tv The Beat With Ari Melber MSNBC November 23, 2021 3:00pm-4:01pm PST
thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we're grateful. ari melber starts right now. >> i am ari melber. tonight dr. anthony fauci joins us live on "the beat." the latest on the covid numbers, booster shots and how the u.s. should plan for the holiday season. that's coming up. our top sorry is breaking news in the house insurrection probe. congress issuing new subpoenas in the january 6th investigation, the proud boys, a group present at the rally, a group shouted out by president trump to stand by.
about 25 proud boys have been indicted charged for actions during the deadly attack, including the group's leader henry tarrio. investigators are eyes his involvement and plotting and potential planning of the attack that would occur within days of that arrest. congress subpoenaing the oath keepers, 18 members of that group were involved in the insurrection. includes a subpoena for the group leader elmer stewart robes. the goal is to get facts from those planning the attack and their information about the violence itself, as well as the, quote, preparation leading up to the violent attack. all together there were 50 militia members and over 700 people have been indicted for crimes charged on january 6th. that is a serious legal process
that continues in the court. we're seeing why this is the top story in these latest developments. there's something else, a turn by the government to look at the preparation and the plotting and the possible leadership of what was we now know this violent coup attempt to end democracy. now, you have this investigative effort. it's trying to go up the ladder to the top people who allegedly planned or plotted or funded this coordinated operation. some of them are acting guilty like steve bannon's defiance. some have to make their next move like roger stone and alex jones. some are embroil for leading militia groups while under indictment, groups embattled for what their members did, what they did on tape and there's
ongoing questions about how these plans were in the works, how many people above the line of just those combatants that day were plotting for the type of coup. i want to get right to our experts. professor melissa murray, there's a distinction between people who carried something out and those who may have otherwise before involved at a higher level. there's more than one legal track here. what us through what you see congress eyeing here as they broaden this net. >> i think the net broadening is interesting here. it reminds me of what you see in organized crime cases where in order to get the head of the fish you have to go through the entire organization and hoping that these people who are more peripheral to the organization will flip, provide information
about what is going on and who is at the head of this. part of what's going on and the expansion of the probe to some of these ancillary individuals is part of trying to get a better sense of what happened and to see who up the chain of command is really responsible here. >> when you look at these groups, emily, there are people who follow this for a living. there are people who hear about things and everyone going on with their lives. some of these groups have been accused of rather serious things. in all candor they might not have the name resignation of the kkk or other groups. they were on the president's minds during the debate. there were other people around trump who were aware of the muscle or thuggery. here was donald trump in the debates. >> proud boys, stand back and
stand by. i'll tell you what -- i'll tell you what somebody has to do something about antifa and the left. this is not a right wing problem. >> they were more than standing by. where do you see these groups fitting into this landscape, if you will, emily, and what do you say to folks who think i haven't heard much about them for that long? >> well, i think there is a network on the right, same as there is a network on the left, and they play different roles. these groups were phone for having members who saw themselves as part of a militia. when president trump referred to the proud boys, it seemed like a call out to people who are not necessarily in favor of diversifying america or even equal rights for all americans in the eyes of all a lot of people would interpret that phrase. these groups have that role to
play. we saw that on january 6th. what will be interesting is what records come out of these subpoenas. will we be able to see the people who were doing the planning? don't know how much planning there was. assuming there was some planning going on, will we be able to tell from communications going back and forth who played what role. what melissa referred to, do you have people who are implicated in that evidence then flip on the people who were the leaders if those leaders are preserved from being in communications themselves? >> as you mention, it's the tactical aspect and it's whether the rest of america -- we have a legal process, but we have a public accountability of what citizens want to do to understand this. if somebody walks around fresh from an isis training camp with an isis flag and they say i'm here to overthrow the u.s. government, i think people take that literally.
