tv Hallie Jackson Reports MSNBC November 19, 2021 12:00pm-1:00pm PST
the prosecutor released a statement, i won't read the whole thing, but he did say, while we are disappointed with the verdict, it must be respected. julious kim, alana -- i'm so sorry, i wasn't able to get back to you alana odoms. we will get you on the next case that we end up covering. that'll do it for me today. hallie jackson picks up our breaking news coverage right now. >> so we roll on with this rolling coverage here. not guilty on all counts for kyle rittenhouse, as you know. just hearing now from his defense attorney for the last 25 minutes or so. the jury finding kyle rittenhouse should be acquitted on all charges for shooting and killing two people and seriously hurting somebody else during that racial justice demonstrations in kenosha, wisconsin, last year. the defense had said rittenhouse was acting in self-defense and the jury has agreed. we're live in kenosha with the latest along with analysis from our team of legal experts.
and in the nation's capital, president biden talking about this, and affirming the american jury system after this controversial acquittal. watch. >> i stand by what the jury has concluded. the jury system works. >> we're expecting to hear more from him later in the hour as he celebrates the house passing his social spending plan this morning, but his jnt isn't quite over the finish line yet. i'm hallie jackson in washington. but we start with our team in and around kenosha, wisconsin. ellison barber, who is there. i'm also joined by former u.s. attorney, rachel paulus, barbara mcquade, former prosecutor, paul henderson, and brittany pat nick cunningham. ellis, i have to start with you. you're on scene. we just heard from the defense attorney who i assume spoke not too far from where you are now. what do you expect in the next hour or so.
have we heard from everybody that we expect to hear from at this point? >> given that we just got that statement from the prosecutor, i would expect that that might be the extent of what we're going to hear, at least in the immediate future. i mean, you heard in that press conference, the defense being asked about whether or not people would hear from kyle rittenhouse. and he seemed to imply that maybe that would at least not be something happening in the immediate future. i can tell you, once the jury delivered their verdict, not guilty on all five counts, we watched as the girlfriend of the second man, kyle rittenhouse shot and killed that night, anthony huber, made her way out of the courthouse, escorted by police, in front of her, not too far down the ramp, as she was walking was one of his relatives and a great aunt, who had testified in this trial. they were largely quiet, somber, as they made their way out of this area and seemed to just leave. when you were watching that moment in court, as the jury came back, after nearly 24 hours of deliberating, all of the back
and forth, the two requests from the defense for mistrials, one formally filed on monday, asking for a mistrial with prejudice, meaning that it couldn't be tried again, and the request that we saw once the jury went in deliberations, when they had disagreements over the quality of a video that became really central to the prosecution's case, the defense asking a second time for a mistrial without prejudice, meaning that the state could try it again. none of that specifically addressed. then you have the jury come out saying not guilty on all counts. you watched kyle rittenhouse, once they got to not guilty on count three, he seemed to start gasping for air, crying, and then collapsing almost back into a chair as they got to count four, which was the most serious count he faced, of intentional homicide, where he could have ended up with a life sentence. speaking with people on the ground, hallie, it's probably not surprising that this is as divisive here as it is around
the country. for some people, justice was served today. for others, they say this was a miscarriage of justice, and they believe, particularly when they go back and talk about the judge's decision, to not allow the word "victims" to be used as it related to the three people who were shot, they say he had his thumb on the scale and that's a big issue for people here. >> you referenced that statement from the prosecution, and i want to bring this up, again, from prosecutor tom binger, who you heard referenced just a moment ago, saying that the jury representing our community has rendered its verdict in the kyle rittenhouse case. while we are disappointed with the verdict, it must be respected. we are grateful to the members of the jury for their diligent and thoughtful deliberations. the kenosha community has endured much over the past 15 months, and yet we remain resilient and strong. we ask that members of our community continue to express their opinions and feelings about this verdict in a civil and peaceful manner. so disappointed with the verdict, but saying it must be respected. rachel, to you. is that about what you thought we'd see from the prosecution after this acquittal of kyle
