omicron is putting the united states on alert, which announced new travel restrictions on friday to stop the spread. dr. patel will join us shortly to explain just how concerned we should be about this new variant. we begin with the big month ahead for washington and the biden administration. the deadline for keeping the government open hits december 3rd. the deadline for raising the debt ceiling will hit december 15th. and with the senate coming back in session this week negotiations over the president's build back better act will pick up in earnest. president biden will continue to tout the benefits of the bipartisan infrastructure law. this time with a trip to rose mount, minnesota, on tuesday. and he's not the only one out on the road selling the 1.3 -- $1.2 trillion law. last week i sat down with transportation secretary pete buttigieg in baltimore. he had just launched an initiative that will invest $22 million to improve the city's public transit system.

it is part of the $1 billion grant from the department of transportation that will bolster infrastructure projects in 47 states, d.c. and guam. mr. secretary, welcome to "the sunday show." >> glad to be with you. >> so we're sitting here in liberty square in baltimore. you just announced a big project as a result of the bipartisan infrastructure law. why here? and what's the significance? >> several things made this one of the projects that made the cut for this year's round of raise grants, a program we can fund a lot more of thanks to this new law. we're looking for projects that bring together a lot of our top priorities. that includes safety, economic opportunity, equity and climate. and a great transit vision can do all of that. baltimore is an area where there has been a long-standing need for east/west connection and where sometimes in the past transportation decisions actually cut people off from

opportunity. so what they're going to do, adding bus lanes, creating safer and expanded transit, will help more people access services, access jobs, access schools, and i think sets this city on a more equitable path, which is why that local vision was so compelling. >> and let's talk more specifically about the east/west connection here in baltimore. there is the so-called highway to nowhere, which exemplifies a lot of what you're trying to accomplish with the bipartisan infrastructure. talk about why the highway to nowhere is example number one for why this is so important. >> so, a good infrastructure project connects people. and it connects people to each other as well as to opportunities. sometimes infrastructure can be the reverse. the highway to nowhere is an example of a stretch of road built, only about a mile and half, but the way it was put in demolished so many homes and really helped to wreck a neighborhood.

and we're trying to make sure that as we look forward, we're doing the reverse, we're connecting, not dividing, improving, not harming. as you might expect and as we see in so many places around the country, black residents displaced by that investment. it didn't serve transportation needs very well. i bring this up not to wallow in it or make people feel bad about mistakes of the past, but we have a chance to do something about it. and that's something we're looking for among criteria for programs in the future, how to make something better, where maybe in the past federal dollars made something worse. >> what do you say to those critics and usually conservative critics who say that your focus on equity in this way, or just to be perfectly blunt, focusing in on the role race has played in transportation decisions, infrastructure decisions, what do you say to them who say you're making the wrong argument or you have no argument? >> look what we're doing is we

are reconnecting people, who may have been disconnected or divided, i did discriminatory decisions in the past. that helps anybody. i don't know why anybody would be against reconnecting people who have been divided by discriminatory decisions in the past. the point is not to make america feel guilty, the point is to make america better and more equitable and more effective in moving people to where they need to go. the point of transportation is to connect. so if a transportation was ever used to divide, we have a responsibility, a moral one and very practical one, to fix it. the mayor was describing when he was a kid in baltimore, taking two hours to get to school. two hour commute. that's longer than it takes to get to baltimore from my home in washington, d.c. we can do better. especially for people who don't have cars, who are disproportionately residents of color. this is something that makes whole communities better off. and it hurts no one to it tell the truth and do something about it. >> what is the economic argument for this? you make the transportation

argument, but isn't there an economic argument also. >> absolutely. there is 18 0,000 jobs along the stretch we're supporting here. connecting people to those jobs makes for a stronger economy and brings opportunity into neighborhoods that haven't always had access in terms of folks getting to where those job opportunities really are. and we see this again played out across the country, where it is quicker to get to a city from a whole different state if you do have a car than to get across town if you don't have a car. fixing that connects more people to the job opportunities that help them build well, and establish a stable family life with all of the social as well as financial benefits that that brings for family upon family in some of the underserved areas across our community and the country. >> i know it is now the bipartisan infrastructure law. now there is talk about the build back better act, which is human infrastructure. are there things in that

legislation that is now being cobbled together that is important to you as the secretary of transportation? >> absolutely. yes. most of the physical infrastructure work was contemplated in the bill just signed. there is more envisioned in the build back better law. i'll give you one example, it contains incentives to make it more affordable to buy an electric vehicle, a discount in effect for families thinking about getting an ev. they will never have to worry about gas prices again. the people who stand to benefit most from owning an ev are often rural residents, who have the longest distances to drive, they burn the most gas. they would gain the most by having that vehicle. these are residents not connected to electric vehicles viewed as a luxury item. if we can make an electric vehicle less expensive for everybody, more people can take advantage and we'll be building

and selling more american evs which means over time they'll become less expensive to make and buy for everybody. that's one example of something in the build back better legislation that would be great news on top of all the work that we're going to be doing right now to deliver the bill that just passed. that's plenty to keep me busy for a while. >> the last question, and the most important question for you, mr. secretary, and that is this, you have any baby pictures to show us? how are the babies? >> they're great. we had a tough stretch with both of them in the hospital. we're past that. they're fully recovered. and they're bringing us so much joy. not a lot of sleep, quite a bit of work, but it changes your entire relationship to the future and to each other, and i think on this new adventure of raising these beautiful twins, a boy and a girl. and, you know, every parent gets that look in their eye when they're talking about their kids, nothing can totally

prepare you for it, but everything they told me is true, and then some about what it is like to be a dad. >> well, i was about it say happy thanksgiving. but this is going to be a very happy thanksgiving for you and chasten and the twins. pete buttigieg, thank you very much for coming to "the sunday show." >> thanks a lot. joining me now to continue this discussion on infrastructure is congresswoman debbie dingell of michigan and congressman jamie gomez of california. thank you, both, very much for coming to "the sunday show." >> good morning. good morning to both of you. >> good morning. >> congresswoman dingell, since you are there smack in the middle of the country in michigan, i'll start with you, since i'm in congressman gomez's state. i want to put up this report card and it gives grades for both of your states. michigan gets a d plus, california gets a c minus. congresswoman dingell how will the bipartisan infrastructure bill help michigan improve that

grade? >> there are so many different ways it is going to happen. first of all, our governor won campaigning on a motto of fix the damn roads. sorry to use that word on a sunday morning but that's how people feel. we have a significant amount of money that is going to remove lead from pipes, michigan again taught the country about what happens when you have a community like flint that has lead in the water. 50% of the children in this country whose blood have been tested have lead in their blood. now we have got that and several other cities that have lead in their blood. and the pandemic taught us disparities of high speed internet and those that have it and those that don't. and that's going to dress this problem, just for beginners. there is a lot of other critical things, but in this bill going to make such a difference in a state like michigan bridges that are crumbling, logistics being impacted because they're so bad.

