch with being able to breathe and flushed his eyes out and had him drink some water. >> okay. in the answer to the question just before, you said something about being pepper sprayed? >> i did. >> where did that happen? >> that happened at the car source right -- i believe it's the first time a big crowd of people were over there. i was pepper sprayed by somebody that was in the crowd. i don't know why, but i was pepper sprayed. >> did you do anything in retaliation? >> i did not. >> now, directing your attention
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to later in the evening, did there come an occasion where you had contact with mr. mcguiness? >> there was. >> and before this evening, august 25th, 2020, had you ever met or spoke to mr. mcguiness? >> i have not. >> and you and mr. mcguiness and mr. bulch go someplace? >> yes. >> describe that. >> i get done with my interview with mr. mcguiness. no, i don't ask him. i said if you want to come with us, that's fine, to document and film the -- me and ryan helping people, and he said yeah, sure. he followed behind us. >> and in that tape with mr. mcguinness, there's talk about you being an emt correct? >> yes. >> are you an emt?
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>> no. >> you have -- >> you go south on sheriton road? >> correct. >> you stay south? >> i believe we stay to the right going south on the road. >> eventually you close that road? -- closs that road? >> yes. >> were the bear cats there yet? >> yes, they were. >> okay. and they set up a line to stop people that you were aware of? >> not that i was aware of. i just know they were parked right there. people were throwing rocks at them. >> did anybody tell you not to cross that line and you wouldn't be able to go back? >> not until later in the evening. >> you crossed that line, and where do you go? >> we continue straight in the southerly direction down sheriton road. >> going any place in particular? >> no. we were just going to see if anybody needed medical help. i've looked at a guy's shoulder
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on the way there. >> okay. >> and you finished with the guy's shoulder, and you continue on and what happened? >> i continue walking in a southerly direction, down sheriton road, and then as i'm walking, i believe you guys have referring to him as yellow pants. he said -- he called -- he said something to me. i believe it was, you're the one that pointed your rifle at me with the laser pointed at me. i believe that's what i heard. and i didn't. that's the first time i saw him that night, so i was confused, so i said i did. and then i continued to walk away. >> was the did an admission that you did it or more of a statement with a question? >> it was a sarcastic remark.
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>> did you engage with him any further? >> no. >> and from there, where did you go? >> there i continue walking in a southerly direction, merging toward the middle of sheriton road. >> at that point do you become aware of something? >> as i'm walking, i start to look because i realize mr. bulch is not with me anymore. >> did you continue down the road without him? >> no, i actually went to go look for mr. bulch in the ultimate gas station parking lot. >> okay. when you went to the ultimate gas station parking lot, describe what was going on there. >> there were a lot of people there. i don't really know what was going on. i was just focussed on trying to find mr. bulch. as i was looking for him, i couldn't find him. i said okay, no problem. i'll just go back to the car
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source number two. >> okay. and describe what happened as you did that. >> as i said that, i received a phone call from dominic black. >> okay. let me back up. were you able to get back to car source number two? >> i did not. >> describe that. >> as i was trying to get back, the police stopped me -- well, didn't stop me. they told me, i believe they said something along the lines to not go down there, and i was telling them, hey, i need to go down there. that's where i'm at, that business. i don't remember exactly how that conversation went. but they wouldn't let me go back to car source lot number two. >> so you weren't able to get back to car source lot number two? >> i did not. >> did you disobey the police's order? >> no. >> you're alone and stuck on the other side of the police line from the car source two. where do you go? >> i go to where there is other people at the gas station,
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protecting the gas station, and i go there because i believe that's the safest place to go, because there's other people there. >> at that point were you able to find mr. bul ch? >> i was not. >> were you at the ultimate gas station? >> correct. >> point it out just as a note. >> right there. the ultimate convenience center. diagonal from the golf gas station. >> okay. when you were there, what's the next significant thing that happened? >> dominic black calls me, and he says kyle, i need you to get down to the car source lot number three. the cars are being bashed in. they're setting all the cars on fire. i need you to go and put the fires out. >> okay. and did you do anything as a result of that phone call?