rittenhouse? >> yes, and the prosecution has to say that, given the strong emotions this trial has conjured and the number one concern that the government needs to be worried about right now is civil unrest or worse. so we have possibly yet another rittenhouse situation on our hands. and that's the last thing that kenosha needs right now. so urging calm and urging respect for the governmental process in the situation was the right thing to do for the prosecutor. >> ellison, let me go back to you. because, again, we had heard from kyle rittenhouse's attorney, and it was kind of a lot there, right, in those 20, 25 minutes or so. but he talked about the reaction of his client and the conversations that he's been having with kyle rittenhouse, even in those moments since the verdict was announced, at just after 1:00 eastern this afternoon. >> yeah. i mean, i think at some point we'll hopefully be able to play you a little bit more of what
exactly he said. but you just watched their interactions throughout all of this. even yesterday at one point, we saw the lead defendant, the lead defense attorney there, mark richards, come into the courthouse, and when people asked if he had been summoned or anything like that, he said he was stressed and bored to she came to see what was going on. this has been a tense situation for them, obviously, the rittenhouse family pleased with the verdict today. but one thing that was really interesting that he talked about was the decision he made to put kyle rittenhouse on the stand. that was a huge moment in this case and it was something that everyone was in the courtroom, jury, they were all paying so very close attention to that right there. and he said that for them, that was a no-brainer. he said he felt they had no choice but to do that. he said they had actually done some practice rounds with a mock jury to see the reaction and how they received him testifying. and that's part of why they made that decision, hallie. >> and we have that sound,
ellison. let me play it for folks. >> had to put him on. it wasn't a close call. at certain points, we wondered whether we would put him on. we did -- we had a mock jury and we did two different juris, one with him testifying, one without him testifying. it was substantially better when he testified, i mean, to a marked degree. >> barbara, do you agree with that that they had to put him on? >> i think a jury very much wants to hear from a defendant when he claims self-defense. they have been told he has an absolute right not to testify, and he does, but i can't help but think that in a case like that, i feared for my life, i had no chance but to fire, i didn't want to hurt anybody, but i had no choice, i think they want to hear that from the defendant's mouth themselves. so it shouldn't hurt him if he
doesn't, but i think it would help him a lot if he does. and he's a young person, he broke down emotionally on the stand, but i think at least some of the jurors certainly found that compelling, and i think that that probably helped his case quite a bit. >> some of the jurors may have found that compelling, but brittany, i wonder, there was a lot of discussion about rittenhouse's breakdown on the stand. the defense attorney, his defense attorney talked about that, because he was questioned, you know, did you think that was legit? did you see those questions about kyle rittenhouse's tears, basically, and the defense attorney went on at some length about how in his office, when the two of them would talk, rittenhouse was very emotional. that he felt it was an authentic reputation of what rittenhouse was going through. not everybody bought that. >> you know, i don't really actually think whether or not the tears were legitimate or not. the question is whether or not they mattered. there were two lives that were lost and another person that was injured. there was an entire community
that was terrorized. so whether or not the person who pulled that trigger had tears to show afterwards really for me, frankly, is not the point. and it shouldn't be the focus of the conversation, because ultimately, we are at a place where figuring out whether or not somebody is crying legitimately or not distracting us from the kind of terror we're experiencing all across this country. i do believe that the act of picking up an ar-15, getting a ride to kenosha and standing out there to supposedly defend property is all about terrorizing people into operating in a certain social order. and the conclusions that we got from this particular verdict, the actions of this judge, the actions of kyle rittenhouse, and to be clear, the aggregate understanding that we get from these zimmerman style verdicts is two-fold.
one, it is to tell the current and future kyle rittenhouses of the world that they can engage in white vigilanteism and be let off for it, for perpetuating white supremacy. and the rest of us that want to stand in the way of that white supremacy are at risk and we should be warned. that is the only message that i'm getting, tears or not. >> and you make the point, and i know you've made it, brittany, that the only reason why these racial demonstration -- racial justice protests were happening in the first place is because of what happened to jacob blake. >> that's right. i fear the defenders of kyle rittenhouse speaking all the time about the idea of self-defense. but kyle rittenhouse's entitlement to pick up that ar-15 would not have been triggered had the police not once again wantonly shown disregard for black life. the only reason why these protests were happening, the only reason why kyle rittenhouse got in that car was because jacob blake was shot.
