tv The Rachel Maddow Show MSNBC November 23, 2021 9:00pm-10:00pm PST
on behalf of our colleagues at the networks of nbc news, good night. here joining us live tonight. this is going to be my first chance to interview or since before the 2020 elections. i have a lot of stuff stored up to ask her. i also, have to tell you i ripped through the political thriller she just wrote with the great author luis penny. they co-wrote a political thriller. it's hillary clinton's first novel. i read everything luis penny writes anyway. honestly, i read their book so fast that was like somebody was timing me to get through it. so, we will talk a little bit about that with secretary clinton. we'll talk with her a lot about what's going on in the country right now.
i'm really looking forward to that interview. but before we get there, i want to give you an important update tonight on a story that we have been covering closely. this is a story that is more than four decades in the making. as i said, we have been covering it for a while now just because it is a through the looking glass absolutely bizarre impossible to believe story out of missouri. and it's related to a man name kevin strikland. kevin strikland was -- years old when he was arrested in kansas city, they put him on trial for a triple murder that he insisted he had nothing to do with. he had an alibi, didn't matter, he had people who cooperated his alibi. did it matter. there was no physical evidence at all connecting him to the crime. that did not matter either. it wasn't all white jury, he was 18 years old. he was convicted on all counts. he was sentenced to life in prison. well today he is 62 years old.
and for the entirety of the more than four decades that kevin strikland has been behind bars, he has maintained his absolute innocence of the crime for which he was convicted. last year, the city star, god bless him, did a blockbuster in-depth investigation into his case. they found very extensive problems with this case, like problems you can believe. even if you are not a lawyer. problems you can't believe even if all you've ever seen is in cop tv shows. like for example, the two other men who were convicted of the crime, both of whom admit so i've been being part of. it they both say that yes we had something to do with it but kevin strikland guy had nothing to do with it. kevin strikland was convicted purely on the basis of one eye witnesses testimony. the entire case against him was relied on her testimony against him. the problem is, she recanted that testimony. insistently, and repeatedly.
the single witness against him on who testimony against him rested. she said she had been pressured by the police to wrongfully accused him. and she came forward with that, and told people that she wanted nothing more than to see him set free. the legal group representing kevin strikland, the midwest in term project. they tried to use all of this to get a pardon from mr. strickland. from the republican, mike parson, he refused to do anything about it. he refused to have anything to do with the case at all. but then something happened that really never happens. the prosecutors office that brought these charges, brought the prosecution against kevin strickland back in the day. the prosecutors office came out and said that prosecution that we did, that was wrong. they came forward and said that they had independently, investigated this mattered, reinvestigate this crime, and they found that kevin
strickland was factually innocent. of this crime for which he had been convicted. they said that the case never should've been brought. the lead prosecutor in that office at jackson county missouri came forward publicly and abjectly apologized as she said, kevin strickland should be immediately freed. >> i am here advocating for mr. strickland's freedom and his conviction should be vacated. most importantly, advocating that this man must be freed immediately. my job is to protect the innocent and often prosecutors show hubris. you probably see michelle some of that from time to time. and today my job is to apologize. it is important to recognize when the system has made wrongs and what we did in this case was wrong.
so to mr. strickland i am profoundly sorry. i am profoundly sorry for the harm that has come to you. >> since that remarkable public statement, prosecutor jean peters baker's, she has been trying to fix this. we interviewed around the show and she said that she would fight until this was fixed. now again the republican governor in the state could easily fix this he can pardon mr. strickland, but he refused to do anything to fix of what had gone wrong here. and so jane peters baker's among others advocated for a new law in missouri. which just in fact went into effect this august. and this lets prosecutors like herself file motions in court so that a judge can fix wrongful convictions like this one. it finally worked today. after 42 years and four months in prison one of the longest time served in u.s. history,
and what is known to be a wrongful conviction, today kevin strickland went free. the judge ruled today the courts confidence in strickland's conviction is so undermined that the conviction cannot stand the judgment and conviction must be set aside, the state of missouri shall immediately distinct charge kevin from its custody. thus ordered that was the result. today kevin strickland, here he was, speaking outside of the prison where he has spent past four decades. this is just moments after his release. >> did you ever think that the state was going to come? what were you thinking about. sitting in that prison? >> no i didn't think the state was going to come. i, mean not before i got this legal team i didn't. i was thinking in prison today before this happened? i was actually watching a soap opera and the thing called news
break -- and i just couldn't believe what i was hearing. >> so that's how you learned? >> that's how i learned. >> the breaking news on the television about him being freed while he was watching a soap opera inside the prison where he spent more than four decades. mr. strickland says he does not know what is going to do next. but he does have two places he would like to visit first. first, he would like to see the ocean. he has never seen the ocean in person. so he plans to do that. he also wants to visit his mother's great. she died in august, despite the advanced state of the exoneration process around him at that point in august, governor mike parson of missouri will not allow kevin strickland to attend his mother 's funeral even if he had to do so in shackles. they wouldn't let him go to his funeral, he now tells the washington post, if we don't stop at the grave site first. i'm going to get out of the car and i'm going to make it there on my hands and knees. kevin strickland, free today, man in the 60s. now he uses a wheelchair.