if they're armed, they're edging towards a crime. i want to be clear with viewers, these people were doing that. it didn't happen to be a foreign flag. they were talking that way as domestic terrorists, domestic would be killers. this is how they talk. this mr. tarrio who was subpoenaed today talking about his goal to overthrow the government. this was in february. >> you have access to phones? >> a couple times when i went to go see him, i social media posted, things like that. right now is the time go ahead and overthrow the government by becoming the new government and running for office. >> so how do you draw the line there, emily, between what everyone has the right to do which is talk or run for office and these very direct
implications of overthrowing the government in concert with what doj says were plots and what happened january 6th? where do we draw this line? >> everyone has a free speech right to overthrow the government. that's important. when you're talking about running for office and staying within the guardrails of democracy, that's not the rhetoric you use. you want to separate yourself from people who aren't abiding by the rules of running for election. i think what you see there from tarrio is a flirting with that very line. >> professor? >> again, i think it's important to emphasize this is domestic terrorism. it's not domestic
revolutionaryism. the line here is not running for office for the purpose of taking over the government through lawful mean, but rather what we saw on january 6th. it's to install what's basically a dictator ahead of it instead of a duly elected head of state. >> that goes to context. is it some fiery rally speech or is it a rally that turned into an insurrection? as for the widening net, i want to play some of the other perspective, the republican pushback from mark meadows who was the number one trump official, his chief of staff. he's saying the way it's going it looks more like a fishing expedition. take a listen. >> i read about them subpoenaing roger stone and alex jones and, you know, i can tell you that i'm not aware of anybody in the white house that had conversations with either one of those individuals. but it just seems like they're
just determined to pull out the phone book and subpoena as many people as they possibly can in hopes that they find a narrative that will stick politically. >> emily, give us your view of that point. on the one hand we reported the props roger stone has, including being convicted of these crimes of lying. that's one thing. in fairness to mr. meadows' point roger stone is someone who spent years lying to make his role seem bigger. when you get to the end of the stories, he wasn't the guy in every meeting. he was much more of the guy pretending all the way. i'm curious what you think. >> i mean, it's possible.
the government is supposed to have evidence to support these subpoenas. this is also what you say when i couldn't ire trying to discredit an investigation and there's not going to be a political price to pay if you're wrong. the proof will be in what the evidence shows. the whole point of issuing a subpoena to roger stone is to find out what is on paper in terms of his involvement and the government should have some more information about that. i would say we'll have to see. >> that would be of course the valid process. if some of this goes his way from the evidence or whatever, then maybe it clears some of these individuals by cooperating with, again, a bipartisan probe. i want to thank emily and melissa for kicking this off. we have a lot coing up. there's a new guilty verdict for the charlottesville neo nazis.
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dr. fauci, let's start where we are now everyone preparing for thanksgiving. here's where we were a year ago. >> we're experiencing an incredible surge. >> we're more than double where we were back in may. >> we're going to have a very tough winter. >> their last dying words are this can't be happening. it's not real. >> our patients are sicker. this unit is now fully icu. >> how does that compare to now and what are you advising people do or don't do in the holiday season? >> well, ari, the big difference between what you just showed and where we are right now is the whole issues of vaccinations. right now we're in the middle of
an upsurge in cases. we were down to 40, 50,000 after the summer surge. now if you look at the last few weeks, it's gone to 60, 70, 80 and now up to 100,000 a day. a lot of it, not all, is driven by people who are not vaccinated who are vulnerable to infection. what we have are vaccinations of substantial proportion, particularly among the elderly. 80 plus percent of the elderly are fully vaccinated. that's good in the sense of being able to protect them. the issue is we now have a couple moving targets. the one that's problematic is we have about 60 million people in this country who are adults who are eligible to be vaccinated who have not gotten vaccinated. now that we know that after a period of several months, even when you're vaccinated, the
immunity wanes somewhat, more significantly among the elderly and those who may not have a very good immune system. it wanes, which means we have the opportunity now to get boostered. there's a lot of things different. we have vaccinations. we have people who don't want to get vaccinated, which is unfortunate. we now have boosters. if we can do that, we can be more safe than last year. >> when you look at kids under 11, 10% vaccination rate. where do you want that to be? >> i want the overwhelming population of children to be vaccinated. we know it's safe. there was a feeling they don't get infected as much as adults. they do. it is true in general,
statistically, they do not get as severely ill for the most parts as adults do. we have plenty of children in that age group who get seriously ill. there are about 2 million have been infected. about 8,300 required hospitalization. it is not a trivial issue with children. they do spread it. most of them -- not most, half are without symptoms. they can spread infection and add to the dynamics of the outbreak. that's why it's important to get those children vaccinated. >> you're talking about the payoffs here and it's complicated. i wanted to run by you -- we did this when you weren't here. you might as well have the benefit to respond. you, other medical experts and the current president have given outcomes that have not come to fruition where we thought we
would be further along. we have some video. take a look. >> i think he now is destructive. i think he's dishonest. >> he decided to unilaterally end christmas. >> we want to put fauci in an orange jumpsuit. >> in any reasonable society, fauci would be gone. >> getting back to normality gradually getting people back to work, i believe that's likely going to start in a few months as we get into march and april. >> by july 4th there's a good chance you, your family and friends will be able to get together in your backyard. >> our tape played some of the republicans. that's an other topic, sir. what do you say to people -- i think you can understand this -- people who say i heard president biden and dr. fauci say we would be done by now and we're not?