in a long run of a series of americans and in particular, americans of color and black americans, who continue to be disrespected and shot and sometimes killed by law enforcement. so we want to keep talking about the symptoms, instead of talking about the cause. because talking about the cause would, of course, put an entire culture of white supremacy, that white privilege is derived from on trial, and frankly, that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. they would much rather stand up against kyle rittenhouse than stand against the things that make them uncomfortable. >> i need to read something that just popped in, a statement, or some news out of the white house from our white house team. simply to say that the white house has been in touch with the wisconsin governor's office and state officials throughout the week and as recently as today in anticipation of the potential for protests in kenosha. this is according to a white house official. ellison, if we still have you, just on this point, as we're hearing now from the white house, we heard a little bit as we played at the top of the show from president biden, saying very briefly that he respects the jury system. we also heard the defense attorney for kyle rittenhouse
prior to that blast, frankly, president biden for some of his comments that he's made about the trial. ellison, listen, things look pretty okay there, right? but let's not overstate where we are. i know the wisconsin governor has sent hundreds of national guard troops to the area just in case things got tense. but talk about the atmosphere? >> so the governor of the state put some 500 members of the national guard on standby outside kenosha in the event that any local authorities ask for any kind of assistance. having listened to local police, they've been very clear in saying that they always have nerves, apprehensions, there's the potential for something to go wrong, but as of yesterday, the sheriff was saying that he had no sort of credible intelligence or evidence that they felt like they were going to have a problem with the verdict. that being said, just this last week, speaking with people who live in kenosha, when we talk to people about this trial and the verdict, almost everyone would
tell us that they felt nervous about it, nervous that there was the potential for some sort of violence regardless of the outcome and because of what they went through back in august of 2020, they didn't want to see that type of evening take place again. two people lost their lives in that night of august 2020. another man no longer has part of his arm after being shot with an ar-15. they went through a lot here, all across the board. and all of that is just that one night. you also have everything that happened with jacob blake. so this is a community that has experienced a lot. and so there were nerves of quite tension, but everyone here who has come out to protest, regardless of what side they are on, actually today have been very calm. we've seen shea cobb blake's uncle, justin blake out here almost every day. every day. even when zwrufs him and one other person, just peacefully protesting. it comes as soon as the jury
comes, he leaves when they leave. and that is what we have seen so far here today. people have been disagreeing, having some conversation, some choice language back and forth. strong emotions. but nothing that would indicate that there could be a potential at this point for anything dangerous. hallie? >> as we look at the sort of aftermath now of this acquittal. and listen, let's be clear. we haven't heard yet from people in the jury, as far as i know. none of the jurors have decided to speak to cameras, as far as we know or speak to the media about what was going on inside of these deliberations. but they lasted a fair amount of time. we're in now, i think, day four. more than 24 hours of actual deliberation time, if you will. and one of the things that caught a lot of people's attention over the course of this trial was some of the tension, some of the flare-ups that happened between the judge and the prosecution in this case. so rachel, i wonder, as you watch this, and in light of what we now know is an acquittal on all five counts, how do you see
those interactions as perhaps having affected the jury, if at all? >> well, a number of those interactions happened outside the presence of the jury, but to the extent that the jury was witnessing it, it certainly did not help the prosecution. and i think the judge made clear his views on the case, including by dismissing two charges in a way that could have signaled to the jury. now, we know from the questions that the jury asked, that themp very focused on self-defense in this case. so i think, actually, the star player was not necessarily the judge, but kyle rittenhouse himself when he took the stand to describe what he believed was happening in his own words. >> there was also another moment that seems like it was, again, in light of what we now know is this acquittal, potentially pivotal here, as it relates to the self-defense argument that the defense was trying to make. and that is when giage grosskreutz, who had been hurt
or shot by kyle rittenhouse, took the stand. and under cross-examination, there was this moment. and i want to play it and paul, i want to talk to you about what you see about its potential significance. >> when you were standing three to five feet from him with your arms up in the air, he never fired, right? >> correct. >> it wasn't until you pointed your gun at him, advanced on him, with your gun -- now your hands down pointed at him, that he fired, right? >> correct. >> and observerser saw that as potentially bolstering the case for the defense here. do you think that was a moment that perhaps the jury sort of latched on to? >> 100%. that was a linchpin. and i think you saw it, if you panned the crowd and looked out youb saw the da team lower their head. you saw them, oh, that wasn't a great moment, that was a terrible moment. and let's just be clear. this case was very definitely
