tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC November 12, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PST
"cross connection tomorrow." tomorrow a new feature documentary that explores the decade long cover up of the los angeles area, the families that suffered and one mother's journey to activism after watching her own daughter fights cancer twice. "in the dark of the valley" airs on sunday on msnbc. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on "all in." >> all hell is going to break lose tomorrow. steven k. bannon indicted by a federal grand jury. >> there is no doubt that mr. bannon knows far more. >> tonight what we know about bannon's surrender and what we know about the charges he faces and what this means for the investigation. the other witnesses attempting to stonewall the committee. >> you can't blow off a subpoena
in america. >> the jaw-dropping new evidence of donald trump disregard for the life of his own vice president. >> you heard those chants, that was terrible. >> well, the people are very angry. >> wait until you see the new all time lows for republican propaganda on fox news, "all in" starts right now. >> good evening, from new york, i am chris hayes, today for the second time in just two years steve bannon has been indicted. he's been indicted on criminal charges, his first indictment he was charged with defrauding donors to his private border walls, ripping off the maga voters who backed his and trump's calls to drain the swamp. he was pardoned by trump during
his final days in office, the last day he was there and that came after bannon helped plan january 6th. tonight bannon once again finds himself subject to a federal indictment. after a grand jury charged him with two counts of contempt of congress. one for his refusal to testify before the committee investigating the insurrection and the other for refusing to turn over records. bannon was subpoenaed back in september, ordered to to return documents on october 7th. he basically ignored the committee which led the house to hold him contempt three weeks ago and referring him to the justice department and the last two and a half weeks, that's been it. nobody knew if attorney general merrick garland is pursuing the matter. today all that changed. the indictment points out that is bannon asserted executive privilege quote "was a private citizen for approximately seven
months in 2016." bannon was employed in the executive branch of the u.s. government as the chief strategist and counselor to the president. bannon did not work in any executive branch or federal government positions. from his podcast from january 5th, the day before the insurrection making a pathetic prediction about what would happen at the capitol on the 6th. >> all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. just understand this. all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. it's going to be moving and quick. >> law enforcement source tells nbc news bannon is expected to surrender himself on monday and appear in court that afternoon. he could face up two years in prison and $100,000 fine. it's hard to overstate the
importance of the indictment. a form era began epa official refused to testify. the case did end in an acquittal. the stakes here are much higher. bannon's argument for refusal to comply is completely bonus claim of his executive privilege. the timing is crucial as well. this timing could not be more fitting. this indictment was released the same day that donald trump's chief of staff, mark meadows, was scheduled to appear with the committee. meadows was as no-show. his lawyer, the guy we told you about served as acting attorney general released a statement. "mr. meadows remains under the
instructions of former president trump to respect long standing principles of executive privilege. >> the select committee will view mr. meadows's failure to appear to deposition. the committee will consider invoking the contempt of congress's procedure. which is precisely the process that played out and happen to steve bannon today. he's indicted. you want to know what he was doing, hours before his indictment was handed down. he was on his podcast spreading more insurrection propaganda talking about november 3rd. >> the movement was so important, how they did the big steal and until you understand it and see how it was done. break the pieces apart. then are able to hold people
accountable and figure out what action comes next and my thing is we must desertify these electors. every generation demands of us. demands of us. do this. >> oh man, say what you will. luke broadwater, luke, this is enormous development today, how did it come about? >> right, well there was a big question about whether merrick garland would accept this referral from the house and charge bannon. they were concerned if there were not charges here they would have no teeth whatsoever and everybody in mr. trump's world
would start defying their subpoenas. this was a big win for them today. it means that mr. bannon will have to come in and testify and share all these documents the committee wants from him or he can face jail time, up to two years in jail. one year on each count. so it was a major development for the committee today and it sends a serious message that the committee has to be taken seriously and the change in the department of justice means that no longer will officials in the trump administration will be able to defy congressional orders. >> yeah, that's a good point. i forget how many there were but i remember, i think there were a few referrals some what similar to this. i don't know if there were criminals. there were referrals that happened in previous administration with an attorney general either jeff sessions or william barr or whitaker that
were essentially not pursued. it just did not go anywhere. >> for four years congressman could not get anything out of the trump administration. i mean bill barr in the latest stages was openly saying we are not going to participate with anything they asked of us. this signals a big change and it means the committee is, you know, steve bannon does not want to go to jail potentially and he may have to come in. >> if you look back at cases in the '70s and '80s and '90s. many reluctant witnesses would come in and testify. it does provide a powerful incentive for cooperation. you know the committee is not a criminal committee. what they are asking is coming in and testify and do documents as they investigate this. they would not be trying necessarily to throw them in
jail if he's coming to testify. >> the timing with meadow is interesting. >> the committee worries of as domino effect. there is a kind of broader sense of a bunch of people who have been subpoenaed in the orbit and what they'll do, we know meadows was, quote on quote, "engaging with council." that came ahead of meadows. >> right, there are three people including bannon openly defy the committee. for a while it seems that mark meadows would participate. his attorney told tl committee that he's searching through documents that potentially he'll turn over to them. when it came time to testify and show up in person, he didn't show and so they have now
written sort of a warning letter to him. i would not be surprised if we see a committee vote coming up in the near future. his case is some what different than steve bannon as he was in the white house at the time while steve bannon was not. there is another trump ally jeffery clark who also refused to comply with his subpoena. he's a department of justice lawyer. he cited attorney/client privilege. he did show up in person and give them a letter. there are three main people here refused to comply. >> luke broadwater,thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you. >> daniel goldman he joins me now. dan, okay, how big of a deal is this and what happens next?