locked up since he was a teenager for something he did not do. the midwest innocence project the kansas city star and morocco, plea the local prosecutors office finally got him free today. we have covered that story extensively for the last few, months we wanted you to be sure you knew how that finally result today. just incredible. and, also, within a couple of hours of that happening, we also got a verdict today, and another super high profile high stakes child of a very different kind. charlottesville virginia, we've been watching this shell of nearly two dozen neo-nazis white supremacists. another far-right white group that organized a white supremacist rally slash right in charlottesville in 2017. this was the incident where president trump said they were very fine people on both sides. with this case has been, is a civil case. brought by plaintiffs against the neo-nazis and white
supremacy's. the plane to save nine people who are injured or otherwise targeted at that event that they wanted the defendant held liable for what occurred in charlottesville in 2017. but these guys had organized and planned for. well today, after deliberating for roughly two and a half days. the federal jury hearing this case, in fact, found those defendants liable. and found that the defendant must pay more than $25 million in damages. that to the plaintiff. that had been the state of go to the people who brought this to case. they tried to bankrupt the neo-nazis and white supremacist move in this country. this will go some distance for that and, now the jury did deadlock on two counts. deadlock means they couldn't come to a unanimous agreement and that was on two of the claims that were made by the plaintiff in this case, again most of the claims were decided in the plaintiffs favor including $25 million in damages against the defendant. the plaintiffs floor today wasted no time in declaring himself be on thrilled.
with what the jury had decided saying that justice was served today but they were equally quick to promise that on the two charges in which the jury deadlocked they are going to seek a re-trial for this white supremacist defendant on those two claims. >> this case was argued for the plane to buy two very high powered attorney where brenda kaplan and karen dunn, they took this case on the nonprofit group integrity first for america. it has been a long four-year process since the events of 2017, to bring all of this to flourishing. but today, they set up to do what they said they would do and what they spent all this effort on, all of this deeply deeply emotional fraud effort to get done. >> joining us now live from charlottesville are karen dunn and roberta kaplan, the two plaintiffs lawyers in this case. karen and robert, i thank you for being here. i imagine you are exhausted, this is been a long trial. >> i think that's fair to say rachel, thanks for having. us >> so it was something like
three dozen witnesses on your side. three dozen and a half weeks of testimonies up against all of these defendants. some of them tried to pretend the case wasn't happening. and there was a default judgment against some of them. i want to ask you about all of. that it has been such a difficult time for the plaintiffs to have to get back through all of this. to explain what they went there. but it was just an incredibly hard case to bring. i wonder, now that it's come to this resolution. how satisfied are you on this verdict? how satisfied you are that you did this? how close this is to what you are aiming to from the beginning? >> rachel, thank you for having us. we are thrilled beyond any imagination with this verdict. we came to charlottesville to prove a conspiracy, to commit russia -- we prove that to each and every defendant. we brought this case against. we can to care for punitive damages for our plaintiffs, and
we did that, we secured that today. and so we couldn't be happier with the result that we got for the plaintiffs in this case. who we just came from seeing many of them. they are brave. they are resilient. they are relieved and they have some measure of accountability and closure. >> tell me about the impact of this large damages award because i look at that monsters ball, that robe gallery of defendants in that case. and the gentleman and the organization and i see a lot of things and i look at them don't feel like if i shook them upside down, $25 million would fall. out so, these are very large damages findings by the jury and what's the likelihood that this money will ever be seen or a significant portion of this money will ever be seen? i think that rachael we should have some confidence will be seen that karen and i speaking across we are both dedicated
making sure that that happens. but perhaps even more importantly, i think that the jury, saw and hopefully the country saw the truth of who these people are and what they did and what they believe, and how incredibly dangerous it is to our society, to us having a civil society and this was four weeks of hearing about -- mine cough, hitler, the f no state and [inaudible] . and we persuaded a jury of the truth. based on the hateful beliefs to come and commit violence against racial and religious minorities. and that's what they did, and they celebrated. and now they are going to have to pay some judgments as a result. >> when you to started working on this case, when this case started to come together, how far of a distance did you come over the course of the trump? between the start of this case and now, in terms of what you learned about the so-called alt-right, what you learned about the status of the white