for the prosecution from day one. again, this is a courtroom, and so it's hard to use these verdicts either as a gauge and/or a tool when we're talking about social justice movements and the imperfect reflections we get from these verdicts, because they're so case specific. and in this case, the prosecutions, even their own witnesses were very challenging from the beginning, and the facts were what the facts were. and that's before we start analyzing and unpacking the implications from this case, from the defendant and his behavior. but just their case alone and putting on and pursuing a case was challenging. and we saw throughout the preparation for this case, from the prosecution, even some of their own witnesses that they had planned to call ended up flipping and testifying and getting testimony and statements that supported and helped the defense's approach in this case. but that was the moment that i think we all leaned in to
recognize this is not good for this singular survivor of these shootings, to be articulating that even he, with his arm blown off, and the injury that he had, when he made the admission that he had raised the gun, and the gun was raised before he was shot. the prosecution tried to come back and clarify in closing, but i think the damage had been done, and the dye had been cast, and that's before we start looking at the influence that the judge had throughout the entirety of this case, against the prosecution, either not liking the charges or not likely the lawyers or in my belief, both that really kind of led us to this outcome that was predicted, i think, by a lot of people separate from the fact of how difficult the lawyer's case from prosecution was from the very beginning based on the fact. >> so you hear the prosecutor say that the judge is a fair judge here. do you think that's right, or
would you dispute that? >> i would push back on that and i think there are a number of objective things that we saw throughout the trial that are very clear that indicated that the judge wasn't as objective as i think the prosecution wanted them to be. before we start looking at the statements that the judge made, the rulings that this judge made about what was going to be allowed into this case, because we didn't get to hear the backgrounds about the defendants in this case or the defendant's friends in this case that would have been relevant, the restrictions that came in from the inlimiae rules, about now being able to refer to any of the people who were shot as victims, that's a huge blow. and that's before we get to the dismissal in how the dismissal came to be and when the dismissal was executed, which was right before closing arguments. these are all devastating rulings. but beyond the rulings, we can look at the statements that the
judge was making throughout the trial, when he was saying and indicating that the prosecution had overstepped the boundaries of his ruling, basically handing a mistrial to the defense attorneys, if and when they wanted to use it, regardless of what the verdict was going to be. and that's before we look at the behaviors that i believe were appropriate for a judicial officer. the scowling throughout the time that the prosecution was talking about. the tone and the yelling at prosecution. the prosecution was excoriated during this trial. and if you have any doubt as to whether or not the judge had an opinion or an influence in this case, you can look at the prosecution's closing argument and actually watch behind the prosecutor the, the judge was making an entire cup coffee and drinking it while not paying attention to the argument. the judge was having an entire conversation with his clerk while not paying attention to the prosecution. the judge was looking at his computer and doing stuff on his computer while not paying
attention to the prosecutor during the closing argument. all of these are subjective and intransigent problem that judges could be allowed to do, but send clear messages to the jury about their feelings about the case. i think they damaged and hurt the prosecution's ability to put in a fair case. separate from the fact that i think that the prosecution had a tough case to begin with. and this is before we even start talking about that whole tumbler thing, that they allowed the defendant to pick and choose from. i've never seen interactions like that from someone that has been charged with murder, interacting with the judge and his staff in the middle of a trial. i just -- there's so many things that were here -- i don't think we can discount the influence or the presence of the judge's study or approach and how he executed this trial with this prosecution and with this case. >> as always, to all of you, if you want to jump in because you hear something you want to talk about, let me know. but i do want to ask, and maybe
i'll direct this to barbara here. the question has come about whether there might be other recourse, i guess might be the word for kyle rittenhouse, whether there might be lawsuits filed on his behalf, against him. how does that play out at this point moving forward? >> i think we could very well see lawsuits brought by the victim, all the victims here who are wrongful death or personal injury. these would be tort actions for civil liability. just as we saw in the o.j. simpson case, where a jury wasn't able to convict him of criminal conduct, the burden is on the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and including proving he was not acting in self-defense, a very steep uphill climb for the prosecution in any case. instead, the standard in a civil case is simply preponderance of the evidence. i think it seems quite likely that we would see the estates of