i got home after we voted, that saturday, infrastructure bill got out of the car, was meet something people, i stepped in a pothole and went flailing everywhere and said, this is what the infrastructure bill is going to fix. >> and to your point about -- i'm glad to see you're okay, having fallen stepping into a pothole, make that clear first. you mentioned benton harbor, michigan, we put up a headline of an opinion piece in "the washington post," another water crisis looms in michigan. is benton harbor the next flint? as the report card showed a moment ago, california gets a c minus. how is the bipartisan infrastructure law going to -- excuse me -- going to help the golden state? >> before i was in congress, i was a state legislator, state assemblyman and i was the co-chair of the conference committee on infrastructure. so california did take steps to

start investing billions of dollars in our roads, bridges, water ways, and we started that a few years ago. but we couldn't do it alone. so we have been waiting and california has been waiting for the federal government to step in. and this is where they're stepping in. and it is going to help deliver even more improvements on our bridges, our roads, and you're going to see a profound impact. one project in my district now that is -- partly federally funded is the 6th street viaduct. hundreds of people are put to work. mostly people of color, a lot of women and people who live in the area. so the bipartisan -- the bipartisan infrastructure bill is going to have opportunities to have targeted local hire, so people can get back to work, but also in good union paying jobs. so it is going to be a profound impact. and at the same time, this is just to make us more competitive in the future, and as secretary buttigieg said, this could have a profound impact on how people

commute, how people get from their home to their job and back. and people can save 30 minutes, 20 minutes of commute time to be with their families, all of us are to be better off. >> all right, so let's look forward. now when the senate goes back into session, you all go back into session starting tomorrow, starting next week, negotiations begin in earnest in the senate over the build back better act, put up some of the things that are in the framework. once it comes out of the senate, it is going to come back to you in the house and i want each of you in the two minutes we have left to talk about what are your red lines? if the bill come backs from the senate and it doesn't include fill in the blank provision, you couldn't possibly support it. congresswoman dingell. >> i don't think that's going to happen. i think most of the negotiations that occurred to get this bill passed in the house have happened.

i will be very unhappy if paid family leave is not in there because i think we're the only industrialized nation in the world that doesn't have it. but i also know that change takes time. and we got the commitment of republican and democratic senators to go to work on that, if for some reason joe manchin once again wins at doing something that is going to not -- i mean, that's going to harm a lot of people. i believe we're going to get build back better done by christmas. it will make the difference in so many americans' lives. >> congressman gomez are you equally optimistic that it will get done by christmas? >> i am. i am. 95% of the bill has been cooked and negotiated. it was a -- that's why it took so long to get both of these bills, the infrastructure bill passed and signed into law, but also get build back better into the senate. and it is in a good position. there is great provisions in there, have transformative impacts and already having

transformative impacts. the child tax credit alone cut child poverty in this country from 40% to 60%. i have parents who come up to me with tears in their eyes and telling me that this child tax credit, the fact that they can rely on it every single month, that it is changing how they budget, how they provide for their kids. so these kind of provisions are essential as well as the universal pre-k. imagine that. every single child in this country can start off in the right foot in their education. you're going to -- i didn't get to go to preschool. my parents couldn't afford it. i turned out okay. but, you know what, imagine if i would have just started a little bit earlier and other people did the same thing. so we're very confident that it is going to pass. >> all right. congressman gomez, real fast, yes or no answer. if universal pre-k doesn't come back to the house and it is not in there, given what the senate

will vote on, will you still vote for build back better? >> i'm going to vote for -- i think it is going to be in there. >> all right. congressman jamie gomez of california, congresswoman debbie dingell of michigan, thank you, both, very much for coming back to "the sunday show." coming up, later in the show, the latest on the new covid variant omicron. and what it means for us here in the u.s.? but, first, we'll bring you up to date on the january 6th investigation, subpoenas continue to be issued as a parade of depositions is set to start tomorrow. that is if the witnesses actually show up. more after the break. stay with us. actually show up more after the break stay with us ♪ superpowers from a spider bite? i could use some help showing the world how liberty mutual customizes their car insurance so they only pay for what they need. (gasps) ♪ did it work? only pay for what you need

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starting tomorrow, a parade of witnesses should start appearing for their depositions before the january 6th select committee to investigate the attack on the capitol. as they should because there is no guarantee they'll show up. steve bannon didn't show up for his and got indicted after congress held him in contempt for defying his subpoena. trump's chief of staff mark meadows awaits his fate after not showing up for his deposition. and others like trump ally roger stone and sandy hook denier alex jones who were hit with subpoenas last week are expected to do the same. >> i'm going to make a decision between now and december 17th based on the advice of my counsel. but it is very dangerous to go into this forum because they are not honest. this is a partisan witch-hunt.

>> i'm probably going to declare the fifth, because these people are political criminals that have an ax to grind. >> joining me now to discuss what this all means, civil rights attorney and msnbc legal analyst maya wily. thank you for coming back to the show. the thing about the subpoenas that we have been seeing over the last few weeks is -- i want to put the calendar back up again. what is fascinating to me is that every day pretty much starting tomorrow someone is due in or a couple of people are due in to give depositions, we already have seen people say they're not showing up. mark meadows didn't show up, steve bannon didn't show up, those two characters are making it clear they're not going to show up. do you take the same message i take from the select committee by the way they plotted this out, they're basically defying everybody to defy their subpoenas every day to sort of cement in the minds of the american people about what exactly they're trying to -- what they're trying to do and

what they're trying to show. >> i think that's an astute observation. the job of the committee, let's go back to the basics, it is supposed to uncover what caused january 6th, what happened that day, who is responsible if anyone for organizing it into something that was intended to be what it became and what to do to prevent it in the future. that's a pretty big task given how many people were enveloped, involved and they started with hundreds of witnesses, who they were speaking with, we forget because we focus so much on the people not communicating with congress, that there are hundreds who are. and these subpoenas are coming for those who are -- have direct knowledge who are -- whose names are coming up in the hundreds of people, and i add one other thing that is very interesting to me about this. it is the folks that get closer and closer to the trusted circle

of donald trump. people who scheduled him pointing them to conversations that he had or people he was in touch with, who are central figures in organizing this, alex jones, we're talking about steve miller, folks who are directly connected to white supremacist groups, conspiracy theories, and who have direct pipeline to donald trump, because if you also recall, we know that the department of justice has already identified some of the hate groups that were involved in january 6th for criminal conspiracy convictions, potentially. we don't know what the evidence is going to show. but that's what's going on. and all of these concentric circles are starting to overlap with these subpoenas. >> right. and actually, more to your point, let's play what our friend joyce vance told jasmine on this point about the number of people who have been cooperating with the committee and what exactly that means. let's listen.