supremacist, white nationalists, and indeed neo-nazi movement in this country, did you feel like your understanding grew to be more serious, more nuanced in terms of the extent of that movement and its capabilities? >> absolutely. even for people like robbie and me, who spent four years leading this, we saw with clarity for the first time some of the most dangerous parts of this movement, first of all we saw the meticulous planning of what went on in charlottesville, and we really only, new i think half of it before we saw the truth told on the witness stand actra. we saw a theme a marriage, we saw that people came to plowed through counter protesters with their bodies with shields, and finally as everyone tragically knows with the car, it was all versions of the same thing we also got a mission today from one of the defense councils who
after the verdict, told a reporter that actually they had implemented a strategy to desensitize the jury. to the hateful rhetoric and violence just the racial epithets, that were used by saying it over, and over and over again. so we knew that this was a strategy. ourselves told the jury that this was happening, but the fact that this was admitted by one of the defense councils after the trial, just claimed what was going on, here and to what's agree they were trying to misrepresent the situation to the jury. and did not buy. today, the jury did find in favor of the plaintiffs on most of the counties that were before them. they were deadlocked, they were unable to come to an agreement on the first two cars that were put to them. which were essentially, federal, racially motivated conspiracy charges. now, you said, robbie, after the hearing today, excuse me after the proceedings today, that those counts will be tried
again. that you will see to retry those defendants on those counts on which the jury deadlocked. can you explain how that works when you mean by that? >> so essentially, with respect to those two counts, rachel, it's as if they never happened. the jury is gonna go home for thanksgiving, understandably, were not able to intervene with that. but that gives us the opportunity to go after defendants on those councils again, we fully intend to do so, the defendant should not rest easy, to think they are not going to be held liable. not only for state conspiracy, as there are found, but also for federal conspiracy. and we have spent four years, we are willing to spend another four years, four takes that time, but i don't think it will. >> let me also ask you about this. i think it's seven of these defendants, who effectively tried to pretend like these proceedings weren't happening. -- one of them i believe there is a man who served multiple life sentences for having driven the car into the group of counter
protesters, killing heather hire, and wounding a dozen more people, of those seven defendants who, refused to engage. we reported here that the judge essentially issued a default judgment against them and i know that the court will now act further to decide what's to dispensation of those guys, with sort of damages those guys have to pay for those who have a default putting out some. and explain what that means, because that's another big part of the next steps here. >> absolutely, there are seven defendants against whom we have claims of default. the courts are most likely to be guided by the jury's vote today, so i think it's substantial damage to the contents therrien punitive damages. as to james feels, the driver of the car. one extraordinary thing will happen in this verdict, is that james field was found to be part of a conspiracy with richard spencer, james spencer,
and the rest of the defendants in this case. so the fact that they said, we had nothing to do with this, we didn't know james yields, the jury found there was still a conspiracy among all the defendants. so that is a very important part of the verdict that happened today. >> carried doug, and roberta kaplan, two very accomplished litigators, if you've done nothing else in your life except this you guys will always be known as the attorneys who sued the nazis and one. congratulations on this verdict, and i know these are -- as we've been talking about, these are in some ways first steps, and there's more to come here. we'll have you back to walk through that when it happens. good luck to you both. >> thank you so much. >> all right. in just, a minute we're going to be joined live here by hillary rotem clinton, however a lot to ask about obviously. stay with us. obviously stay with us stay with us ♪♪it's a most unusual day♪♪
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since i was last able to interview her. since then, we as a country have had a fairly consequential presidential election, a major violent effort to disrupt the true peaceful transition of power. a losing presidential can't dictate who has mounted a relentless increasingly bizarre but weirdly successful campaign to convince his followers that he certainly won the election, and it secretly the shadow president. with nevertheless -- longest war, the ongoing battle against covid, and, and. joining us now for the interview is hillary roderick clinton, former presidential candidate, first lady, u.s. senator, and now novelist. secretary clinton has just cockburn a political thriller called a state of terror, with our friend louise penny. i've read it, i read it in about a day, it was like i was being chased. very much enjoyed it, secretary clinton, is really good to have you here, congratulations on
the book. >> thanks so much, rachel, it's great to talk to you. i got exhausted as you are going through the last year like that. if >> you've been exhausted, i've been covering in our everyday. look at me. i'm actually only a 14, i just look at this after this year. >> well you're holding up well under the circumstances. >> yeah that's makeup. i do want to ask you, i did love the book. to be fair, i read everything that louis penny writes, so i would've read it anyway, even if she hadn't ridden it with you. i was struck by the fact that this is a huge change in your life. we use this comically long set of titles to introduce you, presidential nominee, former first lady, the negatives novelist. is your life different, better, worse now, that you're in this part of your life? you know what, it's different.
