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tv   The Sunday Show With Jonathan Capehart  MSNBC  December 5, 2021 7:00am-9:00am PST

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so good to see you in person. may there be many more such occasions. joyce vance, former united states attorney, professor at university of alabama school of law, and also the cohost of the sisters in law podcast. thanks for watching velshi. catch me here every saturday and sunday morning. the sunday show with jonathan capehart begins right now. the biden agenda is facing critical deadlines. a complicating economy, and a new covid variant. white house official karine jean-pierre is here to talk about it all live. the parents of the michigan school shooting suspect have been charged and i'll ask david hogg what it will take to stop the next school shooting. and my conversation with the mayor of san francisco as her city became the first to report the omicron variant in the united states. i'm jonathan capehart. this is the sunday show.
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>> this sunday, amid the holiday season, the omicron variant is top of mind. it's now been detected in at least 15 states, and the biden administration is moving quickly to try to curb the spread here at home and abroad. starting tomorrow, international travelers coming into the united states must test negative for covid one day before getting on that plane. and 9 million vaccine doses will soon be on the way to africa. meanwhile, there are mounting concerns over increased russian military troops on ukraine's border. president biden and russian president vladimir putin will speak on a video call this tuesday where biden is expected to reaffirm u.s. support for ukraine. >> and calls for gun reform are growing after the parents of the michigan school shooting suspect were charged with involuntary manslaughter. we'll get into all of this and
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more with our first guest. joining me now, white house principle deputy press secretary karine jean-pierre. welcome back to the sunday show, and live and in person. >> happy to be here. happy to be here with you in person, my friend. really excited about it. >> let's start with the last thing, not the last thing, but the middle thing i taukd about, the fact that the president is going to be having a video call with russian president vladimir putin on tuesday. i noted in there that we are expected that the president is going to express u.s. support for ukraine. what else can we expect the president to bring up? >> i don't want to get ahead of the president, clearly this is going to be an important call that he will have with the president. president putin. look, one of the things that president biden says all the time, there's no substitute for a leader-to-leader dialogue and engagement. that's what you're seeing here. a big part of that is to make sure we continue advancing u.s. interests so that clearly is going to be a big component.
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but they're going to talk about a range of issues. you mentioned ukraine and some other things that affect the region. so again, i'm not going to get ahead of the president. but certainly he's looking forward to talking. >> and we should expect a read-out of that conversation after -- >> as you know, we'll put out a read-out so all can see. >> which will be a change from the previous administration because whenever those two leaders talked, we always found out by the russians. >> which administration are you talking about? >> never mind. >> let's talk about the omicron variant and the new restrictions on international travelers. ort at least folks coming into the united states and the restrictions on them having to get a covid test, negative test before getting on that plane. how else is the administration tackling this variant, which from what i understand, is even more transmissible than delta. >> yeah, so one thing i do want to say right now is that the
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cases that we're seeing currently across the country, 99.9% is still delta. that's the thing, we have to deal with covid head on, and what we're seeing today. and look, a couple days ago, i can't remember my days, on wednesday, thursday, the president talked about what we were doing. a robust plan that he is putting forward about a dozen or so actions that builds on what we know works. making sure that people are getting their boosters if they're eligible. making sure people are getting vaccinated so folks who still haven't gotten your vaccine, make sure you get that. we want you all to be fully vaccinated. what we're trying to do this covid-19 winter plan is what he's calling it, what we're calling it, really gives maximize protection for the american public, as we're going into these next several months, and we're talking about putting out lifting up or standing up family clinics so a lot of people want to make sure when they get those boosters or when they get their vaccination, they
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do it as a family. making sure more people get boosted, strengthening our travel protocol, a slew of things that will be important, critical in making sure we beat back this virus. what we're trying to do is slow down covid and also accelerate our way out of this pandemic. >> one of the ways the president wants to do that is through vaccine mandates. and mask mandates, and yet there are folks, well, one, the president has been stopped in the courts. you have folks on capitol hill who are trying to prevent the president from doing this. >> who tried to shut down the government. >> thank you for making that point. they tried to shut down the government to get this through. for those folks who are sitting out there who might not have gotten vaccinated, please explain to them why it is important to get vaccinated. >> it's so critical important to get vaccinated. as we are dealing with these multiple crises because of covid, if we want to get out of going back to having a normal
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life, and we understand there's a lot of people feeling anxiety from covid. we have to get vaccinated. we have to take care of ourselves, of our communities, of our brothers and sisters. just to talk about the vaccine requirements just a moment. they work. we see 60% of businesses, there's a survey that came out that show businesses are already doing this because they want to keep their workplace safe. that's how we get the economy moving again. the president has already done that with passing the historic american rescue plan, as we're seeing the numbers, right, 6 million jobs created since he's been in office. we saw the jobs report show 4.2% of unemployment, that's 2% lower than when he started. that means that there is workforce participation. we're creating jobs, as i just stated, and also people are just getting back in there. but we have to make sure, we have to make sure that we get covid behind us to continue the successes that we're seeing.
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>> the subtext from what i'm hearing you say in that answer is, we're not going to be shutting things down. >> we are absolutely not shutting -- and here's the thing. the reason why is because the president and congressional democrats passed the american rescue plan, which was so historic that also by the way that republicans did not vote for, but what it helped us do is it helped the economy get started back up, as i was just listing out, making sure we're opening small businesses back up and schools were getting back open, making sure we gave middle class families with kids a little bit of cash back in their pockets. and all of these things help us to be where we are today. now, what we need to do is continue to build on that progress, which is why the president is pushing his build back better agenda, having those conversations on congress with senators. he had a cansation with senator murray, senator kaine this week to make sure we get this done to continue to lower the cost for families as we're moving through
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these next couple months. >> i want to get to the michigan school shooting, but since you brought up build back better. chuck schumer says we're going to get this passed by christmas. is the president as confident as the majority leader? >> the president is optimistic. he says this all the time. we have to look at what build back better does. it lowered cost. let me get into the specifics. we're talking about child care, talking about getting the economy back up. we have to make sure people are able to have affordable child care. so that's one. elder care, as well. you have these families that are this sandwich generation where they're dealing with their children and their elder parents. so that's really important. universal pre-k, housing, affordable housing. making sure prescription drugs are affordable for people. all of these things are going to lower costs and it's building on the historic investments that we have done with the american rescue plan. oh, and one more thing. i want to make sure -- >> but wait, there's more.
