tv Velshi MSNBC December 5, 2021 6:00am-7:00am PST
>> good morning to you. it is 9:00 a.m. in the east. i am ali velshi. every week, we get a trickle of new information about what really happened in the days leading up to the january 6th insurrection and the disgraced former president's attempt to overturn the results of the 2022 election. for almost a few year, we've been collecting bits of information, trying to understand how such an egregious attack on democracy was allowed to happen in the united states. the january 6th county is leading those investigations, but have been keeping their findings to themselves and that could change very soon. during a rules committee meeting this week, the january 6th committee's vice chair, the republican congressman liz cheney made some very curious remarks. >> we anticipate next year we'll be conducting multiple weeks of public hearings, setting out for the american people in vivid
color exactly what happened every minute of the day on january 6th, here at the capitol and at the white house and what led to that violent attack. >> multiple weeks of public hearings, setting out for the american people in vivid color exactly what happened. that's what she said. clearly, they put a lot of work in this investigation if they're prepared to hold multiple weeks of public hearings. committee chair bennie thompson revealed that their investigation has involved the cooperation of 250 people so far. there are at least two former trump associates not included in that list of 250 people. former department of justice official, jeffrey clark, this man, and john eastman, the lawyer. this man. legal scholar who authored a memo for vice president mike pence on how he could do his part to overturn the election results on january 6th. both men are now reportedly planning to plead the fifth. in the meantime, the committee's pressing forward with more depositions scheduled for more trump associates in the coming
days. the list includes michael flynn, stephen miller, kayleigh mcenany. we'll have to see how cooperative these three will be. but meanwhile, a former key figure in the trump orbit is reckoning with the years he spent doing the former president's bidding. michael cohen, who spent more than a decade as president trump's personal lawyer and fixer is a free man again. he recently completed a three-year sentence in prison and home confinement for pleading guilty to multiple charges, including tax evasion. yesterday, he spoke with my colleague, alex witt. >> i made a lot of mistakes, in terms of even just accepting the employment of donald trump in the year of 2007, when i first started -- or working for him going back to somewhere around 2005, 2006. i knew who he was, i knew what he was, but i never saw it to the extent that it ultimately became. i don't know what i was missing in my life that allowed me to fall so deep into the dumpster,
to spend time worrying about and providing so much loyalty to the trump and the family. working on myself every day. >> here with me now is betsy woodruff swann, i always love talking to you. because you have so much information about what is going on with this january 6th committee, there is so much information. let's talk about who's cooperating and what they're doing and what they're doing about those whose information they need, like jeffrey clark and john eastman who do not appear to be cooperating. >> both of these men have pleaded the fifth. clark engaged in a lot of other strategies to try to explain away his refusal to cooperate with the committee before he pleaded the fifth. so legally, he could be in a tougher spot than eastman is. but the question for the committee now is with both of
please men saying, hey, we have a get out of cooperation free card, we're pleading the fifth, does that send a signal to other potential witnesses that there's easy way to kind of slip around the power that the congressional committee has? historically, the reason people don't want to plead the fifth is largely because it looks bad. it's incredibly reputationally damaging to say that they're pleading the fifth, even though from a legal standpoint, it's not an admission of guilt. but we might have entered a post-reputational damage phase when it comes to people who worked with trump in relation to the efforts to overturn the election. some of these folks may have decided that the juice is not worth the squeeze when it comes to trying to preserve what they have left of their reputations, and therefore, pleading the fifth is not actually that big of a hit to them. if this is something that more and more witnesses do, it could create an increasingly sizable problem for the committee. at the exact same time, excuse me, the committee has talked to so many people that even if these folks don't cooperate, we still expect to get an