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>> i did. >> what? >> at the ultimate gas station, i asked -- i don't know who he is, but i asked an individual if he could come with me, and if i could have a fire extinguisher to put out the fires. >> were both of those requests satisfied? >> one of them were. >> what? >> i was given a fire extinguisher, but he said he can't come with me. and he said he believes there's already people down there helping protect the business. >> okay. and what did you do then? >> i start running toward the car source lot number three to put out the fires, pausing occasionally to catch my breath and walk. >> okay. >> on the way to car source three, did you have any interaction with mr. rosenbaum? >> i did not. >> did you speak to mr. rosenbaum? >> no. >> did you notice mr. rosenbaum
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doing anything as you went down to car source three? >> i didn't notice mr. rosenbaum until he came out from behind the car and ambushed me. >> okay. i'll get to that. >> did you run the whole way? >> no, i didn't. >> okay. you had your gun. correct? >> yes. >> and you had a fire extinguisher? >> yes. >> and you had your medic? >> my medical bag, yes. >> were you asking people about medic at that point? >> i was asking people if they needed medical help as i was getting down there. >> did you receive any responses? >> no, i didn't. >> describe your approach to car source number three. >> as i'm walking down sheriton road, i hear somebody scream, burn in hell, and i reply with friendly, friendly, friendly, to let them know, hey, i'm just here to help. i don't want any problems.
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i just want to put out the fires if there are any. i continue walking, and then i notice the dura max, a flame with the backseat of the duramax, and i step start the duramax. as i'm stepping forward, i believe his name is joshua zaminsky, he steps toward me with a pistol in his hand, and as -- as i'm walking -- as i'm walking toward to put out the fire, i drop the fire extinguisher, and i take a step back. >> okay. when you step back from mr. zaminsky, what's your plan? >> my plan is to get out of that situation and go back north down sheriton road to where the car source lot number two was. >> and did you get back? were you able to go in a northerly direction?
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>> i wasn't. >> describe what happens. >> i -- once i take that step back, i look over my shoulder, and mr. rosenbaum, mr. rosenbaum was now running from my right side, um, and i was cornered from in front of me with mr. zaminsky and there were -- there was three people right there.
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that's when i run -- >> we're going to just take a break anyway. you can just relax for a minute, sir. we're going to take a break. about ten minutes, and please don't talk about the case during the cas or read, watch, or listen. >> good wednesday morning to you. craig melvin here in new york city. all eyes and ears on that courtroom in kenosha, wisconsin. kyle rittenhouse on trial. kyle risen house on day 7 of this trial. taking the stand in his own defense. you just heard him there becoming apparently a bit emotional, talking about the circumstances that led to the shooting of three people. anthony hubert, joseph rosenbaum, and gaige
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grosskreutz. the 27-year-old survivor we heard from yesterday the testifying injured by rittenhouse. of course, kyle rittenhouse has claimed it was all in self-defense. he's pleaded not guilty. he's been testifying about that day in august of 2020. testifying that one of the men shot and killed, threatened to kill him twice. rittenhouse testified that he was pepper sprayed by someone in the crowd. and we should point out that if you've been listening and heard offensive language as rittenhouse testified about what he saw and heard the day he shot and killed those two and injured a third in kenosha, we apologize for the language you saw and heard. gabe gutierrez is on the ground in kenosha. he's been following this trial from the beginning. paul henderson is also with me. paul, veteran prosecutor. and the executive director of the san francisco department of police accountability. gabe, this is that moment that we were all waiting to see and
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hear. kyle rittenhouse taking the stand in his own defense. walk us through what we've heard so far from here, from him, but also walk us through a bit of a bomb shell from roughly 30 minutes ago. that bomb shell we heard from another witness as well. >> reporter: hi there, craig. good morning. as you mentioned, this entire trial had been building to this. kyle rittenhouse taking the witness stand just 18 years old. 17 years old at the time of the shooting, and telling his side of the story before this jury. it was a bit of a surprise that he was called this morning. we had been thinking it might happen perhaps this afternoon. perhaps tomorrow. the defense had not given any exact timetable for it. he did take the stand, and he is the centerpiece of the defense's case. essentially making the case himself to self-defense. as you saw a few moments ago, breaking down on the witness stand, and the court now taking a break. now, some things that jumped out