those who are deceased and perhaps those who are injured in the attack also filing civil lawsuits against kyle rittenhouse. i don't think his time in court is over just yet. >> we are going to take a quick break. when we come back, we want to talk a little bit more about this national conversation that we're having. and this is, paul, as you addressed, as you got into as well, the idea that this is, in many ways, was seen as a litmus test for folks around the country. i want to thank all of you, although none of you are going anywhere. we'll sneak in a quick break, and the latest from the white house on this topic as reporting keeps coming in from our white house team. up next. eps coming in from our e house team up next. ♪ i see trees of green ♪ ♪ red roses too ♪ ♪ i see them bloom ♪
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we're back now with more of our breaking coverage on the verdict, the acquittal in the kyle rittenhouse murder trial. brittany, i'm having trouble with your name. barbara mcquade are also back with me too. i think i'm overcaffeinated at this point. listen, we were talking about where we are at this moment, as it relates to the conversation in this country that was sparked by what happened in kenosha. and now this acquittal in the kyle rittenhouse trial. this case was always political, but it seems like in the last several months, it became sort
of this second amendment, liberal versus conservative litmus test here. and i wonder the messages that people on both ends of that spectrum will draw from this verdict. paul, let me start with you. i would love to hear your thoughts on that. >> so there's no question, and as i said before, these trials are very difficult litmus tests for what's going on in terms of social justice and reforms, because they are so case specific. but there is no question that this verdict does push the boundaries of what will be challenged in this case. and the underlying legal issues and political issues that underlie this case, as well. which is why this case garnered so much attention. so without a doubt, this case has expanded the boundaries of vigilanteism. this case has expanded the boundaries of stand your ground. it's expanded the boundaries of defense of properties. and that's before we start looking at the issues of race. and we started talking about this earlier, because it's not
ironic that we are having a conversation about what the state's response is going to be from this verdict, and the entire verdict and case itself is centered around protest rallies and gatherings, as well. and those have been the underlying conversations through the entirety of the trial, which i think is absolutely relevant here. my question, which i think is a fair one is, what happens now when another person comes to a protest and feels scared? and i want to pose the question of, what is that result, if it is a black person, a black youth with an illegal gun that comes to a rally, a protest, say, and then they feel scared and it ends up in a shooting, would we have these same results? i think these are valid questions based on this result, because i always like to look at these lens as we're talking about cases like this and we're talking about reforms and we're talking about accountability, how do we overlay that with a lens of race to ask these exact
same questions, to make sure that we're coming towards or moving towards race-neutral outcomes. i don't know that this case did that. and again, the facts that this case were challenging to begin with, but i think there are fair questions that we all should be asking ourselves to address issues, including the legal issued that i raised from a lens of race. and that's the only way we'll get to a race-neutral position of safety and justice. >> brittany, your thoughts. >> we can ask the question if the it's the right question to ask. yet in so many ways we a already know the answers. we know what happens to black mothers, who, for instance, are trying to defend their children in their home and how hypocritely the stand your ground laws apply to them as opposed to somebody who is white. i believe in patterns, maya angelou said, when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. and america and this criminal
legal system have been showing us who and what it is for generations now. black people continuously know this country better than it knows itself. why? because we suffer disproportionately from its inequities and from its systems. so what can i tell you, as a 37-year-old black woman in this country. i can tell you that my colleagues and elders and peers have been dealing with the same criminal justice system for generations. we saw similar outcomes with emmett till. we've seen similar outcomes with lynch mobs. there is a distinct pattern in this country and in this criminal legal system that will allow, protect, and defend the in particular white men who will defend white supremacy and the culture of white supremacy that permeates this entire country. so we cannot simply allow ourselves rest on the idea that this is a single case and a particular case, because there is a distinct pattern in this country when it comes to these
courtrooms. and let's be clear, this judge, as paul pointed out earlier, was brazen in the way that he put his thumb on this scale. he rubbed our noses in the fact that he could do whatever he wanted and basically dared us to do anything about it. he wanted us to be very clear that he would stop at nothing to defend this blueprint more white supremacist vigilanteism and he was going to make sure that we would to just throw our hands up in disgust, because he was going to get the verdict that he wanted before it ever even got to the jurors. this playbook is very clear. there's a blueprint, a playbook now that has been reemphasized by the courts, by this judge, and certainly by kyle rittenhouse. and again, like i said earlier, there's a clear warning here. that there are certain white men who are not letting their country go without a fight. and anybody who stands in their way is at risk. and they are allowed to come into a protest environment with an ar-15. they are allowed in the case of ahmaud arbery to chase somebody down who they don't believe