>> well, it's a big deal because rarely as you pointed out as something like this charge. this is a very influential person in trump's world as you just heard from some of his ranting on his podcast today. it's a big deal. in many ways it's a big deal was merrick garland is drawing a line in the sand saying i am not afraid of partisan political brush back or -- i am going to reinstate the rule of law. that was what was missing in the trump administration. that's what we are facing with all of these insurrectionists and accusations that they con to this day about the big steal and all that stuff. i think the message is significant for steve bannon. the message is even more
significant for our institutions defending congress and congressional subpoenas and defending the rule of law which we desperately need in this country. >> on bannon's case, he just douse not show up. he has no real plausible claim. he's a podcaster who's like buddies with the president and there is no callable claim of executive privilege here. given that and he's in this sort of specific different category. literally what happens, he turn himself in and a prosecution gets mounted and is he going to try to mount his defense on executive grounds? i don't understand how it works. >> he'll appear on monday and
plead not guilty and they'll go through the trial process and there may be motion and a trial. this trial is not going to happen next week. it will probably be a few months before the trial actually begins. so, that is what will happen in bannon's case. bannon is not compelled to turn over documents or testify by this prosecution. this prosecution may simply put him in jail. it does not compel him to turn in documents. i think the strategy that's going on right now in the house is very interesting. they are pursuing the documents through this case that's going through the d.c. courts and what they are doing is those documents are probably very similar to any documents that bannon or meadows would have. they're pursuing the documents in court through that case and they are pursuing the witnesses with these on contempt
proceedings with meadows. i think they need to be careful about charging meadows with contempt of congress for the documents. he does have a colorable claim about executive privilege. he's not in a position to adjudicate whether trump's assertion or instructions to him are valid or not. this is what's important. he has to show up. he can't just simply not show up for testimony. you can show up for testimony and claim executive privilege. if he does not show up for testimony, that's a clear cut case of con contempt of congres. i would continue to pursue these witnesses with contempt and ultimately you get document in a case that you move quickly. if you are going to defy congress and not testify then you are going to be prosecuted.
>> right. the third individual that luke was speaking of is jeffery clark, the head of the civil division in the last moments of the trump administration and essentially kind of coup-plotted with the president for a lack of a better phrase. he came and showed up and just asserted a lot of privilege and the committee is quite frustrated. >> that's right. jeffery clark understands that he can't defy and not show up but he can raise whatever arguments he wants and those maybe legitimate or not be. that's where the courts have to come in and traditionally what has happened in the last congress is just takes a long time so hopefully the courts have learned their lesson as the district court judge has in issuing a quick ruling.