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to me is as he was describing his interaction with joseph rosenbaum, that's probably the most key interaction of this entire trial. at times it's felt during the proceedings that rosenbaum himself has been on trial. even though he was shot and killed. but the defense trying to make the case that it was rosenbaum that was the aggressor, and you just heard kyle rittenhouse right now say that i did not notice mr. rosenbaum until he came from behind the car and ambushed me. that word stuck out to me, craig. he said that rosenbaum ambushed him. he also told his defense attorney as he was being questioned that he came down to kenosha to provide first aid. he came down here because he had been listening and hearing the events unfolding here in kenosha following the police shooting of jacob blake. and fires had been set. he talked about how he got a fire extinguisher and was called to another business being set on
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fire and helped put that out and is walking on the street. he saw rosenbaum, and we just let go of the testimony right there as he apparently, a very traumatic event, and he said i look over my shoulder, and rosenbaum was looking toward my right side. that's when the judge decided to take a break as you saw rosenbaum kind of break down. i want to make sure you know what happened before rittenhouse took the stand. earlier today, the roommate of gaige grosskreutz, he actually took the witness stand, and he was called by the defense to provide testimony about a social media post that he had posted, saying essentially that grosskreutz told him shortly after the shooting that he had intended to kill rittenhouse. essentially, that he almost regretted that he hadn't done more. and gaige grosskreutz, he testified several days ago, he testified for the prosecution.
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he is the third man that rittenhouse shot. he shot and wounded him. and he was put forward by the prosecution to try to establish rittenhouse was the aggressor. on cross examination, he bolstered the defense's case by admitting that he confronted rittenhouse, and that rittenhouse only shot him once he had approached him with his gun. there's a dispute on whether he was pointing his gun or whether it was accidentally waved in front of rittenhouse. the being being that has been controversial in this case. so just this morning, his roommate took the stand. the defense was calling him to talk about the social media post, and in the middle of his testimony, the defense attorney asked him a question, and he said he essentially lied in that social media post, that he made it up, because he and grosskreutz's roommate had been receiving threats, and he admitted it was perhaps a bad call, but that's why he did it.
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that was a surprising bit of testimony earlier today. now the most surprising today, what we had been waiting for, rittenhouse still on the witness stand. got very emotional as he described being ambushed right before the shooting. >> gabe, i want to play the sound you were just talking about. this is jacob marshall, the roommate of gaige grosskreutz in his own words, and just for folks who are watching this, you'll see an image that's frozen. there was a bit of a tech issue, but you can hear his testimony. let's listen. >> this down here should have killed him right then and there. that's you. right? >> that is me saying that, yes. >> this post right here is you equating something that mr. grosskreutz said to you. >> i lied. he never said that. those words never came out of his mouth. >> paul, how damaging was that? >> well, it's pretty damaging, especially because these are
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shocking revelations that the jury certainly is not expecting. and so slowly or not so slowly, the foundation that prosecution has been building just keeps getting chipped away and chipped away. this has been a nightmare case for prosecution, and as a prosecutor, i know these are terrible things. but all of this has all happened in this one case. their principle witness was undermined on cross examination with the ambiguity about raising his gun or pointing his gun that really challenges what the defense is trying to present which is a case about self-defense. on top of that, we had nathan debrun, their witness that was taken over by the defense attorneys and was actually their witness. there's a late discovery with the video that just came in friday. let me tell you as a prosecutor, late discovery is never good for anyone. and then we've got the rulings from the judge. all of these are making this a