and there's so much that's fascinating and good about it, and writing a novel during the pandemic with my friend louise penny, it was just a total treat, it was so much fun to have a chance to collaborate with her, to do something i had never done before. using her extraordinary writing ability, her creativity, and my experience and some of my ideas. i don't think we could've done it if it hadn't have been during the pandemic, rachel. . because it was just so all consuming, and it's been terrific, and i love the fact that we were able to do it together, and they you know, a lot of people seem to be enjoying it. i'm thrilled they like the thriller, so to speak. >> well, i'm gonna put up on the screen my favorite headline of a review of your book. this is from the l.a. times. the headline is, hillary clinton's debut crime novel is
actually good. >> [laughs] . >> the pollen that to me when i wrote my first book, to me that's my fever kind of review, people who are ready to hate it, but they must admit it's good. you must be buoyed by the fact that people who are prepared to haiti because it's you, so liked it. >> i'm kind of used to people underestimating me, and think game i'm something i'm not. so i can't say i was surprised when i got headlines like that. but i was really gratified that people actually read the book. and looked at the characters, and follow the story, and plotline. so, it was, it was really gratifying to have so many people say. wow, wasn't sure i was gonna like, it or wasn't sure what i
thought. but it's a great read, and it's been fun talking to people in this country, canada, uk. literally all over europe. about it. because obviously, a lot of it is ripped from the headlines, as the cliché goes. but at its heart, it's about this incredible friendship between these two women, the secretary of state and her best friend and counselor. and, they too are estimated rachel, no one expects much from them as they try to prevent this huge catastrophe from hitting our country. let me ask you about some of the broader political wings that are blowing right now. the book is very much situated within this, there's a sort of, not very, i sort of trump-like character aide that's the president in the novel. i know you've talked about those parallels. but i had a conversation on the show a few weeks ago within
applebaum. she wrote a piece in the atlantic called, the bad guys are waiting. and i knew i was going to be hopefully talking to you soon, and want to ask you about that the says. in part because i feel like your outlook on these things is getting brighter doctor, where are you are in life and where the country has been. if the 20th century was the story of a slow and an even progress for the victory of liberal democracy, the 21st century is a story that reverse. she says, not only what's going on in the united states is a reversal away from democracy, but we should see it as part of a global problem. she identifies in particular, the authoritarian strongman regimes around the world are all helping each other. including, personally supporting other corrupt leaders and the corruption, and helping them invade sanctions and stuff. and it does feel, both global, and very hard fight. it feels almost inexorable, and speaking with an app along
about that, i found myself sort of in a dark place with a few days. i want that to you and asked whether you see that through a lens darkly as well. or whether you will feel more optimistically about strategy against it. >> well, rachel, i am very worried, concerned, i spend a lot of time thinking about exactly wet and applebaum and you, and others are worried about, and trying to point out. because i do think we are facing a crisis of democracy, a crisis of legitimacy, a crisis that really goes to the heart of what the future of our country and many others around the world will be. so i spend my time trying to figure out what we can do about it, and i'm not ever going to give up because there's just
too much at stake. but first and foremost we have to make sure that more people besides people like you, me and and applebaum and others. that sharon's earned, see what we see. because i think that the role of disinformation, the way that propaganda has really been weaponized, and the increasing ability to manipulate people through algorithms, and other films of other artificial intelligence, will only make this hard to come back. so i don't want to be pessimistic about it, because i think this is a worthy and necessary battle. i saw you talking to my two friends, karen dunn and robbie kaplan, when they took on that case against the neo-nazis and the white supremacist coming of charlottesville. a lot of people were sort of scratching their heads, and i remember talking to both of them, particularly karen, who
have known, and she's worked for me. and my her greatly we, about why they're doing it. it was very simple, somebody had to do it, we had got to and impunity we, have to hold people accountable for their actions. particularly when those actions threaten our way of life, our rule of law, our future as a democracy. and i am determined to continue to speak out to do whatever i can, and in fact in the book we, wrote state of terror, as you know there is a plot against the country. by people who truly want to turn the clock back. they believe that the progress they have made on all kinds of civil rights and human rights the cultural changes that have taken place are so deeply threatening that they want to stage a coup. now think about, it because that is truly what is behind trump and his enablers, and
those who have invaded and attacked our capital. they don't like the world were living room and they have that in common, with leaders from russia to turkey, to hungary, to brazil, and so many other places. who are driven by personal power and greed and corruption. but who utilize fears about change to try to get people to hate one another and feel insecure, and therefore, be easily manipulated by demigods, and disinformation. >> you know, less than a week after the january 6th attack in the second week of january, you wrote a piece on the washington post that i read today. at upon a lot of observations you said, it is sobering that many people are and by what occurred last, week in generous. is particularly people of color.
