history for history lesson. >> the irony is that the supreme court is at the center very sometime hearing cases about this sort of formative racial discrimination. >> all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, rebecca country here in america and we are essentially split between two large factions. you have a two party system. and so, naturally, there was going to be internal dissent. each political party is made up of millions of different people with lots of different views inside it. it's the nation of coalition politics. but ultimately what defines a party, even with all that in turn all dissent and conflict, and disagreement, is what's lines you can across. these are often called litmus test or, in other context, the party line.

one of the common examples is abortion rights. it used to be much more common for people inside each party to have conflicting views on abortion. you would see pro-choice republicans, a lot of them, a lot of antiabortion democrats. but over the past two decades or so, both parties have increasingly sorted on abortion policy. what proportion of the abortion rights in the democratic party. it's don trump in his own feral way figured out very quickly. the republican party was able to tolerate his unconventional thinking on trade, of the bush family, or whether john mccain was a war hero. but they would not compromise on abortion. that was the line. and he knew it. right now, we are watching, day by day, the way that river shapes the stone, the same process play out. the formation of a party line of a litmus test on the question of democracy.

on the question of the legitimacy of democratic rule and the election of joe biden. there is no better example of how that has happened right now than in the state of nevada. you might remember this guy, although i don't blame you don't. his name is dean heller, he spent his entire career in nevada politics, republican politics. and in 2011, he was rewarded for his service with an appointment to a vacant senate seat. that's a great thing to get the, okay? when you get appointments to a vacant seat. and he narrowly won a full term in 2012 as an incumbent. and he proceeded to act in the senate as a purple state republican senator. overall, his tenor was mostly unremarkable and grading on the curve of members that the republican party in congress, i would say he didn't do much to either celebrate or be especially offended by. kind of your ultimate weather vane. in 2016, when donald trump was warning for president, heller said that he was a vehemently opposed to his candidacy.

but after trump won, heller slowly learned to love the trump movement. which is interesting because nevada is a purple swing state. every four years, tight, tied, tied. a state that went for hillary clinton just over two points, and watch trump threatened heller to his face in 2017 over his opposition, so to the >> the other night, i was very surprised when i heard a couple of my friends, my friends, they really were, and are, republicans half baked health care plan. they might not be for very much longer, but that something else. but i think i have to get them back. that's right -- you didn't go out there. this was the one we were worried about their. you weren't there, but you are going to be, you're gonna be. look, he wants to remain a senator, doesn't he? and i think the people of your state, which i know very well, i think they're going to appreciate what you hopefully will do. >> okay. all right. nice, it would be a shame if

something happened to you see. a few days later, heller did voted against the act -- but he supported the skinny repeal. the following year, in 2018, heller fully embrace trump and his movement. we've seen this in a lot of places. but he still lost to jackie rosen later that year. and despite heller's about-face towards trump, the venn president could not help twist the knife, quote, what's up with dean heller, i tried for him but my base, i couldn't, my base did not believe me. they wouldn't go for him. he was really hostile tamara's. really hostile. now, four years later. 2022. hell are, because he's a politician that wants to keep being a politician like so many of them do, is running for governor of nevada. and he wants the once moderate senator who was willing to buck his party has transformed into one of the biggest proponents of trump's attempted coup. it started last september when he refused to acknowledge that joe biden won the election. now he's taking it a step further going as far as calling

biden an illegitimate president. telling a local paper, quote, you have to look at this, dean said that 71% of republicans and nevada believe biden is an illegitimate president, and he is part of that 71%. that's his justification. in other words, i do not have an independent views or leadership or an ethical sense, this is about the witness thing, so this is what i think. again, nevada is not a deep red state by any means. but being an own remarkable weather vane, generic republican, appears unsustainable as long as donald trump controls the party. the big a lie, the lie about the core of american democracy and representative governance about a stolen election is the litmus test, it's the party line, is the question on which no dissent can be brought. with the single biggest question for republican candidates is now are you

functionally pro who? well it's not just in hell's race. we are seeing a similar dynamic unfold in another nevada state. same state, the former attorney general, adam maxwell, is running for the senate seat currently held by democrat maxwell. strong trump ally. served as the co-chair of his 2020 campaign invader. and, like many trumpist acolytes, black sole is of course a strong proponent of trump's big lie. because, again, that's a prerequisite in the republican party. but lying that the election is fraudulent does not really allow him mobilize the polls. so listen to him on the far-right one american news trying to reconcile those two things. a majority of nevada voters know that we did not have a secure election, we did not have a voter i. d., we did not have signature verification.

