tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC January 14, 2022 10:00pm-11:00pm PST
it speaks to our time. how we deal with things that are too big for our mind to comprehend. always a great to see you. you have a great weekend. >> thank you my friend. appreciate it. >> all right. well, with one speech arizona senator kyrsten sinema, really -- and passing voting rights in the senate. >> these bills help treat the symptoms of the disease. but they do not fully address the disease itself. while i continue to support these bills, i will not support separate actions that worsen the underlying disease of division affecting our country. >> senators kyrsten sinema and joe manchin, another protector of the syllabus they're, seem to believe that when it's time to protect democracy, the cure
is worse in the problem. -- to bypass the 60 vote threshold that fosters more obstruction the bipartisan system. that is more -- making it hard to vote, and installing partisans. putting their threat on the scale. last year, 19 states enacted 34 laws that restrict voiding and altering the voting process. hundreds more were produced. more coming this year. in terms of violence and intimidation from trump supporters, have force dedicated election workers to quit. with the maga -- lining to pick up their places. perhaps -- a sham audit in arizona has copycats around the country. even though no fraud was found, the fake audits work in sowing
doubt in election results. this is so bad that research show that 21% of republicans believe that joe biden's election was legitimate. 21%. now about how trump's allies tried to steal the election, including how republicans in five states sent forged documents to washington to try to get trump elected. -- and the guy who sells foam pillows are -- by a rally that it will be unfiltered by reality. candidates who are backed-ing these election lies. except for the fact that the headliner is the former president of the united states and the front running republican fat candidate for 2024. trump, who remains the most powerful figure in the republican power party is
making his false claims about the 2020 election the centerpiece of his gop reelection. trump has made clear to all who seek his endorsement that if he wants to seek his blessing, they need to make overturning the 2020 election is much of a priority of subverting future elections. according to nbc news, donald trump has endorsed 23 -- 93 republicans. of those, 59 have questioned the 2020 election results. including by voting against the electoral college certification in congress. in addition to questioning the 2020 election results, ten candidates who receive trump's endorsement attended his rally in washington on january six 2021. arizona republican daryl doocy says that he will not get endorsed if he runs first sent -- while rip election denied --
we learned this week that the justice department is now investigation -- with something called seditious conspiracy. the charges, which is about attacking the capitol and subverting -- donald trump thinks he can keep subverting our democracy in plain sight and there won't be consequences. considering all the damage happening to our democracy as we speak, we can all see that the threat is really really real. and for senate credit democrats, at least, losing our democracy seems to be worse than losing as said it roll. kirsten and manchin do not see it that way. what else do we now? kicking off our discussion this night, is a democratic leader who is also running for secretary of state in arizona. thank you for joining us. good evening to you.
i want you to read to our viewers something important you said about kristen sinema's speech on the floor of the senate. senator sinema argues that any writes about any new votes that are passed can be voted back on other years. i would like to her to step outside of the d.c. bubble and look around her state and her country. those roles are systematically being rolled back right here in state legislatures around the country. your point is that she is missing the point. >> yes, absolutely. we have been here for literally four days. in these four days, we have already seen legislation that would limit the ballot box and limit -- it would make it more difficult for individuals to vote. we are seeing restrictions out
the door. and one of the things that we have said to senator sinema, is that currently right now, what you're defending against is already happening here in the state of arizona. >> so what do you think, and this begs the question, what can be done? the court of public opinion is being brought to bear on kyrsten sinema and joe manchin right now. basically what kirsten sinema was saying yesterday was, don't even bother trying. this is what i will do. i will support voting rights, i will not support fiddling with the filibuster. we can't operate with this defeatist mentality. we have to make sure that we are continuously pressuring senator sinema. the reality is democracy is on the line. elections are at stake. we are seeing every single day that the seat of democracy is being pulled by our communities. and that is why i'm running for
secretary of state. my primary opponent cents a -- to a supporter saying that if i was secretary of state i would have supported donald trump. so this lie is going through the state. we can't have lawmakers celebrating on the next few days without passing legislation on what happens. >> particularly in states that are legislating ways in which it is harder for people to vote, it's that a lot of people can register what's happening. if they don't feel like they're right to vote is going to be curtailed, or their ability to vote is not gonna be hindered, it seems abstract to them. but this is a very serious problem. how do you get people, for who this is not gonna be a problem, to understand that this democracy is not gonna be fixed? >> one of the things you have to look at here in arizona is that 84% of arizona's shoes to
vote by mail. just the last election, we had a bill that would literally remove 200,000 individuals, people who signed up for the early voting list, they would have these 200,000 individuals removed from the list if they would not -- this makes it primarily more difficult for people to participate. coincidentally, the more people we have signed a vote by mail, the more we have our state turning blue. so what i would say to people who don't realize that this is coming for them, realize that they're coming from your vote and for your democracy. they think that your voting rights and expanding your rights will be more difficult in the elections. >> how much of senator sinema's position, despite by the fact that you have a disproportionate of elected people in the state of arizona, who are not supporters of the big lie but proponents from it.