let's hope the d.c. circuits will follow suits and move it quickly. >> daniel goldman. thank you. there is real question about whether the department of justice would pursue charges but they did and it's a critical development. the committee serves a bright warning sign for any potential witnesses tried to pull the same stunt. what does it mean for the ones who already have it. that's next. e ones who already have it. that's next. oh, there you are. you know cath, with chase freedom unlimited we can cashback on all our holiday shopping. earn 3% at drugstores! i'll be at checkout. you bring the card. wait - i'm paying again?! earn big time with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. ♪ ♪ ♪
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>> all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. it's going to be moving. it's going to be quick. >> the country is crossing a significant threshold. we are seeing some form of accountability. >> steve bannon had been indicted for two clause. it happens on the day that mark meadows was supposed to testify before the committee but refused to go up. congressman, it's good to have you, what's your reaction to
this development congress neguse? >> it's good to be with you. i think the line prosecutors at doj made the right call. clearly a subpoena issued to mr. bannon and the testimonial subpoena were lawful. mr. bannon chose to willfully disobey and defy that subpoena. he sends a message out there. it really became the norm during the course of the trump administration. you had the executive branch and wide variety of individuals to
overturn. this indictment is moving forward is an important step. it's important for us not to under state the gravity of the decision. clearly it's a big deal and i am hopeful it will have a persuasive impact on witnesses to come. >> i want to read what the committee statement put out by the chair and vice chair. >> steve bannon's excitement should send a clear message to anyone who thinks they can ignore the select committee or try to stonewall our investigation. no one is above the law. >> what we saw during the trump's years was these kind of
grace spaces between law and norm and custom that tend to guide the kind of constitutional structure of branch accomodation completely fallen apart. in some ways a contempt referral is an example of it falling apart. >> you have norms after norms. >> i think the fact that this indictment is up in file will view people of that notion moving forward. the decision underscores a topic that you and i discussed previously that the congress should not have to rely on the executive branch. article i provides in the notion
that it relies on the justice department. >> well, there is a broader question and implication here which is that both parties will be in different situations in terms of which offices they occupy whether it's the white house with an opposition congress. there is sort of institutional branch equities to protect here and then there is, you know, the partisan possibilities and i saw jim jordan today threatening, look, we'll come after ron klain and the chief of staff, we want to hear testimonies from them. under long standing executive privilege prudence, they would be exempted from that.
i wonder what you think and what it means going forward? >> i don't take it seriously. the end of the day, the privilege that we are talking about here by someone like steve bannon who as you said is a private citizen who had not worked at the white house for years who decided to disregard the subpoena, not just come and testify openly and invoke privileges but just decided not to show up at all. that's the kind of defiance, of the absolute privileges that we invoke during the trump administration that i don't think our constitution can stand. that's the distinction here. you have extreme examples and of course in the case of mr.
bannon. zmo i am always going to fall on the side of congressional oversight and the idea of separation of powers have to be able to do that. >> you are overlooking the podcast and it's an important protection. congressman neguse, thank you for joining us tonight. >> good to see you chris. coming up, donald trump on tape defended the rioters who chanted "hang mike pence" at the capitol. that's next. g mike pence" at the capitol. that's next. dissolves quickly. instantly ready to start working. so you can bounce back fast with alka-seltzer plus.
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mob that threatened mike pence but also defended them. what if the group of rioters smashed windows trying to get the speaker locked and the crowd included ashley babbit, what if they had got through and came face-to-face with members of congress. what would have done to them with the implements they're using to bang down the doors. what if they assaulted them or kidnapped them or killed them. what if they had manage to find mike pence, as we know now from reporting from jonathan carl where he read donald trump accusing him not having the
courage to do what should have been done. all this is happening as the mob chanting "hang mike pence." >> what if they gotten to the vice president. what if they surrounded him and made good on their threat? >> what if some awful violence ensued? >> mike pence was hunkered down in a secret location for a reason. there were thousands of insurrectionists that literally wanted to murder the vice president. what would american politics looked like if that had happen? >> here is the really, really dark -- would it change anything? would anything be different in the after math? >> i don't know the answer but i despair to think that not a lot would. i don't think it would have changed donald trump at all. just listen to how unbothered he
is by what did happen as he told jonathan carl in an interview of his upcoming book "betrayal." >> were you worried about him during that siege? no, no, i thought he was protected and in good shape. >> i had heard he was in very good shape. but -- >> you heard those chants, that was terrible. >> well, the people are very angry. >> they said "hang mike pence." >> it's common sense that you are supposed to protect. if you know voter fraudulent, how could you pass on a fraudulent vote to congress? >> it's common sense. people are very angry. >> yes, they said they wanted to murder the vice president, you know? >> carl also reports that then president trump liked what he
saw. and of course for trump desperately insecure. this was as form of power. >> the menace of it all is the point. it's the point, a form of coercion. as as way of exerting political power. the worst did not happen on january 6th. it's hard to think about what success for those people right there would look like because it's in comprehensible. they were being honest in the threats they were made and so is donald trump in this new interview. >> he thinks it's fine and deserved and justify and understandable, the brain mop he whipped up was threaten to break the neck of his vice president. >> what does all this information means for trump?