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>> it's going to be fully paid for because we want to make sure that the wealthiest among us, the corporations are doing their -- paying their fair share, and it's going to lower inflation as well, ease inflation as we have heard from economists, independent economists say that over and over again. all of those things are important for your viewers to know. >> we have to talk about the school shooting in michigan. the details of the case, particularly as it involves the parents, are truly shocking and horrifying. but you know, i'm going to be speaking with david hogg, survivor of parkland, later on in the show, and i interviewed him when the supreme court heard the new york gun case. and in his response in that interview where i ask what can be done, he had a lot to say, and he also said president biden, do something. you need to do something. what are the conversations like in the white house when it comes to not just school shootings but how -- what can you do to at
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least try to stop the next one, because we know there's going to be a next one. >> that's the sad part about this. look, the president spoke about the tragedy that we saw in michigan at the high school when he was in minnesota on wednesday and talked about the unimaginable loss. and our hearts go out to the families, and we want to make sure we say that as well because it's really, when you lose someone in your family, it's such a hole in the family, but a hole in the community, and we're losing young people and we're losing old people. and it is a sad, sad situation that we're in. but the president has been a leader in this, on this issue with gun reform and preventing gun violence since his senate days. he was a leader as vice president he was a leader, and now. so he has indeed used every power, every lever of the white house to put out executive orders. he did that in april with
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reining in ghost guns. he did that again in june when it came to preventing crime. we did all that we can. he's going to continue to do that, to do the work. and he's encouraging congress to pass three pieces of legislation that's going to deal with gun violence. one going back to build back better for a second, there's $5 billion in there to deal with community violence. right? proven evidence-based community violence effort. that's another reason why we need to get that done. and it's not just violence at school, as we know. there's suicide by firearm. there is domestic violence as well by firearm. so all of these things we need to deal with, and he's going to continue to work as diligently, as hard as he can, to deal with this issue. >> and unfortunately, in everything that you said, that's all the president can do because in order to really do a lot of the things you were just talking about, it requires congress to act. good it really does.
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we are constantly encouraging them to do so and talking, having those conversations as well. >> you know, if the slaughter of babies in newtown, connecticut, wasn't enough to get congress to move on this issue, sadly, i'm not sure what will. but it is -- >> we have to keep working on it, jonathan. can't stop. >> it's good that the white house is still working on it and that the president has this as top of mind. karine jean-pierre, principle deputy press secretary at the white house. thank you very much for coming back to the sunday show. >> appreciate it. coming up, which camera? could this be the beginning of the end for roe v. wade and what does it mean for other precedent setting cases before the supreme court? we'll discuss that next.
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a right that is so fundamental to so many americans and so central to their ability to participate fully and equally in society. the court should not overrule the central component of women's liberty. >> this week, the supreme court moved one terrifying step closer to overturned roe v. wade, spelling the end of the constitutional right to abortion for more than 65 million american women who live in states poised to outlaw abortion. it would also spell the end to the court's historic respect for its own precedent.
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the court has overturned its own decisions only 233 times out of thousands of cases in its entire history. to do so now would throw the court's future into jeopardy. joining me now are ruth marquez, deputy editorial page editor and columnist at "the washington post," and maya wiley, msnbc legal analyst. thank you both very much for coming back to the sunday show. let me play for you, and i know you have probably heard this sound bite from justice sotomayor over and over and over again, but for me, this question, this statement that she makes in this sound that we're going to hear, is central to this entire conversation. let's play it and talk about it on the other side. >> the senate sponsor said we're doing it because we have new justices on the supreme court. will this institution survive the stench that this creates in the public perception that the
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constitution and its reading are just political acts? i don't see how it is possible. >> and so, ruth, that is the crux of what's happening here. in the end, it's the legitimacy of the court that's at stake here in addition to roe v. wade, right? >> it is. and i thought that was one of the most remarkably powerful, remarkably raw moments that i have heard from a supreme court justice in that chamber. for her to use the word stench, i wrote a column about this at that's not a word that one uses lightly. that's not a word you use without thinking long and hard about it beforehand. but that is the reality. the stench of politics surrounds the court when it is very clear
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that if roe and casey are to be overruled, it will be solely because of a change in membership from the court. >> and maya, the bigger issue here for me, also, in addition to the stench of politics that would be wafting through the supreme court, but also then the danger to other precedents of the court being put at risk. personally, i'm most concerned about obergefell and what that did for marriage ecallty in this country. am i being hyperbolic in warning that given what might happen in this mississippi case, that the constitutional right to same-sex marriage could next be on the chopping block? >> yeah, unfortunately, jonathan, i have to say you're absolutely right to be concerned. and it's both anyone who seeks to be married under laws now
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protected byober fell. the right to contraception, the right to all kinds of medical procedures. it opens the door in a very dangerous way to eroding many fundamental rights. i want to get back to the stench point. i would say one critical point that was made in the argument by justice sotomayor, but part of why it was so important isn't really that mississippi deeply political, blood red state, very religious, and for so many reasons, just in terms of who's been running that state, would try to figure out whether it had the opportunity to overrule roe. there was nothing politically surprising about that or unusual. what was unusual is that the supreme court said, despite the fact that for 50 years the court has repeatedly found that we
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have a fundamental right to control decisions over our bodies, that now it was going to hear this case was the first signal that it was a politicized court. because if it was truly following precedent, it would have said, we have settled this. we settled this in 1973. we settled this in 1992. we have been here, done that, and we're not going to go have a case conversation when the precedent is clear and set. so the very fact that they took it was when the stench began. >> and, you know, ruth, you mentioned a moment ago that you wrote a column about stench. but before that, online, but in the paper today is your opinion essay, monster piece, but every word is important, where the headline is, the rule of six, a newly radicalized supreme court, is poised to reshape the nation,
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and you write, a five justice majority is inherently fragile and necessitates compromise and discouraged overreach. five justices tend to proceed with baby steps. a six-justice majority is a different animal. you go on -- you go on to say, a six justice majority such as the one now firmly in control is the judicial equivalent of the monarchy's heir and a spare. the pathways to victory are in large the overall impact is far greater than the single digit difference suggests. go ahead, ruth. >> thank you, and jonathan, i apologize for interrupting you reading my words. far be it for me to do that. i thought you saw the rule of six on very vivid and kind of brutal display in the oral argument on wednesday. what we saw was that the chief justice who seems to be interested in a compromise that would simply, simply, and i say this with some sarcasm, simply
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cut off at 15 weeks. 15 weeks seems long enough, he said. it does not seem like his five fellow conservatives were interested at all in that supposed compromise. they seemed much more interested, you can never tell for sure from oral argument. they did seem much more interested in being willing to go all the way. i do think, as i wrote, it's not just abortion. it's expanding gun rights. it's expanding religious rights. it's constricting affirmative action and other civil rights. it's constricting voting rights. i would say that i would slightly calm you down a little bit on the question of the future of same-sex marriage because as a theoretical matter, maya is entirely right. the same intellectual underpinnings for the right to abortion are the intellectual