belongs in their neighborhood. they're allowed to shoot people in their own homes. they're allowed to shoot people when they're sleeping. as long as they maintain a social order that benefits them, the rest of us are just supposed to stay in line and deal with it. that's what we continue to hear, not just from this case, but from the pattern of american jurisprudence and the outcomes that we see from similar cases. >> i want to hold that thought, because i want to come back to it, brittany, but i've got to go to somebody else to bring into this conversation, that's monica alba at the white house. in the last couple of minutes here, as we've been on the air, we've gotten a statement now from president biden. what's he saying? >> yes, hallie, we had heard already the president's first reaction to the verdict earlier when he returned to the white house after having spent about five hours at walter reed earlier today to get his routine physical and medical examination. and he gave a very brief response to reporters who asked him to weigh in. and he says he does believe in
the jury system in this country, that the jury system works, and that he wasn't going to offer more at the time. but now we are getting a statement from him which i will read in part. he says, while the verdict in kenosha will leave many americans feeling angry and concerned, myself included, we must acknowledge that the jury has spoken. i ran on a promise to bring americans together because i believe that what unites us is far greater than what divides us. i know that we're not going to heal our country's wounds overnight, but i remain steadfast many my commitment to do everything in my power to ensure that every american is treated equally, with fairness and dignity under the law. next, what the president is talking about what we may see unfold in kenosha and he is calling for peaceful protests. he said, i urge everyone to express their views peacefully, consistent with the rule of law. violence and destruction of property have no place in our democracy. we know that the white house and federal authorities have been in touch with both state officials, local county officials there on
the ground in wisconsin throughout the week in anticipation of this verdict. they are prepared to offer their support should it be needed. but the overarching call from the white house and the president is for any response to be peaceful. it's a little bit of an odd afternoon here at the white house, hallie, because the president is also currently engaging in the turkey pardon, traditional before the thanksgiving holiday. it's possible he might offer a little bit more reaction to this there though. that would be a bit of an unusual setting, given he's literally about to pardon either peanut butter or jelly, the turkey. that's why the white house has put out this paper statement, to encourage this. and he did speak upon it briefly, although it's unclear whether he'll have more to say as we see what does unfold there on the streets of kenosha, hallie. >> monica alba, thank you. obviously, not a natural juxtaposition for the president with the news that is breaking and unfolding here this
afternoon. so bottom line, the president is angry and concerned, but also acknowledging that you have to respect what the jury has decided here. rachel, let me go to you on this. >> well, the president did run on a banner to unite, but unite doesn't mean that you silence the people with whom you disagree. i would like to hear our leadership talk about systemic injustice, systemic racism, criminal justice reform, and some of the other issues that so many of our politicians ran on and promised to deliver change on. and so what we see in this case, it's important that you're talking about context, because there are so many state laws and some federal laws that need to be looked at when we talk about how vigilantes are using self-defense in a way that's really unprecedented. and we could talk more about what's unique about wisconsin's law, that allows a person who comes to a fight, who initiates
aggression, who starts a deadly encounter to still claim self-defense, or we could talk about florida's stand your ground law, and the way in which that historically has protected aggressors, sometimes -- i mean, often, white aggressors against black victims. or we could talk about what's happening in georgia, with the citizen's arrest law and how that has been misused and abused. and the need, really, for nationwide reform in how we encourage people to handle disputes and not take the law into their own hands, not arm themselves and rush to battle, and not do what we're telling people to do right now, which is stay calm, call the police, trust law enforcement. that seems to -- that message seems to have been missed, as well as a message for reform. >> thank you all so much for
being here with us, as this news has developed throughout the day. obviously, big news. we'll have a whole lot more of it throughout the day on msnbc and on nbc nightly news. we have breaking news to get to on covid boosters this hour, with that cdc panel just meeting, just voting. we'll tell you about it right after the break. voting we'll tell you about it right after the break. (vo) the more we do with our phones, the more network quality and reliability matter. and only verizon has been the most awarded for network quality 27 times in a row. that means the best experience with calls, texts and data usage of any major carrier, according to customers. there's only one best network. the only one ranked #1 in reliability 16 times in a row. we are building 5g right.