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nightmare case for prosecution. even though all of the action and all of this murder or shooting or tragedy, however you want to qualify it, is on video. so once again, we're examining almost at a macro level what happened with statements and interviews from people that were there, culminating in today's testimony from the defendant himself. and that's why everyone is leaning in so deeply to pay attention to what the defense is going to bring. what i thought was interesting, what stood out to me was from the very beginning, when defense attorney started questioning the defendant about what happened, you heard the question that they asked almost immediately of would you have shot anyone if you didn't feel like your life was threatened? now, i expected and it was objected to, but that plants a seed for the jury to listen to the testimony that's about to come even though that question went away and was not answered about where defense is trying to
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take this case. and that's why all of this is -- this really is the lynch pin testimony today that's coming in from the defendant, talking about how humanized he was, how sensitive he was, how he was trying to help people. if you listen to the little leads from the defense attorney, planting seeds about him being a life guard, about how he was a nursing student. how he wanted to help others and save others and he brought his first aid kit. that's why he bought a rifle sling, so he could help others in case he had to set his pep down so it wouldn't be used to harm himself or any other people. he mentioned that at least twice, that he was there to render first aid to people. and this really undermines prosecution's assertion about self-defense and why -- with self-defense and why he was there at the scene. it's a complicated case for the prosecution at this point. i think they're giving the
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defense more leeway than i would have given them, even with the statement from the defense. i would have been objecting many more times. there was one point in this morning's testimony where the defendant was talking about the other cars that were there and arriving, because they were going to help protect the property. there should have been an objection for speculation because he didn't know why other people may have been showing up. he didn't know or hadn't had conversations to. prosecution let that go, and they just wanted him to get this story out, and he is. and it's not going well for the prosecution, because i think the jury is seeing him humanized. the jury is seeing him emotional. the jury is hearing a valid and credible presentation filled with emotional tears and the defendant looks young and scared and the defendant looks like he was not there with an intent to harm people which is what prosecution is going to have to try and rehabilitate this narrative to try and show. there are a few nuggets in there for them as well.
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specifically, in the area where the police were telling him to leave, to go away. i think that's a nugget for prosecution to be arguing that he was not listening to the police and coming back just to bring his gun and walking into a confrontation that he was setting up because he was armed and knew people had already threatened him. >> we are showing the testimony that led to this ten minute break that we're in. kyle rittenhouse appearing to become so overcome with emotion that he was not able to continue his testimony. to your point, paul, this sort of raw emotion that he appears to be demonstrating there, how does that typically play with jurors? and in similar situations, does the judge usually stop the testimony? >> he does typically stop the testimony, and you saw the defendant on the stand looking over to the judge as he was breaking down and unable to
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communicate, and i got to tell you, with every witness that you put on the stand, there's a test of credibility from the jury. they want to hear the tone. they want to hear the speech cadence. they want to see ho you talk about what happened to you, and when you get to the point where it's a personal decision that is being made, especially when your life is being threatened, i know the jury is leaning in as did we all to hear this part of the narrative. because this is the part where he articulates in his own words what his present sense impressions were so the jury can try and glean with his intent was, what he was thinking, what he was feeling and what he was experiencing. this is his narrative to tell, and that's why it's so important. that's why it actually matters. it matters with every other witness, but it matters even more for the defendant, because his testimony is going to be the lynch pin of credibility to either validate or invalidate a self-defense claim. >> let's take a pause here for a
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moment. paul, gabe, don't go far. a quick break here. when we come back, continuing coverage of the trial. more testimony from kyle rittenhouse in just a few moments. we'll be right back. few moments. we'll be right back. so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? you got it. ♪ liberty, liberty - liberty, liberty ♪ uh, i'll settle for something i can dance to. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ people with moderate to severe psoriasis, are rethinking the choices they make like the splash they create the entrance they make, the surprises they initiate. otezla. it's a choice you can make. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable. don't use if you're allergic to otezla.