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were you worried about that siege? >> no, i thought he was well-protected and i had heard he was in good shape. i heard he was in very good shape but -- >> you heard those chants? that was terrible. >> he could have, well, the people are very angry. >> they said "hang mike pence." >> it's common sense that you are supposed to protect -- how could you and if you know voters fraudulent, how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to congress. >> that was recorded a little over two months apart. donald trump had plenty of time to think about how he'll respond if he was asked of the "hang the
mike pence chant." he's the one who sent them there. they were angry. he had it coming. while it's shocking and unprecedented in american history, is anyone surprise to hear trump say it? jonathan chase, his piece today is on "trump defends insurrectionists trying to hang mike pence as "common sense." and jonathan, let me start with you. i think it was pretty pro-right rhetoric from the beginning. i am not sure how much evolution it had been.
this is the most forthright i heard since the day he was obviously defending it and whipping it up. >> i think the reason you have that reaction and a lot of people have that reaction because we knew in a sense that he was a riot. the music have been the same. the wars have changed. we don't real how much the work because we were not listen to the words. we were listen to the music. what he said a week after the insurrection was terrible calamity and then he started edging slowly step by step towards justifying the rioters and at first he would say well, they should be looking at other things and then he starts saying what about the election fraud and he's kind of finally got to this place, well, they need to riot for a reason. >> yeah, the november 3rd was a real insurrection.
and this sort of the error of menace, lisa, the piece that you did. just the present and we talked about it on the show. it's a theme that i am pretty obsessed with. the presence of death threats and voice mails and when the president targets you, that you have to hire for security. gonzalez who basically wanted to quit congress, he had a security guard escorted him at the airport. >> i don't think it's background noise at all. members, the level of threats of congress is on track to double this year. members get these vicious
threats, their voice mailboxes are full and they have things that's put into their homes against their family members. congresswoman from michigan shared a couple of these voice mails with me and they're really vile. she came back to her home and there were a man with assault weapon standing outside. this is very present in the lives of our members of congress. part of what we see is what happened on january 6th and the after math is you had former president trump laying a foundation for this kind of acceleration. if you believe as many conservatives do that the election was stolen. that provides you a platform to justify a lot of pretty radical
violent act. that's what we are witnessing now. >> it's grown extremely violent. these are not wars that are tossed around lightly. these are words with serious meanings. >> yeah, i want to read the reporting from one of the voice mails. i was struck by that. they ought to try you for treason, one called her and screamed "i hope your family dies in front of you." lisa's point is really important. the entire structure is built in a proverse way on a logical, it follows from the premise. the premise is the election was stolen and the greatest triumph
was pulled off in the front of your face. were that the case they are storming the capitol may be under taken in the face of what's essentially, it also justifies extra democrats mean of redress if that's the case. >> that's exactly right. >> trump was very logical when -- why do you sit there and this ill-legitimate takes the power and you do nothing. of course you do something. >> that the notion of the fundamental legitimacy, what where he need is democrats need to recount. >> indeed with these avenues
that you document and the piece, i can't get over how much i hear to claim conservatives and reactions and what do i say when they are saying you are next. >> look, that portion of the voice mail that you read from debbie jingle there. that was the only portion that you can read on air. that would get passed sensors or things that that. i think it's important to think about this in the larger structure of the republican party. it's about a third plus or minus of republicans and various polls when they are asked in different ways whether they see a situation which violence can be justified. that's really sizable and some what shocking number. what's happening outside of that
number and there is of course members of congress and they you saw it with congresswoman bosert. >> but, i think what's happening the broader party is the sies silence. >> they don't stand up in the face of this kind of violent-rhetoric and that frankly allows it toflourish. >> that's nothing you will rush to your microphone and condemn. >> thank you lisa and jonathan. this sunday, "in the dark of the valley."