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pfizer or moderna vaccines. again, i'm going to say, it's pfizer or moderna. this is after the same panels did not make this recommendation a couple of months ago in september, saying that third shots should only be for the elderly and people who are immunocompromised. so this door opens wider for boosters. by the way, the people who got the j&j vaccine, you've had the go ahead for boosters for a little while now. i want to bring in uche blackstock, the founder and ceo of advancing health equity. good to see you. good afternoon this news coming out, not unexpected, but still significant, fair? >> fair. fair. not unexpected, and it was essentially a fait accompli, because there were so many states that had already started expanding access to boosters for their residents. there were even cities like my own city, new york city, and i think the initial booster guidelines while technically evidence-based, were just too confusing for most people. i think these new guidelines,
think 8 and older are eligible for the boosters makes it significantly less confusing for the public. >> so are they saying that you can get it, or that you should get it? >> so that's the thing. so essentially, they're saying that -- they actually said people 50 and older should get boosted. the evidence that we're seeing, especially out in israel that for older adults, that these boosters are most effective at preventing the most severe outcomes. i would say for younger adults or those with underlying medical problems, they don't have to rush to get boosted, but they may get boosted, especially if they're outside of that six-month timeline from their last shot. and so, you know, something to think about, and i think that was sort of the confusion for the younger population, there's that concern about waning immunity against infection. for the older population, it's waning immunity against the most severe outcomes of covid-19. >> and you're getting to another question that i had for you, which is is that if you're a
healthy adult, no underlying medical conditions, no chance that you're immunocompromised, you've already been vaccinated, it's been, let's say, seven months, would you recommend to your patients that they should go ahead and get the booster just to be safe? >> yeah, that was me today. >> congratulations! >> i wouldn't say i'm young, i'm 44, but i'm a healthy adult and i just got boosted because i think what we're seeing is an increase in breakthrough infections, and that is related to the waning immunity against infection. and if that keeps on happening, we're going to see probably more breakthrough infections contributing to increase in cases and spread. and we don't want that to happen. i think it's incredibly important that the people who are fully vaccinated get boosted, but we should all continue to focus on getting the unvaccinated, the first doses of the vaccine. i mean, that is also incredibly important, because they are driving most of the cases. >> when you look at where we are
in this country right now, there's been this talk about the potential for a winter surge. the idea that we may be on the sort of beginning of this winter wave of covid, when you look at, for example, people getting ready to travel, see family for the holidays, the expectations for a surge after that. how important are these booster shots to try to push that wave back, to try to stem that tide, if you will? >> right. well, i think we're definitely going to see a surge, because we see what's happening in europe and what happens in europe eventually happens here in a few weeks to months. i think fully vaccinated people should get boosters. that's another layer of very important, you know, mitigation. but again, i think the drive should also be on those who are unvaccinated to encourage the first-time vaccination. >> well, you talking about europe and what's happening there. we know austria is now getting ready to be -- they're in essentially a lockdown state. there are real concerns about the virus spreading in europe and the numbers that we're seeing there.