so this is a fight that we have to keep pressing forward and on because, you know, quite obviously, we can't have safe elections, and people are not gonna turn out or not believe in the system. >> again, by all counts, and the election in nevada and across the country was free and fair, and secure. but lacks ills identifying a problem for republicans, if you keep telling people that the election was stolen from them, they're gonna lose faith in the entire process. it's hard to turn up people to vote when they think the entire election is a sham. and all the big lie apartment -- elections are only stolen when democrats win them. which is why last august, he was setting up the groundwork saying that the election was stolen saying, quote, we're gonna get everybody at the table and come up with a full plan, to do our best to secure this election, get as many observers as we can and file lawsuits early if there are lawsuits we can file to try to tighten up the election.

again, they haven't run it yet. there is no lawsuits to file. more than a year before the election, he's -- he doesn't know what the facts of it are. but he doesn't want that to happen which is why he has been telling supporters that even though the 2020 election was stolen, and the democrats want to steal 22 as well. they still need a vote because their votes, the good votes, count. >> well look, each election is through each particular counties voter register. your votes are going to count. your votes are going to matter. so you have to vote. we're gonna have to deal with las vegas and we're gonna have to work on a plan for that. >> you, the good, rural republican people, the state of nevada, your votes are real votes. they count. the other votes in the other places in the cities are the fake votes.

and make sure you vote because they are going to count. it's the same thing that we saw a little over a year ago when trump said -- flipping a trial in the senate in those two georgia runoff elections. just listen to -- rnc chair. clearly flustered, at her wits'end, trying to plead with disillusion georgia voters and make a devotees not to abandon participatory democracy altogether. >> the machines are switching the votes and we go in there and crazy numbers and they should've won but they still -- >> we have to -- we didn't see that in the audit. so we just have to -- that evidence i have not seen. we will wait and see on that. >> ever gonna spend money on work when it's already decided? >> it's not decided. this is the key. it's not decided. >> no, you idiots! you idiots! we are pumping you full of the fall slide just to string you along because there's a maniac in charge of the party.

but you can't operationalize your behavior based on this obviously stupid ludicrous lie because we need you to vote as if the machines work, which we know they do, but we're gonna keep lying to you. you get it? >> this is going to be a lingering problem for the party of trump. the big lie is the new liknes test, republicans believe that they have to be objectively pro coup, or some risk at -- what they need to rally them to vote republican anyway. politics is full of ideological contradictions but, i'm not sure how sustainable this particular one is. john rawlston is the ceo and founder of the nevada independent on a expert in all things politics, and mark caputo is a reporter for nbc news digital. he just published audio recordings of a republican senate called the big lie. adam axle pushing the big lie. about the 2020 election while simultaneously encouraging

about republicans to vote, and they both join me now. john, let me start with you on this sort of dean heller trajectory which is to me just as perfect microcosm intel up the republican party over the last five years as you can tell. how do you see it? >> i think you're absolutely right, and let me just say up front, chris, that your intro here is finally settled the question of whether my state or mark state is the most embarrassing and has the craziest stuff. nevada winds over florida. i mean, having said that, i have to tell you, dean heller's case which you made very well there, chris, is even worse than you are letting on. he used to be's secretary of state. he knows what he is saying is not true but he is so desperate to become a factor in this primary and this latest fund -- saying that biden is an illegitimate president came right after we release the poll that showed him in single digits, a former u.s. senator in single digits in the race for governor which he decided

he given it too late because he's thought, what the heck, i can patter and say whatever trump wants me to say as well as anyone. so he has contorted himself even worse than he did when he lost his bid for senate reelection, when as you remember, and you alluded to, he took about 74 different positions on repealing the affordable care act. that essentially cost him the race. now he is so desperate to be a factor, that he is running so far to the right and towards trump that he is going to go off the cliff and it's likely not going to get him anywhere because he is being laughed at forums when he talks about being the most trumpian of all the candidates. >> i would just like to play that, mark, i want to talk about this. but i want to play -- this is heller at a primary debate, i think on january six, essentially getting heckled when he's trying to sort of, you know, tout his own maga bona fides.