for whom a violent mob waving confederate flags and hanging nooses is a familiar sight in american history. i've been thinking a lot about that recently because on the one hand what feels like a real emergency going on feels a a disturbingly large part of the right promoting and excusing political violence, while at the same time they are trying to discredit our political system in our electoral processes. that combined messages from the, right that politics doesn't, work and violence is okay, that is a recipe for disaster. that is a recipe for the end of democracy. but on the other, had we are talking about it as an unprecedented threat. and to me it doesn't feel unprecedented. through the lens of how people of color have lived in this democracy the rejection of political mechanisms, choosing violence instead of fair political contest that is the history of how people of color have been treated in this country, over, and over, and over again. and i feel like you have been trying to make that point aggressively. does understanding that the non
unprecedented nature of where we are help us figure out the way of this particular news? >> i think it points us to the direction that we go when our better angels are leading us and that is understanding human nature, being what it is. we do need foundries, we need guardrails. we need to have an understanding amongst this great pluralistic country of ours. if we are all going to get ahead we all have to be much more sensitive to understanding and empathetic towards each other. and particularly that applies to people of color, minority groups of all kinds. because we truly rise or fall together. and we have had leaders who have risen to those occasions who have certainly done their best to inspire us and create
the right environment for us to look past our differences and find our common humanity, our common ground. and we have had loss past that try to create those structures, those guardrails, those prohibitions against mistreatment of each other. but what we have seen sadly in the last several years is not new in our history because it is rooted in the struggles that we have had going back to before are beginning. but it is, unfortunately, turbocharged by the combination of demagogues social media that is more interested in profitability than the rule of law and unity that feeds disinformation just in a way that strips people to the core of their insecurities and their
fears. so it is not new in any way but the way it is being implemented is new. and it is really hard to escape. so the problem that we face is an old problem but with a new twist because of technology. i think we are really on the precipice, rachel, seeing people particularly in the republican party. but not only their. who truly just want power. pro or to impose their views, power to exploit financial advantages. power to implement a religious point of view. we see all of that converging and, as you said in the very beginning of your question, this is not an american phenomenon.
and applebaum, who i respect greatly has been covering this from her perch in europe, particularly in poland. because we see the signs of it everywhere. democracy is messy, a lot of people thought, oh i got messy looking at the process of legislation -- they didn't really appreciated that within a year, the biden administration has passed two major pieces of legislation through both the house and the senate. they have passed another major piece through the house that will soon be in the senate by any measure, those are extraordinary accomplishments. and they really will help many millions of americans with health care, prescription drug prices as well as climate change and so much else. but because of the way we are getting our information today, and because of the lack of gatekeepers and people who have
a historic perspective, who can help us understand what they are seeing. there is a real vulnerability in the electorate to the kind of demagoguery and disinformation that, unfortunately, the other side is really good at exploiting. >> that technological piece of it is something that i want to ask you about next. we are going to take a quick break, if you don't, mind but when we come back i want to ask you about that because i feel like the u.s. government is at a point where they actually have a decision to make as to whether or not they are going to be activists on that point or whether they are going to let things continue to go the way they have been. super interested to hear your take on, that will be right back with former secretary of state hillary clinton, right after this. after this at if your clothes could stay fresh for weeks? now they can. downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters keep your laundry smelling fresh waaaay longer than detergent alone. pour a cap of downy unstopables into your washing machine before each load.