>> but the real story here with the january 6th committee's work is the volume of witnesses speaking to them without subpoenas. and the documents that we're getting. and we see that reflected in some of these newer subpoenas, which contain information that is clearly coming from witnesses and they're being very, very definitive. >> and, you know, maya, that's a very excellent point that these subpoenas are very, very specific and when you got someone like roger stone saying that, you know they are not being honest, he's going to get tripped up in this, isn't he? >> he's been tripped up before. he does have a criminal record.g to plead the fifth, which doesn't mean he's guilty of anything. the point is, if you don't have anything to hide, why not come forward and share the information? it is a bipartisan commission

there are two republicans on it who would be happy, i am sure, to kind of recover the reputation of the republican party here. and so really honestly i think joyce is dead right. it is the fact that the committee can point to statements that other witnesses, witnesses who like and supported and were working to help organize the rally on january 6th saying they were in communication with the white house, and members of congress, we shouldn't forget that either, from gosar to others, who actually knew and understood and were participating in the organizing, but are saying that donald trump was in the conversations, are saying that these are folks who were having conversations with donald trump. so it is both a legitimate line of inquiry, it is based in facts, given by witnesses who have no reason to be trying to set donald trump or any republican up for any kind of witch-hunt and that's the most

important thing to know and understand here. >> it is going to be a fascinating week and a fascinating month to see who shows up and who doesn't. maya wiley, thank you for coming back to "the sunday show." coming up, a new covid variant detected everseas. we'll bring you the latest on omicron and what it means for us here next. stay with us. n and what it means here next. stay with us like pulsing, electric shocks, sharp, stabbing pains, or an intense burning sensation. what is this nightmare? it's how some people describe... shingles. a painful, blistering rash that could interrupt your life for weeks. forget social events and weekend getaways. if you've had chickenpox, the virus that causes shingles is already inside of you. if you're 50 years or older ask your doctor

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a lot of whether or not we're headed into a bleak or

bleaker winter is going to depend upon what we do. even when you have variants like this, and there is a lot of unknowns about this variant, we know from experience when you get a level of protection with vaccine and particularly now with the extraordinary increase in protection you get with the booster, even when you have variants of concern, you do well against them. >> dr. fauci giving some critical advice this morning as the new covid variant dubbed omicron is spreading in a growing number of can countries and sparking alarm here at home. tomorrow, the united states will begin restricting flights from eight african countries after the variant was first detected in south africa. and new york's governor has declared a state of emergency which allows hospitals to protect capacity by limiting nonemergency procedures. she warns that while the new variant has not been detected in the u.s., it's coming. joining me now, dr. patel.

welcome back to "the sunday show." how worried should we be at this point? and what is so concerning about this particular variant? >> yeah, jonathan, good to be with you. i wish it were a bit better news. so i'll temper this by saying many of us in the public health community are worried when we seeing some like omicron, 32 mutations on the spike protein, and we're worried not just because of the sheer number, those mutations are significantly different to the delta and some of the other viruses strains that we have dealt with. and that mutation, set of mutations makes it easier to transmit, easier for the virus to attach and potentially easier for the antibodies that our current vaccines to produce to not necessarily neutralize that particular strain. now, all of this needs to be kind of born out over the next several weeks to see if that's true. we'll see some of the studies over the next two weeks. until then, you see some of the

rather crude precautions being taken on travel, i make assumptions the virus is already here, the strain is already in the united states, so the best thing an individual can do, make sure they're up to date on their booster if they have been six months over the age of 18 from the second dose or two months from the one dose of j&j, now is the time to get a booster. and then also to take precautions, whether you have mandatory masking or not, just be smart about being in crowded situations where you don't novak know vaccine status of other people. >> let's listen to what vice president harris had to say when she was asked about this yesterday. >> i have been briefed and as the president has said, we're going to take every precaution and so that's why we have taken the measures we have. i can't stress enough, one, if you have not had the booster shot, get the booster shot. cannot stress enough the importance of getting vaccinated for those who have not been vaccinated. i will say what i say every time, because it remains true, they are safe, the vaccines are

safe, they are free and they will save your life. >> so there you have the vice president echoing your point about the boosters. i want to get your thoughts on -- i think you alluded to this in your initial answer, about the travel restrictions that are being put in place, you have african nations now saying that they're being unfairly punished over the new variant. are the travel bans an overreaction, do you think? >> i do, but i'll also say as a former policy person, what else can you do? and that becomes the answer unfortunately to a really bad question. i completely agree. i'm glad we have this greek naming system. it is so much better than what we were seeing before. south african variant. the only reason we know this was in south africa is because let's be candid, they're much better about global viral surveillance than almost any other country including the united states. we're penalizing the people that are doing the job that frankly i wish we could do. but if we had done a better job

almost every variant could be dubbed the united states variant because we would find it. and that's exactly what is happening with african nations. and i want to put another reminder, african nations, especially the 50 that are on most of the country's kind of, quote, red list now for banning travel to and from, those are the countries that had 2% to 6% of their population vaccinated. so this is definitely just a -- this is what we were all worried about, global scenarios with low vaccination countries kind of being a reservoir or place for the variants to emerge. we can only hold ourselves responsible for that. instead of travel restrictions, i would love to see much stricter testing requirements using pcr tests. we can see this on a pcr test, we're seeing this strain on a pcr test, that's great. it would be much more useful to have mandatory pcr testing, and to do a much better job on surveillance on our end, which i'm hoping our country is doing. >> dr. patel, i'm telling you

this, it is also a way of telling folks in the control room, i want clipped what you just said about south africa. they're so much better at surveillance. that's why we know about omicron. thank you very much for coming back to "the sunday show." coming up, all eyes are on a mississippi abortion case going before the supreme court on wednesday. a case that could decide the fate of roe v. wade. we'll talk about that next. fate of roe v. wade. 'lwel talk about that next (vo) t-mobile for business helps small business owners prosper during their most important time of year. when you switch to t-mobile and bring your own device, we'll pay off your phone up to $1000. you can keep your phone. keep your number. and get your employees connected on the largest and fastest 5g network. plus, we give you $200 in facebook ads on us! so you can reach more customers, create more opportunities, and finish this year strong. visit your local t-mobile store today.