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>> during the evening, was there any friction between your group and protesters/rioters? >> no. the only type of con fron -- stuff that happened was the person that attacked me first threatened to kill me twice. >> okay. and the person who threatened to kill you now know was mr. rosenbaum, correct? >> yes. >> before august 5th of 2020, had you ever seen him before? >> i did not. >> had you ever done anything to upset him? >> no. >> that was just a few moepts ago. kyle rittenhouse testifying on
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his behalf. he has returned to the stand after a ten-minute resays. let's listen. >> stepped toward me. i went to go run south back south down sheriton and mr. rosenbaum was there at the corner of the duramax, starting to chase me. that's when i realized the only place i can run with the people around me is straight toward the building of the car source lot number three. >> when you saw mr. rosenbaum, that's when you said friendly friendly? >> when i heard burn inside, i don't know exactly where i was at in the time for that. >> did mr. rosenbaum say anything to you? >> no. mr. zaminsky instructed mr. rosenbaum to get him and kill him. that's what i heard. >> and you go running what's listen referred to, the southwest corner of car source? >> yes.
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>> and as you're running in that direction, describe being chased, what was happening? >> as i'm running in that southwest direction, mr. rosenbaum throws -- at the time i know t a bag now, but when he threw it at me, with the light, it looked silver, and it looked like the chain. when he threw it at me. and then i continued -- i turn around for -- for about a second while continuing to run, and i point my gun at mr. rosenbaum. >> does that stop him from chasing you? >> it does not. >> after you turn around and you had your hands up kind of in a low ready position? >> yes. >> and you see mr. rosenbaum coming at you? >> yes. >> and what do you do then? >> after he throws the bag and he continues to run, he's
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gaining speed on me. a gunshot is fired from directly behind me, and i take a few steps, and that's when i turn around. and as i'm turning around, mr. rosenbaum is -- i would say from me to where the judge is -- coming at me with his arms out in front of him. he -- i remember his hand on the barrel of my gun. >> and why didn't you just keep running? >> when i was over there, there were about 100 people surrounding that -- that -- those cars, and there was no space for me to continue to run to. >> so you turned around? >> yes. >> and as you see him lunging at you, what do you do? >> i shoot him. >> and how many times did you shoot? >> i believe four. >> and after you shot him, what
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did you do? >> the people around the -- the people around the cars that were originally there were not there anymore. they -- they moved away. and i ran around to see if i could help mr. rosenbaum. >> and when you got to mr. rosenbaum, what was happening? >> mr. mcguiness was -- he took off his helmet and slammed it on the ground and took off his shirt, and i don't remember what he said. i wasn't focussed on that. i was in shock, sort of. >> let me back up a second. did you know mr. mcbegin us was even around? >> i didn't. >> and he says something to you, and what do you do? >> i pull out my phone, and i call dominic black. >> and you call dominic, and what do you say? >> i told him i just shot somebody. i had to shoot him. >> what do you do then?
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>> i now know it to be kelly and joshua zaminsy. i don't know the other people. they were screaming get him, get him, get him. >> based upon that, did you feel you were safe to stay where you were at? >> i thought the safest option would be to go north on sheriton to turn myself into the law enforcement there. >> as you head down sheriton road, describe what's going on. >> as i'm running, at first i'm in the sidewalk, and mr. lakowski is in the sidewalk. i stop to talk to him for a brief second. i remember telling him i just shot somebody and i need help to get to the police, because the crowd -- not a crowd, a mob was chasing me. >> and did he offer you any help? >> i don't remember.
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>> what do you do then? >> i continue to run after hearing people say -- people were saying cranium him. get him. kill him. people were screaming, and i just was trying to get to the police running down the road. >> you say i'm trying to get to the police. why were you trying to get to the police? >> because i didn't do anything wrong. i defended myself. >> did you feel as though there was safety where the police were? >> yes. >> and as you head down sheriton road, what's the next thing you remember? >> the next thing i remember is anthony huber striking me in the head with a skateboard. >> okay. as you sit here today, do you remember talking to gaige grosskreutz? >> a little bit. i didn't know it was gaige grosskreutz when he came up to me, but sort of. >> okay. >> and when this individual runs up to you and gets how close? >> i would say within a foot.