that was covered up for decades and the long-term consequences for the family. >> i would not say it's always in the front of my mind but it's consistently in the back of my mind. in the back of my mind when i give my kids water or give them a bath. >> you can watch "in the dark of the valley" on sunday at 10:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. fox news reaches new lows. the case of the vanishing hands after this. e vanishing hands after this could be hurting your stomach. new vazalore is the first liquid-filled aspirin capsule clinically shown to cause fewer ulcers than plain aspirin. vazalore is designed to help protect... releasing aspirin after it leaves your stomach... where it is absorbed to give you the benefits
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to make a politician say something they did not day. the clip came from a veterans day speech given by president biden. satchel paige is remembered as one of the greatest pitchers of all time but due to segregation he didn't get to pitch in the major leagues until it had been integrated. he was one of the greatest players to come out of what is known as the negro leagues, the all-back league during segregation. this is the unedited version of how president biden referred to him. >> i've adopted the attitude of the great negro -- at the time, pitcher in the negro leagues, went on to become a great pitcher in the pros, in major league baseball after jackie robinson. his name was satchel paige. >> now, biden stumbled a little but it's clear what he's saying. listen again. >> i've adopted the attitude of
great negro -- at the time, pitcher in the negro leagues, went on to become a great pitcher in the pros, in major league baseball after jackie robinson. his name was satchel paige. >> fox news takes that bite and ended the context out of the middle. i'm going to play to you, when you listen, watch for where the hand goes, watch for the vanishing hand. when that sound played on fox, it sounded like this. >> president biden facing backlash for a comment during his veterans day address. listen to this. >> i've adopted the attitude of the great negro at the time pitcher, his name was satchel paige. >> biden's choice of words while referencing hall of fame pitcher satchel paige landing him in hot water. the remark came while biden was attempting to wish secretary of
state blinken's dad a happy birthday. that birthday wish didn't go so well. >> yeah. did not. >> so that was deceptively edited to make it sound like biden was calling satchel paige "negro." this part with the line through it is just gone. that's why you get the disappearing hand. fox news is the most powerful messaging arm the republican party has and it just kind of pumps lies, mistruths, disinformation, and constant agitated rage into the homes of millions of millions of americans every single day and in doing so, it just sort of relentlessly hammers. the republican base slash fox news audience naturally hated barack obama, it naturally hated hillary clinton, it naturally
hated biden and harris. pumping out lies all year, including straight-up deception like you see, and they've succeeded. they're taught their base to hate joe biden. joining me now, david plouffe, 2008 obama campaign manager as well as a former senior adviser of president obama. he is here to discuss. first of all, that really is like, even by their standards, pretty egregious with the disappearing hand in the middle, to do that. how much of an effect in the sort of -- the space of american politics, and the amorphous thing we call public opinion, how much effect does that one network have? >> enormous. first of all, chris, you're smart to call this out, because i think we believe there's no bottom at fox. this was a new and meaningful and dangerous moment. maybe it was a trial balloon. but this is a new front in their war. so yeah, i mean, they basically
pollute up to probably a third of the electorate and then that third of the electorate spills over into, you know, maybe 40, 45% of the country. and it's not just fox. it's fox, it's breitbart, it's sinclair, which is such a sinister local influence. it's epoch times, some of the most powerful outlets on social media. and they're all coordinated. i'll tell you this, having gone through campaigns, we can kind of hang as democrats in campaigns because we raise a lot of money, we spend a lot of money, we have a lot of volunteers, we do a lot of advertising. that goes away after the election and fox and those other megaphones are still there. >> right. >> huge, enormous disadvantage. and it's structurally so unbalanced. >> yeah, that's interesting. and it's also structurally unbalanced because it really is so straight line propaganda. and it's also so sort of
determinedly focused. the biden experience has been interesting to me because i don't think there's like the natural animus towards biden that, say, hillary clinton, right, the fox base hated hillary clinton, they had been cultivated to hate hillary clinton for decades, okay? with biden there was less of that. and i think that it's wild to watch them successfully create rage at the man, essentially on nothing other than like sheer repetition. >> no question about that. if you look at what's happening in rural america, obviously fox has viewers in every part of the country, small, large, you know, communities. i mean, youngkin won some of those counties by margins vladimir putin gets, okay? so what's happening is, every democrat, every democrat, you know, and they turn on manchin if they could, is basically an evil socialist if they're being
nice, and somebody who basically, we embrace pedophilia, we elect the most awful people ever to walk the face of the earth. and that has an effect. there is no -- there is no opening anymore, okay? and what happened today with that clip about satchel paige is, the fox thing is based in reality a little bit, so the big lie is obviously, you know, completely fabricated, but you have the president of the united states and most of one political party embracing it, it's news, as sick as it is. this is completely made up. and i think we have to watch very carefully to see if we're going to see more clips like this because obviously it's the people who watch the network, but then the velocity with which that reaches tens of millions of americans over the course of hours, is unprecedented in american history. >> david plouffe, who has been on the other side of that machine, had it aimed at him, thank you so much. >> thanks, chris.
that is "all in" for the week. "the rachel maddow show" starts now with ali velshi who is in for rachel. good evening, ali. >> chris, good evening you to, have yourself a great weekend. and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. rachel has the night off. she'll be back on monday, however. here is something that is worth watching if you didn't see it today. i'm going to tell you, this is not an exciting piece of tape. in fact it's so bland and normal that if we were living at any other time, we wouldn't bother to play it for you. but today it's worth seeing. this is the republican candidate for governor of new jersey today conceding last week's election which he lost to new jersey's incumbent democratic governor. >> to those who are disappointed that i'm conceding, to those whose faith in our election system is shaken, to those who are angry that i'm not asking for a recount today, let me say this. i've worked every day and night for 22 months to become new jersey's governor. if you think