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as we await a supreme court decision on texas' restrictive abortion law, the justices are about to hear arguments in another case that could pose an even more imminent threat to the constitutional right to an abortion. on wednesday, the high court will take on a challenge to mississippi's abortion law, which bans the procedure at 15 weeks of pregnancy. and unlike the texas case, which focuses on whether the federal government can intervene in a state law, the mississippi case takes direct aim at roe v. wade. joining me now, melissa murray, professor of law at nyu, former law clerk to justice sonia sotomayor. and msnbc legal analyst. melissa, welcome back to "the sunday show." okay. so we had you on when the texas case came up. and implications for that. this is a -- this is a different case than texas. talk more about that.

>> they're both the same in that they both deal with challenges to laws that are so-called heart beat laws, laws that ban abortion at a particular point in pregnancy, and in both cases they ban the abortion in advance of viability. viability is the marker in pregnancy, where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. it is typically marked by 23 or 24 weeks. so texas' law and mississippi's law are both in violation of roe v. wade and planned parenthood versus casey which stated states cannot ban abortion before viability. they're similar in that way. they are two distinct challenges. the mississippi challenge was already pending on the court's calendar before they took up this texas challenge in september. >> let me -- i was about to signal to the control room element two, in the petition filed by the mississippi attorney general lynn fitch, last june, this is what they're

arguing. roe and casey are strong. the conclusion that abortion is a constitutional right has no basis in text, structure, history or tradition. because the constitution does not protect a right to abortion, it provides no guidance to courts on how to account for the interests in this context. explain that to me, because i thought that's what roe was all about, there is a constitutional right to abortion. but based on right to privacy. >> that's exactly right. i will note and it is important to remember this, when mississippi first petitioned the court to take up this case in 2019, its ask was much more modest. we're trying to figure out if the constitution permits a state to restrict abortion in advance of viability. so in their view, a very modest ask that only dealt with the question of where the line was that the state could intervene to regulate abortion. after the court had taken up this case, and after september of 2020, when ruth bader

ginsburg died, mississippi's ask became much more aggressive and assertive and that's when it made this request to the court, this invitation, if you will, to take up roe and casey and to overturn them on the ground they have proven to be unworkable. according to mississippi, technological advances mean the fetus can survive outside the womb at much earlier. 23, 24 weeks. this is highly debated by the medical community. >> let me put up this opinion poll, should roe v. wade be upheld? keep as it, 62%, overturn it, 38%. so a majority of the country thinks that roe should be upheld. you are, as we noted, you were a law clerk for supreme court justice sonia sotomayor. and i'm wondering how much does popular opinion, how much does an opinion poll like that play in the deliberations of the justices, or does public opinion

not factor in at all? >> well, the justices deliberate in a black box. no one admitted to their conferences but the other justices. so no one actually knows what happens there. i think we all do know that the justices are susceptible to public opinion. they have to be because the court relies on its own legitimacy with the public in order to ensure that its decisions are on course. it is not like congress, not like the president, it cannot raise an army, it cannot withhold funds, all it has to make us obey with the decisions is its own legitimacy. they were not partisan, they were not partisan hacks. what they did was above board. for the first time in as long as there has been polling, the supreme court's polling numbers were abysmally low and many people saw that as the public response to what happened in the texas sb-8 case. >> melissa murray, every time you're on, i feel infinitely

smarter than when i came in. thank you for coming back to "the sunday show." >> thank you. coming up, we'll discuss the charlottesville verdict that came four years after the deadly 2017 unite the right rally. keep it right here. unite the ry keep it right here are you tired of clean clothes that just don't smell clean?

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-had enough? -no... arthritis. here. new aspercreme arthritis. full prescription-strength? reduces inflammation? thank the gods. don't thank them too soon. kick pain in the aspercreme. after three days of deliberations, the jury in the civil lawsuit against the organizers of the 2017 unite the right rally awarded nine people who were injured $25 million in damages. the jury, however, was unable to reach a decision on federal conspiracy charges. charlottesville has since struggled to move past the events that took place four years ago. but this trial sends the message that white supremacist terror will not be tolerated. joining me now are the attorneys for the charlottesville plaintiffs, roberta kaplan and karen dunn. thank you very much for coming to "the sunday show" and it is great to see you, my friends. it has been a very long time.

thank you for coming to "the sunday show." >> thank you for having us. >> roberta, we sat down for an interview in my podcast at the washington post four years ago after you and karen were hired by the integrity for america, a nonprofit civil rights organization that helped to support the lawsuit. you were using the 1871 -- i think the klan law, to bring this suit. talk about that law and why it was so important for the suit you both brought. >> so the ku klux klan after 1871 basically means what it says. it was a law passed by the reconstructionist congress after the civil war to stop the violent lynchings that were being done, perfect picture, during the rise of the kkk. and what happened in charlottesville, let me back up, it is one of the very few civil rights laws that applies to private conduct as opposed to

governmental conduct. and our argument and our case was that what happened in charlottesville four years ago is exactly believe it or not what congress in 1871 intended to prohibit, just the modern version. so rather than wearing robes and hoods as you saw in that photo, they were on telegram and discord and they used the internet, but it was exactly the same thing. that's the law that we use. >> and, karen, one of the things that came out after the decision was made, was handed down, that a lot of these organizations are, like, we don't have the money to pay this, where are we going to get the money to pay this, but was getting the $25 million reward, was the goal really to get the $25 million to the plaintiffs or was there something larger here? >> well, jonathan, both goals are true. first of all, we're going to pursue these defendants for the money that they owe our

plaintiffs. and we will not let up on that. we are good at this. we're tenacious, we will persevere. and we will make sure that we pursue these defendants wherever they are. so that's the first thing. and some of them, including the groups, do have money. but your second point is exactly right. the numbers that we saw, both for compensatory damages and punitive damages,nd sent a very clear message loud and clear throughout the country that this conductry will not be tolerated and it's clear that our jurors felt very strongly and they levied a judgment for multiple millions of dollars. theyio assessed each defendant the case. every single defendant that we brought this case against was foundwa to be liable and they we found to be liable for compensatory and punitive damages. the entire point of punitive damages is to send a message not just to these defendants but

well beyond to anybody who thinks they can do this. >> and, you know, roberta, again, when you and i talked in 2017 about this particular case you were pretty confident that the result that we found out about this year was going to happen and you told me, quote, we have a sense of evidence before what happened of their planning of theha events that happened and you went on to say, and then we have a sense of evidence afterwards bragging about what they did and taking delight in the fact that someone was killed and that people were hurt. when the case was -- when you were arguing the case before a jury, how was the evidence -- how was the evidence received, do you think? >> so the evidence in that case as i previewed, may be perhaps over confidently four years ago, jonathan, though i think it turned out okay, is pretty extreme stuff. it's actually pretty atrocious.