they are disinformation specialists. the rally that is going on in your state is wild. there is almost no new line now between republicans, election the hires, conspiracy theorists, and qanon. >> i think that senator sinema is banking that in a couple of years we'll all forget that we had this fight. the reality is, we are not going anywhere. are we not to understand that democracy is on the line? i think that she is anticipating that as we go through us and cycle, and power changes, that she will somehow be off the hook. but we are asking the senators sinema to fight with the same that she had for the infrastructure voting rights. a few years ago when she was in the state legislature, she stood on behalf of the communities are now being
disenfranchised. we want to know why she ran for office instead of advocating for these communities who so need this democracy. >> arizona state representative regional balding, it was so good to see you, thank you for your passion tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> joining us now is democratic congressman peter wells. he is running for united states senator. congressman good to see you. you are -- you around a year on the intelligence committee. you saw this coming a while ago. little lies, became bigger lies, became the big lie. did you guess this is where we are gonna be? that donald trump's ability to lie about stuff has become the major challenge to democracy that we face? donald trump is always lying. now it's the big lie. and the task of the
intelligence committee was when the president of the ukraine had -- i'm astonished at it because of the -- the president as a democrat, have alwaysadhereo the sacred trust that we have. that the voters who -- that their votes are counted. and their votes are accurately tallied. i'm astonished by what trump has done. >> what is also amazing, i just want to show our viewers from the washington post, how republicans became the party of trump's election lie after january 6th. it talks about 163 republicans who have embrace trump's false claims are running first statewide positions that would gi authority over the administration of elections, 69 candidates for governor in 30 states as well as 55 candidates for the u.s. senate, 13
calendar dates for attorney general and 18 candidates for secretary of state in places where the person is the top official. can you tell us, where you are in those early days of donald trump's administration, it felt like it was a contain thing. if there was a moment after january six -- for republicans to say, this is not who we are. and they have not done that. >> they have not. and as you can admit, after the violence of january 6th, and when the shock was higher when the mob was trying to break through the door. and there were capitol police officers and there were five people who died or were salted. when we establish the committee, when we certify the election of joe biden, a lot of colleagues bergh voted against
certification. that is never happened before in our country. republicans and democrats, need to know that the voters in this country need to decide who the president's. not politicians. that is been shattered by donald trump. it is a profound threat to the maintenance of the democratic tradition. the more that the voters decide that -- that is what is at stake. >> if everybody were clear on the degree of which democracy is threatened, i'm asking the same question that i talked to representative bullying about, that they realize that they need to be in this fight. otherwise fair minded people who just don't think that this is a final line fire of which we do things in america. >> that is true.
this is scary. in america, there was violence used. i thought that was the repudiated because a lot of us would recoil from the use of violence as a means of persuasion. but after talking to 147 of my colleagues in effect to side with the folks who charged with violence. and as we now see, as they are now trying to do through the democratic process, and setting up the machinery to overturn the election in the future, we cannot deny what's happening. that's why it's so essential that we pass the voting rights protections. those protections are about making sure that certain folks have their votes counted.