what do you say to that? >> ari, there was never any guarantee of that. people ask you what can you anticipate or project. no one ever -- i never said we would definitely be. there's a lot of moving targets. along came the delta variant and that threw everyone for a loop. the thing we've got to understand is that, when you're dealing with a moving target and people ask you for your best projection, as long as that target a moving, you're never going to be able to give a definitive answer. would you have liked to have said i don't have any idea what's going to happen? then people would have minds about that too. when you're dealing with a situation where you do not know, but you can make a best estimate -- the one thing i can say for sure is if we don't get the majority of the people who are not vaccinated right now, if we don't get them vaccinated, things are going to be much worse. right now we have to do the best that we can.
the facts evolve. science evolves. when that evolve, you've got to keep your recommendations associated with the facts as you know it at the time. it's nothing but a gotcha when you say what did you say a few months ago when you didn't know what was going on. we didn't anticipate the delta variant would be as devastating as it is. that's when we said the things you showed that i and president biden said. >> yeah. as for you saying the facts evolve, people do want to know where this thing came from. president biden also talked about an intelligence process for that. there's been some information. intelligence agencies disagree which sometimes happens. the fbi believes in the theory this came from a lab in china. is the fbi right or wrong in your view and will we ever get to the bottom of this? >> ari, if you look at the viral
gists, not the people who want to criticize this. like at the viral gists who know about vierlg. they tell you it's much more likely this was a natural evolution from an animal, likely a bat to another intermediate host to a human. until you know for sure you have to leave open all pockets. that's where something like the lab leak type of a hypothesis comes about. you can't rule it out, but if you look at the evidence, namely the historical and other evidence, it's more likely one than the other. it's more likely it's a natural outbreak from an animal, although we must keep all possibilities open. >> right. there's a lot of evidence that mandates are working. in florida, under governor desantis' policies some types of mandates are prevented or off
the table, which has the headline about disney world having to halt the vaccine requirement entirely. is your view that is acceptable policy or does that raise the risk of illness and deaths in florida? >> well, we do know that mandates, let's call them requirements, mandate has a special tinge to it, that requirements work. if you look at united airlines, about 99% of their employees are vaccinated. tyson food, houston methodist medical system, they do work. we know from studies that masks work. they're not 100%, but they work in preventing infection. we're in the middle of an unprecedented pandemic that has taken the lives of over 770,000 americans. anything that gets in the way of containing that, i think we
better think twice before pushing it. we would love to have a situation where you don't have requirements, where people would see why it's so important, not only to protect themselves and their families, but to fulfill their societal responsibility to get us out of this historic outbreak. that's the reason why you have vaccine requirements. >> yeah. dr. fauci, i want to do one more round of questions for you about safety protocols. we have our shortest break, 60 seconds. we'll be back in one minute. we'll be back in one minute. sharp, stabbing pains, or an intense burning sensation. what is this nightmare? it's how some people describe... shingles. a painful, blistering rash that could interrupt your life for weeks. forget social events and weekend getaways. if you've had chickenpox, the virus that causes shingles is already inside of you. if you're 50 years or older ask your doctor
>> sure. i'll give you a question later too. >> that's only fair. i'm going to now. you'll go at the end. if you're vaccinated, do you need a mask outside? >> no, if you're outside and vaccinated and not in a grossly congregated session, you don't need a mask outside. >> a small group of vaccinated people inside, do you need a mask? >> no. >> if you're unvaccinated inside? >> wear a mask. if you're with people. if you're alone inside, you don't need to wear a mask. >> if you finished your vaccination, you should get a booster when? >> within six months or more from the time you got your
original vaccination regimen. if it is an mrna and two months or longer if it's a j&j. >> if you're not vaccinated and you get a negative covid test, are you good for indoor gatherings? >> you know, it depends. if you have a pcr test and you're talking about worrying about infecting others, if you're negative and you go indoors, you have a risk of getting infected if there are people there infected and not wearing masks. that's the reason why whatever your situation is, you should be wearing a mask with indoor congregate settings when you don't know the vaccination status of the people that you're congregating with indoors. >> if you want to see people who are in a higher covid or hot spot area and you're vaccinated, are you good to go travel there? >> you know, nothing is 100% risk free, ari.