i think i said in my closing that i don't think the jurors had ever heard so many times about the book mine kampf or that they would hear so much. one of the atrocities was to try to desensitize the jurors. so, for example, the word kike directed at jews is a word you heard over and over and over again in the courtroom. they said the reason they did that was because they wanted to desensitize people to make it normal to use the word k-i-k-e. the jurors saw through it. the verdicts that they reached, as karen said, spoke loud and clear about what they felt about each of the defendants. i wore this jewish star the entire time we were in the courtroom so w they knew at lea who i was and who i am.

and i think that that doesn't work. i think they sent a message not only about what happened in charlottesville but as karen said, that promoting violence and engaging in violence based on hateful, atrocious beliefs about hitler or african-american people or they would talk about reenslaving african-american people, there was a horrific image we used called -- i hate to say it aloud. it was basically a tote bag for carrying an african-american in. that kind of imagery, despite their strategy, really resounded with the jury and they realized what we were talking about was very serious stuff, very hatefu stuff and stuff that is fundment a l i believe, anti-american. >> last question to you, karen. i don't know if there are any plans to bring other lawsuits like this, but are there any? >> yeah. so i think this is just the

beginning of these kinds of lawsuits when this conduct occurs. i think our case hassett an incredibly hopeful precedent. i think in our own case we have the best of all worlds. we are able to keep these defendants in litigation if we so choose under the claims we brought while simultaneously to prove a conspiracy for racially motivatedac violence and i thin we exposed their tactics. in closing i said to the jury, don't let this desensitize you. we lived in a bubble of hate and violence for four weeks all together and you feel yourself becoming desensitized, becoming numb to it. >>mi right. >> and we said to the jury, don't let that happen to you. we would say to the country the same thing, don't become desensitized. racially motivated violence has no place and under our laws in this country, we can go after it and we can prestrength.

>> karen dunn, roberta cap lain, thank you for coming to "the sunday show" and congratulations on a very worthy verdict. thank you very, very much. >> thank you so much. y >> the charlottesville case, the arbery case and rittenhouse trial have similar themes. what happens when black people make the same claim? plus, my all-star panel including congresswoman maxine waters ready to sound off to the latest news and the other sunday shows. don't want to miss it. ovens that flip up and away, grills that bring outdoor flavors indoors, and blenders that spin up healthy eating. ninja foodi, be proud of what you make. new vicks convenience pack. dayquil severe for you... and daily vicks super c for me. vicks super c is a daily supplement with vitamin c and b vitamins to help energize and replenish. dayquil severe is a max strength daytime, coughing, power through your day, medicine. new from vicks. wayfair's cyber monday sale is on now!

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welcome back to "the sunday show." i'm jonathan cape heart. the murderers of ahmaud arbery face a lifetime. they will be on trial for federal hate crime charges in early february for killing arbery because of his race and color. the killers were held accountable in this case, but it has sparked important discussions about race, justice and equal treatment under the law. take a look at how police approached travis mcmichael in the aftermath of the shooting of arbery. >> we are going to take your clothes. we're going to let you go home. you're okay, sir. >> such concern, such compassion

for a man who just murdered someone. would they have treated a black man the same way? that's a rhetorical question. the more important question is this, at what point do black people get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to self-defense? joining me now, msnbc real analyst paul butler, author of "chokehold." brittney cooper. and the reverend al sharp ton. let's go around the horn here on that question. at what point do we get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to self-defense or is that just a pipe dream? paul, i'll start with you. >> jonathan, self-defense laws in the united states are about

toxic white masculine knit at this. and this old school view of men don't run, they fight, that means white men. it's more important to be macho than preserve life. we know when a white person is victimized, in most cases it's another white person who is responsible. there's in the a whole lot of talk about white on white crime, but it's real. the data tells us self-defense works much better for white men when they have killed a black man than the other way around. a blan man may get the benefit of self-defense if the victim is another black man but not when his victim is white. >> brittney cooper? >> we have a long history. the winchester rifle should have a place in every black home.

before king became a non-violence guru his home was loaded down with guns. i come from a part of louisiana that is famous for the deacons for defense who in the mid 1960s took their guns and stood up to the klan precisely because the law would not protect black folks. i don't know how we balance this to a notion of nonviolence and a belief in the rule of law and a belief in democracy and an increasingly radicalized right and people who have bought guns at record levels during the trump administration and over the last couple of years. and so, no, the law does not typically stand for our right to defend ourselves, but you also have the very pressing issue that when folks who are -- who don't believe in your right to life or the value of your life are also heavily armed and have a radical view about white

supremacy and about the subjew gigs of black people, then we've got to begin to ask serious questions about what position does that put black people in and is there a way for us to think about what it means to defend ourselves and our communities without being restyled as the violent aggressive terrorist. >> brittney, the run on guns, you can go back to the beginning of the obama administration when people were freaked out after they thought the obama administration was going to go after their guns. reverend sharpton, you have been at the center of pretty much every racial incident where an unarmed or -- unarmed african-american has been hurt or killed. you've been with their families. i would love your perspective on this question about whether or when self-defense is something that could be utilized by

african-americans. >> i think you must deal with the fact that the law is based on the premise that blacks were not even equal or human, and when you're dealing with the fact that you have people that feel, as in the arbery trial, that just the presence of nonviolent ministers with bibles was intimidating or that a victim had long, dirty toenails, before you can get to self-defense, you can get to we are equally looked upon by the law as human beings. they tried to paint in many of these cases that clearly because they were black you cannot apply the law the same way because blacks in and of themselves are not animalistic or less inhuman and are not in the definition of

are you going to deal with self-defense, you cannot ascribe the same thing to them that you do to others. i think the underlying racism has to be addressed and the law must have that in mind as we get to the law of self-defense. so the assumption of self-defense is never there for blacks because the assumption of equality is never there for blacks and that's what we're wrestling with. when you can stand up in 2021 and talk about a black man who was killed had dirty, long toenails in front of a jury, when you can stand up in '21 say i do not want anymore black pastors that will intimidate the jury, that is the basis of why the law does not work because we have people who believe blacks

are less than humans and should not have the same interpretation of law for them as would other people. >> i'm glad you brought that up, reverend. i was going to ask paul about that. let me have you listen, rev, to what kevin goff, the attorney for william hrodey bryant had to say after the verdict about what was going on outside the courtroom. listen. >> you've seen the efforts in the case to try and contain the carnival like atmosphere outside the courthouse and, you know, that's pretty rough. you've got you guys doing your job and other people doing their jobs and, you know, this is america. it ain't easy. you've got -- you want freedom, you've got to work at it. >> and just to remind the audience, i'm sure they recognized that guy. he's the same one who said that -- he called for a mistrial and had railed against the black ministers, the black pastors who were sitting in the gallery, you

were among those, rev. your response to william hrodey bryant's attorney there. >> the use of carnival. we were having prayer vigils. you had some people protesting and you had media. when we have a gathering it's a carnival. we're like elephants jumping through a fire hoop at a circus, and i think that this, again, is intentional wording to give the kind of signals they want to the public. if we were to calling white evangelical ministers a carnival or a circus, we would be ridiculed or dismissed as saying something bigoted, biased and

desicable. to dismiss pastors who are having prayers with a grieving mother as a carnival gives you the kind of mentality we're facing. >> paul, i want to pick up on rev's comments about the law. this is what i was focused on, particularly after the rittenhouse trial. i said on pbs that night that reading the wisconsin law as contradictory as it seemed, reading the wisconsin law, if i were on that jury and was instructed to follow the law, i would have been hard-pressed to find rittenhouse guilty in that case because of the way the law is written. should we really be looking to the long-term effort of changing legislatures so that folks can get in there and rewrite the laws so that there really is equal justice under law?