that they're not being any political overthrow of what the voters want. this is really a hall all hands on deck moment for us. and we're talking about the filibuster. there's a real strong desire, that i've always said, to have bipartisan support for any legislation that we pass. but what is existential is that your vote be counted after. the voters need to decide who the leader is. that's what's at stake here. i think that's the point. that's existential. the other stuff is debatable, and it's things that we can come to compromises on, but the existential part, is that everybody else's vote does get counted. we don't give up that right. congressman peter walsh. the trump effect on our politics is bra ugliness to our town and community, the local public servants and -- school board members being shouted, at harassed, menaced,
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make it work. there's some pretty easy ways to do. that for starters, help people register to vote. volunteer at polling places. a ten-year local school board meetings. those just four steps. they lead to greater civic engagement, including, running for office. this is the deal in a democracy of the people, the people get involved, and debate, and change things, hopefully for the better. but, over the last couple years, many americans who take part in this critical work of grassroots democracy are being harassed, and worse. our next guest, erica cohen, is the chair of the dairy school, boarded new hampshire. she and her fellow school board members have been threatened at meetings. here's just one example of
whatever cohen is dealt with, throughout covid mandates in schools. >> i just have to call it for what it is. you guys are cowards. you force the mass on these kids, and i just want to say, if you do force a mandate, genocide jab, and experimental jab on these kids, you astronauts. and i hope you hang. >> please stop! >> you guys are war criminals. >> if you do that to the, kids are war criminals. have a good night. >> the disgusting behavior we've seen from national politicians trickle down to our local governments. we can expect democracy to work if that's what happens, when you attended a school board meeting. erica cohen fears a moment like this are going to discourage democratic participation. she writes in the boston globe, but i fear most of that community participation will become the domain of those who seek conflict or hold an anti mask, anti vax viewpoint. for the conflict averse, going
to a meeting in today's also climate is deeply uncomfortable and running for office is out of the question. and the next school board election in my town is in march. joining us by phone is erica coleman, chair of the dairy school board, new hampshire. erica, thank you for being with us. you make two distinct points, and i want to address both of them. the first one is that this comes in the way of civic duty. this comes in the way of people like you, volunteers, typically, who get in involved in gateway levels of public participation, and that will be discouraged. we'll have you are good people who want to be involved in politics. >> yes, my biggest fear is that we're breaking down what needs to be out the discussion, without our discussion you can't exchange ideas, but because of all the victory are going on, i don't respond to speakers unless i respond in a very -- so things can be cut or posted
or used against me. i find this very sad, because i want to have a real discussion with people, but since people talk at each other, more than they talk to each, other i fear my words will be used against me, instead of communication. i fear that we can't exchange ideas -- and i feel like people are listening. >> are you in a position to hear, or listen to a parent who complains about masks or vaccines, or things like that, who doesn't accuse you of being last season, who doesn't accuse you of enacting a genocide, and saying he wish you would hang? is it the tone of the tenor of the conversation, or is it the substance? >> it's definitely the tenor, and not the substance. i've had had parents who have emailed very frustrated and concerned. we exchange opinions, and we agree to disagree. i even had one parent who is very against masks, who after 20 minute conversation offer toward me out of school board
meeting, the next week, if people mid those comments and i was scared. it's leveling the ten, or are not the substance. i have a strong belief that we need to be able to disagree, and understand that disagreeing doesn't mean not listening. but, i feel that something that doesn't happen these days. >> now, the other thing that you write, about which i think is equally, and maybe more important, is that attending school board meetings, or community board meetings, or city council meetings, is one of the basic things that every citizens can do. they don't, but they can. and they can participate, your feeling is that these are not as well populated as you like them to be. and, when there is this type of vitriol, it turns people. off her -- but they've been gauged. >> yeah, that is my biggest fear. that people will see all this vitriol and say, there is no
way i'm getting involved in that, because i don't want to be yelled at, or i don't want to listen to other people being, or that something i don't want to be around. as it is, participation in school board meetings, in voting, in running for office, in my town, in the last decade, the little average turnout was under 10%. so, it doesn't take many people to swing vote. so, if people don't participate at any level, because they're turned off by the vitriol, you get even less participation, and you get a result that people didn't choose. i think that's very sad for democracy. and for the kids, frankly, the kids deserve better. >> you're right. thanks for sticking it out, and for bringing this to our attention, because everybody can actually fix this in every town, across america, tomorrow. so, let's do that. erica, thanks for being with us. joining us now, democratic congresswoman, -- oversight committee, and
co-chair of the democratic women's committee. representative lawrence, good to see you. thanks for taking time to be with us. i have to say, on one hand, i'm listening to erica, and thinking, i'm glad there are people like her around. on the other side, when she said fewer than ten show up, we now need more than ever for people to be politically engaged. it has to start at things like school boards and city councils. >> i'm so glad to be with you. i started my political career as a school board member. i can tell you how critical the job that you do as a school board member. you are setting the budget, the criteria, the books, the curriculum for the next generation. we find that those people who come out, only when they can come and voice their anger, and engage in name-calling, it is sad, but you have to stay focused on the issue. i think that we have school
boards, city councils, we have those township boards, that come weekly to discuss and take care of the people. that's where i learned my respect for public service. >> you also learned that you do have to get engaged with people who do not share your views, whether they are your constituents, or people who attend these meetings, or your fellow board members. that is also something that we're losing practice. >> you know, listening to the people, i can tell you during the last four years, when donald trump was president, i had to listen to a variety of positions, and people who supported and were frustrated with the democrats because if we weren't doing enough. i'm hearing that now, but i have to listen, because from listen to the, people you actually are educated. what am i, i'm a representative. i'm not trying to fight for my
beliefs. i chose to run as a representative of the people. it is critical that, even those that you sit there and say, oh my goodness, and you sometimes -- i have personally asked someone, can you bring down the volume? talk to me, don't yell at me. i'm not hard of hearing, i want to hear what you have to say. sometimes, you, as a statesman or stay woman, have to create the tone and the dialogue. two things that cannot tolerate, that is lies, untruth, and the insulting language, we are calling somebody other than with them father mother name them. other than that, we can talk about everything. i'm an open book, let's have that dialogue. >> one of the points that erica made, that struck, me was the participation to -- when she said under 10%, possibly, means you can win an election with under 5%, of support. that gives a lot of voice to
extremism. something that you, in your state have been dealing with. today, we saw the charging of members of the oath keepers. you have a lot of history in that, in your state, where people decide, this politics thing is not for me, i'll just deal with in my own way. >> you know, one of the things we are approaching -- one of the deadly sins in our country is that loud voice of silence. where good people sit on the sideline, and allow those who are promoting hate, promoting untruths, to go unchallenged -- or nobody stands up to say, no that's not true. that is the greatest fear, when you talk about school word of elections, there is a low turnout. the reality, the power they have, and the responsibility for your child it should be just as popular as the presidential election.
i can tell you that, we in america, we are -- if someone is doing a good job they, don't even turn out, i'm not voting for you, but they will come to vote against something. they can actually say, i don't know the issues, are but i don't want this person. so, it is important, on every level, to get your message out, and talk to people. we count on these local elections to energize the local base, because everything is local politics. if the turnout is low in the elections, then you are going to have a low turnout in congress, and president and. this whole idea that if you just wait for people, those few people who would vote for office to be discouraged as well. like i said we can all fix this immediately. thank you for being here tonight congresswoman brindle -- coming up, when ronald reagan
declared it was morning in america again. the unemployment rate was 70%. the unemployment rate under biden's like christmas morning in america. we're actually still in the pandemic. we'll talk about that next. in th pandemic pandemic we'l yes, please! neuriva. think bigger. (vo) singing, or speaking.l talt reason, or fun. daring, or thoughtful. sensitive, or strong. progress isn't either or progress is everything.
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reality check. the news media has not done a great job in communicating where the country is actually add. there's a lot of drama koom and not a lot of substance to back it up. the stock market for the economic health of the former president's going strong. 2021 ended with a 21% gain. a lot of americans are not invested in the stock market which another half are. then there are jobs, the unemployment rate is at a pandemic low, almost as low as it was before the pandemic and far lower than much of congress
will tell you is full employment. -- something as written as a result in the past year. let's not go overboard here. not everything is wonderful economically speaking at the moment. families are bracing for the first month without a child tax credit. the monthly payments of up to $300 per child did not go out today for the first time in six months. payments are ending as inflation takes a toll on families wallets. wages are up, but so are prices which have increased 7% over 12 month period. it makes 2021 the first -- there is undoubtedly room for empowerment, but what we see right now is not a crisis, we see a result of policies that are not putting people in his strong position in a once in a generational pandemic. joining us now is austan goolsbee, he's a chair of the
economic council -- he's currently a professor of economics in chicago. good to see you with. us let's talk about this economy. there are a lot of people who are cautioning democrats there is going to be a midterm election and what people will vote on is the economy. except that the economy that we are facing right now is in pretty good state. notwithstanding it's coming out of a pandemic. >> i think your opening there was quite realistic. certainly, in the polls there are people expressing that they are dissatisfied with the economy. if you take a step back there are massager upside on the economy as well as some of the things that are banned. inflation is the worst part. we are going to have to hope and work to get the supply chain under control and get the -- under control to bring down inflation in 2022. at the same time the job market is a strong as it's been in years.