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underpinnings for the right to marriage equality and the right to sexual autonomy and liberty, but i don't think the court and the country have the same appetite in this area as they do in abortion. abortion is what they have been gunning for, for the last 50 years. >> for the last 50 years. ruth marquez, the headline on your monster piece in the paper today, the rule of six, a newly radicalized supreme court, is poised to reshape the nation. you can also find it at i encourage everybody to read it. maya wiley will be back with us in the next hour. coming up, yet another mass school shooting, this time in michigan. and we still don't have commonsense gun laws. survivor david hogg joins me next to discuss. stay with us. [coughing] ♪ birds flyin' high, you know how i feel. ♪ ♪ breeze driftin' on by... ♪ if you've been playing down your copd,... ♪ it's a new dawn, it's a new day,... ♪
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it's a lot harder for people who have died from gun violence to speak for themselves. they can't, so we have to bheer. i want to be in college right now. but because my generation has been failed in many ways by not all the people that have come before us, but by many of the people, especially the leaders that have come before us, we have to be here fighting. you know, but that's why we remain hopeful. we can be the last generation to have to deal with this issue. >> my conversation with david hogg last month seems even more timely now. tuesday, four children were killed in a shooting at oxford
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high school in michigan. allegedly by their 15-year-old class mate. it was the deadliest school shooting since the one at marjory stoneman douglas high school in 2018, and the 28th this year. the parents of the alleged shooter are in jail after pleating not guilty to involuntary manslaughter charges. earlier this week, when presented with the opportunity to expand background checks for gun sales, senate republicans blocked the motion again. if children dying at school can't inspire gun control laws, what can? joining me now once again is cofounder of march for our lives, david hogg. david, it's kind of odd to say nice to see you, given the circumstances that have brought us together again. but i just like your initial reaction to what happened at oxford high school. >> it's horrific. you know, i had -- i have had
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some people reach out to me through twitter, through my dms and everything, asking me what they can do for relatives and things like that. i can tell you, jonathan, as is the case with what happened at my high school, this doesn't get easier. and there is nothing you can say to anyone to make them feel better as a result of this. and the only thing that our country can do is work towards preventing these things before they happen in the first place. >> let me play for you the sound from the prosecutor in michigan, karen mcdonald, what she had to say about charging the parents. >> i want to be really clear. these charges are intended to hold the individuals who contributed to this tragedy accountable and also send a message. gun owners have a responsibility. when they fail to uphold that responsibility, there are serious and criminal
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consequences. >> you know, what makes what she said there and the actions she took charging the parents of the alleged shooter so interesting is that it's so rare. do you think that, you know, whenever there's a school shooting, absolutely, the parents should be held responsible as well as the shooter? >> you know, i'm not a legal expert, but i think we can say specifically in this case, there is clear negligence that was happening, if not worse than that. and i think this obviously goes on a case-by-case basis, but more than anything, jonathan, i think if we're just talking about how we hold these parents accountable after these things happen, we're failing our children. because the reality is four kids still died that day. 17 parents and kids and teachers, you know, died at parkland. we can't just be talking about how we respond to these things afterwards. we need to act proactively. we need the white house especially to be acting
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proactively and be using the bully pulpit and all for breaking the filibuster around gun violence prevention, and realizing why president biden and the white house says they have used every level of executive power they have, frankly, that's not true. they could apoint a national director of gun violence prevention today without any senate confirmation necessary, but they have yet to do that. they have yet to call directly to break the filibuster for gun violence prevention, and frankly, universal background checks, while a good first step, are barely enough to address the 40,000 people that die, 45,000 people that dianialy from gun violence in this country. >> david, last question, and i'm struck by the irony in the last block we were talking about roe v. wade, and you know, the potential of the loss of women having a constitutional right to abortion. some of the same people standing in the way of gun control laws are some of the same folks who claim that they are pro-life
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when it comes to the unborn. your response to those folks. >> my response is obviously gun violence, if you're pro-life, you're pro gun violence prevention. on top of that, i wanted to say, it's important to point out how much of gun violence in general is a product of injustice and in this case, political injustice. young people have turned out at the highest rates in our lifetime, at the highest rate in 2018 and the highest rate ever in 2020, and unfortunately, we live in a system where millions of people have had their right to vote forcibly taken from them because of a system of racist mass incarceration and the fact the are millions in this country who can vote but don't have representation, that is extreme injustice that every american should be enraged about in the first place. that's a whole other conversation that needs to be had as well. >> david hogg, again, i want to thank you for coming on. i know that every time there is a shooting, you are called on to come on and speak. not just here but other places. so i really appreciate your
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taking the time to be here this morning. have a good sunday, and take care of yourself. >> thank you. and in the future, i can't wait to be on here talking about the successes we have in congress that the biden administration can honestly push through. >> all right. coming up, i sat down with the 45th mayor of san francisco, my interview with london breed is next. next bull-rider i'm used to taking chances. but when it comes to my insurance i don't. i use liberty mutual, they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. wooo, yeaa, woooooo and, by switching you could even save 665 dollars. hey tex, can someone else get a turn? yeah, hang on, i'm about to break my own record. yeah. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪
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this week, i sat down with san francisco mayor london breed to talk about the unique challenges facing the city and her vision of its future. seconds after our interview ended, mayor breed walked across the street to city hall to give a nationally televised press conference on the arrival of the omicron variant in san francisco. the first documented case in the united states. and that's also where our conversation began. watch. >> mayor london breed, welcome to the sunday show. >> thank you. good to be here. >> we have a lot of stuff to
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cover. first, omicron, the first confirmed case in the united states is here in san francisco. when the coronavirus hit, you were the first big city mayor to shut the city down, to contain the pandemic. are you thinking about that in response to omicron? >> well, we're still having discussions because we're not 100% certain exactly what its impacts will be. we're still studying that. the reason why we were able to diagnose this case has everything to do with the science and technology that exists in san francisco. and so i really want to give a shout out to the university of california san francisco because they have been really incredible partners in research and in helping us to look at the data and the science to make the right decisions for san francisco. >> so what you're saying is at this point right now, shutting down the city is not on the table. >> it's not on the table at this time. and we're working together to make sure that we communicate to the public everything that we
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have. whenever we get information, it's important to make sure people are aware, but we still don't know the impacts of this variant and what it might mean for the future as it relates to vaccines and other things. i think the message here today is just really get vaccinated so that we can get to a better place and as this progresses, we'll have more information to explain to the public what it will truly mean. >> how is vaccination going here in san francisco? >> 77% of all san franciscans are fully vaccinated so we're hoping to get to 80%. we're doing really well, so i'm really grateful for that. >> another topic of conversation here in the city, and in the country, quite frankly, is the series of what's been called smash and grab robberies at high-end stores here in san francisco. i was walking around union square and heard hammers banging on plywood and the drills putting the plywood in front of
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stores of many stores in union square. what is your response to what's happening? also, i saw lots of police and police cars all around. >> yeah, and our response has been, you know, a larger police presence. and since a major incident occurred at a number of stores in the downtown area, we had no other choice but to cancel all vacations and all time off for our police department to make sure that they are not only in our downtown union square area but they're all over the city in our various neighborhoods where we have commercial corridors because we know that oftentimes people are coming out shopping during the holiday season and we want to make sure that they're not victims. so that's been our response, and so far, it's been a great response and we haven't seen the challenges that we have seen in the past. >> you know, some of the people are blaming the san francisco district attorney for the reason why this has been happening.