>> it's a great point, jonathan. you have to look at who is the aggressor. even when people of color are victims, we are stereo typed as aggressive and threatening. in the georgia case, travis mcmichael said mr. arbery ran towards him like a running back. he was so aggressive he tried to attack their pickup trucks. now thank god the georgia jury did not buy these racist tropes but so many jurors do. we now live in an era where we have armed vigilantes protesting black lives matter protests. we have to be concerned about what the rittenhouse verdict expresses, whether it emboldens white men who want to take the law into their own hands, who want to bring guns to patrol

racial justice protests. >> brittney cooper, you have the last word. whatever thought you have. go. >> the thing is, i've been reflecting on the history of this moment. let's not forget the black panther party's name was the black panther party for protest. that tells us something about the way black people have been thinking for many, many decades, about what it means to have to protect ourselves. why do we live in a country that does not see any duty to black folks to protect us? we relied on black voters to turn this country to the left so we could survive a pan przemek, put a liberal government in the white house. but we're still back to the 1920s discussions of taking a jog in the neighborhood, going out to peacefully protest. and let us also not forget that we are just about ten years out from the murder of trayvon martin who was on the other side of a defense about wherein his

killer said he was defending himself after he clearly provoked the attack. so we are in a moment of great reckoning in this country about whether or not the country and our system of laws sees a duty to protect black life. the thing that makes us all feel disheartened. we know the resounding answer is no precisely because of the tops si turfy decisions. rittenhouse gets off. arbery's killers don't get off. the country does not know which watt the wind is blowing and take a firm stance and say you cannot attack people as they are defending black lives, standing black lives, for simply being black people moving about the world and living and that is the concern that should concern us all. >> amen, amen. reverend sharpton, reverend brittney cooper, paul butler, thank you all very, very much for coming back to "the sunday show." it's time for your moment of

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kevin mccarthy has a problem in our conference. he doesn't have the full support and confidence. many of us are unhappy about holding republicans accountable while people like me, paul gosar and others take the abuse from democrats. >> that kind of nonsense may be why wanna be speaker kevin mccarthy says greene and nully censured paul gosar could be reinstated if republicans win the house. meanwhile, mccarthy is hinting republicans may take away committee seats from democrats who dared to speak truth to the gop's crazy caucus, including my next guest. you can hear her joining me now for your moment of maxine.

congresswoman maxine waters, chair of the house financial services committee. and -- >> yes. >> -- proud californian. >> yes. >> thank you so much for coming back to "the sunday show." and being on set. >> i'm so delighted to be here. so happy you're in california. >> thank you. your reaction from what you heard from marjorie taylor greene and this threat from house minority leader kevin mccarthy that if they retake the house, you're going to be removed from financial services. >> well, you know, he's in a terrible situation over there. as a matter of fact, you heard the threat from marjorie taylor greene that he would not be speaker because he had not supported trump in the way he should have done. he needs to come back. he needs to point to something. they've tried to censure me. i'm not surprised at all but as has been said so many times, i guess now he's being jammed by the crazy caucus and so now

maxine waters is a target, but that's okay. i've been there before and he'll never win against me. >> let's have a listen to minority leader kevin mccarthy, what he had to say during the gosar censure vote. >> okay. >> i listened to the speaker talk about the highest standards. madam speaker, when a democratic chair woman flew to minneapolis and told an angry crowd during the trial to stay on the streets. get more active. get more confrontational, we've got to make sure they know we mean business. that high standard, the democrats refused to take action. >> part of the reason why you're giggling is because i interviewed you after you spoke in minneapolis. >> yes. >> this was during the derek chauvin trial. >> that's right. >> it was clear to anybody with ears and who understands your history that when you were talking about confrontation, it was on the streets demanding

justice. >> that's right. >> when you hear the minority leader, another californian, by the way, screeching, because that's what he was doing about you. >> that's right. >> your reaction to him and what he says about you. >> well, you know, i think first of all they don't have any good information. they don't care. they would like to make me, you know, the point of violence. anybody that listened to what i had to say knew that, yes, i support protests. yes, i support freedom of speech. yes, confrontation is one of the tactics that was taught by martin luther king to deal with racism, to deal with discrimination, and so i'm not worried about what he has to say. he's trying to make up a story to say that they have, you know, maxine waters who is preaching violence and this somehow will give them the opportunity to say that democrats are being -- not being equal in the way this they

deal with the violence. when they have violence. it's fronting the system. >> this gold medal or whatever it is that should be awarded to him, i think that's so ridiculous but that is typical of who she is and how she acts

and what she will say. she has no respect for anything, anybody, the constitution, the congress of the united states so we can expect anything from this crazy woman. >> does she add -- i've been talking about the atmosphere of menace that is there on the hill. >> yes. >> is she the active driver of it, or is it marjorie taylor greene, lauren bobert or others? >> she is in the leadership of it. she has no committees. she's been stripped of her committees because of her outrageousness. she walks around the floor with her jeans on sometimes, with a telephone in her back pocket like you see some of the street guys do and she outbursts oftentimes and so she's the leader of the outrageousness, and there's several of them including bobert and others. >> just on this point of jeans

on the house floor. does that break decorum? >> yes, it does. yes, it does. >> you're talking about she is not respecting the rules of the house or the decorum of the house. >> that's right. and they have to go on the floor and ask her to get off and to go change her clothes and so this is how she acts. >> we've got so much more to talk about and i am thrilled that you are going to stick around for the rest of these discussions. coming up, my panel including congresswoman waters who's sticking with us will react to the latest news on this sunday soundoff. keep it right here. right, girl? >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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colorado congresswoman lauren boebert apologized. she suggested -- i can't read

this it makes me so mad and suggesting she was mistaken from a suicide bomber in the capitol. congresswoman criticized and said they were made up and bigoted and is calling on house leadership to talk action against boebert. kevin mccarthy said he is working to facilitate a meeting between the two congress women. notably what he did not say is boebert's comments were wrong. chair of the house finance committee maxine waters and sophia nelson. dean, i am coming to you first. i know how congresswoman waters feels about this. we talked about this a moment ago. dean, lauren boebert.