the economic drove has been fairly robust and wages and incomes are up. as you look at 2021, it does at first look like prices were up more than wages were up, but that forgets that there was an average of 3500 dollar tax cut for the average person. if you add the tax cut to the amount that wages went up, overall we are a little bit better in 2021. but i wouldn't be too rosy. there is a reason why people think that the economy is bad and that a lot of that has to do with prices. gas prices and food prices are going up. i think we can get control of that if we can get control of the virus and go back to spend money on services, which is what we used to spend money time on, and take more pressure off of physical goods.
that is really driving up the prices. but that still remains to be seen. we definitely have to stay vigilant. >> let me ask you about something that you wrote in december in an op-ed in the new york times. understanding inflations unequal impact on cross income groups could have far-reaching implications for policy making. for all the people about income inequality we need a matching discussion about inflation in quality inequality. what does that mean in layman's terms. >> i agree with you 100 percent! but you were just reading what i wrote. the inflation rate that you face as an individual, as a family, depends on what you buy. some things, the prices are way up. if you live in a place where you have a long commute, you're gonna care a lot about the price of gas. depending with food to buy, depending where you shop, depending on what your income is, it looks like the inflation
rate differs systematically by income. lower income people face higher inflation rates in this pandemic than higher income people dead. we have to take it into account it is exactly about wage growth income distribution. we should also be measuring about why is -- >> i think this is a remarkably interesting conversation which i will bring graphics to the next time we talk about. we have it in our minds, in the back of our lizard brain, that inflation is going to hide too fast and a bad thing. there are limits to slowing down an economy which includes raising interest rates which it will probably do a few times this year. maybe four times. with the job, is there a danger that if you increase interest rates, that you can squashes groaning economy? >> yes.
of course there's a danger of that. there is a danger that if you do not snuff it out before it catches home, like a sunburn, like the time you see it is too late and you will be in pain, i think that i want to remind everybody to have some sympathy for the feds. it's a difficult situation that they're in because this was not a normal recession. in a way, there was no recession at all, just a huge downturn. but these things that are driving -- down is that when people stop buying tvs, and houses, the simple -- housing went up, ev purchases went up, cars went blooming through the roof. the thing that caused the downturn was people stopped going to the dentist, they stop going to the restaurants. services that are usually
recession proof. so it was not the normal playbook. so we will raise the interest rate and cool off the demand for the booming sectors, how much does the interest rate matter for if you go to the dentist or -- so people pounding the fed to dial back their stimulus, i understand why, but we should also be realistic that when this is happening in the middle of a pandemic, and some major component of it is coming from a supply chain shock, the normal fed menu is not what's we might be -- >> austin, good to see you as always. it was a great stimulating conversation. i hope to continue. thank you. he's -- coming, up 2022 is gonna be a tough midterm election year.