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just getting by. it's an ongoing struggle. that's why president biden and democrats in congress have a plan to lower costs for america's working families. lower costs of health care premiums. and the price of prescription drugs. pay less for electric bills by moving to clean energy. we do it all by making the ultra-wealthy pay their fair share of taxes. it'd be a win for the everyday american family. right when they could really use one. congress, let's get this done.
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you're talking before the break about how technology, how the speed and sort of quantitative accelerant that social media has become for disinformation, has given a sort a quantitative problem that we haven't had before. yes, we've had antidemocratic moments, yes we've had authoritarian movements, yes we have people who choose violence over the rule of law. but it is this information technology side of it is new. one of the things have been most disturbed by in the news this year, was what happened with google and apple, and the russian government, with russian elections this year. the russian government went to google and apple and told them to take down pro democracy apps run by the opposition candidates. google took down alexei navalny 's youtube videos, the russian government threatened apple and google and they both caved quickly, and did what putin wanted them to do in terms of crushing dissent and crippling
the opposition. is there a role for the u.s. government to play to stop american private companies from doing putin's bidding like that? or doing things like that for other authoritarian regimes around the world? >> i think there is. but let's start, first at home, rachel. i share your concern about what happened in the russian elections, but i think first we have to take necessary legislative and regulatory action to begin to regulate the way that our social media and tech companies operate. we had to have new rules for the industrial age, at the beginning of the last century. well, we certainly need new rules for the information age, because our currents laws, our framework, it is just not adequate for what we are facing. and there are a number of very
good ideas about how to both apply existing laws, and to fill the gaps that exist so that we can begin to try to rein in some of the abuses, of the technology companies. particularly the social media companies. in the absence of that, i really don't know where this ends. because, certainly the example you gave us a good one. we can look around the world and see the role that facebook, and others have played in helping to foment authoritarian movements, even, unfortunately, massacred some argued the genocide of the rohingya. there's a lot that has to be dealt with, and even answered for. but i was disappointed that apple, which has been very staunch supporter of independents, and really taking a stand against some of the
other companies. was in the position you described, to give into the pressure from the kremlin. as well as google. so, we have to start with how we create a framework. we should work in concert with our friends in europe, who are also looking at a lot of these issues, to try to come up with sensible solutions that would be the equivalent of regulation in the information age. i want to mention one other thing that is on the horizon, the people are only beginning to pay attention to, and that's the need to regulate the crypto currency markets. because imagine the combination, of social media, the algorithms that drive social media, with the amassing of even larger sums of money through the control of certain cryptocurrency chains. we are looking at not only states, such as in china, or russia, or others.
manipulating technology, of all kinds, to their advantage. we are looking at non state actors, either in concert with states, or on their own, these stabilizing countries, the stabilizing the dollar and the reserve currency. we there are so many big questions that the biden administration must address, i just don't think we have much time and therefore, i hope, from everything i'm hearing from them, that's exactly what they're going to try to do. we. >> let me ask you about another point of concern, a point of crisis in the biden administration over this past year, today's exactly 100 days since the taliban have been in control enough content. i was thinking about it in part because the overlap in your book the state of terror where the idea of the afghan government been handed over to the taliban, as one of the threats that's wielded by
enemies of this country. but in that hundred days, since the taliban have been in charge, it's been a cavalcade of horse. we learned today in terms of women in civil society in afghanistan, women are now banned from performing in any sort of scripted tv shows, or offers, or dramas. as of now, female news anchors are being required to wear head scarves when they appear on television. there was a report, over the summer, that you had chartered planes to fly highly at risk women out of afghanistan. i just want to ask of those reports were true, and if so, can you tell us anymore about where involvement there was and what you did? >> well, they are true, i worked with a group of organizations, also with the united states government, and the governments of other countries, to be able to get high risk women, and by that i
mean women who we knew would be the target of taliban action. in some cases, they'd already been a target for assassinations, but certainly they would be stripped of their role in the outside world, and return to the home, and a lot of concern about young women who would then be forced to marry. we have a list of about 1000 women, in a high risk category. and these were not women who had worked directly for the united states government, but they've been in the afghan government, they've been in the education system in the health care system, in the media. and they'd been staunch allies of the violates that the united states we're talking about and trying to support in afghanistan, during the last 20 years, so an incredible consortium of concerned people in organizations, raised a lot