congresswoman ilhan omar, what in the entire what is going on? >> i'm muslim. i've been writing about this since 2012. this is not new. newt gingrich, herman cain. the result was hate crimes against our community. boebert is doing what is a foundational principal which is demonize people at their face because it makes people happy in your base. boebert has been doing this for months. she's been calling rashida tlaib part of the jihad squad. we're muslims. we're involved in terrorism. they're not going to denounce it. this is who the gop is. they embrace bigotry. they use it. they have no policies but make people hate the other and they make some happiness in their base and this is a sad state of

where the gop is. >> sophia, as someone who is a member of the republican party, is dean right? this has been a foundational thing for the republican party for a long time. the brand of islamophobia as exhibited by lauren boebert. >> jonathan, as the one person on this panel who use today identify as a jack kent republican. those days are over. lauren boebert has me concerned. for me as a black woman it's something a little bit deeper. it's the way i see our white sisters talking to sisters of color, particularly in the house of representatives. it's a demeaning way. to say she is a jihadist. that's your colleague. i think kevin mccarthy continues to be a spineless -- i don't have words how disgusted i am.

he's make a deal with the devil. i think we're going to a dark place because i think the republicans are going to win big in 2022 actually. they were very successful here in virginia in the last election so i expect more of this, not less of it, and i think facilitating a conversation between boebert and omar at this point is useless because this has happened time and time again. she's called aoc, presley and talib the jihad squad. she's not going to stop. she's very intentional of what she's doing. >> let's put up recent sampling of the republican's violent rhetoric. boebert, islam mow phobic remarks. you have congressman gosar and the animae video. marjorie taylor greene, that's just one of two things. she got up into congresswoman cory bush, who moved her office

and congressman yoh hof. congresswoman waters, since you're the only member of the house on this panel and on the show right now, are the democrats going to hold onto the majority? how likely is it that when we're sitting across from each other in 2023 that you're going to be in the minority? >> well, we're working very hard and we know that they are taking every action they can possibly take to demonize us and speak to their constituency out there. that apology you lewded to. they know what they're doing. they fire them all up. so the apology means nothing. as a matter of fact, she's gone viral on that accusation. so we are working very hard and we know that we've got to not only tell the people what we have done but how we have done

it. this has been a most responsible democratic caucus, for example. the president of the united states has led with build back better. we responded to the pandemic in a fantastic way. all of the stimulus checks that have gone out, the support we gave to the unemployed, the support we gave to small businesses and to restaurants and so we've not only had the c.a.r.e.s. act but the american rescue plan. now we're making sure we get rid of poverty with children, with having something that was worked on so hard by the members of congress to give this tax credit to families who are getting checks every month. and so we've got to tell the story about what we have done, how we have done it. the american people are going to be able to distinguish between us and them and in the final analysis we're going to win. we're going to beat them. we don't take anything for granted. we know that they're evil. we know that they lie. we know that they don't give a

darn about facts and so we've got to overcome that with the truth. >> they're evil? i mean, that's a strong word, congresswoman. >> worse than that. evil. evil. when you see the kind of attacks that you have talked about already, that's constantly being made by them, that's evil. and i want you to know, i'm under attack also. they tried to censure me and we beat them back with the majority that we have. and even marjorie taylor greene, i believe, has something up to expel me from the congress of the united states. can you imagine people with this kind of attitude and these kinds of actions and this kind of racism that they display all the time talking about expelling me or anybody else from congress when, in fact, they shouldn't even be there? >> because i was just about to say, wait, expel you? >> yes. yes. >> given what they've done? >> that's right. that's right. >> a lot of nerve.

i'm going to switch gears, dean and sophia, and talk about the january 6th committee. >> yes. >> the fact that starting tomorrow a whole bunch of depositions are supposed to start happening, starting tomorrow. >> yes. >> november 29th. how likely, dean, i'll come to you first on this, how likely is it that we're going to see more people defying their subpoenas? or are we going to see more people coming forward and giving testimony the way they're supposed to under subpoena? >> i think you're going to see some. i think it's really important that the doj has indicted steve bannon. sends a very clear message we're not playing games. this is a congressional subpoena. you're going to go to jail potentially if you don't comply with it. i hope congress will consider subpoenaing lauren boebart. today is 1776. 1776 that's code for violent

revolution to overthrow the government so trump can stay in power. i hope that congress doesn't stop with just some of the proud boys which they are subpoenaing and the oath keepers, but lauren boebart. she tweeted today is 1776 when she knew that was code for violent revolution for those on the right. i want that answer. >> to fee a, less than a minute. what do you think? >> jonathan, what i'm concerned about is our founding principles. our founding fathers gave us three co-equal branches of government for a reason. congress has oversight authority and what i do not like, whether it's democrat or republican; that the congress won't even stand up for itself in this instance and understand that they want the right to issue subpoenas. they want people to comply with congressional oversight. i totally expect more defiance.

i totally exmore i'm not showing up because that's the mood the country is now for a certain portion of us who don't believe they have to comply with congressional oversight. that's a problem long term for this democracy. we're in trouble, we're in trouble, we're in trouble. >> don't go anywhere. my panel is staying put and we'll react to sound from the other sunday shows. don't want to miss it. -had enough? -no... arthritis. here. new aspercreme arthritis. full prescription-strength? reduces inflammation? thank the gods. don't thank them too soon. kick pain in the aspercreme. that's a nice truck. yeah, it's the chevy silverado. check out this multi-flex tailgate. multi-flex, huh? wow. it becomes a step. mom, dad's flexing again. that's not all. you can extend the bed for longer stuff. is he still... still flexing. that's right! and, it becomes a workspace... you can put your laptop here. i'm sending an imaginay email. hey dad, dinner! hey! look who stopped by daddy's office.