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congress, i want to tell you what you may rarely think about. why are lawmakers allowed to trade stocks and individual companies and allowed to write laws about those companies at the same time? for example, they came under scrutiny for selling millions of stocks before covid happens. they were given private briefings about the severity of the virus, they knew something that they didn't that we didn't, and worked on the knowledge. wouldn't you call that insider trading? people shrug this off as soft
-- but some people are starting to play more attentions to this. including some politicians who think that banning congressman from trading stocks is where good congress and good policy align. they need to stop treating on congressional knowledge, or the stopped act, -- 54 members of congress failed to reports their stocks by the stock act. the government needs to keep their groups from doing things that are unethical, but they just need to report that they did it. they want to introduce a bill that will ban lawmakers and their families from trading stocks while in office. lawmakers, spouses, and their defendants will have to put it in a blind trust. but is that far enough? he's a u.s. marine corps
veteran as well, and also with us walter shaw, he's a former director of the u.s. office of government ethics in the obama administration. welcome to you both gentlemen. this is going to get resistance from democrats and republicans. they'll say why shouldn't they be able to make money off this stuff? no one is saying that they shouldn't be able to make money or invest their money, we're just saying that they can invest in companies because you may have information that the rest of us don't have. >> that is right. congress exempted itself from the conflict of interest statute that applies to the executive branch. they have not been pushing them to advance stocks and stop trading information that they had. there is a gross movement on both sides of the political spectrum. everyone from matt gates to alexandria at cozumel cortez
and representative standard at the house who introduces the resume -- and john ostrava, introduced a bill that i really like, he had a top form of him pushing through a change in congressional stock trading. one thing about this bill is the level of transparency. it requires the trustee applying trust, and notifying the senate a set excuse -- then those committees post them online. that's incredibly important. because what you put in a blind trust is not blind at all until it is sold off. and members of clangor it's get told when trustees get sold off. so there's information about -- and as -- the bill would close that gap will by -- the public will be engaged by
monitoring these things from congress. it in creates a good incentives of selling them off, and not just putting them in a blind trust that has contradicts of interests. >> lucas, in some of the stuff in senator ostroff's bill, it's called the congressional stock trading act. it's important an interest thing. it's gotten oversight by the ethics committee. and lawmakers from its salaries if they break the law. this is where, i don't know if there are many ways in society that we can be nonpartisan about, we can all agree that it's friday night. we can openly degree that these members of congress don't have to sacrifice their money, but still live up to what we would see in sorts of ethics. >> when i go around as state and i meet voters, when i hear over and over again, is a complete lack of trust in our
institutions. congress is always at the very top. this is a very good example of that. we're talking about them getting busted for insider trading every ten years. and then they came up with a fancy way to police themselves. and now we see them pay a 200 dollar fine with that. it's just another shining object with his blind trust. we've seen how blind trust work. there was another -- did we forget that that was where's wealth comes from? when there's a whole bunch of defense talks to you suddenly forget? no. there is still con flicked of interest. as long as there is any temptation we are in trouble. we are not building the trust we need to build. >> walter, to these new investment the occult's like exchange funds mean a basket of stocks. does that mean that you can't
invest in pfizer or boeing but you can invest in a basket. >> yes, the executive branch has diversified mutual funds -- they are exempt from the contracts of interest law. they have to move their money into those kind of investments, but there is no reason that members of congress can't get into stocks and these diversified investment funds. i am deeply unsympathetic to their claims that they cannot make money from -- but if they want to ask the american people to hand them a great deal of power over their lives, then they owe us this. >> lucas, in december, nancy pelosi said that. we are a free market a con to me. which means that they should be able to participate in that. there is some democratic
resistance, but the arguments in favor of actually doing the right thing here seems -- . >> yes when i heard them say that. i heard let them eat cake. for me, for anyone in missouri and either side of the party, that is the unjust this we are facing. when you are in congress, you are there to serve. when we join the marine corps and we had to serve, we were there to serve our communities. the one who took -- when you join congress, you should be there to serve. it is about service not getting rich. frankly, if what it takes to bree build trust and make decisions for people is to not own any stocks at all and have a polish meant equivalent to that for you, me, or months stewart if we conducted insider trading, that is a deal that we should all macon standby. we should also make that change. or we should never have faith again.
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or maybe not in their own emotions. so show up, however you can, well that's tonight's last word, for the foster kids who need it most— at helpfosterchildren.com you can catch meets a night at 8 am on my station. with tua journeys general who will be talking to us about the midterm elections. and i'm very excited about this one, with joe walsh, about whether we should be gauging with the post-trump class of dangerous conspiracy theories who were walk the halls. the last word starts now. i'm alicia menendez. >> day 360 of the biden administration, there's a barrel up to the upper midwest right now. it's going to hit the east coast this weekend.
more than 60 people are under winter alerts. it's -- we're gonna have much more on all of that later in the hour. also tonight, the governor's prosecution of the attack under the u.s. capitol. stewart rhodes, founder of the oath keepers, makes its first court appearance under the charge of can seditious conspiracy. this afternoon, his lawyer spoke to reporters just after the harry says not, guilty he intends to fight these charges. we expect some. we've got several witnesses were going to contact. we've been in touch with family -- we plan on presenting evidence. >> rose entered a not guilty. play tonight, he remains in custody. his attorneys say they plan to fight the governments efforts to keep them in jail
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