tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC November 24, 2021 12:00am-1:00am PST
>> proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> new subpoenas handed down to the proud boys, and other militia groups involved in january six, tonight with the meantime investigation into the through line the fringe to mainstream -- plus, a big victory in virginia the people behind the deadly charlottesville rally, found liable for millions of dollars in damages. then, michelle goldberg on the danger of political despair, and john podesta and joe biden's battle against rising gas prices. >> it will take time, but before long, you should see the price of gas drop when you felt the tank. >> all in starts right now. >> we good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, this evening we mark 58 years since the assassination of jfk, as his motorcade drove through daily plaza in texas, and
yesterday on the anniversary of that assassination, a small crowd gathered. this red pick up truck drove in circles, proclaiming trump won 2020, along with a bunch of qanon slogans. we've mentioned this group before, it's a small group, they're splinter faction from the fringes of the far-right qanon movement. in fact, three weeks ago hundreds of members of this cult, for lack of a better word, assembled at daily plaza awaiting the return of john f. kennedy and his son, jfk junior, who of course died in a plane crash, tragically, in 1999. they believe that the kind of these are not actually dead, and will receive veal themselves in order to help reinstate donald trump as president. now, it's supposed to happen at 12:29 pm on november 2nd. obviously, that did not happen. but a hard-core group remains in daily plaza, still waiting for something to happen. the leader of this called promised, quote, something big
yesterday. you can look at all this and be forgiven for thinking that the country is going through a bit of a psychotic episodes. but look, all kinds of people with all kinds of politics and all kinds of places believe all sorts of bananas things, probably i do. so i don't necessarily want to single this group out, the reason they're noteworthy, is because they're pulling peculiarities and beliefs are associated with a certain fraction of the american right, that are adjacent to part of the bigger lie being pushed by the leader of the entire republican party. now it's worth noting that as bizarre as a country's politics team right now, and they really do. there's also a case to be made that it's always been like this. we have always had wild fringe elements of political parties, colds, and conspiracy theories. in fact, john f. kennedy was supposed to deliver a speech in dallas, on november 20 seconds, 1963, where he planned to speak out against misinformation and conspiracies.
he was supposed to stay, in part, ignorance and murray mission can, if allowed to prevail in foreign policy, handicapped this country security. there will always be dissident voices heard in the land, expressing opposition without alternative. those voices are inevitable. but today other voices are heard in the land, voices preaching doctrines wholly unrelated to reality. doctrines wholly unrelated to reality. kennedy never got a chance to give that speech, of course, he was murdered before he reached the venue, where he planned to deliver it. and 5000 copies of this flyer were handed out by the far-right in dallas, in the days leading up to kennedys 1963 visit. you can see it there, wanted for treason, and proclaims. punishment of treason, of course, being deaf. the rhetoric here is more toward the concerns of the, moment cold war, and communism. and some of the modern incarnations of the right. but still, listen for a second,
because it all sounds honestly, pretty familiar. he is turning the sovereignty of the u.s. over to the communist-controlled united nations. he has given support and encouragement to the communist inspired racial riots. he has consistently and pointed anti christians to federal office. this is pretty standard john birch society stuff, the far-right function of the time. but for the most paranoid military part of the american right, they've been with us decades on decades, you can draw straight line from those people who would write print off and hand out those fires, who are handing them out in dallas, in 1963 saying wanting for treason. you can draw straight line from that to the modern version, saying the person of alex jones. the far-right radio host, prominent conspiracy theorists, who claims among and many other completely crazy things, that the met sicker at sandy hook was a false flag, it was staged.