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when you diminish, stop or block travel, there's a reason for that. it's to give you time to do that. don't let this decision that was made about blocking the travel from certain countries go without a positive effect and the positive effect is to get us better prepared to rev up on the vaccination, to be really ready for something that may not actually be a big deal but we want to make sure we're prepared for the worst. >> growing concerns over the new omicron variant has the world on defense. it's not all doom and gloom if we take all precautions we need. my panel is back with me. congresswoman waters, dean obidiwa. i had dr. kavita patel on earlier.

we were talking about this new variant, omicron. why she likes the name omicron. she also had something else to say that i think was a bit like smelling salts for the rest of us when we were talking about these variants. have a listen. >> i'm actually glad we have this greek naming system because it's so much more than what we were saying before, quote, south african variant. the only reason we know this was in south africa, let's be candid, they're much better about global viral naming than anywhere including the united states. we're penalizing the people that are doing the job i wish we could do. >> right, dean? such a common sense thing she said, yet it was the first time i've ever heard it said like that as dr. patel is always want to do. >> that's true. i will say when we get to the t variant i hope they name it the trump virus. then it makes more sense than anything. imagine if trump was in office right now, what racist term he

would use for the term for the virus coming interest south africa? it didn't come from south africa. we need to help them expand their vaccination protocols. president biden acted swiftly, within hours of south african ministry saying they found a variant there. he banned flights. president biden is doing what he thinks he can do to make it safer. he's doing it swiftly. i applaud that. >> you know, dean, to your point about the t variant, i didn't use this sound in the previous block but stephen mille -- because it was stephen miller. i'm going to read it. i don't want to show it. he said if president trump was still in office, by the way, we'd already have modified vaccines that dealt with the new variants which is a great point. no, it's not. anyway, i'm just putting that out there. >> jonathan, he would have switched freaking believes to

start drinking fantastic or drain know at this point. that's what he would have done. the guy drinking bleach. change the liquid you're drinking. try a different cleaner. that would solve it. >> come on, dean. let' be fair. he didn't say drink bleach, he said inject it. >> senator bourasso was on fox talking about build back better. have a listen. >> i view this as a back breaking bill for the country with the kind of expenses, the spending, the adding to the debt, the inflation, the taxes that are going to hit the american people. and, you know, for joe biden to say we have to spend even more money on top of inflation, to me this is alice in wonderland logic. he's the mad hatter out here. >> well, let me just say this, the republicans favor the rich. they gave big tax credits under

trump and so now we're stimulating the economy. as a matter of fact, one of the bills that republicans really love is what we're doing for infrastructure where we have at least seven republicans join us and defy the leadership because they know how important it is to create jobs, to have contracts. we've done an excellent job with build back better. we're doing an excellent job with taking care of the failing bridges and water systems that need repair in this country. this is stimulating work for the economy. this inflation that we're experiencing is transitory. it is not going to be here long. and the president is responding to that already. he's going to go and make sure that we go to our reserves and make sure we cause the use of those reserves so that the cost of gasoline can be reduced. he responds very quickly. he's doing a great job. build back better is absolutely

fantastic. it's been good for the country and we are going to keep going. >> so you can say build back better is good for the country because you're a member of the house of representatives. >> yes. >> the house of representatives passed it. >> that's right. >> and sent it over to the senate. >> yes. >> but you and i both know that when build back better comes back to the house from the senate, it might be the shadow of its former self. do you have a red line? are there provisions in the build back better act that you voted for that was sent to the senate that if it does not come back f those things do not come back to the house, that you could see yourself not voting for build back? >> this is a very important bill with very important things in the bill. for example, i as a chair of the financial services committee literally organize 1.50 to 70 billion dialing with housing, people paying 50% of their

income for rent. i've dealt with not only rental assistance but putting money into first-time home buyers, millennials, first generation home buyers. $10 billion into that. $25 billion into rental assistance. this is very important to me. >> i know it's very important. if it doesn't come back from the senate. if all of those things are stripped out of the bill that comes back to the house, would you still vote for build back better? just give me yes or no? >> well, i want to just tell you this, that there are certain things that go beyond what i could accept. i'm going to do everything that i can to look at what has been done and whether or not they're equal compromises across the board, but i will reject some things that may happen on the senate side in stripping that bill, yes. >> sofia, this is going to be a hard switch of gears here because i want to have you listen to governor reaves, mississippi, and what he had to say on "meet the press" about

the arguments that are going to happen before the supreme court. >> if you read the constitution, there is nowhere in the constitution that prohibits individual states, states like mississippi, to limit access to abortion and the far left loves to scream my body my choice and what i would submit to you, chuck, is they absolutely ignore the fact that in getting an abortion there is an actual killing of an innocent unborn child. >> sofia. >> okay. well, legally speaking, he has no idea what he's talking about. the reality is is that roe versus wade is the governing law of this nation right now. abortion is allowed. it is a federal law which takes precedent over and preempts state law, which is why i was shocked to see the direction that the court has been moving towards because if you believe in super precedents like brown versus the board of education,

roe versus wade, miranda, loving versus virginia, if you settle the law, you don't go back and keep tinkering for it. i'm pro life personally, but the law of the land is roe versus wade so states do not have the right to directly contravene the law that the federal government and the supreme court hassett ld as the precedent. it's a basic concept that they teach you in law school. it's not so hard. >> sophia, i'm glad you pointed out you are pro life. there is a 6-3 conservative majority filled with three justices appointed by donald trump who explicitly said i am only going to nominate people to the court who will do away with roe v. wade. how do you -- how does that fly

to your mind being pro life and yet still possibly viewing that the court shouldn't do what they were sent to do given this majority? >> listen, i may be pro life but i'm more pro america and pro freedom. what's good for sofia nelson doesn't have to be good for another woman to make a choice for me. for me, roberts and kavanaugh are going to be the justices have you to watch. they're probably your swing votes. i think amy coney barrett has been very interesting in some of her questioning on this case and others. i'm not sure where she comes down, but i think kavanaugh and roberts probably make this thing a 5-4 and roe versus wade probably survives. i don't think mississippi law is what they will eventually pin the decision of the court on. roe is a precedent of over 50 years. at the end of the day i would be

surprised. stare decisis is something we stand on. >> thank you all very much for coming to "the sunday show." up next, what democrats can learn from a littlenelson, cong maxine waters, thank you so much. coming up what democrats can learn from a little girl. can learn from a little girl do i need to pretreat my laundry? nope! with tide pods, you don't need to worry. the pre-treaters are built in. tide pods dissolve even when the water is freezing. nice! if it's got to be clean, it's got to be tide. the snapshot app from progressive rewards you for driving safe and driving less. okay, what message did you hear this time? safe drivers can save using snapshot? -what's snapshot? -what the commercial was about.

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as we've learned with the final passage of the bipartisan infrastructure bill now law, governing is hard. as we're going to be reminded during the continued and tortuous negotiations over the build back better act, legislating is hard, it's chaotic, it's messy. just before thanksgiving i saw a tiktok video posted on twitter

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a very good day to all of you from msnbc headquarters here in new york. welcome to alex witt reports. we begin with growing concerns over the new omicron variant of coronavirus as more and more countries detect that strain. dr. anthony fauci this morning says it will inevitably hit here in the u.s., which is why it is more important than ever to get vaccinated and get your booster shot. >> even when you have variants of concern, you do well against them. it may not be as good as protecting against initial infection, but it has a very important impact on diminishing the likelihood that you're going to get a severe outcome from it. if you're not vaccinated, get vaccinated. if you're fully vaccinated,