we've touched on it. what's the thinking here? what is your level of concern for what we're seeing overseas? >> i'm very concerned, because a lot of those countries have higher vaccination rates than the u.s. i believe austria has a vaccination rate of about 65%, and we're at 58%. so if, those places are seeing significant surges and they're more highly vaccinated than we are, we're going to see a surge. that's why it's so important that we should reconsider. should we reconsider indoor mask mandates, reconsider capacity restrictions in order to blunt this next surge? we have about a thousand people dying a day of covid-19. and if the surge worsens, these numbers will inevitably worsen. what are we going to do policy wise to prevent that from happening? >> i think people hear you say that and they think -- i live, for example, with dr. blackstock here in washington and d.c. is getting ready to lift its mask mandate in certain indoor public space. >> i know. >> which is the opposite of what
you think maybe we should be thinking about as we head into the winter. >> absolutely. respectfully, to the mayor down there, i think that is not a great idea. to lift a mask mandate as we see a surge -- as we see the beginning of a surge, as there's colder weather, as people are socializing indoors, as we're approaching the holidays, i respectfully think that is unwise. and i think inevitably, we'll see an increase in case because of that. >> dr. uche blackstock, thank you for being with us and for your professional perspective on all of this and for the developing news that is happening just in the last couple of minutes in washington, d.c. we'll take you back to kenosha, wisconsin, live after the break and some new reaction to the acquittal of kyle rittenhouse. that's coming up in just a minute. entthouse. that's coming up in just a minute everyday congestion with vicks sinex saline. for fast drug free relief vicks sinex. instantly clear everyday congestion. and try vicks sinex children's saline. safe and gentle relief for children's noses.
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reaction? tell us about it. >> when the verdict came down, we all watched kyle rittenhouse's reaction inside. outside, you could almost immediately hear car horns, people driving by honking their horn, saying free kyle. another group of people who were very disappointed, who believe there was a miscarriage of justice here, that this trial was in their view unfair from the beginning. >> how many african american people do you see getting away with murder. >> i am here to celebrate kyle's innocence and the affirmation of the thousand-year-old right of self-defense. >> we just made victim ill anteeism sport killing. we just made that --
vigilanteism, sport killing, we just made that legal. >> i have heard a lot of people say they feel like this judge had, in their view, put his finger on the scale. we talk about that moment, initially, his decision which local reporters they say this judge, bruce schroeder has had a rule of not allowing the word "victim" to be used in a case related to homicide. a lot of that has had a huge impact here. there were other moments of concerns. off-color comments when the jury was not in. but at moments when there was a lot of tension when the prosecution was cross-examining kyle rittenhouse, and there were two different moments when the judge admonished him. at one point when the prosecutor seemed to allude to and touch on video evidence that the judge hadn't admitted into court.
also when he had brought up rittenhouse's post-arrest silence. they took the jury out of the room, and there was a discussion about not wanting the jury to hear the yelling back and forth. people who don't agree with this verdict look at all of that, they feel there were a lot of things around the edges of the trial they feel may have had some influence. the other thing they will bring up and are frustrated with was the judge's last-minute decision to dismiss the misdemeanor charge of illegal possession of a weapon by a minor. it was dismissed over a technicality, where they said it was only for a short barrelled gun. kyle's was longer barrel, and does not apply. i heard from multiple people today that that is a moment,
where if the person pulling the trigger had been black, they wouldn't have been acquitted. they see that as a pivotal moment of what they believe was a misstep by this judge here. >> allison barber, appreciate you being out there and reporting for us live from kenosha, wisconsin on a day like today. thank you for joining us. and thanks to all of you for joining us for this hour of hallee jackon reports right here on msnbc. as always, we will have highlights from the show, new reporting up on our twitter page. we will see you back here, same time, same place, on monday. before then, catch me on 5:00 tonight, and every week knight, 5:00 eastern on msnbc news now, our streaming show debuted this week. we will have more on the rittenhouse trial on that coming up don't. for now, more coverage coming up here on msnbc, when "deadline: white house" picks up after the break. when "deadline: white house" picks up after the break. hi mr. charles. we made you dinner. aww, thank you.
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it's 4:00 in new york. it was one of the most charged and polarizing criminal trials in recent history a trial that has become a major flash point in our divided country has come to an end. kyle rittenhouse, who shot three people, two of them fatally during unrest in kenosha, wisconsin in august of 2020 has been found not guilty on all counts. the verdict came after nearly 24