take a listen. >> as the only proven conservative here in this race, so many nevada, so -- secretary of state, and the legislature, and of course, in congress. that's what makes me qualified for this job. >> and you voted for obama care! >> i had a press conversation president trump today and i want you to know he cares about nevada. you may not believe it, some of you over here. but he cares about the stat of nevada. >> you can see how well that is settling in the room. mark, the axle is a different breed. he's much more from the wing in touch with the maga base in the trump wing, but yes's own problem of course which is squaring the circle of getting people to come vote for you if you say that fundamentally the process is rigged and, you know necessity is the mother of invention. his invention here, it strikes me, is going to spread. we saw ron johnson seeing some something similar -- your votes count, the bad fraud is happening in other places.

make sure that you come and vote, and make sure the election is rigged. >> it's a tough line to tow. but not only is it a problem in among republicans, but if you're running six statewide, in this swing state, a lot of the votes are in the middle. that's a fulcrum on which the votes way. a certain point, this could become toxic to not just the republican base, but to independent voters who could be like, look, they keep making these statements about election fraud that continue are false, in some cases are false, in some cases they have no evidence for so it really comes to initial interest. he's had kind of a wile e. coyote relationship with his election fraud complaints and he had a press conference after the 2020 election with a guy standing next to him who was

saying, someone voted for my dead wife, and this proves that voter fraud exists. and black salt in the state gop made a big deal of out of that. well turns out, the guy who voted who said -- it was that guy. another woman who sits was legally blind and said that someone else had voted for her, she did know who. and this was an example of fraud. and she stood by him at a press conference. one press was -- her story didn't quite lineup, and then she backed off of it. so both cases, he had this acne election fraud bomb and now there's a general election coming up and if you listen to some of the more centrist voices in his party, or some of the less maga of voices in the republican party, they're saying, look, this is going to be a problem in the general election. not because the republican base doesn't turn up. but it's because, look, we don't believe this, we're gonna

stick with our current senator. eah, when you talk to folks in democratic politics the big hope, they know it's gonna be a tough environment in the midterms, john. and that's borne of what is the case for any incumbent party in power that we see this time and time again. it's also a nation that's in midst of a third year of constant disruption. who comes out of the primary as one of the big saving grace is for democrats, they think. whether they kept someone like lack salt in the state urine which is a closely divided state. and that being a more beatable candidate and someone might think. >> yeah, that's absolutely right, chris. these republicans can start telling people like -- and dean heller, the public doesn't care that much about 2020. they care more about covid than the economy. don't worry about it just get through the primaries. but that's certainly what is

happening, i don't think i can ever be wile e. coyote, or mark caputo. i hate him for that but lacks all just says whatever he is sold told to say. he cannot color outside the lines. the democrats think that they are terrible candidates because they're showing themselves to be terrible candidates. they love for heller to win that gubernatorial primary. he's probably not going to because he's a terrible candidate. but here is what they know, chris. they see the polls, they're all close because biden's numbers are so bad. that almost anybody can win. as you use the phrase, they believe they're only saving grace is to get some of these really, crazy people who are saying crazy stuff down till june. the primaries in june. chris. if they nominate some of these people even in an adverse violent midterm low biden numbers they can win it. >> yeah, harry reid pulled a

rabbit out of a hat with that once before quite famously. john rawlston, and mark caputo thank you both. >> next a new coup memo going far beyond seizing voting machines. instead outlining a plan to take data collected by the nsa things like email, text, phone calls and use that to prove their voter fraud conspiracies. details of that unbelievable memo and how it made its way to three sitting senators after this.

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story about the effort keeping trump in power. today's before the january 6th around direction michael lindell was pushing all kinds of truly cracked thought there is about election fraud. organized a meeting at where else, the trump international hotel. dozens of people showed up including not just any one republican senators kevin kramer of noth dakota, cynthia lewis of wyoming. they were there in person. and ron johnson joined remotely. three republican senators. let me just tell you getting three senators in a row, they were days away from voting on biden certification in their meeting with a bunch of election conspiracy theories behind closed doors. we're only finding that would happen at this meeting thanks to new reporting by the washington post. quote, what the senators heard from a handful of presenters where some of the most fantastical claims among those alleging the election had been stolen. including, according to senator