unprecedentedly detailed look at the way things went so wrong on the 6th. >> there's also some talk about -- we're trying to get donald trump's records, right to get eastman and clark. there's some talk about focusing on some members of congress and their documents and/or communications records. >> that's right. we reported last week that the select committee has actually not yet issued subpoenas to seize the phone me thatmeta dat text messages of members of congress. that's a decision that's been on the table for the committee for at least three months now. they've ordered the telephone companies to preserve those records, so the committee can get to them if they demand them. but the committee hasn't actually taken the step of demanding those records. part of the reason for that is that it would be intensely contentious. it would perhaps be the most contentious decision that the select committee could make. or when or if they make that decision, they want to be careful about it, they want to be strategic and thoughtful, but
it's very much not off the table, if i had to guess, my guess would be that they do issue subpoenas to try to seize these members' phone records, but it's something that they're approaching with a level of caution that is significant and notable. >> betsy, on december 2nd, you tweeted, careick, former new york police commissioner berard carnick. and alex jones floated it as well. >> such an interesting development. more and more of the trump loyalists, of the still-trump loyalists that the committee wants to talk to, have been having conversations with the committee where they suggested public testimony. bernie carrick, according to documents the committee released, jeff clark said he didn't want to answer a
closed-door deposition, but that he proposed answering questions in public. alex jones has talked about it as well. on the one hand, public congressional interviews sometimes turn into very whacky circuses. i would refer people to corey lewandowski's notorious interview with congressional investigators a couple of years ago. on the other hand, congresswoman cheney has now said that the committee is looking to have more public hearings with more witnesses to take what they're learning behind closed doors and to make it public. is it likely that alex jones, jeff clark and bernie carrick participate in any of those hearings? i don't know. but they already have gone out there and suggested that at least in some way, they're willing to talk publicly. it's going to be interesting. >> betsy, good to see you as always. thank you for joining us. betsy woodruff swann is a natural correspondent with politico. >> joining me now is the democratic congresswoman from california, judy chu, the chair of the congressional asian pacific american caucus, and
most importantly for the purpose of today's discussion, she is the sponsor of the women's health protection act. it's a very important bill that seeks to codify roe v. wade. it was passed by the house earlier this year. congresswoman chu, thank you for joining us this morning. i cannot underscore enough, because i think there are lots of americans, myself included, who learn more about abortion in this country by the day. and a lot of americans who would be surprised that their only protection for abortion is the supreme court. and once that goes away, if that goes away, there is no law on the books, other than the one that you have proposed, to actually codify and protect a woman's right to abortion legally in america. >> that is right. and we were able to get this bill together in 2013. that is because we saw in 2011, there were state legislatures that were passing laws to provide medically unnecessary restrictions to a woman's access
to abortion, such as dictating the width of clinic doors or saying that a physician had to have medically unnecessary admitting privileges in a nearby hospital. so we did put together the woman's pleblgt action and indeed, what it does is say that if the roe v. wade decision were to be struck down, that this would become the law of the land. it would enshrine the protections of roe v. wade into statute and say that patients have the ability to receive and providers have the ability to provide abortion carefree from medically unnecessary restrictions. it did pass the house in september on a really strong vote, 218-211. actually, it is the most pro-choice supportive bill in the history of congress. >> let me ask you about this. you, in theory, would get most
if not all democratic votes in the senate on this. and maybe a couple of votes, republican votes in the senate. susan collins, always an enigma on the question of abortion and its legality, has suggested -- she's been floating the idea that she would support codifying abortion rights into law. she's often said things about abortion rights that have not played out in her actions. has she talked to you or have you talked to her. is there a possibility that she could sign on to this? >> well, i definitely know that the senate whip committee, such as as senator blumenthal who's the lead author on the senate side has reached out to susan collins. they have asked her to support this. she purports to be pro-choice. and in fact, these positions got her elected in a very tight election this past time in a state that is considered a swing state. and yet, she is kind of talking
out of both sides of her mouth at this point. she says she's pro-choice, but then she says that the woman's health protection act is too extreme. well, i do think that the voters need to hold her accountable. what do you mean too extreme? actually, what the women's health protection act does is enshrine roe v. wade into law, no more, no less. and that is what women need right now if the supreme court were to overturn roe v. wade, we would immediately see 26 states ban abortion and that the women in those states would have nowhere to turn except to the 15 states that would continue to protect abortion. and this would hurt low-income women the most, who do not have the means to drive or fly to another state and who may not be able to take off work or to be
able to provide child care, so they can do this. so it would -- it would definitely make things so much harder for women across this nation. >> so according to reporting from nbc news, senator collins supports the right to an abortion, believes that protections in roe and casey decisions should be passed into law. she has had some conversations with her colleagues about this and is open to further discussions. so, would you entertain a discussion with her? if she thinks that your law is extreme and you say it's not, would you be open to a discussion to say, let's get this done and let's talk about what you think is extreme in my bill and how we might come to an agreement on it? >> absolutely! and i would also want to share with her our reasons for why it is not extreme. it does what roe v. wade has been doing for the past 50 years. and that is something that the vast majority of americans support. >> you and i have much business to talk about, but i wanted to focus on this one this morning,
because it's important and it is current. so as always, i always invite you. you have an open invitation to join me, because we have many things to discuss. representative judy chu of california. watch her in this, because she does have an actual bill that would make abortion legal under the law in america. all right, from right here in new york to all the way out to hawaii, 16 states and counting have reported confirmed omicron cases and still people resist the vaccine that could curb the spread. and then there's a single abortion provider left standing in the state of mississippi. you have heard about it. it's called the pink house. it's the very same clinic at the center of the court case in the supreme court that is poised to undue decades of abortion rights protection. we're going to talk to one of the doctors who serves in that clinic about what's happening and what comes next. also, oxford high school shooting suspect ethan crumbley and his parents all behind bars this morning. we're on the ground in michigan, right after the break. e on the , right after the break.
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we're learning more about the movements of jennifer and james crumbley, the parents of the alleged michigan school shooter before they were taken into custody by police. yesterday, the crumbleys pleaded not guilty to four counts of involuntary manslaughter for providing their 15-year-old son with the gun that he used to kill four students at his high school. prosecutors pushed for a high bond of $500,000 each and marked them as flight risks after they apparently tried to dodge law enforcement and didn't show up for their arraignments. their son, ethan crumbley, is being charged as an adult for murder and terrorism, for which he pleaded not guilty on wednesday. joining me now live from michigan is megan fitzgerald. megan, what have we learned this morning? >> reporter: well, ali, we know that another person is under investigation. the sheriff's department saying they are looking into the person who allowed jennifer and james crumbley into that warehouse, where they were discovered hiding according to police in
detroit. the attorney for the couple saying that they weren't hiding, they were going to turn themselves in, but the sheriff saying otherwise. take a listen to what he had to say. >> the couple was not responding to texts or phone calls of their attorney. so, again, to us, that's irrelevant. we're looking for them. if they show up, fine. but we're not going to sit at the front desk and tap our fingers until they come in. we were out actively looking for them. working with our partners. and they were taken into custody before that question was asked or answered. were they actually doing to do it? i don't know. but given that they were hiding in a warehouse in detroit, it certainly raises my eyebrows. >> reporter: also, we know the school superintendent for oxford schools saying that he is getting a third party investigator take a look at the actions leading up to this attack. because the big question here is how this suspect was able to return back to the clamor after that shocking discovery by a teacher of drawings from the
suspect that were graphic in nature and very disturbing, showing a gun and another person being shot. so concerning that the suspect's parents were called in, but again, that student was allowed to return back to the classroom and we know that the prosecutor here is saying that she is looking into charges, the possibility of charging school officials, ali. >> megan fitzgerald, thank you for your reporting on this. we'll stay close to you as this develops. megan fitzgerald in pontiac, michigan. we've still got more questions than answers on the new contagious form of coronavirus. but we know one thing, it's in 15 states and kouning. i 15 states and kouning.
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colorado, georgia, hawaii, maryland, minnesota, missouri, nebraska, new jersey, new york, and utah. pretty soon, the list would be pretty soon to keep naming them. but louisiana is reporting a probable case of the variant, we knew about that yesterday, has not been confirmed to be omicron yet. we should note, while omicron is known to be highly transmissible, to our knowledge, there have not been any reports of infections resulting in serious illness, hospitalization, or death in the united states. now, globally, omicron has spread to more than 40 countries worldwide. researchers might be starting to understand why. in a new study, biomedical researchers say that they've sequenced the variant and found a portion of genetic code that also occurs in the virus that causes the common cold. one of the engineers who co-wrote the study says, quote, the striking similarity between omicron and the virus that causes colds could have made the former more accustomed to human hosts and likely to evade some immune system responses, end quote. that's a hint that our current
crop of vaccines and boosters might not stop it. with omicron being so contagious, it reminds us of how susceptible people are in poorer countries that have lower vaccination rates. many of us here in the united states are on to our third vaccine doses at this point, whereas billions of people around the world haven't had even one. and other preventative strategies used by the western world have not been mirrored on a global scale. we all want this pandemic to end, but as long as so many in the community are vulnerable, we may not get there very easily. joining me now is my friend, laurie garrett. the author of "the coming plague: newly emerging diseases in a world out of balance." thank you for joining us. you have been making this point in the last week, which is ultimately, whatever omicron is, however it spreads, and however serious it is, we're going to see lots of this in a world that is not fully vaccinate in a
world where it spreads at a rapid of light. >> if we have in excess of 10% of the population refusing all vaccination and if on top of it all, we have targeted populations around the world of human immunocompromised individuals in the case of south africa, about 25% of reproductive-aged adults are hiv positive. and if you are not fully medicated for your hiv, you are very vulnerable to secondary infections with other microbes. we can see studies that show that the virus can remain inside of a human body constantly mutating and adapting to that human body if the individual is immunocompromised. in in one case, it was more than 116 days of the individual having no symptoms, perfectly fine, but harboring virus that just kept replicating and replicating, and that was an hiv positive individual. so along with everything else,
ali, we have thoroughly disrupted the supply chains for hiv treatment. in fact, the cdc thinks a pretty high percentage of the excess death rate to covid in african-american and latin-x populations here are because of disrupted hiv treatment. >> let's talk a little bit about this concept of the world not being well vaccinated. prior to omicron, we had the president of the united states talking about how we need to step up to ensure that the world is entirely vaccinated. sometimes countries, wealthier countries with excess vaccines are sending these vaccines that don't have them. >> yes, unfortunately, in many countries, we've seen stockpiles, modest stockpiles go to waste, because these vaccines
are in fact perishable, and if you don't have an infrastructure in place, you don't have the capacity or personnel or the ability to keep them sub-ic cold, if you don't have the gloves, the swabs, the alcohol swabs, everything involved in vaccination, you have to have all of it and everybody needs to know how to do the job. it's not that difficult, but training is required. now, we do have a huge infrastructure for childhood vaccinations and that's great. and many countries that are very poor have a achieved extremely high child vaccination rates, in excess of 90% across all vaccines. but we also have, unfortunately, a high level of personal refusal in adults. and so the problem is that our
infrastructure, especially in poor countries, are oriented towards pediatric vaccination, and they're coupled in with general pediatric care. but adult vaccination is harder, regardless of what the vaccine is, it's hard to get access to all adults for, say, hepatitis vaccination. and now, we're coming in with a vaccine that's also highly politicized, where there's a high refusal rate, and a lot of lies and mistruths out there that are confusing people and leading to inappropriate action. and ali, i have said over and over and over again, and in my latest piece in foreign policy magazine, i go through all of the statistical details. we need to be targeting immunocompromised populations all over the world right now. otherwise, these crazy mutations, just a new pre-print last night came out that shows that some of the gene mutations found in the omicron appear to have animal origin.
from mink, we know there was an outbreak in mink populations. from cats, from dogs. even from gorilla. so we're creating this huge set of walking petri dishes all over the world. human beings that don't have enough treatment for whatever their underlying disorder is, whether it's diabetes, hiv, cancer. they're not adequately treated to keep their immune system operating at full tilt. and now you swirl in all kinds of viruses, prior common cold viruses, a virus from a cat, hiv, what have you, and we're getting these mixes that are resulting in many cases in very dangerous changes. >> lori, thanks for your research, for the writing that you've done. i would guide people towards your writing, because you have the most current information on this. lori garrett is a pulitzer prize winning journals and the author of "the coming plague: newly emerging diseases in a world out of balance."
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something else. in fact, she already has the fourth highest amount of winnings in the show's history. and at just 13 games, marked by her quick wit and response time, extreme intellect and willingness to bet big. schneider's also an aspirational figure for another reason. she's the first transgender contestant to qualify for the show's prestigious tournament of champions, a competition for the season's top players who have won at least five games in a row. during a game early in her run, schneider subtly wore a pin of the transgender flag, later tweeting that she, quote, wanted to represent that part of my identity accurately, as important, but also relatively minor. adding that she, quote, also didn't want it to seem as if she was some kind of shameful secret. he also told "the washington post" of her historic accomplishments saying, until someone does it, it can feel unattainable. it's one minor area of human achievement, but it still means something and it means something to see trans people succeed
everywhere, end quote. joining me now is my colleague jonathan capehart, the coast of the sunday show, who typically joins us to talk about our show. but this is a big deal. representation really does matter. and representation to some of us on "jeopardy!" is one of the biggest forms of representation there are. >> it's terrific, what she had to say. because, you know, symbols matter, representations matters. and for those of us in marginalized community, when we see someone, well, one, we want to see ourselves. we love to see ourselves reflected back at us. but when we do, that means that that thing is possible. being a contestant on "jeopardy!" is possible. being anchors on national television is possible. doing things that you dream of is possible, when you see someone who looks like you, is part of your community, is doing it, as well.
so, you know, i applaud -- i applaud her. and i applaud you, ali, for constantly shining a light on marginalized communities, but especially the transgender community. >> as do you, jonathan. tell us what's coming up. >> coming up on "the sunday show," we've got white house principle deputy press secretary, karine jean-pierre. she'll be here to talk about what they're trying to do build back better over the finish line. plus, parkland school shooting survivor david hogg has strong opinions about the recent deadly shooting at a michigan high school. the parents charged in connection with the case, and why he feels gun control laws have to change now. and ali, i know you've been covering this quite a bit as roe v. wade hangs on by a thread. we look at the larger issue of other precedent-setting issues facing a very enuncertain future. and i had an interview with san francisco mayor london breed, just minutes before she
announced to america that the first omicron case was in the united states in san francisco. >> you have a lot coming up. thank you, jonathan. looking forward to it. jonathan capehart helms the sunday show. it's the pink house versus the state of mississippi. literally, the last abortion clinic standing in the state is headed to the supreme court. we'll speak with a doctor who's helping the case. k with a docto helping the case i'll need you today. our sleigh is now ready, let's get on our way. a mountain of toys to fulfill many wishes. must be carried across all roads and all bridges. and when everyone is smiling and having their fun i can turn my sleigh north because my job here is done. it's not magic that makes more holiday deliveries to homes in the us than anyone else, it's the hardworking people of the united states postal service. it's the most joyous time of the year. it's the hardworking especially at t-mobile! let's go to dianne. i got the awesome new iphone 13 pro and airpods,
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if you watch this show a lot, you know we talk about the pink house. the state of mississippi hads only one abortion clinic left standing. it's called the jackson women's health organization, known as the pink house. the pink haven is the only place left in mississippi where a woman can get an abortion. it's become ground zero in the national fight for women's reproductive rights. it was painted bright pink so there would be no mistake that this was a safe place for women
and no one who worked there or went there should be ashamed of it. for years, women have been ushered through the door, shuffling past protesters waving religious pamphlets and shouting many their faces. doctors even traveled from out of state to help with procedures that local physicians will not facilitate, to make sure that women receive the care to which they're entitled. mississippi recently banned abortions past 15 weeks of pregnancy, and the jackson women women's health,or took up the fight, suing the state. that's the case before the supreme court. those repercussions are going to go far beyond the state of mississippi. the supreme court could wipe away decades of precedent under roe v. wade, the law that establishes the constitutional right to abortion if the supreme court rules in favor of the mississippi law, it's a direct challenge to roe v. wade and access to legal abortion could end for more than 100 million americans. joining me now is dr. willie parker who travels to
mississippi to provide abortions at the pink house clinic. thank you forring with us. where's your mind right now about the case that's before the supreme court and the very real threat of abortion rights for women disappearing not just in mississippi, but in 26 more state if this court case goes the wrong way for them? >> thank you for having me this morning. and just to be clear, i no longer work at the pink house, but i still stand in solidarity with all of my colleagues and the people there. my mind is where i think anybody who has been serious about making sure that women have access to this care, dr. king said when evil people plot, good people must plan. and i'm not vilifying people who are against abortion, but it is to say that those of us who do this work have been planning for this day, because the women will become no less needier once it happens. i think we've been thinking about this in -- not to oversimplify it. what clinics will do if roe is
overturned. what women and pregnant people will do, and what those of us who are providers will do. and there will be what the state will do in response to what we try to do when roe is overturned. clinics will either close. they will either set up referral networks for those that can stay open, and they will participate in what providers and doctors need to do, which is called harm reduction. when abortion was illegal in countries like uruguay and south america up until 2012, doctors and providers sought to make sure that there were things that they could do independent of doing the abortions to make abortions safe for women. so before the abortion, they would counsel women with regard to what their risk factors were. they would help them to establish the pregnancy and how far along it was. they would tell them what to look for in the event that they did try to self-manage, and warn them against self-managing if they were too far along.
and if after the abortion, they made sure that there was a place for women to go to make sure that they were okay. if it was an incomplete abortion, they would offer evacuation of the uterus or if it was a complication, they would just try to make sure that women had a safe place to go without stigma. i think that that's what we'll be left with, for those of us who it will just be unconscionable to do nothing in the face of women being endangered by abortion being overturned in roe falls, so it will depend on where you stand and what you, but all of us have been thinking about this all along. >> and we're grateful you are thinking about it in an interview in september in the atlantic, you were asked about medication abortions, and you said, i think it comes down to, do we trust women. those are driven by paternalistic decisions about women can be trusted with decisions.
the same questions were asked to black people when they were once enslaved. i find the strong parallels to the very paternalistic decisions of, women can't be trusted. we trust them to have babies, to go to war, to buy alcohol, and buy guns, but we cannot trust them whether or not to end a pregnancy just rings a little hallow to me. >> i still feel that way, ari, this is really about power and what we know and what the people who are committed to this the a deep level mow or understand, if a woman or a pregnant person doesn't control their fertility or reproduction, they don't control much else about their lives. this really rings hollow with regard to them being some really deep commitment to the notion of the sanctity of life, because in order to give rights to the fetus that a woman carries, they have to devalue the life of that woman, because you can't give a fetus rights that you don't take away from a woman.
it's easier to love a fetus, but not the complex life of a person who is living as a woman in a patriarchial society. >> what happens with abortion if this ruling goes against the pink house? >> in texas, there'll be what happens to a women and providers with regard to what we do in response to the laws. and texas have told us what they and what other states who follow their lead will do. just last thursday, texas made it a felony to provide medication abortion after seven weeks. so they are saying in no uncertain terms with their laws that don't have any exceptions for the health or the condition of the woman, that under no circumstances do they consider an abortion a reasonable option
for someone. and so they are going to make the power of the institute absolute over women by saying by, even the things that you can do beyond our reach, we will still come for you. to medication abortion complicated by making even the drugs that women could get to go around the system even more harder to get, and that will also be accompanied by the hunting for women who actually have miscarriages and incarcerating them under the guice even when they miscarry, that's something they did to cause the abortion and they will be suspicious even when they miscarry. i'm thinking some of the people who have already been prosecuted for miscarriages. >> dr. willie parker is an
ob/gyn and author of life's work, a more argument for choice. we're staying on this topic and looking at it through the lens of the law when we come back. and driving less. okay, what message did you hear this time? safe drivers can save using snapshot? -what's snapshot? -what the commercial was about. -i tune commercials out. -me too. they're always like blah, blah blah. tell me about it. i'm going to a silent retreat next weekend. my niece got kicked out of one of those. -for talking? -grand larceny. how about we get back to the savings? [ everyone agreeing ] dad are you sure you're up to host? how about we get back to the savings? yeah! we want to keep it the way it always was, right? ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪
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author genie gerson writes the point of a fundamental constitutional right is it shouldn't be at the people's mercy particularly when the composition of the court has been shifted through political means for this purpose. the spectacle of states braze ly floog in the constitution precedent making illegal actions to make legal after all would effectively communicate the supreme court is not in fact supreme. joining me on set, this is a treat, is our own friend joyce vance, former united states attorney, a professor at the university of alabama law school, and an msnbc contributor. you see her very regularly on this network. ia don't see this all that much. it used to happen. great to have you back, my friend. justice sotomayor commented on this, this week. this idea that the supreme court does move as opinion changes over time. but it needs to be careful about not swaying too fast, not too