then a group of powerful leaves are fine to take of the world, and if you get him on the top of the united nations, he sounds just like the people who pointed out those fires. jones was also big figure pushing the big lie that the election was stolen, and who's pushing it ahead of the insurrection on january 6th. here is, in washington, on january 5th. >> we have only begun to resist the globalists. we have only begun our fight against their tyranny. they tried to steal this election in front of everyone. as i told him 20 years ago, i tell them again, if they want to fight they better believe they've got a one. >> the globalists, the globalists, the globalists, the tyranny of the foreigners. jones is the ultimate personification of that famous essay, by richard hostetter, on the paranoid style of american
politics. or another type of that flyer, the wonderful treason flyer, and the american politicians as often been an read of her angry minds. in recent years we have seen angry minds most -- but behind this i believe there is a style of mind that is far from new, and that is not necessarily right-wing. i called the paranoid style, simply because no one other word adequately invokes the sense of heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy i have in mind. and well alice jones is not handing out fliers, he is in fact been exiled for major social media flat forms. he's been found liable for the lies he took about sandy hook. he's also a person who is coordinating by his own admission, within president on a trump's team a person with the ear of the most powerful person in the world, who is attempting a coup to keep himself in power. trump was mobilizing precisely those forces led by alex jones, who is there on january 6th. fomenting the big lie, we've been up the crowd, and as you've probably heard, alex jones was subpoenaed by the
january six committee yesterday. today, the committee issued new subpoenas to other figures who are right in line with the astros paranoid style, and the people who handed out those flyers and 1963 wanted for treason. the subpoenas went to three far-right militia or paramilitary groups, with the committee said were involved in the planning of the riot on january 6th. they are the proud boys international, and its chairman henry enrique tarrio. the oath keepers and its president elmer student roads, and the first member pretoria in, and it's chairman robert patrick louis. what more on those subpoenas later. the thing that makes this moment different in this era of american politics, i think you can see the continuity here, it's important to fall prey to the allure presentism. this country's been around a while, thanks have been pretty nuts here a long time. it's not the presence of people like alex jones, or people like the group the past of those flyers and dallas. it's the fact that one of our two parties is captured by that
faction. the beliefs of those extreme finishes, are the politics of the man who was president of the united states. who put his conspiracies into motion in his final days in office, to conduct the most serious assault against democracy probably since the civil war. that series of events have been documented in several books, it's going to be documented by the committee, there's some huge new scoops coming up in betrayal, by jonathan karlyn abc news. interview -- he showed a total lack of concern for his vice president safety that day, despite the fact that the rioters were spent chanting hang white pants. jonathan karl also reported there are photos of pence are hiding in an underground parking garage, you would not give permission to publish him. trump was asked his directive and -- that smart thermostats were used to hack into georgia's voting machines.
jonathan karl is chief washington correspondent for nbc news, author of betrayal, the final act of the trump show, a look at the conspiracy idled closing days of the trump administration. jonathan, great to have, you want to start on that last point because it sort of perfectly fits here. the idea that the president of the night saying, hey, i found this piece of the internet conspiracy theory made its way to me, i want you to go check out if they were using the smart thermostats to hack the georgia voting machines. embodies the kind of, universe of information that the most powerful man in the world was both consuming, and believing. and it comes across in your book. >> consuming, believing, and asking the top people in the national security apparatus at the federal government to act on this. i, to, right richard hofstadter as a high school student, the paranoia has been out there, the conspiracies have been out there. you can go to the far reaches of the internet and look at all
these qanon things, but what's significant here, is that trump actually asked the top intelligence official in the u.s. government. the director of national intelligence, don ratcliffe to look into this. and look into other conspiracy theories. and as chief of staff, mark meadows, if it wasn't looking at wireless thermostats made in china, controlling machines in georgia. it was, it tally in military satellites use to switch votes through the dominion machines. or, server farms in germany. these were all things that were pursued at the highest levels. meadows himself, you see any emails and documents that have been released, now, by the department of justice, asking top doj officials to investigate. i also learned that this crazy italian, italy gate conspiracy, was january 2nd. this same day as the raffensperger call. meadows had the acting defense secretary, chris miller, meet with the lieutenant general who
is in charge of the defense intelligence agency, and the chief of staff at the pentagon, an emergency saturday meeting to talk about getting to the bottom of this italy conspiracy. nuts, but it's at the highest levels of government. >> this was, again, these are the kinds of things that along continuity, florida has been used by the communists to brainwash americans into supplicant's. decades and decades in the making. this is of that type, right? that there is some italian satellite this changing votes. you've got meadows convening an emergency meeting of the doj, also pushing the department of justice to put the weight of the u.s. government behind it. >> there was a scene in betrayal, where the president himself is acting the director of national intelligence to look into this stuff. and he explains, look, the director of national intelligence, we don't investigate, that's the fbi who
investigates. that's not our thing. >> well, can you please ask the fbi director -- trying to say please, but he asked him to ask the fbi director to look into this. and there's a reason why he's asking genre flip to do this, because the president is not on speaking terms with his own fbi director chris way, because he wanted to fire him. so he's asking him to look into it, and ray said it's not only my thing. and trump actually says to him, but you're the dni, it ahead of all the intelligence agencies, and the fbi is one of those agencies. just unbelievable, and he doesn't actually call the fbi and asked them if they have looked into this crazy conspiracy theory revolving and term county in michigan, those voting machines being controlled out of europe. totally not stuff. you're expected to be out there, but not to be something that the president of the united states is asking the top intelligence official in the u.s. government to act on. >> we should note, again, and this comes across in your
county and others. obsessively. these are not passing idle fancies, in the days after the election, the obsession of everyone in the president and his circle is on essentially substantiating the lie, that the election was stolen. essentially all resources are devoted towards that end. >> all resources, all means necessary, and he tries to motivate, to activate the entire u.s. government to this effort. the pentagon, the justice department, he was blocked by the way -- then under jeffrey rosen. and then of course, even in january, you have the scene where he's talking to jeffrey clark, the head of the environmental division, with no experience in any of this whatsoever, to take over as the acting attorney general so he could finally have somebody to use the resources to. seized voting machines,
fortunately there are people along the way who said no, and all other senior officials in the justice department threatened to resign if clark was made acting attorney general. but he was willing to do anything, and everything to overturn the election. and there's a connection i should note between's ability to get what he wanted out of the mechanisms of the u.s. government whether it's pressuring raffensperger, and the doj. ultimately resorting to essentially hurling the crowd at the capitol. basically what happens is you can't get a doj, he can't get it out of the people who tries to bully. but he ends up doing is going down to the podium, and the associated figures that we're gonna talk about next. sort of giving him a last shot of when he was unable to secure before that. jonathan karl, whose new book betrayal, the final act of the trump show is out now, thanks very much don. so we film in is a senior political reporter --
january six committees investigations into the insurrection of the capital, the latest pieces titled a congressional subpoena is the latest in a long line of legal entanglements for the oath keepers and proud boys. she joins me now. so we, we play that sound, and that sort of in from a sound in the opening of chris wallace asking donald trump to denounce him and he said stand back and stand by. we know they were present, you can see the video footage, they are present there in washington in the run up to january jonathan karl six, there are multiple members who have been indicted now we've got congressional subpoenas, walk me through what these subpoenas are the significance. what subpoenas show is that the committee is focused not just on the high level political actors around -- but also at probing the various actors and groups particularly, extremist groups that were involved, not just didn't being there on january 6th but
organizing hideaways in advance to be on the ground. to be in washington and trying to understand what they were planning to do. what their goal wasn't being here. up to hundred to people who have been arrested and charged in connection with the riot, many have said, i didn't plan on the violence. i didn't plan on coming here to make trouble. but what prosecutors have alleged is up for members of the oath keepers, for members of the -- that they in fact have been exactly what they were planning to do, when they came to washington on january six. >> here is a bit from the subpoena of the proud boys including harry enrique punter. real on this number 19, 20, 20 a stop to steal protests was announced for 2026 on 2020. one on december 20, nine ontario posted the following message on the, probably will not be wearing our traditional black and yellow, we would be incognito, and will spread a pass down count d.c. in smaller teams, who knows, we might just an all-black for the occasion. obviously pulling at this thread that there was
coordination in planning for something on that they, among at least this group in others. >> right. there have been indictments against several leaders of the proud boys organization, notably, not ontario who have been arrested in charge of connection with previous criminal activity that he has pleaded guilty to and is now in fact in jail serving a five month sentence for. he has not been charged in connection with january six. the several leaders have been accused of using various messaging platforms in advance to january six to arrange various, discussing strategies, talking about the needs to stay out of trouble the night before. because january six was going to be the big day. and they have claimed as a defense that they were not planning for violence, that they were [inaudible]
of violence. but what has troubled judges that have kept some of these clients in jail, is the extent of prior communication. the extent of prior coordination among members and among leadership of these known extremist groups that have ties to donald trump. that have ties to roger stone. that have ties to alex jones. it is continuing to connect the thread among a relatively small group of people that the committee is also interested in. >> yes, and when we say ties to roger stone, we mean literally providing his security today's living up to this. this is not some connect the dots sort of string and thumb tack at the board. like if they were giving him security. we should also note, that one -- >> in photographs, next to him, behind him. >> yes it's well documented. and one of the things that are true is the rhetoric, and some of the things that are document, calling for a traders that. this is extremely hidden
violent rhetoric. and heated violent rhetoric is not per se against a lot, depending on the context for the first the membered of judas prudence. but in the once of the committee of what led to the bottom of what led to the verge of the violence on the capitol, -- >> and i imagine the committee is also interested in the oath keepers for a number of reasons, but one of which being that several defendants charged in the conspiracy related to the oath keepers, not the proud boys, have admitted that they were involved in stashing guns in a hotel room for genius. with the idea that they were going to be available to their members. if something went down. and what exactly they were expecting to have been, what their plan was, isn't quite clear yet. that hasn't come out in the proceedings. but we have several defendants pleading guilty and saying that this was part of the plan. that we brought guns to this hotel. there are civilians footage of the rifle casing being wheeled
out in a hotel cart. so you know, it is not just more fuss of what they were planning to do. some of the groups are bringing firearms to the region to be prepared for something. and what? i imagine the committee would really like to. no >> zoe tillman, who has been doing fantastic work on tracking. this thank you very much joey. >> thank you chris. >> coming, up the verdict that could help bankrupt the modern rights supremacist movement, a charlottesville jury finds the organizers of the deadly unite the right rally liable for tens of millions of dollars in damages. i'll talk to one of the people behind that lawsuit, after this. t, after this just one pill a day. 24 hours. zero heartburn. because life starts when heartburn stops. take the challenge at prilosecotc dot com. no, he's not in his room. ♪♪
of far-right protesters and neo-nazis descended upon charlottesville virginia for a two d rally known, us unite the right. and on that first night, they carried tiki torches, chanted things like jews will not replace us. and on the second day, in about white nationalists with the group, plowed his car into a group of counter protesters, killing 32 year old heather -- today after deliberating for over three. days a jury concluded that nine counter protesters are entitled to financial compensation from those very same white supremacist. some sensual company station, awarding them more than $25 million in damages. the jury deadlock unfilled to reached a decision on whether
the defendants had raged in a race based violence conspiracy. which is illegal under a federal law known as the ku klux klan act. , amy spitalnick, it's a director of the organization that reprimanded the plaintiffs and she defends and represents. >> amy first i get your reaction to what was sort of a split verdict although all of the claims that were found were found in the plaintiffs favor, what was your reaction to that? >> look, at the end of the day this is an overwhelming victory for our plaintiffs. the jury and the very clear message that violent hate won't go unanswered. that there will be accountability. and there will be consequences. they found the defendants liable for civil conspiracy, for rachel religious ethnic harassment, violence. and they found james beale for assault and battery, and intent infliction of emotional
distress. so this was an emotional victory for the plaintiffs who, for the last four years, fought tirelessly for some semblance of justice and accountability in the aftermath of unite the right. and i think it is not the most crucial in a moment where we have seen such little accountability to get such a resounding large win. against these extremists. >> it is 2021. you just mentioned this is four years in the making. tell me about the origin of this lawsuit. how it came about, and how we have gotten to this day. >> absolutely, for years a long time. it has been a long hard road for our plaintiffs and our team but we are so incredibly proud of this outcome. in 2017, when unite the right happened, it was very clear from a lead social media, another evidence that came out in the immediate aftermath, that would happen was in an accident. but what it happened had to have been planned, carefully, meticulously in advance. and that was of course the premise of this lawsuit. and so with in two months of
unite the right, our plaintiff filed this case alleging a racially motivated conspiracy. this was to attack people based on the, race the religion, and their willingness to defend their rights and their neighbor. and we have incredible legal team led by karen, done robbie kaplan, and so many others and our plaintiffs. nine charlottesville community members who were grievously injured. some during the torch much on friday night. including a number of uva students. and some during the violence on saturday. including the car attacker were so many of our plaintiffs were very significantly injured. and so, the idea here is a simple one. if there is racist, antisemitic, violence, there needs to be accountability. and it is all the more important when the doj led by then, a tierney general judge sessions seemed unlikely to pursue these sorts of cases with any enthusiasm. and so we were incredibly proud
to support the plaintiffs in bringing this case. i'm bringing october 17th into four years nearly to the day to get this to trial for a number of reasons including the discovery challenges with some of the defendants, covid, a global pandemic. but we got here and certainly the verdict today sends a resounding clear message about the importance of this sort of accountability. >> seems like there will be tangible material for the defendants as well. i mean, these are individuals who i think are entirely did not have counsel, they represented themselves. i think that was a financial decision lightly. and they have substantial damages that they now have to pay, right? >> that is right. actually the number of defendants have did have representation but if you did not. including fairly notorious white supremacy's leader richard spencer, and kris campbell. but even before this trial we saw major financial impacts,
operational impacts on these defendants. our plaintiffs won five figure sanctions against certain defendants for lounging court orders. richard talked about how this case is financially devastated. him a number of the defendants talk about how this case had already dismantled some of their hegar. so even before, trial we've seen the impacts, civil litigation can. have and now with these multimillion dollar, judgments we will have a far greater impacts, sending a very clear signal of course did the defendants. these are not just compensatory damages for our plaintive endure, steep a punitive damages to help to deter them for doing something like this moving forward. but it also sends a clear message to other extremist looking, on that if they are part of this sort of racist, antisemitic, violent, hate. there would be consequences. >> all right amy spitalnick, their group secured a big victory today, thank you for making some time with. us >> thank you so much chris. >> coming, up president biden's big announcement will bring
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americans are facing high gas prices is because oil producing countries and large companies have not ramped up the supply of oil quickly enough to meet the demand and the smaller supply means higher prices globally for oil. so today, i'm announcing, the largest ever released from the u.s. strategic petroleum reserve, to help supply we need as we recover from this pandemic. >> the past half century the price of gas runs high, has bedeviled presidents of both parties. it's a price that makes a big difference in peoples weekly expenses, and it's the single
biggest price prominently displayed in our lives. tons of political science show it's quite salient to voters, and it colors voters overall perception about the economy and the job the incumbent president is doing. the truth is firsthand incumbent president is there is not really a president can do about it. it's why today's announcement by president biden about his plan to release patrolling for the this tricky jake reserved help combat the high prices, it's pretty much the tried and true method to attempt to do something about a problem that political views don't have much control over. i want to turn to someone who has decades of experiments with this, john podesta, counsel to president barack obama worries printed responsible for corn aiding the court administrations climate policy, at his co-founder of the advocacy group climate power. he joins me now. this is one of those great issues, if you're out of power, whether republican or democrat,
and you've got someone in the other party in office in the white house and gas prices are high. remember, this was the case in the summer of 2008, back in the summer of 2000 of his big deal. what does it look like from inside the white house if you're dealing with this, knowing that there isn't a time you could do about affecting the price? >> well, you know, chris, first of all let me say that it may seem strange given the lead into this segment, happy thanksgiving. but i think that the president has limited tools, but he has some tools. and i think the president, today, demonstrated not only in relief in the u.s. strategic petroleum reserve, but you able to coordinate that released with releases from china, from india, from south korea, from japan, from the uk. that the consuming nations can do something, to at least stabilize the price, and hopefully putting again in a
downward trajectory. it's not going to have a massive impact, but i think it can have, in fact a leveling off price, and pushing prices down over the long term. but at the end of the day, where the president really can do, is get the u.s. off its oil addiction, so they were not held hostage to the whims of saudi arabia, of russia, of the major oil companies like exxon and chevron who are reporting record profits. more than six billion dollars in the last quarter for exxon, nearly six billion for chevron. and yet, they're gouging consumers at the pump. so i think the president can send a strong signal that he needs business, he sent a letter to the ftc asking them to look for any at tv that indicated that they were trying to use means that we're perhaps
beyond the law to jack up prices. and the chair has taken that under advisement, and he'll do a good job looking at that. but you're right in your lead in, there's only so much a president can do, because these are prices set at the global level, and that's why we need to get off the addiction. >> there are set up a global level, this is also the weirdest, the strangest global economic environment in many years. it's just never come out of it wasn't a century pandemic, and lockdowns, and supply and demand mismatch. here point about oil, there's a weird political aspect to this, this is how jan ever hat put it, biden must attack to conflict in agenda simultaneously, must address rising energy prices, you must not be seen by the progressive wing of the democratic party has been pro oil in promoting domestic output. i think that sort of gets it. the bigger issue here is that we don't want to be dependent
on the carbon intensive sources of energy that are exacerbating climate change, we have to get off them. but the political pressure in the moments, in any given moment, is always cheaper and easier access to precisely those feels. >> look, i don't think there's a dilemma here. i think joe biden ran and got elected to protect the middle class. in a short term, and in the long term. so in the short term, i think he's trying to increase supplies so that prices will stabilize and come down. in the long term, his proposed build back better which has passed the house, it's pending in the senate. it is critical that a pass. to both deal with the climate crisis, but also deal with the long term energy dependency. if it does pass, analysts have predicted that it will reduce energy bills in households, working class and middle class households by $500.
so, now i think he's got to do two things at once, really. he's got to address the pain points that people are feeling right now. he's got to get us on a better path. on the big investments that he's put into the build back better bill, to promote clean energy, to promote electric vehicles, to promote clean buildings and clean power. the long term solution to our being essentially at the whim and mercy of saudi arabia. >> john podesta, always a pleasure to talk to you, thank you very much, sir. how good thanksgiving. >> good to see you chris, happy thanksgiving. >> we've covered at length of ongoing multifaceted attacks on american democracy. i know it seems bleak out there. but coming up, the case against political despair, or as i call it, the bad feeling. don't go anywhere. it, the bad feeling. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. nurse mariyam sabo
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two inevitability, death and taxes. and now there is a real chance that will have to live with rising prices for a long time to come. >> the reagan administration still is running into criticism of its program to support high interest rates in order to fight inflation. >> the help of the agents inflation economy, especially with the unemployment rate approaching 11%. >> that was a brief survey of the economic landscape in the first two years of rock ronald reagan's presidency. average inflation rate topped 10%. unemployment reached 10.8 by the end of 1982. and high interest rates made conditions even worse. this is not how things were supposed to go in the early 19 80s, reagan was elected from a wave of optimism. and the former movie star was going to turn around the stagnant jimmy carter economy with a new vision of economic concern criticism and tax and, -- by the second year of office firmly in another recession,
reagan's approval rating sank down from high 60s to the low 40s. democrats managed to mobilize opposition to the economy and win 26 seats in the 1982 midterms. but then, things started to turn around. the economy recovered. inflation and unemployment were on the decline, productivity was, up reagan's approval rating rebounded in 1984. just in time for him to win the highest, biggest electoral college landslide in american history. all of which is to say, the conditions in the early years of presidency, no matter how dire, don't really reflect their electoral process when it comes time for election. president bill, clinton also faced a rocky start in this presidency, inheriting the recession of the early 1990s. failing to pass a signature health care legislation. democrats, got clocked in the 1994 midterms. but as of reagan, conditions approved by the time for reelection clinton won handily in 1996. he looked back to the early obama years, mike reagan,
president obama was elected on a platform of change, and recovery. but he also, like joe, biden has inherited a brutal set of crises from the recovery of the economic collapse was slower than people. hoped it was part in due to the economic stimulus that needed it -- there was the push to pass the affordable care act that also dented obama's popularity. democrats, once again, got clocked in the midterms. only for obama to win reelection two years later. so, it may be obvious when i bring this up. now we've got high inflation, supply chain issues that have heard president biden's approval rating thing. price of gas is. well democrats are worried biting their nails, bracing for a blot in midterms, and a year from, now i would just say a little perspective is worthwhile to hear. a lot can happen in three years. a lot can happen in one year. as jamele bowie put it in the new york peacetime. biden is done. now if the usual pattern is any
indication who recover. in the same way that the decline was largely out of his, hands will have to remember the upswing was as well. and so while, many like, myself might seem a self of political indictee. it is as important as ever at this most perilous time to hold on of what historical analogies we can find. next, i'll talk to new york times color mrs. michelle goldberg on what to do about all of this. s. show—be the light show. make your nights anything but silent. and ride in a sleigh that really slays. because in a cadillac, tradition is yours to define. so visit a cadillac showroom, and start celebrating today. ♪ ♪
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i have had this creeping sense of exits than shull dread when it comes to the state of american politics. i have been calling, it the bed viewed. and i think that it's a result of the tension between a normal dynamic of the competitive two party democracy and the growing anti-democratic tendencies of one of those two parties. and a functioning two party system, you expect partitions back and forth between the two sides. that is what we've been calling the political gravity. one party is not going to win all the time in all the pieces
of the country. there are not. right now, one of those two parties is controlled by a party who is quite aggressively rising across democracy. tough increase fighting with violence. in a means to. part that radicalization has not seemingly had any real negative effect on the party's electoral prospects. the fact that republican glenn youngkin win in virginia just months after the degree of the violent mob stormed the capitol is proof enough of that. and that is fine, as far as it, goes it is normal. but the normal back in fourth of politics right now seems perilous in a way it has not. before because of one-sided winds they cannot be trusted with, part we cannot take for granted that they would have receded, again. michelle goldberg is the opinion column is for new york times, i spoke to her for her new piece out today about the bad feeling, titled, the problem of political despair and she joins me now. michelle, i really like the column. >> i mean, part of it is just
what you do as a writer. it is something that is really bothering, you if something is tormenting, you you try to analyze it and articulated. partly as a way just to get out of your head and on to the page, but also in a way how we speak to the people, we've been doing this long enough you get a sense if something is really eating at you, it is probably eating at other people to. and i think what this column, the response to it suggests, is that a lot of other people feel the same way. >> yes and i want to read one of the things that you say, hear you say one redeeming feature of trump's presidency is that it was possible to look forward to the date of one americans can finish it. covid two one seemed like something we could largely put behind us when we got vaccinated. now we are past that an american life is still comprehensively awful. dystopia no longer has an expiration date. i do think that there is a real sense that there was a window in the spring where it felt like, all right, we are back to normal here.
whatever it, is we are going to get -- a brothers, wedding vaccinated, you can go do stuff. and then the combination of the fact that the economy is still very weird and also delta it just had this sucking back into the quicksand. >> right, and then in that turn, it's sort of empower the republican party which is why we are looking at just sort of mumps after january six. months after an attempt of a coup attempt. that the voters are going to return these people to power. a party that if anything has grown only more radicalized since donald trump left office. and what is so deeply horrifying is in that republicans would take power when they have public sentiment behind them, right? i do find it upsetting that, as you said they are sort of anti-democratic term doesn't appear to have cost them electorally. but it is normal in a democratic system that with public sentiment is behind, you you get to win elections. what is so frightening is the
idea that you get to win elections and then you fix the election going forward. that is what happens in authoritarian systems all around the world. and i think it's what we're increasingly seeing at the state level here. and what we will see at the national level. in republicans have the oval office. again right, and that is exactly it >> it's that every back and forth, every normal kind of cycle and pendulums of american politics which would, we would talk about on the show. the party in power loses the midterm. they're aesthetic public opinion. if gas prices are high they are angry at the incumbent. that all of those are flirting with the handing power to a party that has proven itself to be not trustworthy. in wielding. it in a fundamental sense, so it feels like something that the contract has been ripped here even as we go through normal politics. >> right, and we are heading to a point where republicans will take power, but that if opinion turns again, we said the nature
of public opinion in this country is kind of their mom static. if public opinion turns again, it won't matter. because of the way gerrymandering is being used to cement republican controlled the, house you have these states that are basically 50/50. democrat republican states that are going to give you know, 60 70 80% of their congressional seats to republicans. you have a supreme court that has struck down anti gerrymandering laws. or the has ruled that the constitution doesn't allow them to full on gerrymandering. a court that does that because the workings of a kind of minority therrien presidential, system democrats, seven out of the last eight elections -- their votes. due to all of these counter authoritarian institution in american, life they are reinforcing themselves. it is just like a bowl of gun structures slowly started squeezing the life out of
popular democracy. >> and i guess the question is what is the antidote here. one thing i think is true is that it is very different than post 2009. there is a lot of differences. one of them, i think that that was a little bit of how liberals are fighting people that, left people who oppose, bush people oppose the iraq war, they were fighting so hard, barack obama got elected it felt like a historic moment because it. was i am a little, bit i'm gonna take a step back for politics. this feels different, why? and what do you see as the antidote. >> i think it feels different because it is not the people who are stepping back out of the sense of relief, right? i think the people who are pulling back to progressives are really very engaged. but i think plenty of people find this so poisonous that in order to preserve their own sanity the sort of have to take a step. back the total political involvement that was the aim of getting trump out of office.
got people threw themselves into for four years isn't sustainable. and so i think in order for people to get involved once again, there needs to be people in the party who say that, if you fight for this, democracy can be saved. and in order to do that you need to have some sort of path to voting reform legislation. you need to have some sort of path for democracy legislation. >> yes i think that's very well said. i'll be here, and i denied out, bad feeling or not. if you are here to, macho goldberg will be in the pages of new york times, twice a week, if i'm not mistaken. >> that's correct. >> thank you michelle goldberg. >> thank you. >> tonight the show rachel maddow show starts right, now. >> thank you very much my, friends thank you at home for joining us this. our hillary clinton is going to be here joining us live tonight. this is going to be my first chance to interview her since before the 2020 election.
i have a lot of stuff stored up to ask her. i also, have to tell you, i rip through the political thriller that she just wrote with the great author of louise penny. they co-wrote a political thriller it's hillary clinton's first novel. i read i read everything louise penny writes anyway. anyways, i read their book so fast it was like somebody was timing me to get through it. we'll talk a little bit about that with secretary clinton. we will talk with her a lot about what is going on in the country right now. i'm really looking forward to that interview.lk but before we get there, i want to give you an important update tonight on a story we have been covering closely. this is a story that is more than four decades in the making. we have been covering it for a while now just because it is a through-the-looking-glass, absolutely bizarre, impossible to believe story out of missouri related to a man named kevin strickland. kevin strickland was 18 years