kramer, that the 2020 vote had been influenced by foreign powers and at the proper investigation required gaining access to voting machines around the country. he said the presenters accuse various countries of meddling including china and venezuela. and a lot of theories but not a lot of evidence. after that meeting, senator kramer, senator johnson were sent a truly bonkers memo. that have been circulating on trump allies as far back as december 18. that said, quote in vogt the national security agency in defense department. to sift through raleigh exotic some indication in a time to show that foreign powers had intervened in the 2020 election to help joe biden win. now, it's unclear who wrote the memo or how much of its circulate among anyone else who actually carry out the plan to use the nsa to brew baseless election interference claims. but again, even though the fact that was being floated and sent to republican senators. republican senators were meeting with outlandish election fraud pathologist days before the violent attack on the capitol really boggles the

mind. investigative reporter amara brown was part of the washington post scene that broke that story. and she joins me now. emma, maybe set the scene a little bit about who could put together this meeting? among whom and for what a sensible purpose? >> well, as you said, chris, this was two days before the january six session of congress. at the trump international hotel, right by the white house here in washington. mike lindell the ceo of my pillow had organized it. he had invited his friend to log, and kevin kramer, the center that you mentioned earlier. he wanted the senator to hear this evidence of fraud. and the way that mr. lindell described this to me was that people were just sending him evidence. so called evidence of election fraud over the transom- so he just said, show up at this meeting so we can get this in front of the senator. the way that he described it was that he wanted to get the evidence, the alleged evidence

from the senator to lobby for this ten-day delay that they were considering or trying to push. whereby pence would not certify biden's win on january six, and instead it gave the more time to investigate. so, lindell said that he was surprised because two dozen people showed up and he didn't know any of them weren't. and to them or other u.s., one of them was another u.s. senator and a third u.s. senator just said, on the phone. >> so, this is just an open mic situation, or you come and give your bit on why you think that the election was stolen to actually sitting u.s. senators? >> well, what we understand about the meeting is that there was talk of foreign interference and allegations of china and venezuela meddling in the 2020 presidential election. and let's just be clear, there's no evidence that any -- into the election of 2020 to

change with that let alone a foreign power. but that was the case being made. senator kramer, told us and we are part of the story that he did not find this to be impressive argument or one that suite him. but it was one that making its way around washington at that time. the next day on january 5th he announced similar briefings with members of the house. we know that a similar case was made to president trump in the oval office days before this. so, this was an allegation -- moving around washington. >> the point i was gonna make is that you can watch that kind of development of an idea. here through these various bits of reporting and memos. the seizure of voting machines. the voting mission for the things to get your hands on, they take custody we know there's actually a draft executive order that was drafted. we know there's another memo that was focused on.

that so clearly. do we know who wrote the memo? do we know anything about its origins? >> so, the memo was as you said in an interruption there was a little bit different in that it didn't talk about seizing voting machines. they talked about using an essay on processed raw signal data. so email, -- and at the nsa may not collect from u.s. citizens without a court order. to prove that this alleged foreign interference. that kind of set it apart from some of these other ideas of have been floating around washington at this time that we've heard about. as far as where it came from, what we know is that after this meeting someone former republican congressional republican from virginia -- senator kevin kramer the senator and it was something it was also sent by whom to senator johnson. and it called for trump to appoint, to do this and to do with the help of three people who would be a core advisory of

-- del ross o, former nst employee name rich higgins, and a third person an active civilian lawyer for the army frank cologne he denied to us that he knew anything about this or have anything to do with. it >> amin brown, is a great reporting and pretty draw dropping stuff. thank you. >> thanks for having, me i appreciate. it >> republicans have been lining up expressing their turn with absolute wraps you through a promise to appoint nominate a black woman to the supreme court. >> the irony is that the supreme court is at the very same time hearing cases about this sort of affirmative -- discrimination. while adding someone who is the beneficiary of this sort of quota. >> now hold on their senator -- of mississippi, before you go

around dismissing this candidate, there's something that you should tell the class about how you got your job. that story is just ahead. st ahead

i think it's safe to say it's been a rough few years with the pandemic and the insurrection and all that. and i find that it can be pretty hard to think about the future in a way that doesn't feel utterly dystopian. but i've been coming increasingly convinced we cannot imagine or conceive of what a better future might look like, we're gonna be lost in the president. and that's why we're doing a special series on my podcast, why is this happening, the future of. when i talk about visions of what a better future could be. one of those conversations is all about the future innovation with kathy wood, the founder and ceo of arc invest. now what is famous and infamous investors extremely -- on technology in the future in ways that i frankly not usually myself. she's got a lot of ideas about incredible things that might happen in the future, including what you think will be one of