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cash bail being eliminated. is that a fair -- is that why this is happening? >> well, i think that it's happening for a number of reasons. you know, people are not working. we have sadly a major income inequality gap that we need to address. and investment we need to make to make sure people have opportunities to find gainful employment and develop their own businesses and do other things that will allow them to have financial resources. and i think it's a combination of things. yes, there is -- it's necessary for us to push for criminal justice reform because of our unjust laws and how they impact certain communities more than others, but more importantly, there also has to be a component of accountability. i think that the accountability component is not as strong as it needs to be to deter the crimes we're seeing. >> by that am i to infer the
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elimination of cash bail might be one of those things? >> i don't know if that's a fair assessment to say cash bail, the elimination of cash bail in particular is a problem. i think that when we look at the particular crimes, it's important for the d.a., the judge, to ruly make sure they look at what the person is being accused of and insure that, you know, if you're going to allow someone to be out on bail in any capacity, they're not a threat to society in any way, especially when we talk about someone who could physically harm another individual. and i think that that's still a problem because there are people that have been arrested on things that involve being physical, assaulting other people, that have been released. that is what i think is the bigger problem here. >> former president donald trump put out a statement reacting to what's happening here in san francisco, but in other -- >> he loves san francisco, doesn't he? >> he really does.
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he's saying the national guard should be sent here to take control of the crime situation here. your response to that. >> well, i hope that the national guard doesn't consist of those people he sent to the capitol to basically raid that building and really it shocked democracy as we know it. i hope that's not what he's responding to or implying we should be looking to. i just don't think we should entertain any suggestions that he makes at this time. he's done enough damage to this country, and so we need to just move on and try to repair the damage that he's done and make better decisions about how we hold people accountable, how we insure that our city is safe, and how we work to make changes to some of the existing laws that may impact our ability to do so. >> another big issue here in san francisco is homelessness. it's one that's been talked about in your city for years, if not decades.
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why is it such an intractable problem? what is it about san francisco that makes it a place where homelessness has become an issue for the people who live here? >> well, i think that the challenge that we have from my perspective, we have really wonderful programs to serve people who struggle, not just with homelessness, but with addiction, with mental health challenges, and what we find in many of the people that we encounter, they're coming from other places all over the country, in search of help, sadly in search of drugs, in search of opportunities, and what we do here in san francisco is we lead with our heart. we're compassionate, but again, we have to also deal with the challenges that exist and address some of the behavior that impacts people's quality of life. the drug dealing and the open air drug using and other things. we have to make sure that we
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don't allow those things to occur. and so there's a number of laws that make it even difficult for us to basically provide someone with housing and then when they turn us down, to confiscate their tents. so there is just -- it's more challenging than what people think. it's definitely gotten more difficult to try to get people off the streets, especially when they refuse services. but let's be clear. these people are not just from san francisco. many of them are coming from other places all over this country in search of help, in search of support, and san francisco has done a really great job, but the rest of this country needs to be held accountable to provide housing and resources and services, and to build more housing so that this problem doesn't continue to persist. >> final question, madam mayor. you're the first black woman mayor of san francisco. congresswoman karen bass is running for mayor of los angeles. if elected, she would be the first black woman mayor of that
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city. any words of advice for her? >> i don't know if i can give any words of advice to anyone about being mayor other than just do what you feel in your heart is the right thing to do. and really be honest to the people about who you are. when i ran for office, there were a lot of things that i supported publicly that everyone else who was running for mayor did not support. and there were people who weren't very happy with the decisions i made to support increased density on the west side of town and also conservatorship, and that is really forcing people who are mentally ill into treatment. and so those are very controversial but necessary in order to change our city, and people, they know i care about those things. they know where i stood and they supported me anyway. i think it's important to show the people who you are, what you represent, and let them make the decision and support the decisions of the people that you want to represent. >> mayor london breed, 45th mayor of the great city of san
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francisco. thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. >> thank you. coming up in our on the run series, a former federal prosecutor and democratic council for donald trump's first impeachment is running to be the next attorney general of new york. i'll talk to daniel goldman next. get help managing your mony for the life -- and years -- ahead. with fidelity income planning, we'll look at what you've saved, what you'll need, and build a straightforward plan to generate income, even when you're not working. a plan that gives you the chance to grow your savings and create cash flow that lasts. along the way, we'll give you ways to be tax efficient. and you can start, stop or adjust your plan at any time without the unnecessary fees. we'll help you go from saving... to living. ♪ play all day ♪ at progressive, we love your pets as much as you do, like this guy in a hat. that's why progressive car insurance covers your pets for up to $1,000 if they're ever in a car accident with you. this mini majorette's gonna march her way
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president trump's persistent and continuing effort to coerce a foreign country to help him cheat to win an election is a clear and present danger to our free and fair elections and to our national security. the president placed his personal interests above the nation's interests in order to help his own re-election efforts. >> daniel goldman was at the center of donald trump's first impeachment as the democratic counsel after a career prosecuting mobsters and financial crimes as an assistant u.s. attorney in manhattan. well, now he's running for new york attorney general. the office, led by letitia james, who's leaving to run for governor, is currently part of a criminal inquiry into the trump
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organization. joining me now, new york attorney general candidate daniel goldman. daniel, welcome back to "the sunday show." >> thanks for having me, jonathan. great to be here. >> okay, so the first question to you is the first question i ask every person who's in this segment. why are you running? >> well, it's a good question. what you just saw in some of those clips was at the time what we thought was unprecedented behavior by a president of the united states to abuse his power for his personal interest. but what has happened in the year and a half since donald trump was impeached on the ukraine matter is that we've descended much, much further into an antidemocratic authoritarian wave that has stretched well beyond donald trump to a large swath of legislatures in this country and people. and i am running because i want to get back on the front lines to bring back our democracy, to fight these fights that we as
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americans need to fight. voting rights, reproductive rights, this white nationalistic, anti-immigrant wave that's going through the country. i think we are at an existential crisis point right now as a nation and i'm someone who's been on the front lines battling for democracy, battling for the rule of law. and new york, as you just pointed out in terms of the trump organization investigation, as well as many other investigations, has brought authority to deal with all of these national issues but also to be a model within the state for how we can create one standard of justice, level the playing field, and hold the wealthy and privileged accountable just like we hold everyone else accountable. and, so, i am excited to get back in the arena and to fight for the people of new york and the people of this country who really want us to get back to
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our democratic ideals. >> well, as you were speaking about the things that are plaguing the country, i was thinking he sounds like a candidate for senate or a candidate for a big national office. but what's it going to do as attorney general? you sort of tied it up, but is there a specific thing that you would really want to do as new york attorney general that would not only benefit the people of new york but would serve as that model that you're talking about? >> sure. there's one example that i point to, which is i think quite important. new york is the financial center of the country and the world. so, just about every single company touches new york, and new york has incredibly broad jurisdiction to investigate any company or entity that comes into new york. one thing that has gained a lot of steam from investors over the
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past several years is their desire to see companies making strides on climate change, on social justice and diversity, on governments and transparency. and, in response, many corporations are making representations about what they are going to do. but there's nobody that's enforcing those representations. and as someone who investigated and prosecuted white collar crime and large financial institutions and corporate fraud, i can tell you that in the crazy demand for quarterly earnings, et cetera, companies often cut corners. and what i would like to do that i think would have a dramatic impact around the country is enforce those representations. and that will help climate change, that will help social justice and equal rights, and that will help consumers who want better products for less money. so that's just one example of the broad authority that a new york attorney general can have that can have an impact on the country. >> right. and real fast, daniel, in the
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ten seconds we have left, your website? >> it's a people-powered campaign. every dollar, every donor really helps. coming up in our next hour, the future of conservatism. plus an all-star panel sounding off to the week's biggest topics, and my by line, calling out one republican senator and his reckless words on covid and aids. stay with us.
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♪♪ in the gop conference, they consider conservatives the fringe. this town up here thinks conservatives are the fringe. we are not the fringe. we are the base of the party, which is about 70% of republican voters. >> welcome back to "the sunday show." i'm jonathan capehart. dr. maya angelou once famously said, and you know this quote, when people show you who they are, believe them the first time. note the silence of their leader kevin mccarthy over his fellow republicans' often extreme and racist rhetoric, the brazenness of two republican-elected officials duking it out on twitter, and the chokehold the former guy has over the grand old party as people applied the
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fifth to protect him. this silence is just the latest in an appalling display of the republican party's inexorable slide to the right. luckily, the earth isn't flat. most of them would've fallen off by now. david brooks may have described it best in his latest article for "the atlantic." over the past two decades there have been various efforts to replace the reagan paradigm. but the trumpian onslaught succeeded where these movements have so far fizzled because trump understood better than they did the coalescence and the potency of populist anger against it. joining me now, stewart stevens, senior adviser at the lincoln project and author of "it was all a lie." and michael steele, former chair
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of the republican national committee. gentlemen, thank you for being here. welcome back to "the sunday show." i know i just read that block from david brooks' really terrific piece in "the atlantic." but i must get you both to respond to what marjorie taylor greene said in that opening sound where she says that she is the base. and i'm hard pressed to say that she is wrong. stewart? >> um, look, among many of the painful things about being a former republican is having to agree that marjorie taylor greene is right. she is right. it's not that donald trump has, if i can say, a stranglehold on the republican party, donald trump is is the republican party. no one forced the republican party to become what it has become. it is what it wants to be. and i think that's a hard thing for a lot of us, it certainly was for me, to come to grips with, which is why i wrote this book. the republican party has become
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a light grievance party, for the most part, that is fueled by a sort of anger at what the country is becoming because the country's changing, which is antithetical to the concept of america as an evolving melting pot, the shining city on a hill. that's not the america they see. >> and to that point, michael, and i want to get your view on mtg in a moment. but it dovetails nicely with something else that david brooks wrote in that piece in "the atlantic." he writes, there is something extremely off-putting about the natconpublic pose. i find many of them parming, warm and friendly. if there is one expression of sympathy or grace uttered from the i'm sorry, uttered from the podium in orlando, i did not hear it. but i did hear callousness,
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invocations of combat and brutality. >> yeah. i think you can dress it up, but it still is what it is. that is the root -- at the root of what animates and motivates, to stuart's point, the grievances. this is about a changing country, the dynamics involved in that. it's about identifying the enemy, the opposition, to own. so we're going to own the libs. you know, when you read david's piece, which is an incredibly good piece, very insightful, and the way he describes they're talking about these natcons talking about liberalism, like aoc, et cetera, they're like the horny devilled creature that you must eradicate. it is a very important shift away from the last 60 or 70
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years of politics, both here in washington and around the country where these polar opposites actually kind of worked in synchronicity. they kind of play off each other. now you're in a position -- and this is true on the left as well. so the interesting thing for me in my takeaway, i can see a lot of the narratives playing out on the left, that's why in the 2016 and the 2020 cycle, especially in the 2020 cycle, you could see this emergence of sort of the left and the right around certain antigovernment, anticorporate america ideals. and this team seems to have tapped into that beyond trump. >> right. and actually, to my mind, what you just said was more at play in 2016 when you had -- >> that's right, yeah. >> bernie sanders' supporters who then switched over to donald trump, and vice versa. they heard something for themselves in both those guys.
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we can't talk about the future of conservatism without talking about kevin mccarthy, who has the title of house minority leader. but he's not really leading. and i want to play another -- more sound from marjorie taylor greene where she talked about kevin mccarthy. listen. >> kevin mccarthy has a problem in our conference. he doesn't have the full support to be speaker. he doesn't have the votes that are there because there's many of us that are very unhappy about the failure to hold republicans accountable while conservatives like me, paul gosar, and many others just constantly take the abuse by the democrats. >> oh, boo-hoo, so much victimhood here. but, stuart, what she says, again, is not untrue. kevin mccarthy has a problem. to my mind his being silent on
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all these things, he might think might help him, republicans get the majority. but if he thinks he can control them, if indeed republicans become the majority, he's got another thing coming, doesn't he? >> you know, for years when mike and i were involved in the party, we always said that it was a mistake to try to negotiate with terrorists. and that's what kevin mccarthy's trying to do. if these republicans take over the house next year, which odds are they are, they're going to put kevin mccarthy's head on a spike. they're not going to elect him speaker. he isn't what they want to be. he is like a chairman who wants to make everybody happy. it's not going to work. they want a warrior, somebody like a jim jordan, to be speaker of the house. it's not going to be some domesticated nice version of republicanism, if they take over the house. it's going to be people like marjorie taylor greene are going to be running the house of representatives of the greatest country in the world. and you got to ask yourself what
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that means. >> chairman steele, as a former chair of the rnc, your job was to help find candidates and help them win. speaker jim jordan, you know a lot of those folks on capitol hill. the likelihood of a speaker jordan? >> is a lot higher than the likelihood of a speaker mccarthy. i think stuart is exactly right. i think the underlying threat for a lot of the folks inside the republican caucus is they've looked at, you know, from boehner to ryan to mccarthy to a feckless leadership. they see an aoc is a much more potential leader on the left, then they need someone to counteract that. you can't play nice in that type of strategy. so, absolutely, kevin mccarthy
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is kind of whistling past his own graveyard when he thinks that -- if he thinks that this caucus is going to turn over the leadership, if the house turns republican next year, that he's automatically going to lock that down. she is sending him the signal now, bro, you got a problem that's not necessarily fixable. >> yeah, the burn it all down caucus is gearing up to keep him from getting the speaker's gavel. stuart and michael, i wish we had more time, but i really appreciate your coming back to "the sunday show." coming up, we've got topics galore from trump to covid and everything in between. my panel and i will react when we come back. firefighter maggie gronewald knows how to handle dry weather... ...and dry, cracked skin. new gold bond advanced healing ointment. restore healthy skin, with no sticky feeling. gold bond. champion your skin. (vo) t-mobile for business helps small business owners prosper during their most important time of year.
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do you think it's possible that you have too much money? ♪♪ walk us through, is there a value to a potential private space travel market? ♪♪ you know, kareem stands a little taller than you, john, but i only mean that literally. >> it's how you know you're watching "the beat." >> "the beat" with ari melber weeknights at 6:00 on msnbc. your honor, this is a very serious, horrible, terrible murder and shooting. and it has affected the entire community. and these two individuals could
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have stopped it, and they had every reason to know that he was dangerous, and they gave him a weapon, and they didn't secure it, and they allowed him free access to it. >> in an exceedingly rare move, prosecutors this week charged the parents of the alleged oxford michigan school shooter, saying their negligence was instrumental in the shooting deaths of four people. yesterday they both pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter. could spreading the responsibility for mass shootings change the conversation about gun control in this country as mass shootings continue to rise? ready to sound off on this and much more, civil rights attorney and msnbc legal analyst maya wiley is back with me. opinion writer for "the washington post" jennifer rubin, she's also the author of "resistance." and congressional reporter for "the washington post" mariana sotomayor. thank you all very much for coming to "the sunday show." what i'm about to show is a tweet from congressman massie.
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this is sort of dovetailing off the conversation about the michigan school shooting. i had it ready for the interview i did with david hogg, the parkland school shooting survivor. what you're about to see is really disturbing. take a look at this tweet from a sitting member of congress. merry christmas, p.s., santa, please bring ammo. jennifer, what is -- what is wrong with these people, especially after a community is grieving over a school shooting? >> we have migrated from, perhaps, 10 or 20 years ago a group of people who were very adamant about second amendment rights but still had some sense of responsibility for gun owners. we have now moved to the fetishing of guns not only this
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picture, but how many ads have we seen from republicans shooting things, shooting targets, shooting pumpkins? how many violent videos have we seen? we saw paul gosar showing the murder of aoc. these are people who now have made guns and violence part of the rhetoric. it's a very fetishistic theme that guns and this toxic masculinity are now the point. it's not merely a side light. these are the central themes that they use. it's not really about the second amendment at all. it's about this bravado, it's about a sense that no one can tell them what to do, no one can restrict them, and that they have no responsibility to anyone else. so i find this prosecutor to move to indict them a welcome change, and perhaps we will get back to some sense of responsibility for gun ownership. >> yeah. and i don't know if you notice this, maya, but in watching the video, when we came into this
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segment as the prosecutor was talking about charging them, the father was laughing, laughing and basically shaking his head no. but, more to the point, you are from new york, you are in new york, the supreme court heard arguments in a case that had major implications for gun laws not just in new york, it was a new york gun concealed carry case, but across the country. given what we're talking about, this oxford high school, michigan, shooting, how concerned should we be that that tweet from that sitting member of congress will go from being lunacy to reality for a lot of us in this country? >> i feel like my refrain for you today, jonathan, is be afraid, be very afraid. i'm afraid. and it's because jen is right
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when she says at the root of this is something that's fascistic. what i mean by this specifically in this context are how we're talking about how we define freedom. we were talking about earlier in the context of a woman's right to make choices about her body. this is also the case of the stand-in for guns is about the freedom, quote, unquote, definition of freedom that says i'm free to do whatever i want that makes me feel good and protects me, and unfortunately it's highly racialized, because the truth about this notion of freedom and gun laws also goes to what we saw in the kyle rittenhouse case in this kind of vigilanteism that's also about who gets to protect themselves and how. because when you talk about the new york case, jonathan, this is really important, the vast majority of gun deaths, unfortunately, happen in communities of color.
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but it's because of illegal guns, not lawfully carried guns. and the real point here and the through line from oxford to, you know, new york city streets, is, one, it definitely should not be easy to get a gun. but, you know what? it is really difficult for us to keep our kids safe in new york city when other states don't have the gun sensible laws that new york have that put real boundaries and restrictions on making sure only people who can carry and should carry guns can and that they do it responsibly. that makes it hard for us to keep our own kids safe outside of mass shootings. but the other point about this is vigilanteism. i don't think we can lose this point because that, like, head nod and smirk and laugh, this is from parents where the mother found out the day before that her 15-year-old son, who they bought a semi-automatic weapon
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for was searching for ammunition online when the teachers found out and when she got contacted about it, laughed, told him, lol, i'm not mad at you, just don't get caught? that really goes fundamentally to the sense of now you don't have the freedom to recklessly endanger other people's lives, and that is why we're seeing a district attorney do something highly unusual. because the truth is if we had real meaningful gun laws we wouldn't necessarily be having this conversation at all. if we had mental health in schools, we wouldn't necessarily be having this conversation at all. and that's the problem with where we are with our whole conversation about freedom. >> uh-huh. this whole conversation, mariana, i just wonder the conversation that we're all having about yet another mass shooting, yet another mass shooting in a school, whether the conversation that's happening in the country has transferred over to the halls of congress and whether congress is having a conversation about
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doing anything, whether it's background checks, anything to help stop the tide of school shootings. is congress talking about this? >> well, you probably guessed the answer, and you're probably right. there hasn't been a conversation on capitol hill since this shooting happened, there was a moment on silence of the house side on the michigan delegation. and that was it. we haven't really heard any rebounding of conversations to try and tackle these issues. of course, the house has passed legislation on a number of different issues this year, including gun reform. but it does just stay in the senate graveyard because we would need at least ten more republicans to sign on to pass any legislation. this brought up the question about abolishing the filibuster, and that's pretty much as much that house democrats can do, just voice as much as possible to try and bring reforms to the
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senate that just aren't going to come. so, as much as they may try and hold press conferences and message and react to all of this, there just isn't going to be movement, especially at the end of this year, which already has a number of legislative priorities. and looking into next year, you talk to a lot of democrats who are in tough seats, they don't want to take any tough votes. and this, unfortunately, because it has become so politicized no matter how you look at this issue, it does become a tough vote for some democrats who are trying to protect their seats going into the midterm election. >> we have to take a break, but talk about tough votes and things that could upend the political calculus in 2022. when we come back, we got to talk about those supreme court hearings about the mississippi law. don't go anywhere. my panel is sticking with us. and we'll continue this conversation right after the break. when you have an irregular heartbeat, it's more.
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back with me now is my panel, maya wiley, jennifer rubin, and marianna sotomayor. so, as we were talking in the last segment about the michigan school shooting, and i tease that we're going to talk about abortion in this block, the mississippi governor was on "state of the union" on cnn. and i have to have you, maya wiley, listen to what he had to say about the supreme court. >> not only is there not a guaranteed right, there's also nothing in the constitution that prohibits individual states from enacting their own laws. and, after all, that's really what the founding fathers intended. i just want to make sure everyone is clear that if roe v. wade is overturned, that doesn't mean that no one in america is going to have access, although that might make people like me
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happy. >> would make him happy, maya. >> yeah? well, i guess he can be real happy since he's not the one who would be forced to risk his life potentially to carry a child to term. because that's fundamentally what this is about. i think there are two things what he said. one is what i said, which is great for a man who will never be in this situation, and saying he would be happy if a fundamental right that women have currently deserve and should have is ended. but, at the same time, he used a framework that is from mississippi, that is a state's rights framework. and states rights we should all hear as the confederacy. mississippi said we don't want the federal government telling us what people's constitutional rights are. that's been a conversation that we're having every single day now in this country, whether it's about, you know, kyle rittenhouse, whether it's about
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guns, whether it's about a woman's right to choose or whether it's about voting rights. and unfortunately what we're seeing is a mainstreaming of something that, frankly, comes out of the civil war and that we are still fighting. and i say we can still win this civil war, but we are still fighting it. >> you know, jennifer, to the that maya was just making, there's some more sound of the governor of mississippi. i don't know if we can pull it up in time. i'll just read you because he's asked by jake tapper, do you acknowledge that this step will result in some women almost seriously getting seriously hurt, some dying? and here's what the governor of mississippi said in response. i certainly would hope that would not be the case, what i would tell you, jake, is that since roe was enacted in 1973, there have been 62 million american babies that have been killed through this process. i think that those babies in their mother's womb don't have
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the ability to stand up for themselves. that's why they have to have people like me and others around this nation that for years have tried to stand up for unborn children. what? >> where to begin. let me first go back. there was something called the fourteenth amendment that followed the framers. so when they talk about what the framers intended, they very nicely right out of the constitution, the post civil war amendments, to maya's point, the fourteenth amendment is where the right to abortion, the right to contraception, the right to educate your child as you see fit, the right to make your own medical decisions, all of these rights stem from. because for 50 years or more, the supreme court has said there is a zone of privacy, there's an area of intimate personal decisions that the government should not be able to run riot over, that should not be able to control, that the price of invading that sphere of privacy
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is too great and it amounts to a tyranny. and what the governor is saying is that because he has a specific version of personhood that is a religious view, that is not shared by everybody else, that they have the right to force women to endure pregnancy and force women to give birth. this is what we're talking about. maybe we should be talking about the thirteenth amendment because what they're talking is overriding the physical, the personal autonomy of women. and, in fact, it's interesting he should bring up the history because the rate of abortion has dropped dramatically over the last 15 or 20 years. and if you really want to prevent abortion, you keep the legal framework that we actually have, in which abortions are becoming more and more infrequent. but what we're really talking about is an effort to right out of the constitution the fourteenth amendment and to write out of the constitution a sense that women are entitled to self-determination to physical
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bodily autonomy. we don't force people off the street to become bone marrow donors simply because it would save an innocent life. we don't force people to undergo all sorts of procedures because it might be beneficial. nor, frankly, do we force people, apparently, to give up their guns or force people, according to these same people, to be vaccinated even though it would save lives. so this notion that they are supporting the right to life is, frankly -- it's about controlling women, it's about writing out of the constitution a fundamental right that exists. they're going to go on to contraception, they're going to go on to gay marriage, they're going to go on to a host of issues. this is a supreme court that is bent on -- and they won't stop with abortion. >> you know, mariana, senator susan collins of maine said she wants to oob oob figure out a way to codify roe versus wade.
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anything you can report on how far she's gotten in going from talking about doing that to actually introducing legislation? >> well, the senate could actually take up a bill that would codify roe v. wade. the house actually sent that over earlier this year. that's another bill that also is in that senate graveyard. the problem is, is as much as you may have someone like susan collins who is pushing for that, how else are you going to get nine other republicans? maybe you get lisa murkowski, to make sure that roe v. wade does become law. and that is the problem here on the senate side of things. the house is, again, holding press conferences, saying as much as they can in the hallways, but that is not going to make the senate move in any way. so, there really isn't a path forward unless she is able to convince unlikely eight other
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republicans. >> before we go to break, i have to ask you about the knock-down, dragout fights on twitter that's happening between congresswoman boebert, marjorie taylor greene. it's like republican-on-republican violence. and it's giggle-worthy watching from afar on twitter. but how is it there in the capitol? because i've been talking about the atmosphere of menace in the capitol. but is this contributing to it? >> absolutely. you talk to reporters, you talk to staff, you even talk to some republican members who have been in congress for much longer than these two freshmen. and there is a significant worry among many people on capitol hill that things could get
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violent, physically violent. you're seeing it online. you're seeing how these members are telling reporters and not holding back by cursing and just really disparaging their fellow members. nancy maeth has more or less said she feels like she is doing that because they are trying to tamp down the rhetoric that comes from this maga squad. but there very much is a fear on capitol hill that this is just the start of even more political toxicity that could break out in fights in some way. >> yeah. and i remember marjorie taylor greene and congresswoman debbie dingell getting into a shouting match on the steps of the capitol. but stay with us, my panel and i will sound off to the other sunday shows when we come back. l freshly washed all day without heavy perfumes? try new downy light in-wash scent beads. it has long-lasting light scent, no heavy perfumes, and no dyes. finally, a light scent that lasts all day.
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we've been talking about climate change as a future problem instead of a present one.
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>> the reality is the humanitarian crisis is going to spill over. >> because, yes, marches and protests can spark change. but so can money. racism is not good for business. and that's been proven time and time again. mccarthy is a liar and a coward. he doesn't have the ability, um, to condemn the kind of bigoted islamaphobia and anti-muslim rhetoric that are being trafficked by a member of -- >> why doesn't he have the ability to do that? >> because this is who they are. and we have to be able to stand up to them, and we have to push them reckon with the fact that their party right now is normalizing anti-muslim bigotry. >> congresswoman ilhan omar with
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a strong response to house minority leader kevin mccarthy's implicit defense of lauren boebert who made an extremely islamaphobic joke, implying omar, who's muslim, could be a terrorist suicide bomber. we're back with our panel. marianne, since you cover congress, that strong language for a member of congress saying mccarthy is a liar, saying that about the leader of the party on the other side of the aisle. >> well, you're hearing more of that. and that's really because democrats want to make sure that mccarthy says more about this. if you think about when this first happened, it was around thanksgiving. democratic leaders came out and said, hey, listen, mccarthy needs to really make sure that this stops happening within the conference. and it's not necessarily up to democratic leaders to be punishing all of these members all the time.
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but it feels like we have to because they aren't getting reprimanded by their own leadership, by the party. if anything, there is this fear that if you continue to censure these members, if you continue to go after them or strip them from their committees for saying things that they say all the time, not only will they be possibly censuring republicans every week, but also these republicans fundraise off of this. they almost want to see and be able to say, well, nancy pelosi who has become a boogeyman for the right, has punished me and they're taking away my rights on the hill, they're going to take away your rights soon. in some ways it does fit into how they're on the campaign trail essentially telling voters they're taking away and i'm going to be your first line of defense. so it's a very sticky place to be. i know omar said that democratic leaders are going to try and take action. but what that is right now we
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actually don't know specifically since leaders last week were going back and forth about what to do because it could establish this precedent. >> right. jen, i want to switch gears here and talk about senator ron johnson and comments that he said about dr. fauci where he said on somebody's program that dr. fauci during the aids crisis, quote/unquote, overhyped aids. well, dr. fauci was on cnn earlier this morning, and he had a response. listen. >> jake, how do you respond to something as preposterous as that? overhyping aids? it's killed over 750,000 americans and 36 million people worldwide. how do you overhype that? overhyping covid, it's already killed 780,000 americans and over 5 million people worldwide. so i don't have any clue of what he's talking about.