sure, travel increases the risk of getting infected. if you're careful at the airport, you wear a mask in the congregate setting of the airport. on an airplane it's certain you have to wear a mask. we recommend you get vaccinated. if you don't know the status of the people that you're dealing with if an indoor setting, wear a mask. >> finally, and then i'll take your question if you had it, we always track what's going on out there in the culture. online people have so many reactions to you. i'm not going to play the misinformation. here's a mix on tiktok. people who think you're great and people who are mad at democrats for all the thanksgivingrestrictions. >> this man, this legend
dr. anthony fauci. for us doctors he's beyonce, michael jordan, oprah. >> shoot video chat this year because of covid. i'm so done with democrats. >> every time i think this thing is over dr. fauci shows up. >> we'll give you the last word of any thoughts how you're playing across the internet and then if you had a question, go ahead. >> well, ari, i'm not in it for a popularity contest. i have devoted my entire professional career to try and safeguard and preserve the health and lives of the american people. as an infectious disease doctors who deals with outbreaks, that gets extended to the rest of the world. that's what i world. the praise or the arrows and slings are irrelevant. i do what science drives you to
do. that's what i do. i'm not in it for a popularity contest. i'm trying to safe lives. the people who weaponize lies are killing people. the only question i have is that, when you show tucker carlson and peter navarro criticizing me, i consider that a badge of honor. >> i hear that. then did you have a question or are we good? >> no. i wanted to make that statement. people throw up those people that make ridiculous statements. they're telling people to do things that they're going to die from and telling me i should go to jail. as they say in my old neighborhood in brooklyn, give me a break. >> from brooklyn to washington and around the world, always great to have you. that dr. fauci. >> thanks, ari. have a good thanksgiving. coming up, the rnc is
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why do people use pornography? there are plenty of answers. congressman josh hawley has his own answer. he says all these activities can be explained by politics and what he views as a leftist brand of feminism driving men to those activities. >> the left's attack on america leads to an attack on men. can we be surprised that after years of being told they're the problem that their manhood is the problem, more and more men are withdrawing into the idleness and pornography and video games. we have to call men back to responsibility. spending your time on video games, spending your time watching porn -- the left saying men are to blame and masculinity
is to blame. >> some of this is false. pornographic material predates feminism that hawley is citing and he didn't offer any studies supporting a thesis that exposure to certain political critiques would shape one's use of pornography or video games. okay. as for the broader argument that shifter gender norms impacts people's lives, there are debates about how to adjust to any shift in political atmospheres. a democratic strategist says, biden made gains with american men. in the many places that biden improved in the previous election against trump in 2020, biden upped the democratic standing of male voters by 9 points and did so while donald
trump used his own personal fan fiction where he imagined his own body, that's his cartoon head there on someone else's body, something only photo shop could achieve. trump posted that online, imagining a more fit muscular trump. a theme echoed on fox. >> the era of the pajamas boy is over and the alpha males are back. >> it's the phrase you hear these days from dopes pretending to be smart, toxic masculinity. >> men who are strong, aggressive competitors are no longer an acceptable part of society, not really. >> i'm joined by the veteran of
three presidential campaigns and an liz plank, she wrote the book "for the love of man." welcome to you both. >> thank you, ari. >> good to be here. >> i'm going to start with jay on the politics. i quoted you. what do you think senator hawley is up to, notwithstanding some of his fact-free claims about the political link he sees between leftism and porn? >> yeah, there's clearly a political calculation. if you talked to senator hawley's strategist, they will say he needs to win back men. donald trump under performed with men by quite a lot. according to research joe biden gained 9 points among men. i mean, that's a significant number. if you think about how close that election is, it really swung the election towards joe biden.