the biggest developments that come out of the -- economy when we make the necessary change for fossil fuels to renewable energy. >> that's gotta happen. we're toast if it doesn't. and if it does it seems like a very different economy that it falls out of that. >> well, yes, it does in fact you hit upon the largest impact will be from autonomous tax platforms. as we move to electric robots actually. taking us around. >> electric robots taking us, around maybe? the series starts and rotten kathy was just many one of many guests, seth meyer is the future of entertainment and some more folks like i'm wait to tell you all about. so, now subscribe to why is this happening wherever you get your podcasts. make sure you're the first to hear a brand-new series future of, starting next month. of, starting next month.

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backlash from the right about joe biden's promise to nominate a black woman to spring court to fill the seat of retiring justice stephen breyer. one of the white men leading that charge is a senator from mississippi, roger wicker, who has himself some pretty strong feelings about affirmative action. >> the irony is that the supreme court is at the very same time hearing cases about rachel this sort of affirmative -- discrimination. while adding someone who is the beneficiary of this sort of quota. the majority of the court maybe saying it's unconstitutional, we'll see how that irony works out. >> oh, the irony. so much irony abounding here. but the real irony is that roger records so critical of affirmative action consider the history of his own state. the world in which he was molded. and the way he himself became a united states senator. do you remember when roger

wicker first earned his way into the united states senate? >> now mississippi governor, haley represented or roger record to fill the senate seat left over by trench -- [inaudible] >> all yes the good old fashion way he was gifted. would you look at that. robert wicker didn't so much has earned that seat as the senator of mississippi, he was given it almost like an inheritance. along with his place in history as literally the 23rd white man in a row to sit in that seat. >> during that process, i can imagine the governor -- of the proud list of mississippi senators who have gone before me. and walk the halls where i will now work for our state and nation. names like, john dennis, billy eastland, rich arson, and al q. c. lamar. clearly, i have a lot to live up to. >> i guess, a proud lineage there.

under wicker a congressman rat 's political rare as an aide to -- and then he got to take over his old boss in the senate seat with his old boss retired. one year into his term. quicker than to go on to win a special election in the following year, he's held on to the seat for two more cycles. but, being an incumbent to the senate seat was gifted to you is a pretty good head start. it's also useful to look at how the senator began his adult life in college. he has a bachelors degree from the legendary university of mississippi, he graduated from you miss law school where his dad also attended. his dad in fact his daddy, thomas frederik wicker, it is a -- hall of fame. he served as a circuit judge in mississippi for more than 20 years. real by the boot strap stop. arrived on caps in 1969 the school is just a couple of years removed from one of the bloodiest integration battles the country has ever seen. >> [noise] james a meredith is

formally enrolled in the university of mississippi. ending one chapter in the federal government's efforts to desegregate the university. the town of oxford is -- an armed camp up following riots that accompany the registration of the first negro universities honor and eight year history. much of this still in the court was destroyed -- but our camera man martin oiler was attacked. but he did salvage pictures of governor ross -- the governor thought the court order before modifying his stance. saying mississippi was overpowered by the federal government. [noise] president can be appealed to the students into the people of the state to apply peacefully for the laundering the crisis to an end. even as he talked ride for breaking out -- >> americans are free to disagree with the law. but not to disobey. >> that was 1962, that seven years before roger worker got to the university of mississippi. and when you got there was an

integrated school. but only because the federal government forced them to be. that was the environment at which roger wrecker began's education. and at that time this man, was one of the senators from mississippi. a job that robert record would one day hold. democrat james eastland, who is known as the voice of the white south was an avid ferocious segregationist. oppose civil rights levitz legislation. in the wake of supreme portland rack be education -- was unconstitutional similarities and declared that the south will not abide or a bay. three years later in 1957 eastman turned mike wallace, the black people actually want to be segregated. >> i'm suggesting, that the vast majority of negroes want their own schools. their own hospitals. their own charges. their own restaurants. >> their own? buses >> well that would be