being too far behind public opinion. public opinion is not a decision against the pink house in the mississippi case. public opinion about whether or not abortion should be criminalized is actually very clear right now. most people believe it shouldn't. >> it is clear. so in the law, we have this concept of stare decisis, which means stand by cases that are decided. and there are very limited cases where supreme court will reverse longstanding precedent, and it will be only in the most extreme serious of cases plessyv. ferguson, i think genie makes a very good point in her article. it comes down to this. we have all been very delicate about saying this so let's not be delicate. we have a supreme court where at least two justices have arrived at their seats through very political means. one because the senate led by mitch mcconnell said no vote on a supreme court justice in the last year of a presidency.
we don't get merrick garland. we get neil gorsuch. and then shockingly in 2020, after voting has begun in an election. amy coney barrett is confirmed. now, the supreme court with those two new justices on it along with brett kavanaugh, the third of the trump appointees is looking at over turning 48 years of precedent that guaranteed women rights. something women have relied on. the question sotomayor raises is, will this destroy, will this decimate our legitimacy with the public that comes to us to decide their most serious concerns. >> because they will start to think it's political. the irony is we ran some video yesterday of all of these justices, conservative justices, during their hearings in which they said exactly what you said about starry decises. roe and casey v. planned parenthood being established law. they didn't give hints that they would vote to overturn it. so why the change? what's happened?
>> i'm not sure it's a change. the former president, of course, was very clear that he wouldn't put anyone on the supreme court who was not committed to reversing roe. so that, too, adds to this notion there is a political litmus test. the court decides difficult issues when there are close calls that we cannot decide for ourselves. if they don't have legitimacy in the eyes of the public, then it's tough to have confidence in these decisions. you know, abortion is a tough issue. and people have strong beliefs on both sides. when the court balances those different beliefs, it does it in a principled, legal way. if the court suddenly says, we were wrong 48 years ago. we were wrong in casey where we reconsidered all of these issues in the 1990s and found no reason to reverse roe but illuminated what we meant in terms of when states could intervene in women's rights. and now suddenly, in 2021, it will be 2022, i guess, we're going to say everything was wrong, and we need to change the
law. as you point out, there's someplace north of 50% of the people in this country who believe that right is a correct one. and where does that leave our legal system in our country? >> it's important people recognize the distinction there, that is there may be a lot of people who don't like abortion or don't feel like they would have an abortion. that's not the relevant question. the question is the legality, whether you criminalize an crim those who are involved in it. that's what people need to stay focused on. glats right, because there are states like alabama, who will criminalize doctors to perform procedures with no exception for rape or incest, so the issue is this. who gets to make the decision about abortion? is it the woman whose body that this whole issue is going on in, or is it the state? does the state of mississippi get to tell women in mississippi they have no control over their own lives? that means a lot about abortion and reproductive care, and it means a lot about the status of women in our society. >> that's the important part.
joyce, thanks. so good to see you in person. may there be many more such occasions. joyce vance, former united states attorney, professor at university of alabama school of law, and also the cohost of the sisters in law podcast. thanks for watching velshi. catch me here every saturday and sunday morning. the sunday show with jonathan capehart begins right now. the biden agenda is facing critical deadlines. a complicating economy, and a new covid variant. white house official karine jean-pierre is here to talk about it all live. the parents of the michigan school shooting suspect have been charged and i'll ask david hogg what it will take to stop the next school shooting. and my conversation with the mayor of san francisco as her city became the first to report the omicron variant in the united states. i'm jonathan capehart. this is the sunday show.