there's no question there's a political calculation. it's a flawed political strategy because what hawley is doing is doubling down on the trump strategy that created the mess in the first place. the second thing i would say is reportedly this thing is historically important to the gop. the gop is always claiming the past is better. they've been doing it throughout the history of the republican party. one of the things they used to do was talk about the religious right. they would talk about the religious passive america was better. now as nobody would take them seriously considering trump is their leader, they're reaching towards a patriarchal past, rebranding cruelty. >> at the level of simple trolling, liz, trying to blame pornography or violent video games on new feminism is a
reach. there does seem to be something deeper going on which is the idea that feminism, along with the most gender diverse congress in history and a woman in the white house as vp, is also threatening to some people. >> yeah. if you want to find a group of people who have been researching the effects of pornography on men and on people, look to feminists, woman who have been at the forefront of this research. josh hawley is welcome to talk to us about it. my favorite part about this is that it seems like josh hawley is not okay with men watching porn stars, but he's okay with the ones who bribe them. he was okay with donald trump who really silenced a porn star and made that -- that was for a while and implicated a lot of legal attention.
so i agree the biggest erosion really that we saw in 2020 was men, and it was really white men. i wrote a piece before the 2020 election talking to republican men about this. i was hearing from a lot of men who were switching parties saying this definition of masculinity particularly under covid, the fact that he wouldn't even wear a mask and he got really sick, all of that was seen by a lot of men as like, wait a minute, we're not okay with the treatment of women and we're not okay with the way you're representing masculinity. there's something going on in this thirst trap the republican
party is laying for male voters is to have the upper hand in the conversation. >> some of this can be reduced -- both of you are referring to this fact that there is a shift. it's not just one factor. it's also with age. there may be younger conservative-minded men on certain categories who also are rejecting what we just saw from what trump was offering. the equation of masculinity with violent political crime on january 6th i think is a reach. i think there are plenty of people who favor conservative tax policy and not want to sign on to that. as for senator hawley, here's his exchange on axios. >> really, what the liberals are doing is going to push me to watch porn more?
>> the left wing attack on manhood says to men you're part of the problem. it says your masculinity is problematic. it's oppressive. >> jay? >> the sincere hypocrisy of josh hawley is unbelievable. the things that josh hawley is talking about were done by donald trump. if you think about positive male figures, you know, i think barack obama is a great male role model. he's a responsible husband, responsible father. he studied hard. he works hard. he plays sports. he's athletic. he does all those things. they would never bring him up. there are other great examples in popular culture of positive
nontoxic males. chadwick boseman's "black panther" character. those are movies that made millions of dollars. our society is not in shortage of nontoxic male figures. that's not what josh hawley is putting forward. they're putting forward donald trump who stands for everything they claim they don't stand for. >> right. i'm running out of time. liz, the idea that masculinity not unlike the best version of americanism is something that would be forged together, it's something that you explore in your book. what do you mean by mindful masculinity? >> it's important to have compassion in this conversation. there are a lot of men who are suffering in this country, but our inability to see men as
vulnerability clouds us. i'll leave you with one data point. we're seeing the recent data, people who are more likely to lead in conspiracy theories regarding covid, it's based on gender. men are more likely to believe in these theories. it puts their health at risk and communities at risk. there's a lot of pain out there. men have needs too and we need to address them or else they can be exploited. >> yeah, and an almost clinical inability to show vulnerability leads to other emotions like anger. i know it's just a tv news segment, but i think it got deep. >> it very much did. i think liz brought some very deep philosophied research to the conversation. >> i love the mindful
masculinity in this segment. i'm a fan. >> we'll keep at it. two friends of "the beat," and i want to thank josh hawley for making this conversation possible. when we come back, we have a report on something that i've been telling you about. there is accountability. sometimes it's slow going. neo nazis losing big based on their conduct in the charlottesville rally. then later the heat on trump as prosecutors follow the money. an update on what's happening in new york. always busy. i was starting to feel a little foggy. just didn't feel like things were as sharp as i knew they once were. i heard about prevagen and then i started taking it about two years now. started noticing things a little sharper, a little clearer. i feel like it's kept me on my game. i'm able to remember things. i'd say give it a try. prevagen. healthier brain. better life.