of money, to charter planes, we worked with countries to receive thousands of women in family members. and i have to say, rachel, it was one of the most nor nerve-racking, heartbreaking, times in my public life. from mid august, into late september, and efforts are still continuing. but i don't know why anybody would be surprised. you know, when trump agreed to the document that his own national security adviser, hr mcmaster is called a surrender document. a surrender agreement, between the taliban in the united states. the handwriting was on the wall, the taliban had a very lengthy head start to be able to intimidate, in course, and extort, and threaten, and kill. those, out in the country, who is standing against them. i think the pace of the fall of
the government might have been a little faster than people anticipated, but the outcome was not in doubt. and, as you say in the book state of terror. i talk about the concerns that i and many others had, but there is a continuing likelihood of threats coming from afghanistan. with the taliban would never denounce or break ties with al-qaeda, we know there is an active isis operation going on inside afghanistan. so, in addition to the grave threats to, win in, but others who were involved in trying to help the people of afghanistan. there is a continuing need for great vigilance about possible threats coming toward us out of afghanistan, again. let me ask you, one last topic
about something going on here at home, texas's abortion ban was allowed to go into effect in september. texas has essentially made abortion all but illegal since september 1st, which could get a supreme court reeling on that on monday. and then wednesday, that mississippi abortion ban is going to be having its own oral arguments before the court. and that case it's explicitly designed to dismantle and get rid of roe. do you feel like this is the end? in terms of american women having access to legal abortions. i was born in the same year as we're versus. wave these protections for american women have been in effect my whole life. how do you explain to someone that that might be ending in the significance of the? >> well i was born before then. and i know the significance because this was a very real
concern. and oftentimes terrible choice that one young women in particular face. and it is one of the reasons that in the roe v. wade decision, the supreme court consisting, primarily, of justices appointed by republican presidents before that time concluded that it was such a personal decision that went right to the heart of the autonomy and agency and independence of a woman that it certainly had to be considered a constitutional right that was connected to the right of privacy. so, to my perspective, it seems likely that if roe is not completely overturned it is going to be considerably limited. the texas law, again, i'm a
recovering lawyer rachel so don't hold me to it. but the texas law to me seems fatally flawed with its method of enforcement. the mississippi law may be a more direct threat. >> hillary clinton's -- excuse, me i didn't mean to jump in there in a way that surprised you. hillary clinton is the author of the new state of terror, with the great author luis penny. the two of them together make something that is actually quite fantastic. secretary clinton, it is a real pleasure. anytime that you can make time to be here, thank you in particular for being here tonight with so much going on, it's a pleasure to have you here. >> thank you. >> all right, we'll be right back, stay with us. back, stay with us
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armageddon? ring any bells? in the movie, armageddon, a giant asteroid is about to crash into earth, oh no. and the head of nasa, billy bob third, was deciding that the only way to stop it from destroying all of human civilization on earth's, bruce willis. bruce willis, ben affleck, and the lovable rag tag band of oil drillers. they were flown into space planning to bomb in the asteroid and thereby stop it from smashing into our planet. if you haven't seen armageddon, it is exactly as ridiculous as it sounds it's one of those movies that is so terribly bad. it is really quite good. and the reason i bring it up tonight is because, tonight, armageddon is happening. and again, i do not mean the end of days, what i mean is they are doing it for real. tonight, nasa is going to use a rocket to launch a spacecraft into space that has one goal they are going to smash the
spacecraft into an asteroid at 15,000 miles an hour. the idea is to try to see if by smashing the spacecraft into it they can knock the asteroid into its course, just a little bit. just in case some asteroid in the future, like the one unarmed, getting really does and up on a collision course with her. this is their proposed test method for knocking the asteroid off course. the mission is called the double asteroid redirection test, dart,. and the rocket they are setting it up and is not full of handsome swerve oil rig workers but if all goes, well that spacecraft really is going to crash into an app destroyed with enough course to change its trajectory. fingers crossed. you can watch it happen if you are so inclined, the launch is scheduled to begin at 1:20, eastern time, tonight. nasa says its livestream starts at half hour past midnight, okay, that does it for us for, not we'll see you again tomorrow, depending on what happens on the asteroid. now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell.