tv Deadline White House MSNBC November 24, 2021 1:00pm-3:00pm PST
hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york today. an outpouring of emotion in streets outside a courthouse in brunswick, georgia, where today three white men were found guilty of murdering amat arbery a unarmed black man the case that along with the murder of george floyd helped spark ana nationwide uprising in the name of justice for black lives. today the jury -- 11 of them white, appearing after more than 11 hours of deliberation to agree with prosecutors to say that travis mcmichael, his father gregory and their neighborhood william "roddy" bryan jumped to conclusions about a quote, black man running down street. they confronted him and travis
shot ahmaud arbery and killed him. the scene caught on video because bryan filmed it. michael mcmurder and travis mcmichael and william bryan each face life in prison. quote, guilty, guilty, get, after nearly two years of pain, suffer asking wondering if ahmad's killers would be held to account the family has some justice. while today is not one for celebration, it is one for reflection. this case, by all accounts should have been opened and closed the violent stalking and lynching of ahmaud arbery was documented on video for the world to witness. but yet, because of the deep cracks, flaws, and biases in our systems we were left to wonder if we would ever see justice. america you raised your voice
force ahmad. now is not the time to let them be quiet. keep marching, keep fighting for what is right, and never stop run forth ahmad. this afternoon, emotional reaction from ahmaud arbery's family. >> back in 2020 -- i never thought this day would come. but god is good. >> yes, he is. >> yes, he is. >> i just want to tell everybody thank you. thank you for those who marched, those who prayed, most of all, the ones who prayed. >> yes, lord. >> thank you, god. >> yes, lord. >> thank you. >> our friend, the reverend al sharpton underscored the moment, which he says has made history. >> let the word go forth all over the world that a jury of 11 whites and one black in the deep south stood up in the courtroom and said that black lives do matter. >> amen! >> let it be clear that almost ten years after trayvon, god
used wanda and marcus's son to prove that if we kept marching and kept fighting, we would make you hear us. in the state of georgia, a state known for segregation, a state known for jim crow. and you turned it around. >> yes, lord you. >> took an young, unarmed boy that they thought was worthless, and you put his name in history today. years from now, decades from now, they will be talking about a boy named ahmad arbery that taught this country what justice looks like. >> that breaking news is where we start today. joining us now, the reverend al sharpton, hose of msnbc's "politics nation" and president of the national action network. he was in the courtroom when the verdict was read. also joining us, harry litman, and jonathan lemere is here.
rev, you became part of the story -- we will get to that later in the show. but first, tell me how the arbery family is doing today. >> well, they -- i was sitting between the mother and father, holding hands, praying, when the jury came in. and when the guilty verdict was announced, wanda broke down and started crying. and marcus, the father, just jumped up and started screaming. we had to take him out of the courtroom. i think as much confidence as they exuded throughout the several months, and as you said, i was involved through national action network in the case even before the video was discovered, they always said they believed they could win. but you never know until it happens. and i think the emotional outburst was a relief. we had lunch right before the verdict was announced.
we were having lunch, marcus, and attorney crump and i when we got the call to come back there was a verdict. and they just was preparing themselves for the worst. i have gone through so many trials that looked gooded from the dealoe trial to the bell trial, and then got not guilty verdicts. so i was preparing them for the worst. but thank god it didn't half. but it shows it can happen. it showed what justice felt like. until we change a lot of these laws, and until we have federal laws in place, this will be an aberration, and we cannot -- in a day of jubilation -- put down our work and put down the efforts toward real systemic change. >> rev, i want to ask you about a couple of things that you said in that clip that i aired. first, to sort of remind everyone -- i am sure you don't need reminding. i don't mean that.
but to bring up trayvon, and say ten years seines trayvon martin -- what in your view is the difference ten years later? have things changed? >> i think that ten years ago -- as know, i was very involved in trayvon, through the national action network. i think ten years of people of all races. let's not forget, you mentioned george floyd, that we saw as many whites, and in some cases more whites at marches and rallies. i think that the persistence of the movement that all of us were part of has changed a lot of people's attitudes. and when you look at the behavior of some of the council attacking black ministers like me, calling the people a lynch mob that were peacefully praying outside when you had over 300 ministers last thursday having a prayer vigil. the one defense attorney talking
about -- that ahmad didn't have on socks covering his long, dirty toes -- i think that people have become so sensitive that that doesn't work anymore. they underestimated the whites on that jury. yes, it was 11 to 1. i was concerned about the makeup of the jury. but they were playing on the big tree and the bias on that jury that clearly wasn't there. they looked past race and looked at the evidence. i think that was the difference between now and ten years ago. ten years ago, i think the country was not as sensitized. i think we are where we need to be, but i think we are on the road. and we have got to complete that journey. >> you also talked about location of this trial and its significance. you said n a state known for segregation, jim crow, where a black man that the killers thought were worthless, his name will be known forever.
talk about the impact of the location, where this trial took place. >> georgia has been one the states known back through slavery days, back through the civil war, and totally through jim crow, had a governor that chased blacks with an ax handle. georgia has been a mainstay in terms of representing the interposition and nullification that georgia native martin luther king talked about in his "i have a dream" speech. for this to happen in georgia a year after -- not even a year after we saw a black and a jew elected to the senate in georgia said georgia can change, if we can see electoral changes in georgia and then judicial change in georgia, we can change the nation. we can't stop now. there are still no federal laws. we have not legislated this.
but we have shown the possibility. if it can happen in georgia, it can happen all over this country. we must finish the task. >> harry litman, i am going to ask you to take me through the verdict. trfs mcmichael was found guilty on all counts, including malice murder. gregory mcmichael and william "roddy" bryan found guilty of felony murder but not of malice murder. can you explain that to us. >> sure. malice murder meant for travis, who pulled the trigger he actually acted either intentionally or with an abandoned, malignant heart. and the other two were found not to have had that same kind of intent or malignancy. nevertheless, they joined in the overall enterprise. felony murder holds the same possible penalty. they are both also looking at life in prison because they facilitated, assisted. the theory of the law is they
really sort of pucked up travis. and it was their whole group enterprise that made it possible. so, yes, the jury, very thoughtfully, by the way, said, okay, may be they didn't have the same vile intent as travis, but they were in the overall effort. and they are looking at life in prison for having been part of this enterprise that ended in a murder. >> harry, i want to ask you about the evidence that the jury asked to review. >> yeah. >> and what you sort of thought at the time, and whether that was affirmed by the results. they asked the review the 911 call when greg mcmichael is sort of explain that what the emergency was was, quote, there is a black male running down the street. called 911 and said there is a black male running down the street. that was his emergency. they asked the review that. i wonder when you heard that what you thought of that.
>> yeah. well, i actually thought it was a good sign if by good we mean -- and we do mean conviction here. i mean, it is, i think a day for -- not exactly celebration. some kind of solemnity, but this was a very, very fast deliberation. nine. >> chas against all of them. with different kind of guilt profiles and they come back back in 11 hours. to me, the most consistent interpretation was one or two jurors really wanted to be persuaded that there was, in fact, as the prosecutor had urged, no possible citizen's arrest. and that final 911 call, as opposed to the others, to me, was very strong evidence against them. because he specifically said, he's running. he wasn't seeing him do any crime. the place was abandoned.
if you are looking hard, that, to me, was strong evidence that there was no possible citizen's arrest to make, and it was a way of quelling any final discomfort among any of the jurors that this, in fact, was cold-blooded murder, not excused by any kind of citizen's arrest. >> harry, they asked the review the videotape of the attack. i watched it again today. >> yeah. >> it's hard to imagine, if you watch it, coming to any conclusion other than the conclusion the jury came to. what is the impact of videotape of a crime? and where do you think we are without it? >> it's everything. and you know, as the reverend says, i mean, maybe it shun be this way, but this case sort of -- is sense of justice is sort of deepened by relief with -- not just the rittenhouse case but the legacy of cases in
the deep south from emmett till on forward, video has been a complete game danger. in fact, we saw it in minnesota. people now have the videos and the common practice -- i think it was common -- of just rekrugging a false account after the fact -- of just reconstructing a false account after the fact is now blown out of the water. if there is any irony here, bryan presented it. he took the video and presented the evidence that convicted hip of now with videos and phones ubiquitous, it changed the practice of just saying something after and having people in the community just accept what you say rather than the strange victim, often a person of color. it showed it once again. phones have changed the system of racial justice in this country bigtime. >> i want to read president biden's statement on the verdict
to you, jonathan lemere. ar mad arbery's killing is a devastating reminder of how far we have to go in the fight for racial justice in the country. mr. arbery should be here today celebrating the holidays with his mother and his father. nobody can bring him back to his family and his community but the verdict ensures that those who committed this horrible crime will be punished. while guilty verdict reflect our justice system doing its job that alone is not enough. instead we must recommit ourselves to rebuilding a future of unity and renewed strength where nobody suffers because of the color of their skin. my administration will do the hard work to ensure that equal justice under the law is not just a phrase emblazoned on the wall of the supreme court but a reality for all americans. tell me what that look like. i know police reform is stalled
on capitol hill. tell me what that work includes, if it still includes legislation. >> well, this is a moment, certainly, of triumph in some ways today. but it comes after a period of real frustration for so many of the president's supporters who had frankly lost faith in the justice system in many ways, who just in the last week or so were dealt a blow with the acquittal of kyle rittenhouse, another rishlly charged case that had the national spotlight. and a lot of democrats have been, theically african-americans, upset that this administration and this democratic-controlled congress hadn't done much more on police reform. hadn't done on voting rights. these are sort the civil rights issues of the time. and very little has been done. the president's statement gets at that. this is a step in the right direction, but only a step and a long way has to go. and the white house certainly would like to see police reform revived on capitol hill. but aides i talked to in recent days don't really see a path for
that right now. then of course there is voting rights, which is only going to become more of a hot button issue as the mid terms approach. we know how republican legislators have done to restrict control of the ballot in recent months b. the filibuster standing as an obstacle that also be a tough hill to climb for democrats who may again be disappointed. but this is a president biden, we should be clear, speaks on grief like no other public figure in our lifetime, who suffered so much in his own life and hit those notes again today. i should also note the contrast. last night, his predecessor trump posed for photos with krours -- with kyle rittenhouse in mar-a-lago. rev, i want to come back to
how you became part of this story. the defense attorney tried to keep you and all blast black pastors out of the courtroom. in response, 100 black pastors showed up to short the family. talk about how that happened, whether it is a sign of support for the family, a statement, or whether it was a rebuke to what seemed like a dangerous game that the defense was playing. >> yes. you know, about three and a half weeks ago i preached in savanna. the family -- the mother and father, came the my sermon and asked me, in front of the press, to come to the trial because i had been involved as i said earlier through national action network with the case before there was even a videotape. they did "politics nation," my show on msnbc even before we knew there was a video. i agreed to come. when i came, to my surprise, one of the attorneys used my coming as a case in point to ask for a
mistrial saying that my presence caused possible influence or intimidation of the jury. so i called on 100 ministers to come. and the following week, over 300 came. and i think showed the tradition of the black church, how when we are attacked stan up, and stand up for families like this family. i think again, they underestimated the intelligence -- the judge did not give him a mistrial. and jurors. i think he was playing to a georgia that is in transition to being something different. he thought he was talking to people that you could just scapegoat one civil rights leader's presence or one black preacher's presence and somebody in the jury would be full of such backward behavior they would wouldn't lift the evidence above that. he did that.
i think that was a good thing. he said -- [ no audio ] -- dirty toenails, some animal, or like he's a runaway slave that you have to capture and civilize. none of that worked. that's the good news out of this decision, is that they played a tune that is no longer resonating in many homes, white homes n georgia and around the country. but we've got to make it permanent, by changing laws, because there are many that have not changed. because, let's not forget, less than 24 hours ago, as jonathan just reminded us, you have got kyle rittenhouse that has been celebrated by a former president and been offered a congressional internship. so now you kill people and you become a hero and you are given a congressional internship. so we can't get too carried
away. we are glad about the conviction. we are very happy for wanda and bobby, but we have a lot of work to do. >> the reverend al sharpton. thank you for starting us off. you are on move. grateful we got the talk to you. when we come back, the investigation into the january 6th insurrection turning its focus to law enforcement leading up to that day as we learn more about the congressional committee's subpoena strategy with an eye on investigating coordinated action between extremist groups. next, trump signaling that he is open to sharing material with investigators. we will look at what is expected to be a busy post holiday week for the january 6th select committee. later in the program, the disgraced expresident's lies about his loss have now become essential to republicans' political survival. we will look at party's embrace of the big lie, all at the expense of our democracy. those stories and more after "deadline: white house"
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the january 6th appearing at least to be moving in a break-neck pace in pursuit of the case against the president and his allies and the role they played in fomenting the insurrection. today a parallel track is clearly emerging with a heightened focus on law enforcement and their failures that may have preceded the capitol attack. the "washington post" is reporting the committee is, quote scrutinizing in particular multiple warnings of possible violence that went unheeded by the fbi. the piece on the record source is done harvin former head of
intelligence for d.c. who is described in an earlier report in the "washington post" as, quote, growing desperate in the run-up to january 6th as quote an avalanche of new trips was streaming in. so concerned was he about the threat level that he alerted area hops to empty emergency rooms and stock up your blood banks. let's bring in pete strzok. now to read the post reporting this is one of the focuses of the 1/6 committee seems logical. but i wonder how much credence. i mean, you hear there was a reaction like this from d.c.'s homeland security office, that the hospitals were called, told to empty out, told to stock up on blood because he feared a mass casualty event. would that have been heeded?
should it have been heeded by the fbi? >> well, i think whether or not that one particular item should have been heeded, it was certainly one of the many signals that were available to not only the fbi but all other federal law enforcement agencies around washington, d.c. i mean, lock, what i think is becoming apparent as we watch the prosecutions unfold as we watch the work of the january 6th committee it is very, very clear that in some cases there is an extraordinary amount of planning and coordination for illegal activity that took place well in advance of january 6th. as we see evidence and piece of evidence and piece of evidence coming out as part of these prosecutions it is increasingly difficult to reconcile all of that information with some of the prior statements from not only the fbi and others that were not pieces of information out there, there wasn't any information that would indicate there was some sort of warning that was out there. that difference between the assertion that there was no information or no warning
against all of this information that we are seeing about these conspiracies which are being charged that point to events well predating january 6th create those sort of questions that i think are very reasonable for folks like the january 6th committee to be asking. >> you know, i know it's not a perfect analogy to say if we -- if law enforcement had seen this kind of chatter among foreign terrorists they would have moved more quickly because foreign terrorists don't enjoy first amendment freedoms and liberties, they are not aligned with either political party. i wonder, even by the higher standard for a domestic threat, especially witness aligned with a sitting president. do you feel like knowing everything we know -- i know hindsight that's crystal clear and not able to any law enforcement prior to the time. but do you think that higher bar maybe met? >> it looks like there was a lot of information squarely in the
fbi's purview to observe and collect. if we look at the spring and summer of 2020 and all the investigative activity that went into the black lives matter and antifa protests throughout the country and on the west coast, the investigations by then attorney general bill barr there is an analogous comparing and contrasting of the investigative posture then versus what led up to the january 6th timetable. it is important to remember. this isn't just to look backward. this is important because we need to understand, if there were problems, what those fixes might be, because this is something that is still an ongoing threat that's going to continue to be an ongoing threat, particularly going into the midterm elections here a few months away. we have to understand if there are stemmic problems, problems with the law can guidelines. we need to identify those quickly and need to fix them so we are best prepared to face the threat going forward. >> i mean, betsy, the idea that
the 1/6 committee's mission is to limited to this sort of look back really is obliterated by what pete is saying. the current threat is domestic violent extremism. what do you make of this reporting this the post about donald harvin. he said he met twice with investigators, and this focus on law enforcement? >> it's a big deal. it's significant. january 6th was not an intelligence failure. it was a leadership failure. people like harvin played a key role in ringing alarm bells as loudly and as widely as they could. but people in law enforcement in positions of leadership made deliberate choices no to the do what people like harvin knew needed to be done.
one thin that you and i talked about on this show a couple months back was a phone call where 300 law enforcement leaders around the country just a day or two before the january 6th attack talked about how to coordinate if january 6th turned into a mass casualty event. harvin played an instrumental role in coordinating that call, bringing literally hundreds of law enforcement leaders together the talk about the possibility that the nightmare situation would play out. and that situation did play out. it's important. it's also a no-brainer, frankly, that the committee would want to get his expertise. we also learned the committee has spoken to a whistle blower who made eyebrow raising allegations about failure within the capitol police department to respond the violence as it unfolded. there is so much for the committee to look at that will have a direct influence into how
they think about legislating to prevent another january 6th from happening. it is a lot for them to work with. i think the biggest question is do they have time to do that work in a thorough and exhaustive way. want to ask you about another piece of reporting in the post that says that -- this is some of the documents that were produced by mr. harvin, the document saw a bureau official sought to classify one set of warnings in december as a domestic terrorism issue but the threat assessmentways closed and passed along to d.c. police with the notation, does not warrant further investigation at this time. do you have any understanding of how those decisions were made? >> it boggles the mind. there is a culture within the intelligence community in the united states as erring on the side overand over and overof overclassifying things that should not be classified. it is a mistake we have seen across the board in many places. the fact that a threat like this was initially shielded by classification, which would have
kept more people from being able the see and it think about maybe to handle it and the fact that it was underestimated is both disturbing and not surprising. another thing that the january 6th attack just highlights is the extent to which within law enforcement, federal, state, local, across the board, struggles with a widespread bias of underestimating the threat from far right and white supremacist extremists. we see it regularly, we it retunely. it is part of the reason that the warnings about the attack on the capitol on january 6th, which were manifold, which were across the board, were not taken seriously. it is part of the reason that building didn't have the security that the people in that building needed to have. it is something that law enforcement officials have to seriously grapple with. they have toers isly look in the mirror and think how can they rid themselves of that bias of
underestimating the thread that domestic violence has? pete, is law enforcement looking in the mirror and asking themselves that question. >> i hope so. that's a hard question to ask. one, can you do it internally. two, is that the sort of thing where somebody like an he can turn january 6th committee or somebody like an inspector general is better placed to ask. but i think betsy raises an absolutely valid point. there is reasonable question to be asked whether or not the fact of the matter that the protesters on january 6th were largely white, were largely male, played into any sort of implicit bias with law enforcement. there is a reasonable question to be asked about whether or not the department of justice and the fbi, after knee jerk reactions to the infant isle tantrums coming out of the trump white house responding by firing team created a culture where folks didn't want to get sideways with the president or people who supported him. these are tough questions, they are hard questions to answer
honestly even in private. but they are questions that need to be addressed and need to be answered. hopefully, again, the reason and the purpose isn't to fix the blame. it's to fix the problem. so if there is an issue there, let's identify it and let's position ourselves for the future so we can prevent this from happening go en. >> pete, i just want to ask you what your sense of the investigation being done after seeing the two batches of subpoenas this week focusing on following the money, the subpoenas for sort the folks that saw the money run lieu the 405c 4 in and out, paid advertising. and then all the extremist groups that helped gather people accompanying trump's upper circle, al qaeda alex jones, roger stone. what do you make of this batch as a reflection of where the investigation stands, in your view? >> i think it is a logical
progression. uniformly, you typically work from the bottom and start working your way up. you want to identify the facts on the ground and from that determine who were the leaders, who conspiracies existed, how were things funded? who were talking between groups and coordinating it? was there any coordination between the protesters, between the people funding it, between the white house or congress? i think what you see from the january 6th committee subpoenas is you see this movement upward. you are looking at people who were in a coordinated role, people who were engaged in funding, people who were engaged with talking to the media and congress. i think it is a good pregnantion. it indicates the committee is moving forward and up the chain and moving towards the key questions americans i think really want to know. it is one thing to ask what motivated somebody who got swept up the in what was happening on the grounds of the capitol.
but it is important to understand what was behind that activity? was there coordination? most importantly, how high did it go? did it go up to the white house and to trump and his surrounding supporters? those are the key questions that are important not only for thek public to know but certainly one i hope the department of justice is looking at as well as they move forward in investigating these from a ville speaker ekt i have 123450 pete strzok thank you for being part of our coverage, betsy sticks around. the investigation into 1/6 is expected to pick up significantly next week. we will look at what may be to come. and what deadlines are fast approaching. that's next. 's next. they customize my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. how about a throwback? ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪
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the next two weeks will be critical for the six slektd committee and its investigation into the capitol insurrection. tuesday marked a deadline to produce documents for more than a dozen former trump staffers and key allies. in the coming weeks, a whole slew of people are expected to appear for their depositions, including some very high-profile names in trump world. people like former press secretary kayleigh mcenany and adviser steven miller as well as former new york city police commissioner bernie karrick who was reportedly a key layer at the willard hotel in d.c. which in the words of jamie raskin served as the headquarters of the insurrection. politico reports karrick is expected to comply with his
subpoena. even though he claims voter frauds even though we know and bill barr knows there wasn't any. they report, according to the little politico reveed, which his lawyer sent tuesday to panel's chair, his participation in that meeting is a pab ri indication. karrick's cooperation could be significant as he is the only person who worked on trump's post election legal matters. betsy, this is your great reporting. take us through the two pieces of the kerric story. >> this certainly looks like an uncomfortable error on the part of the january 6th select committee. and their subpoena letter they sent to kerik they cited bob
woodward and bob kossa's book as well as other supporting evidence to claim they believe kerik was at this january 6th meeting. but his lawyer went to the book and found it didn't refer to kerik at all. that appears to be an error on the part of the committee. he was in new york dealing with a family medical emergency emergency. and he is demanding an apology. at the same time, what is interesting is almost in the same breath kerik continues and says he wants to comply with the subpoena. his compliance would be a big deal. he have shoulder-to-shoulder with rudy giuliani at the infamous 4 season's total landscape and press conference when july jewel pushed a bunch of the notable allegations about voter fraud which of course have not played out whatsoever. and kerik worked on that team
not as a lawyer but as an investigator. he was working on it while giuliani was working as a personal lawyer on those efforts. kerik's cooperation means somebody who was on that team is going to be producing records and answering questions. very importantly, trump himself said today he's fine with kerik cooperating. one plot twist to keep in mind is that trump and kerik signalled that kerik wants to testify publicly. that would be quite a show if that were to happen. i don't think the committee wants that to happen. the next big question the committee has to sort out is does kerik sit for an interview if there are not tv cameras covering the entire thing. but we do know he will be producing documents.
>> kerik got a pardon from donald trump. the tv package might be a requirement. nbc news is reporting the u.s. circuit court of appeals for the district of columbia notified lawyers for trump the house committee and the national archives they should be prepared to address whether the cart has the legal authority to even hear this dispute. the fact that the court is wondering about its authority to take up the case is telling. courts are protective of their jurisdictions. if trump's lawsuit is dismissed it would pave the way for the january 6th committee to get documents from the archives. we know that is something donald trump is desperate to have not happen. any sense on how this news has landed both on the committee side and on the trump side? >> this is undeniably a blow to the former president. he and his legal team have tried to block this and have received some stays along the way to
prevent these documents were being hands over to the committee. now with the court suggesting it potentially doesn't even have the right to hear this, that it is not in its jurisdiction, that would seem to telegraph they are not going to get in the way of these documents being handed to the committee. certainly those on capitol hill are pleased with this. those who are trying to -- part of the committee and trying to get their hands on as much as information as they can from january 6th. a text i got from someone in trump world a couple hours ago was a four-letter word which i won't repeat now. needless to say, they are less pleased about this development. they are not going to give up the fight. they are hoping they will come up with other legal avenues, they say, but it's probably not a great news. and it just goes to show, just the ongoing that circus this is. let's remember, to pick up betsy's great reporting, benny kerik was police commissioner. giuliani was a former convicted
felon and received this pardon in the last days of trump's presidency. certainly, the committee is casting a wider net. members of oath keepers and proud boys also received subpoenas in recent days. roger stone, a.m. alex jones, conspiracy theorists who helped fuel flames of the big lie. they know they are up against the clock. they want to try to get this wrapped by spring, before midterm season. they are clearly in a full-court press between now and then. >> betsy, you have to work in the white house. i obviously don't work in this white house, but i worked in a white house. it is so paper driven that the idea that all the paper, even from the president trump white house, could be in the hands of the committee is -- is so much bigger than it would be at any normal workplace, bus the white house still issues paper schedules. the white house still staffs the speech on paper, all the changes and all the notes are on paper. it's my understanding that is still the practice. talk about what could be in
these documents. >> we know there is a draft executive order that was related to quote, unquote, election integrity. who drafted that executive order? how close did it get to trump's trump? why didn't trump sign it? what executivings played a role in that order's journey through the white house? it is going the raise questions for the committee about the scope of executive power and whether or not whatever action trump's team could have mulled would have lawful. or whether there should be some sort of legislation to try rein in the executive's authority when it comes to this, quote, unquote, election integrity issue. we know there is a much more kiloi had theian document that the national archives have and that the committee wants, call longs, visitor schedules, that would give us clues to which
republican members of congress were communicating with which white house staff. >> thank you for sharing your reporting betsy. jonathan sticks around longer. courts and judges specifically weighing in on who they think should be held accountable for the big lie and how the lie led to the insurrection. their statements this week ig stating they have had enough. that report when we come back. stating they have had enough that report when we come back. no, he's not in his room. ♪♪
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it's more than a year after the 2020 election, and courts all across the country are still grappling with big questions about who should be held accountable for the big lie that led to the insurrection. "the washington post" is reporting that a judge has ordered two colorado lawyers to pay $187,000 of the legal fees of the groups they sued which include voting machine company dominion in a baseless lawsuit alleges voter fraud. the judge says in, they are experienced lawyers who should have known better. they need to take responsibility for their misconduct. the pittsburgh post gazette is reporting that during a hearing in the case of the capitol attack defendant, judge reggie walton slammed the former president for continuing to lie about the 2020 election referencing the legal battles around the 2000 election results in florida, walton said this, quote, al gore had a better case to argue than trump. he was a man about what happened to him. he accepted it and walked away. and in a hearing for another capitol attack case, a federal judge appointed by trump hinted
that the former president could be charged with obstruction for pressuring vice president pence to disrupt the certification of the election result. from "politico," quote judge carl nichols made the first muf towards a trump analogy by asking whether the obstruction statute could have been violated. we're back with harry and jonathan. harry, these judges have had enough. i wish some members of the republican party in congress would see it as clearly as these judges do. but talk about the third, could trump face an obstruction investigation or prosecution? >> maybe. and nichols is probably not as serious about it. remember, he's a very conservative judge, clerked for justice thomas. but your basic point, they've had enough for months but judges have to be passive until things come to them, but once they do,
they can unburden themselves and some of them do quite a lot of unburdening. and you've seen a series of just scorching comments from the benches especially about the january 6th defendants and especially about the notion that they were some kind of patriots. they have -- they've really pushed back on that hard. on nichols particular and trump, i take that more as just sort of judge probing intellectually than any kind of serious overture toward a criminal charge. >> jonathan lemire, it is a cost in terms of reputational harm to be a lawyer involved in any of trump's causes or efforts. i won't call them defenses. it is usually not -- he doesn't pay his legal bills. usually doesn't earn anyone any money, but it is infrequent that peddling one of trump's cases
results in a $187,000 tab. talk about the cost, literal cost of defending trump's lies. >> well, you're certainly right, it's not a lucrative practice since the president, former president has been known to stiff his legal help predating his political career. you're right, there's a financial cost and certainly reputational one. let's also remember we have seen attorneys like sidney powell and rudy giuliani during the height of the former president's efforts to contest the election during that transition period after election day where they would say one thing outside the courthouse, and something very different inside because they didn't want to be caught in front of a judge peddling a lie because they knew there would be legal consequences. you know, the one exception, perhaps, to the president's -- former president's streak of bad lawyers was during his first impeachment trial when he had some help there, and certainly in the robert mueller defense, the defense of that russia
investigation he had some professionals who helped him out, but since then it has been a lost cause and to harry's point, it's just pure scorn from so many of these judges from the bench, including on the idea of executive privilege suggesting that the president because he's now a former president, would even have this right when the current president, joe biden has said that we're not going to cooperate with that. and someone like steve bannon who like roger stone, alex jones, others, not even a west wing official at the time all of this went down. this is what we're seeing here, it remains almost a circus for the former president's legal team and one that has been swiftly defeated time and again in the courts over these baseless claims of election fraud. >> it's 4:56 on the wednesday before thanksgiving, an extra thank you to harry litman and jonathan lemire for spending that time with us. thank you, guys, have a very
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to learn more about cost, visit xarelto.com or call 1-888-xarelto the spirit of ahmaud defeated the lynch mob, the spirit of ahmaud defeated the lynch mob! >> let's keep fighting. let's keep doing and making this place a better place for all human beings. all human beings. >> today is a good day. >> thank each and every one of you who fought this fight with us. it's been a long fight.
it's been a hard fight, but god is good. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. you were listening to the parents of ahmaud arbery as well as civil rights attorney benjamin crump just a few hours ago expressing their relief at the convictions of the three white men charged in the murder of arbery, a 25-year-old black man. arbery's death back in february of 2020 along with the murder of george floyd became a rallying cry in the nationwide protests over racial justice last year. all three men convicted of felony murder and travis mcmichael, the one who pulled the trigger was also found guilty of malice murder. they now face potential life in prison without parole. all three also still face federal hate crimes charges. president biden released a statement shortly after the verdict was announced that reads in part, quote, while the guilty verdicts reflect our justice system doing its job, that alone is not enough. instead, we must recommit ourselves to building a future of unity and shared strength
where no one fears violence because of the color of their skin. my administration will continue to do the hard work to ensure that equal justice under law is not just a phrase that's emblazoned in stone above the supreme court, but a reality for all americans. an important point to be made and to keep in mind as the reverend al sharpton noted earlier, this decision, this verdict is certainly something to celebrate, but it does not take away the pain of losing ahmaud arbery. >> in all our joy today, there will be an empty chair at wanda's table. >> yes. >> ahmaud would not be at thanksgiving tomorrow. >> that's right. >> but she can look at that chair and say to ahmaud, i fought a good fight. >> yeah. >> that's right. >> and i got you some justice. >> yes. >> we can't fill that chair for you, wanda, but we can say that you're a mother above all mothers. you fought for your son, and marcus, you fought for your son.
even though it will be a somber, a sober and solemn thanksgiving, you can thank god you didn't let your boy down. >> and that is where we start this hour. joining us now is nbc news correspondent cal perry outside the courthouse in brunswick, georgia, also joining us democratic strategist and director of the public policy program at hunter college. and texas state representative and civil rights attorney jasmine crockett who today announced that she is running for u.s. congress. cal perry, i start with you because you are on the ground there. tell me what you're seeing and what you've seen? >> the word that you used relief. relief is the word of the day. this could have gone the other way and the facts of this case and what happened on that day were never in question. three white men armed killed an unarmed black man, 25 years old who had nothing on him, no cell phone, no weapons. he was out jogging. that was never in dispute. the only question was would the jury buy this citizen's arrest
argument. 150-year-old law, the defense tried it. clearly they didn't bite. inside the court you heard there a little bit from marcus, the father of ahmaud arbery, he let out a whoo of relief. he was escorted out of the court. before he was, he turned to everybody and said this was a long time coming. and it has been a long time coming. ahmaud arbery died on february 23rd of 2020. if it had not been for the video that was shot by the third defendant, there's a chance this trial never would have gone to the courthouse. this is a community that feels betrayed by local law enforcement. it's not hard to understand why, nicole, we should remind our viewers that day that ahmaud arbery died, those two pickup trucks that chased him down that street were never impounded. there was never a real crime scene. there are photos of greg mcmichael, the father, the shooter, the gunman who murdered ahmaud arbery talking to investigators. east a former police officer. you had two prosecutors turn down this case, recuse themselves. so it fell on the district attorney, the assistant district attorney of cobb county to come in here and do the job. that is what the family is
grateful, that's what supporters of the family are grateful for. i think there's a sigh of relief that the verdict went the way it did. >> you know, basil, cal's reporting is so important to take us through the legal history, and i think this is an important moment to see how this almost didn't happen. we almost didn't get to today because there almost wasn't a case made against these three men, and i watched the "new york times" has a video that is really hard to watch, but it sort of re-creates everything that happened, and he was hunted. he was stalked, and he was killed, and it's all on tape, and i wonder if relief is still so inadequate. i mean, this should have been open and shut. this wasn't really as callous as the facts weren't in dispute. tell me how you feel about it. >> well, i sort of agree, there's this sense of relief, this sense of joy that comes
from this verdict, but there are all of these countervailing forces. the fact that this was videotaped, what if it wasn't. the fact that it was 74 days before they were charged, that they went through multiple prosecutors and looked from the outside that it was an attempt to cover up what happened, that the basic law in question here is a citizen's arrest law that has subsequently been repealed, but we think about what's happened in kenosha, and we think about past incidents where african american -- african american men have been shot, there are stand your ground laws. there are other self-defense laws that are still on our books and have yet to be repealed. so how many more times do we have to go through this? and i also think about some of the stories that have come out very recently. there's a case in syracuse, new york, of anthony broadwater who served 16 years in prison for a rape. they were doing a movie that
contained that incident. the screen writer, there's a screen play written and the producer on that movie in the screen play found a discrepancy, quit the project, hired his own investigator, and it was because of that investigation that anthony broadwater was released because that verdict was vacated. the judge saying that sorry isn't even a strong enough phrase to sort of convey how -- what a total miscarriage of justice this was. so for me, the sum total of all of this is that, yes, you want to the applaud the coming together of these citizens to say collectively that this was a human tragedy and these individuals should go to prison, but the justice that we see, we want to believe is woven through the ethos of this country, but there's so many examples that it really just falls on the end of
a needle, and that's what's so startling. >> representative crockett, the rev in the last hour made the point and i think he did so right after the verdict was announced that where this verdict was rendered was important that this was -- this wasn't in san francisco and i'm not saying it couldn't happen anywhere but that this happened in georgia is important. he described georgia as a georgia in transition. do you see it that way? >> i absolutely see it that way. you know, what's frustrating is that so many of us sit there and we just hold our breath wondering if justice will evade us yet again. we all saw what happened in kenosha, and we saw that there was no justice in that particular situation. and so you started to wonder why people say that black lives matter. but when we see verdicts like what we saw in kenosha and grant it, i understand who the victims were, but the reality is that everyone that was out there was marching for black lives matter,
and for whatever reason, there's always an exception when it comes to a caucasian man, no matter what they do or a caucasian person i should say, when it comes down to someone who, say, is on the other side. someone who is advocating for those things. when you look at the fact, we know what georgia has tried to do. you and i have talked many times about what georgia has tried to do when it comes down to voting rights and so many other things. we know the sordid history in georgia. we know that sadly enough we don't see the same justice in georgia that we would see, say, in a california, which is most likely why you use that reference. justice should be the same everywhere. it shouldn't be about my skin color. it should be about right versus wrong, and i think that's where we're going wrong in this country is that we are not getting to the morality of it. was it right or was it wrong? instead, certain people get a pass and certain people are always presumed guilty, even if they really are innocent. >> yeah, and cal, you know, you
set this off with your reporting about relief. i want to follow up on this and show you something that attorney benjamin crump said before the verdict about the importance of the videotape. >> i don't want us to have this precedence where if minorities are killed by white people that we have this high standard where we have to have a video to get justice. i'm thinking about breonna taylor. i'm thinking about so many others where there was no video. we can't create this precedent where if you don't have video and an unarmed black person is killed, reverend baker that we say they don't get due process. they don't get their day in court. i know video is important, but it cannot be the only they think -- only thing that gives black people access to the courtroom. >> and this has been mentioned
already, the video was shot by one of the now convicted murderers, and i just wonder if you can elaborate on what the feeling is, the sentiment is, and what that video did to that community. >> reporter: and look, there's a connection point here between this community and louisville when it comes to breonna taylor, right? the police in the breonna taylor case didn't have their body cameras on. and i've spoken to attorney crump about this. here you had ahmaud arbery, again, 25 years old. he had just kind of lived his high school years. he's jogging down the street, and when the police arrive to the scene, what they find is gregory mcmichael, his son travis mcmichael holding a shotgun, and roddie bryan, and ahmaud arbery is dying in front of them. nobody's giving them aid, and then greg mcmichael the former police officer, the former investigator in the d.a.'s office is walking around talking to investigators and talking to the police and he's basically
telling them from the point of view of the police officer we didn't have a choice. we were afraid. he reached for the gun. he grabbed it. he's telling them this story. this is how the prosecution closed their case. and then after that interaction, the police let those two pickup trucks drive home. and so what you have, again, is a situation that without the video this is probably not in court, but you talk to supporters of the family, and they would say why? why? he was unarmed. there's a reason there's not a 911 phone call from ahmaud arbery, right? he didn't have a phone. he didn't have anything on him, and when the prosecution made that closing argument, it's just anybody with kids is kind of hit with this idea of he didn't even have a way to sort of reach out and call for help. when you talk to members in the community, it's a long way of saying they will tell you there shouldn't need to be a video. you had an unarmed black man with three armed white people around him in pickup trucks and there was something wrong with that scene, and to have two prosecutors turn down the case because they said they would be biased because they worked with greg mcmichael before, to have
to go all the way to cobb county to find a district attorney, reverend al sharpton who's a colleague of our, and to see the defense playing that race card time and time again. it wasn't the prosecution that played the race card. it was the defense that played that race card. you get an idea how this community is struggling to survive with the law enforcement that they have here. >> such a powerful point. i want to read a tweet from senator raphael warnock. this verdict upholds a sense of accountability but not true justice. true justice looks like a black man not having to worry about being harmed or killed while on a jog, while sleeping in his bed, while living what should be a very long life. ahmaud should be with us today. basil. >> you know, cal talks about people looking at ahmaud arbery and not helping this man struggling and i think about eric garner, i think about george floyd, all the people who were tasked who should have been
helping that weren't helping, that should have stepped in and didn't step in, people who should have been doing their jobs and didn't. and you know, people say that the opposite of love is indifference. i feel like i'm looking up at indifference from a pit of hatred that has come -- has rolled across this country that has always been a part of this country, but to have this happen with video, imagine how much occurs without video. and for us to keep seeing black people being sort of left to die on our street is a gut check for, i think, anybody with even a modicum of morality. that's why as much as this verdict is something to be celebrated because the family gets justice, we still have a long way to go. >> i want to read the vice president's statement to you representative, crockett, vice president harris said today the
jury rendered its verdicts and the three defendants were found guilty of murdering ahmaud arbery. still, we feel the weight of grief. ahmaud arbery should be alive and nothing can take away the pain that his mother, wanda cooper-jones, his father, marcus arbery and the entire arbery family and community feel today. i share in that pain. these verdicts send an important message but the fact remains that we still have work to do. the defense counsel chose to set a tone that cast the attendance of ministers at the trial as intimidation and dehumanized a young black man with racist tropes. the jury arrived at its verdicts despite these tactics. ahmaud arbery was a son. he was a brother. he was a friend. his life had meaning. we will not forget him. we honor him best by contining the fight for justice. vice president striking some of the same notes and points that basil's making, but what is this -- how do we -- how does
this get translated into work that has at least in terms of police reform in congress largely stalled out? >> you know, i keep trying to tell people that this is a multilayered effort. it can't just be that we rely on congress or the state house. we know that we definitely can't rely on states like texas to do anything that's right. you know, we've got our work cut out for us in the community itself. you know, as you've discussed this case, i couldn't help but think about botham jean who lived in my house district, who was literally sitting at home when he was killed by a law enforcement officer while he was eating ice cream on his couch. and even still in that set of circumstances, we were holding our breath trying to figure out whether or not there would be a verdict or atatiana jefferson who is from the fort worth area and sadly enough, that officer has not been tried yet.
and so there's this idea that if we change one law that we will fix the overarching issue when in reality we need to change not only our mind-set, we need to change the interactions that are going on. we need to change, you know, the fact that we can't get anywhere on the george floyd act. we couldn't get anywhere in the texas house. we've not gotten anywhere in the u.s. congressional system either. we've not gotten those bills passed when it really shouldn't be a question of it's this side or that side because we should all want good police. sadly, it seems like one side doesn't really care how rogue some of these officers are when we look at january 6th, we know that there were law enforcement officers that participated in that. and so we've got to walk back this culture of policing. we've got to make sure that we have policy that matches up with our morals in this country, and that's on the state and the federal level. >> nbc's cal perry, reporting live in brunswick, georgia, thank you so much for being
there and for sticking around to talk to us. thank you for your reporting, basil and texas representative jasmine crockett are staying with us. when we come back, how the twice impeached ex-president's lies have become essential to the survival of republicans, as the gop descends into a full and complete fact free zone. plus, yet another one of donald trump's chosen candidates proving to be a big mistake, huge, the latest, a pennsylvania senate hopeful stepping aside after many maga republicans have followed trump down that endorsement rabbit hole. and on the eve of thanksgiving, our medical expert will answer all of our questions about how to enjoy the holidays with loved ones safely. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. bye mom. my helpers abound, i'll need you today. our sleigh is now ready, let's get on our way. a mountain of toys to fulfill many wishes.
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i do think that we are facing a crisis of democracy. that's truly what is behind trump and his enablers and those who invaded and attacked our capitol. they don't like the world we're living in and they have that in common with autocratic leaders from russia to turkey to hungary to brazil and so many other places who are driven by personal power and greed and corruption, but who utilize fears about change to try to get people to hate one another and feel insecure, and therefore, be
easily manipulated by demagogues and by disinformation. >> that was hillary clinton there, and our friend rachel maddow's program last night getting at the real reason, an explanation of why the twice impeached disgraced ex-president still holds so much power over his republican colleagues and the republican base. since losing the election in november, the ex-president has not backed down from peddle the lie that the election was stolen from him. as "the wall street journal" details in a new piece of reporting, it's that lie that has become essential, a litmus test to republicans survival. from "the wall street journal," former president trump's year-long campaign falsely claiming he won the 2020 election and demanding redress is turning voter fraud into a litmus test for republicans seeking office as the party seeks to reclaim the house and senate in 2022. many republican candidates have fallen in line, some have refused to concede defeats from 2020, and like trump, used fraud
claims to raise money. others seeking office have tailored their campaign messages to echo trump's claims that he won to avoid facing a backlash from his supporters. all this as confidence in our country's elections is dropping. a recent poll from grinnell college found that 58% of americans were very or somewhat confident that the 2022 vote will be counted fairly. among republicans that number was lower at 38%, which is a massive decrease from march of 2020 when 85% of republicans were confident. joining our conversation, co-host and executive producer of show time's "the circus." texas state representative jasmine crockett is still here. mark mckinnon, everything with trump leads to a natural end point of more corruption, more disinformation, and more damage to the office he once held, the presidency, and the country. is it even a matter for debate whether or not the republican
party is now for democracy? >> no, there isn't. we come from the paleo litic age of the republican party. i don't recognize it at all. and i think the -- i know you feel strongly about this like i do, i think the greatest fraud perpetuated on the american public is the notion that there was systemic voter fraud in the 2016 election. i come from the 2000 election election as do you where al gore had a much stronger case than donald trump does, and after a year of countless court cases, millions of dollars spent where the republican party paid their own operatives to do a recount in arizona, they found more votes for joe biden, not less. nicole, let me just quote a guy name bryant claus from the "washington post" today. he says, what has happened in the united states over the past five years is in many ways a classic of the autocratic genre, a populous leader rose to power, attacked the press, politicized
rule of law, threatened to jail his opponents. demonized minority, praised dictators abroad, and sought to seize power despite losing an election. when such despottic figures emerge, the political party has two options, push back while reasserts democratic principles or remake the party in his image. republicans have quite clearly chosen the latter path unfortunately. >> it's unbelievable, it's sort of beyond dispute, again, that you can -- that there's any sort of fight. i mean, there are two people fighting against it named liz cheney and adam kinzinger. everyone has rolled over. what are the prospects people keep thinking trump will go away. trump isn't really the point anymore, and i don't think he'll go away. this is who they are. how does it end? >> unfortunately, i thought there was a real opportunity to move beyond trump for the republican party, and i think that the recent election in virginia shows what happens,
what the republican party can do without donald trump or to keep him at arm's distance or to move ahead and put him in the rearview mirror rather than on the windshield. and i think that it's really problematic for the future not only of the republican party but of the country because i think right now there's no question that donald trump will run barring health or legal problems. i think it's almost certain he'll get the nomination, and right now i'd say it's a 50/50 proposition about whether or not he could be the elected president again. so it's -- and you know, the problem with that is that it's -- we know that what donald trump is going to do as leader of this democracy is he's going to make it an autocracy that's all about him and will once again -- and then he'll have nothing to hold him back from defiling any notion of democratic norms. >> yeah, and i mean, jasmine, people have all the information they need about what he would do. when you read the transcripts from then acting attorney
general rosen's calls with him when he wants doj to declare corrupt the election result and then his republican, our allies in congress would do the rest. i mean, he was waging a conspiracy against the government he ostensibly led while he was there last time. what is the sort of most efficient way to communicate the threat while also conveying the accomplishments of the democratic majorities? >> you know, i don't really know what it takes to convey the threat that exists. it seems like protests maybe raise the issue for a minute. it seems like maybe even msnbc covering it raises the issue for a minute. for whatever reason, the democrats just can't seem to get the messaging right. it seems like the republicans are always taking the lead, and they are masters of destruction. they tend to make sure that we somehow lose focus of what really matters, and what really matters right now is that
democracy literally is hanging in the balance. yet, for whatever reason with the majority as you and i have talked about time and time again, we can't save this democracy because two people will not move the needle to do it. it doesn't make sense to me, no one can make it make sense to me. it's going to take all of us pulling together. i'm excited that beto is running for governor in the state of texas. the republicans act as if they're happy about it, but they're not. they know that he can raise money. they know that he can galvanize people, and sadly enough, we actually are seemingly going to have to work against these laws. we're going to have to out work these terrible voter suppression laws before we can get anywhere. what's really more alarming is that we did three extra sessions. we did three special sessions on top of the regular session, and there are rumors that the texas house will go once again another special session, and do you know why? the reason why is trump. supposedly trump is upset that
we did not do an audit. so not only is he controlling the rhetoric of what's going on on the national stage, but he has a hold on a number of governors and a number of state houses to the extent that he is continuing to damage us every single day, and so if we don't get our stuff together and realize and rise up, then there won't be a country for us to save. >> and i know you have announced today that you're running for congress and you communicate on these two sort of intersection of democracy the contrast with the other party being willing hostages of the ex-president who lost in a massive electoral defeat. i want to ask you a question about messaging because you raised it. and as a former sort of message person, i'm always sense tifr when people say it's a message problem. but i feel like to your point on the filibuster, if the answer is we have to save this thing that isn't a law, isn't a rule, isn't
in the constitution and is associated with all sorts of bad things and keeping in place bad and back ward looking practices, are we asking the wrong question. and i wonder if part of your campaign will be making sure we're asking the sharpest and the most sort of direct questions so that the filibuster and our democracy are never again sort of battered around on this really mind numbing sort of seesaw? >> yeah, you know, when i use the word messaging, let me be clear. one thing that you have covered more than once, you have talked about how this was a bigger scheme. this is something that was rolling through state after state after state, right? and so with the democrats, it feels as if we're more fragmented, and so it's not that we don't necessarily have good messages. it's just that you've got maybe the democrats over here saying this, and you've got them on the national level saying that whereas literally the republicans get in line lock step.
we saw the difficulties that we had even on the house side getting on the same page. republicans will tell me, hey, i think this is a terrible deal, but i got to do what i got to do. i have to vote this way. they are low robots and they will get on message and hammer it, that's why we're still talking about the big lie, right? we're talking about this and we've had a new president for, you know, that was elected in, what, two years ago at this point or last year he was elected into office, and we're still talking about voter fraud. there was no voter fraud. so why is it still a conversation? because they know how to lead on the issues. they know how to stick to their message, and therefore, i think that's really where we lose. we lose because we don't end up getting in line on all levels in making sure we really fight back. >> it is the biggest sort of asymmetrical disadvantage for a party still rooted in facts and sort of the democratic party
orients itself around policy objectives and policy fights and a party that is, as you describe t rallies around a lie, peddles a lie, repeats the lie, its entire base, here's the lie from its echo chamber which falls in line as quickly as they do. it's going to be really exciting to watch your campaign. texas state representative, jasmine crockett, mark mckinnon, thank you both so much for spending time with us. when we come backed, he promised to have the best people, all of them, so why do so many of trump's endorsed candidates turn out to be the worst people? that story is next. story is net ] i don't know. i think they look good, man. mm, smooth. uh, they are a little tight. like, too tight? might just need to break 'em in a little bit. you don't want 'em too loose. for those who were born to ride there's progressive. with 24/7 roadside assistance. -okay.
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a man named shawn parnell was the ex-president's first choice for the senate seat in pennsylvania. parnell dropped out of the race after losing sole legal custody of his children to his ex-wife who has accused him of abusing her and their children in court testimony. scrutiny of parnell's behavior came just days after trump's endorsement when previous protective orders against parnell came to light, that did not stop any maga loyalists from falling into line behind the ex-president and his endorsement, none of whom have revoked their endorsements of parnell. parnell denies abusing his ex-wife and their children. let's bring in sam stein, white house editor for "politico" as well as an msnbc contributor, basil's still here. sam, mark mckinnon was here, and he made the point that we worked for a republican party in another era, which is neither
here nor there. it is -- there are moments when it is so stark how different that party is, and what have we thought of the republican party of the past, it did not tolerate alleged child abusers and spousal abusers and they did not garner the endorsements of any republican standard bearer. >> well, happy thanksgiving in advance, quite the thanksgiving topic. [ laughter ] >> all right, all right, i take your point. what are you cooking? go ahead, tell me about your turkey. are you brining? are you basting? >> i did brine. i did brine. i'm doing a brine and baste. >> what is the brining for? is it a tenderizing step? tell me about brining. >> you want to tenderize it, make it juicy, salty. >> bring basil in here. i have never -- i have never brined. i have fried. we don't have to talk about parnell, i take your point. no more shawn parnell. do you brine, basil?
>> i don't. i do not brine, and in fact, sometimes i just make sure that, you know, it's covered, slow cooking is the best because that will keep it nice and tender, so you just got to be patient. patience is key. >> let me ask both of you because in the era of food safety, i come from a house that has always stuffed the turkey, and at the end when the turkey is cooked, we always ate the stuffing. it's now like a four-alarm food poisoning fire. you're not supposed to do that anymore. do you stuff, and do you eat it? >> you stuff with different herbs and spices, lemon, onion, you don't eat it. that's just to juice the bird a little bit. >> the stuffing's separate obviously. >> any stuffing thoughts from you, basil? >> not as much. you know, my family's jamaican, so we kind of mix it up with a lot of other stuff. i'm looking forward not just to the turkey, but to the curry.
>> i want to come to your house. >> some chicken in there as well. >> now, if you feel ready, sam stein and like we've given thanksgiving its due, i want to ask you about these people who embody everything that trump was for, but the brazenness with which these really bad actors are embraced and lifted up is shocking. >> let's put it this way. the republican party doesn't have a monopoly on bad actors. obviously andrew cuomo just recently resigned for terrible allegations, right? but what's different about the republican party operationally is that they tolerate this type of action more so than democrats. and it's almost because to a degree republican politics these days is built around sort of attitude, this notion that you have to get in someone's face, another candidate to admire and support is someone who can be offensive.
and i think that comes from the top down, right? donald trump who never apologized, never admitted fault, denied every allegation that was thrown against him and won. and i think that's the key here. once trump showed that you can win that sort of brash attitudinal politics, then of course people were going to mimic it. and what's interesting here is not that they're mimicking it, it's what you said, the degree that republicans are tolerating this. the most obvious example right now is not shawn parnell. it's herschel walker who's faced similar allegations that he's denied down in georgia, and initially mitch mcconnell who actually has a huge stake was very sort of tepid on the walker idea. he did not want to support him. eventually he came in and said, yes, i will endorse this. that's just a retreat from these types of arguments by establishment gop. >> i'm really glad that sam brought the democratic party into this because the parallel that is so important is both
parties purge, the democrats purged andrew cuomo when the revelations became known. the republicans purged liz cheney for telling the truth about 1/6. the democratic party does not stand with people once these things are out there by and large. the republican party stood with paul gosar last week. the people they purge and the people they stand with tells you everything about the differences between these two parties right now, basil. >> absolutely because representation matters, right? to use the term standard bearer and you often recruit candidates, if you ran a party, you often recruit candidates in some version of the standard bearer of the party. someone was clinton-esque or obama-esque, and we're seeing trump-esque candidates coming to the forefront. he opened the door for these candidates to feel like that
kind of behavior should not be punished, but it's actually freeing. it's actually illuminating, it's wrong. they felt emboldened by the trump presidency that they can go out and run for office. i will say this to tie it into a previous segment, i was listening to a lecture by richard fineman, the noted physicist, that's what i do when i have free time, i watch videos of physicists. he was trying to explain this really complex issue, and he said the problem with explaining complex theories is that we don't have a joint sort of communal frame of reference. we don't share the same truths, and i think that's what's really happening with republicans and donald trump. they have gone out of their way to not have shared truths with the rest of america. they have decided that they want to create this cleavage and they want to reframe truth in the form of or in the eyes of donald trump. and that's really scary for so many of us. and that's why for democrats
it's incredibly important, you know, we always talk about having that big tent. that tent has to get a little bigger if we have to share these common truths and bring people into sort of our way of how we see the world. if that happened, i think democrats can win and republicans would be forced to do something differently. >> yes, they have to make room for the non-brining turkey stuffing folks like myself. i want to just add one more thought because i think this is something to pick up after the holiday, but this idea that there are no shared truths explains, you know, maybe 75% of it. the other 25 is not only that there's no shared -- and i don't mean morals like high horse, low horse. i mean creed do unto others like you do unto yourself. there's no shared moral contract, and what republicans have done more recently is to take morality and use it as a cudgel. it's all under the bucket of being woke. so not only is there not a moral
code that ties everyone together that everyone treats protect your neighbor with a mask, no, masks are bad. protect the unvaccinated, you don't know if someone's going through chemo. all of that is sort of the object of scorn as well as now a political cudgel with which to beat democrats with. this got off track so we ran out of time, but it really was my favorite conversation of the whole day, sam stein thank you for derailing it. basil smkyel. our doctor will answer all of your last minute questions about what is safe and what is not this thanksgiving. stay with us. this thanksgiving. stay with us
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♪nothing is everything♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. there's a lot of things differen we have vaccinations. we have people who don't want to get vaccinated which is really unfortunate. and we have boosters. we've got to get people boosted who are fully vaccinated. if we can do that, we can be much more safe than we were last time. >> dr. fauci and other experts are taking a different approach to the holidays this year saying vaccines and boosters are the determining factor in how any one of us, any household should celebrate this year. potentially life saving options that were not available last year when it was widely advised to skip thanksgiving or keep the celebrations pretty small. about 20% of fully vaccinated adults have already received their booster shots. millions of them in just the
last few days. still, about 60 million americans have yet to get even their first dose with cases rising this week in 33 states, about 94,000 new cases of covid are being reported every day. joining our conversation, msnbc public health analyst dr. er win red a professor of pediatrics at the college of medicine. so since is i bother you with a lot of my medical questions, i asked our viewers if they had some questions. i. the to read you some of their the tweets, if that's okay. s. >> great, sure. happy thanksgiving. >> these are all thanksgiving related. if someone comes to thanksgiving and has not been vaccinated, yet the rest of us have had three jabs, what do you do? do you banish them to the outside, wear a mask or eat in another room? >> yeah, so ideally, we hardly see the ideal, but every single person that's with you at
thanksgiving will have been vaccinated with two shots plus the booster. if you have people who are not completely vaccinated, the story of kids coming home from college, that may or may not be sound, the other tool besides vaccinations is getting tested. that's what the they are doing. we're testing everyone that's coming into our thanksgiving celebration. everybody, vaccinated or not, including the kids in our family that are too young to be eligible. so vaccinated, tested ask then common sense will actually sort of help you get through this as safely as possible. >> so this one the answer is going to be the same. this is my parents are in their late 80s and have boosters. how careful should we be if some of us older adults have boosters and kids home from college just have the first two shots? >> right, so again, best thing is as many people as possible should have the vaccine.
really it's the three-dose regimen that's most important and most life saving. but for those who don't have it yet, then we should just test not only the people that are less than fully vaccinated, but really everybody just to be on the safe side. >> this one is about long covid after vaccination. what do we know about long covid and breakthrough cases? do vaccines protect against that? >> so long covid is really a mystery. there's many groups across the world studying this. so sometimes people don't recover from the acute phase of covid and they end up having symptoms of some sort or another for four weeks or more. these symptoms can include broeting problems, mental health issues, brain fog, all strange things. a vaccine will reduce the likelihood of you getting long covid if you have had a
breakthrough. it doesn't eliminate it, but it definitely decreases the possibility of you coming down with long covid. >> my other question is i think everyone when delta started to come down thought we were out of the woods. it would appear we are not. where are we heading? >> the woods have lots of clearings and we got fooled into thinking this is great. i don't see trees around. we're not out of the woods. we won't be out of the woods for maybe the foreseeable tuch. it could be two years we're going to see these surges. so we're still worried. because we have these places where there's lots and lots of unvaccinated people. not only in our country, but in other parts of the world like africa or southern asia, where there are lots of unvaccinated people and those places are
festering areas where the virus can mutate. this is what we're worried about. some people now talking about a mutation that might not be so receptive or us is is septemberable to being stopped by the vaccine. in the meantime, we need to stop saying we're out of the woods. >> that will be my resolution. thank you for answering some of our questions. we hope that you and your family are safe and have a great thanksgiving. a quick break for us we'll be right back. a quick break for us we'll be right back iasis, or psoriatic arthritis, are rethinking the choices they make like the splash they create the way they exaggerate the surprises they initiate. otezla. it's a choice you can make. otezla is not an injection or a cream it's a pill that treats differently. for psoriasis, 75% clearer skin is achievable, with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. for psoriatic arthritis, otezla is proven to reduce joint swelling, tenderness, and pain. and the otezla prescribing information
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♪ i had a dream that someday ♪ ♪ i would just fly, fly away ♪ in new york city a beloved pre-covid tradition has returned in a new normal kind of way. socially distances and vaccinated locals and virlts are watching the preparations for the macy's balloons at the start of tomorrow's parade after heavily scaled down parade to one city block and no vaccines last year. this year it's 95th year with the adult population more than 80% vaccinated.
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