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>> i don't think he does either. >> yeah, i don't think he does either. >> you know, maybe if these were abortions he would care because apparently these people have no concern about life once people are actually born. but this is, i think, emblematic of not only him but what's happened with the party, which is this gas-lighting of americans that covid isn't so bad, that the real enemy is people who are trying to stop covid, that mandates are worse than dying from the disease, and you can't be the boss of me, you can't tell me to get vaccinated, you can't tell me to put a mask on. and that's the mentality that we are dealing with. and i think unless and until these people start losing elections because their views are repugnant to the great majority of americans, they're going to keep doing it, this works for them. and the irony of this is, of course, ron johnson never believed any of this stuff, he's a businessman.
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it's only because this party went over the edge that he's become one of the leading lunatics. this is deeply cynical, deeply manipulative. and, frankly, if the people who knew better stopped doing it, we might get someplace with the republican party. >> you know, i was going to play some sound from governor abbott on businesses moving to texas as a result of no vaccine mandates. but concerning what you just said, jen, about how there are these folks in the republican party who don't seem to care about life once it is out of the womb, i read it in the blast block, but i want to play the sound of the governor of mississippi dismissing the danger of overturning roe v. wade. maya, listen. >> do you acknowledge that this step will result in some women and almost certainly getting seriously hurt, some even dying? >> well, i certainly would hope
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that that would not be the case. but what i would tell you, jake, is that since roe was enacted since 1973, there have been 62 million american babies that have been killed through this process. and i think that those babies in their mother's womb don't have the ability to stand up for themselves, and that's why they have to have people like me and others around this nation that for years have tried to stand up for unborn children. >> so, maya, i read that in the last block. but to hear him say those words is really rather chilling. that's some handmade's tale. >> what it shows is he does not care about the lives of women. and i mean the lives of women. because what we know from data, from research, one, is that women are 14 times more likely to be seriously injured or die
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because they don't have an abortion than because they do. abortions are significantly safer to the health of the woman when the woman chooses that. let's be clear. it's about having a choice. but the other part of this, and he's in mississippi where over a third of the population is black. black women in particular are dying of pregnancy-related conditions at four times the rate of women who are white, four times. a lot of that is about access to quality healthcare, reproductive healthcare. there's only one clinic in mississippi. that's about whether or not people have all the kinds of healthcare they need, not just pregnancy-related healthcare as well. it's also about bias in the medical system and whether women who are black or latina or native american are treated for the conditions they have. so, the callousness is actually
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deeply, deeply concerning for anybody who actually does care about human life and purports to care about human life. i just want to make the link to aids because i was in the first aids discrimination law clinic as a law student in the country in the 1980s and had clients who were hiv-positive. and here's the thing. the callousness literally from folks who had that same ideology were, let them die, let them die because we think there's something immoral about them. and i think we have to acknowledge that there is something going on here that is beyond science and beyond clear public policy that balances interests fairly. it's really about who we think are worthy of our support and compassion and who we think are not. >> yeah, that was the attitude, let them die. and, you know, it was painful then, it's painful now to
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realize that that attitude, that mentality is running rampant in this country right now. maya wiley, jennifer rubin, marianna sotomayor, thank you all over very much for coming to "the sunday show." up next, senator ron johnson proves, once again, he is the very worst. and i'll drag him in the by line, next. if you're washing with the bargain brand, even when your clothes look clean, there's extra dirt you can't see. watch this.
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robin. now to my bye line. around the world, since 1988, december 1st has been designated world aids day. a day to raise awareness of the disease caused by hiv. a day to mourn and remember the more than 30 million people worldwide, including more than 700,000 americans who have died from aids and other hiv related illnesses since the first reported case in 1981. so it was galling when on that somber day, republican senator ron johnson attacked dr. anthony fauci's advocacy in the fight against covid by espousing some revisionist history about fauci's work on aids four decades ago. >> fauci did the exact same thing with aids. he overhyped it, he created all kinds of fear, saying it could affect the entire population when it couldn't. and he's doing -- he's using the exact same playbook with covid,
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ignoring therapy, pushing a vaccine. >> remember, his name is ron johnson, not johnson & johnson, so you can't believe a word of what he just said there. in fact, what he said was a damnable lie. aids was so overhyped that president reagan didn't even say aids until 1985. four years after the cdc published the first report of aids in the united states. aids was so overhyped that act up was formed in 1987 with the stark mantra, silence equals death. aids was so overhyped that act upstaged die-ins at the fda, the nih, the cdc, wall street, and the private home of president george h.w. bush. aids wasn't overhyped. it was ignored. donald trump wanted us to believe that coronavirus was overhyped. he tried to get us to ignore it. ignore the science that would save lives.
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and by the eve of his blessed departure from the presidency, 400,000 americans had died from covid. but here's the most galling thing about what senator johnson said. while there's no vaccine to fight hiv, which is still running rampant in the united states, particularly among african-american men in the south, there are vaccines to fight the coronavirus. so if you still haven't done so, get the vaccine. get the booster. protect yourself. protect your loved ones. protect your community. i'm jonathan capehart, and this has been the sunday show. love again. just one pill a day. 24 hours. zero heartburn. because life starts when heartburn stops. take the challenge at prilosecotc dot com. (vo) t-mobile for business helps small business owners prosper during their most important time of year.
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i'm joe fryer in for alex witt with breaking news. senator bob dole has died at the able of 98. he revealed earlier this year he had stage 4 lung cancer. the elizabeth dole foundation tweeting moments ago, it's with heavy hearts we announce senator robert joseph dole died early this morning in his sleep. he had served the united states of america faithfully for 79 years, more information coming soon. >> dole was a patriot serving in world war ii until he was honorably discharged because of a serious injury. he continued that service as a lawmaker, eventually becoming the senate majority leader and then the republican presidential nominee in 1996. in 2018, dole became the eighth senator to receive the congressional gold medal for his
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service to the nation as a soldier, legislator, and statesman. it was one of many medals he received for his service, including the presidential medal of freedom by bill clinton and the presidential citizens medal by president reagan. we have to pause for the nbc network to join our live coverage. please stand by. >> this is an nbc news special report. >> good day. i'm joe fryer at nbc headquarters in new york with a special report. breaking news, former republican senator and presidential candidate bob dole has died at the age of 98. the elizabeth dole foundation announcing a short time ago the former senator died early this morning in his sleep. senior white house correspondent kelly o'donnell now with a look back on his life. >> bob dole always possessed humility and dry humor. >> i want to thank all of those who have said such kind


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