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>> did you shoot him? >> i did not. >> did you point your gun at him? >> i did not. >> why not? >> i didn't see him as a threat to my safety or life. >> was he armed at that time? >> not that i noticed. >> and you continue running in a northerly direction down sheriton road? >> correct. >> as you're running in that direction, you said the next thing you remember is anthony huber? >> yes. >> describe that. >> anthony huber, what i remember, is running past anthony huber and as i'm running past mr. huber, he's holding a skateboard like a baseball bat, and he swings it down, and i block it with my arm, trying to prevent it from hitting me, but it still hits me in the neck. as i block it, it goes flying somewhere off in the distance. >> did you stop them? >> no. >> what do you do next? >> i keep running down sheriton
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road toward the police line. >> then what happens? >> i get lightheaded. i almost pass out, and i stumble and hit the ground. >> okay. before you hit the ground, how many types were you struck? >> i believe twice. >> okay. do you remember anything about it? >> i remember the first one being a rock. i don't remember who did it. but i remember, like, the bumpiness of, like, a concrete rock hitting me in the back of the head. >> okay. now, after being struck with mr. huber's skateboard, you end up on the ground in. >> yes. >> you're on the ground. what's the first thing you remember? >> as i'm on the ground, there are people around me. i don't recall how many, but i remember moving my rifle in their direction, and they back off besides one person. >> okay. when you noticed people by you,
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you said you moved your rifle in their direction. >> yes in. >> did that individual people coming? >> the last person did. >> okay. >> the people that stopped, what did you do to them? >> nothing. >> okay. and you're saying the last person in that group continued to come at you? >> yes. >> and describe what happened. >> the last person, i don't know his name. i don't think he was ever identified. jumps at me with his -- he was wearing boots, i believe. as he's running at me and jumping, as his boot is making contact with my face, i fire two shots at him. >> why did you shoot at him? >> i thought if he -- if i were to be knocked out or -- he would have stomped my face in if i didn't fire. >> as a result of being kicked in the face, what happens?
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>> mr. huber immediately after i'm kicked in the face runs up as i'm sitting up to try to get up and get to the police, i'm on my back, and mr. huber runs up. he as i'm getting up, he strikes me in the neck with his skateboard a second time. >> then what happened? >> he grabs my gun, and i can feel it pulling away from me, and can i feel the straps starting to come off my body. >> and what do you do then? >> i fire one shot. >> and after you fire striking we now know mr. huber, what do you do? >> i lower my weapon, and i see mr. grosskreutz with his hands up. as i'm lowering my weapon, i look down, and then mr. grosskreutz, he lunges at me
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with his pistol pointed directly at my head. >> you heard mr. grosskreutz' testimony about reracking in. >> yes. >> did you rerack your weapon? >> i did not. >> could i have the exhibit, please?
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>> showing what's been previously marked exhibit 28, do you recognize this? >> i do. >> now, when somebody -- as mr. grosskreutz said, rerack, is that this? >> is that this? >> i call it charging. >> and to recharge you have to pull it all of the way back? >> yes. >> i would say that is about four inches? i'm asking if you agree with that approximation. >> how far do you think that is? >> three or four inches. >> and the weapon is loaded, and you rerack, what happens? >> if there is already a round in the chamber when you rerack the rifle a live round would come out, chambering a new round
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into the chamber. >> now it got to the point where he was standing in front of you and has his hands up? >> correct. >> are you aware that he is armed? >> at that point i do see a pistol in his hand. >> is that the same or different? >> that is different. >> and he is standing, you said, how close to you? >>. >> what i remember is our feet were touching, it seemed like. >> and you do what? >> my rifle is down, his hands are up, his pistol is in his hand, and then mr. groscruts,
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his arm is like this, and his arm goes down and his pistol is pointed at me and i shoot him. >> how many times did you shoot him? >> once. >> do you know where you shot him? >> no. >> what happens after you shoot him? >> he is no long aerothreat to me. there is only one person in front of me and his hands are up. i briefly point my rifle at him and i get on to one knee, getting up, and he backs up with his hands up and i don't shoot him. >> did you notice anyone to your sides? >> to my left there was a gentleman with a pipe, and to my right i believe it was a fence post, it was a large object. >> once you're to your feet, what do you do?