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the jury deadlocked on two federal conspiracy charges. these were the people chanting quote you will not replace us as a neo nazi rammed a car into protesters killing one. a counsel for the plaintiffs, the people suing today said they were very, very satisfied to have this accountability and this verdict. >> this jury did find a conspiracy to commit violence and racially motivated violence as to each and every defendant so we think that is a resounding verdict today and frankly, a good sign for the future on the remaining counts. >> completely good. >> no, we're absolutely thrilled. >> absolutely thrilled. these white supremacists were found liable and this is a big deal that affects them. there is many different ways to meet out justice in the courts that they are now ordered to pay millions of dollars in damages to those people hurt according to the court by the rally, the
violence, all of it. the lawyers say they will plan to try these defendants again on the remaining federal charges asked in that press availability. meanwhile, in georgia another jury is wrapping up the first day of deliberations in a different trial. these are three white men that tracked down and killed the unarmed 25-year-old jogger ahmaud arbery. a powerful rebuttal before the jury went to deliberate. >> any of you runners? ever have a strange truck and have people yell at you? would that startle you? we don't know. we don't know what was in the mind of ahmaud arbery. what do you think? did it cause fear for them these strange men pulling up in a truck and not relenting and not backing off? this is three on one. how about some empathy? >> a call by the attorney there for empathy explaining why
arbery was running and then running for his life in fear and then according to prosecutors was in that so-called three on one murdered. >> he finally tried to runaround their truck after running from them for five minutes. he was trying to get away from these strangers who were yelling at him, yelling at him, threatening to kill him. and then they killed him. >> and then they killed him and that is a fact of the case because it's on tape and not in dispute. the jury is asked to decide something else as it deliberates. is it murder? the defense is leaning on something we've been reporting for you, this argument it could be kind of a citizen's arrest in the mind of the killers even if they didn't say it out loud and that is something that was a theme in the 17-year-old rittenhouse trial. he was acquitted of murdering two blm protesters.
he claimed self-defense and is now speaking out including a fox interview. >> it's just amazing to see how much a prosecutor can take advantage of somebody like if they did this to me, imagine what they would have done to a person of color that maybe doesn't have the resources i do or not widely publicized like my case. >> yes, imagine what the justice system does to people of color, mr. rittenhouse says. of course, he killed two people at a black lives matter protest, which was in essence a non-violent movement to try to get people to imagine what the justice system does to people of color. now when we come back, we pose a question and answer. why is the national republican committee using money to go toward electing people to pay the legal bills of the former president? lls tofhe former president? my helpers abound, i'll need you today. our sleigh is now ready, let's get on our way.
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donald trump faces open criminal probes. "the washington post" reports the rnc is covering his legal fees for criminal probes in new york. he's a personal legal fees. trump's political operation raised over $100 million. he would seem to have the money but just doesn't want to spend it and now is asking a party faithful to put aside money that would go towards electing republicans to just keep him and his team out of jail in new york. an update on that as promised. that does it for us. "the reidout" starts now. hi, joy. >> isn't that interesting? the billionaire isn't paying -- that is interesting. i'm sure you'll do more of that on the show. thank you. >> good to see you. >> have a wonderful evening. we begin "the reidout" with the news for the select committee on january 6th. for the second time in two days they issued new subpoenas that and the bach targets right wing