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>> i start walking to the police line to turn myself in to the police. >> where is the police line, is it in the same place? >> it had moved up a little bit. i was i was down in the road practically approximately right here. i could see the flashing lights as i was trying to get to the police. >> as you go towards the police line, describe what happens. >> i run and walk. as i'm going towards the police and can't really hear anything. my vision is narrow, i can only see in front of me, i can only
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see the flashing lights. i remember i occasionally tried to move my rifle behind me to put it behind me so i could, so the police didn't see me as a threat when i tried to turn myself in. i continue to walk and then i walk towards the window of the sedan, the police cruiser sedan. and i tell the officer i just shot somebody, i just shot somebody, and the officer says "get the fuck back or you're going to get pepper sprayed. go home, go home, go home." >> then where do you go? >> i go to car source number two. >> there was no line there? they were not stopping people from going in a northerly direction? >> and you go to car source number two and who do you see. >> i get there and i see, i
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think the first person i see is joann. i don't remember exactly, but i believe that is who is outside at the door. they let me inside. the door is locked so someone had to get the key to unlock it. and then we go inside and i'm, i'm in shock. i don't really remember what was happening in there. i was, i was freaking out. i was just attacked, my head was spinning. >> did you go and turn yourself into the police department? >> i did not. >> why not? >> the kenosha police department was barricaded off with a fence and i don't think they were accepting anyone to come to the police department at that time. >> what did you do then? >> i went to the antioch police department by my house. >> who took you there? >> my mother.
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>> how did you get to antioch? >> dominic black drove me. he drove me to my house where i meet with my mother and sisters and i sort of tell them what happened. i was still in shock. my head was still spinning and then we went to the police department where i turned myself in. >> who drove you to the antioch police department. >> my mother. >> anyone else go with you? >> not at first. >> you get to the antioch police department at what time? >> i would say an hour after the shooting. >> and when you get will are you looking for you? >> did you have to explain to someone? >> i said i was involved in a shooting in kenosha and i needed their detectives. >> did they take you into custody? >> they had me sit in the lobby
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of a police department. >> were you handcuffed to a chair? >> did you stay there? >> i could not give you the exact time, but until the detectives showed up. >> were you having physical discomfort? >> i was vomiting, having panic attacks, and my head was spinning, i could not think at that point.
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good morning, mr. rittenhouse. >> good morning. >> everyone that you shot at that night you intended to kill, correct? >> i did not intend to kill them, i intended to stop the people that were attacking me. >> by killing them? >> i did what i had to do to stop the person who was attacking me. >> by killing them? >> two of them passed away, but i stopped the threat from attacking me. >> by using deadly force. >> i used deadly force. >> that you knew would kill them? >> i didn't know, but i used deadly force to stop the attack. >> you intentionally used deadly force against joseph rosenbaum, correct? >> yes. >> and you used deadly force
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against the plan that tried to kick you in the face? >> yes. >> you intentionally used deadly force against gaige crosskreutz. you intended to kill rosenbaum, correct? >> no, i intended to stop the person who was attacking me and trying to steal my gun. >> since august 25th, 2020, this is the first time that you have told your story. >> object. >> sustained. >> since august 25th, 2020, you had the benefit of watching countless videos of your actions that night, correct? >> i have seen certain videos, not all of them. i have seen a majority of them, actually, here during the trial. >> you also had the opportunity
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to read articles people wrote, interviews, things like that about what happened sf. >> i do my best to avoid what people write on the internet, a majority of it is not true. >> you also sat here through eight days of trial, correct? >> yes. >> and you had the opportunity to watch all of the videos. >> yes. >> if you could please let me finish my question before answering and i will do my best to let you finish your answer before i go on to the next question, fair? >> yes. >> you also had the opportunity to listen to the testimony of all 30-some witnesses that testified so far, correct? >> yes. >> after all of that now you're telling us your side of the story, correct? >> correct. >> can i ask you folks to go on the record for just a second to talk about the


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