impractical to operate two sets of buses. i, that senator easter. a practical guy. guy you can't say he was impractical. so chicago surprised that man the one who roger rucker gave a shadow to describing the proud lineage that he was inheriting and being gifted. but democratic senator did did everything he could to stop the confirmation of constants baker motley, the first black woman appointed to the federal judiciary. after her nomination by democratic president lyndon johnson, the democratic chairman of the judiciary committee, none other than james eastland. delayed the committee for seven months they tried to smear her as a communist. the new york times reported quote, senator james eastland of mississippi red testimony to a senate internal security subcommittee hearing that miss molly had been active in the young communist league in 1942

and 1943. and senator eastland had good reason to be upset with constants baker motley considering her widely successful work of desegregation. we're not only she was a law clerk for thurgood marshall at the naacp legal defense fund and wrote the original complaint in the brown v. board education case. this is her confidence baker motley. headed to court with her james meredith to gain his admission to oh miss in 1962. she led the legal campaign that resulted in the desegregation of the university of mississippi. so you can understand, why a guy like senator james eastland would didn't like her. and let me tell you, senator eastman was note there are good marshall fan either. eastland was a man of many senators have voted against confirming the first black man to serve on the supreme court. the nomination and domination a

thorough good martial wasn't achievement [noise] in 1967. there were 95 supreme court justice before thorough good martial, take a look at it was pretty easy to see with they have in common. they're all men and they're all white. every single justice, 95 of them in a row was a white man. until 1967 when thurgood marshall, for more than 100 qualifications a need to serve on the supreme court where that you had to be a man, and you had to be white. that was the quota. those 95 man would've been a beneficiary of the rule at the time in roger wicker's words. >> the irony is the supreme court is at the very same time hearing cases about this sort of affirmative racial

discrimination and while adding someone who was a beneficiary of this sort of quota. the good news is roger wicker, son of ole miss hall of saint thomas frederik wicker, made united states senator of trent law halle barber has risen into position where you will have the chance to change the course of. history all the has to do is cast a vote for the next supreme court justice based on her qualifications. her qualifications it's time for the ultimate sleep number event on the sleep number 360 smart bed. what if i sleep hot? ...or cold? no problem, the sleep number 360 smart bed is temperature balancing so you both sleep just right. and it senses your movements and automatically adjusts to keep you both effortlessly comfortable. so, you can really promise better sleep? yes! you'll know exactly how well you slept, night after night. we take care of the science. all you have to do is sleep. and now, during the ultimate sleep number event, save 50%

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marinated for so long and casual racism of affirmative action, that it seems normal now to reduce human beings to their race. >> the fact that he's willing to make the promise of the outset that it must be a black woman, i just gotta say that's offensive. >> right. >> black women are wet, 6% of the u.s. population? he is saying that 94% of americans, i don't give a damn about you, you are in a eligible. >> for lindsey graham to stand there or on television, and here joe biden's pick for black justice on the supreme court,

which is the most racist thing. i thought we are done with racism in this country. >> it's always amazing to watch these media cortese and legacy cases yelping about affirmative action, no matter how qualified, respected and experienced -- that a black woman could ever belong there, alongside such high caliber white men. >> who drank beer, my friends and i, boys and girls, yes, we drank beer, i liked beer, still like beer. we drank beer. >> back in 2018, i was four years later, it continues to be remarkable. how will this impact the eventual nomination, and how much will republicans fight bidens pick? andrew robinson is a professor at the quinnipiac rule of law, she is a former connecticut in superior court garage. she wrote a piece called history shows us time for black women on the supreme court. while the right system -- to the southern district of new

york, and both join me now. professor robinson, i wonder if you could make the case on the merits you do in your op-ed on why this is an important time to do precisely as joe biden is doing. >> this is a demonstration of black women excellence, in the legal profession, and especially in the judiciary. it is 150 years in the making, the first black woman lawyer was 150 years ago, and it is taken this long for black women to have the opportunity to sit on the highest court in the nation. so this is time to demonstrate the excellence that we have. >> one of the things that i think people don't get, maya, is that this -- the supreme court has always had these kinds of considerations, these demographic considerations, having to jewish justice was a very big deal, and very groundbreaking, having a catholic justice when it first happened was a big deal, and there is a catholic seat and a jewish seat. they were understood to be,

that in precisely the same way with precisely the same where using considerations about representation and what it meant. this is much much older, then anything that has happened in biden's announcement on the campaign. >> and last i heard, the sitting black supreme court justice who was appointed by a republican, was appointed to thorough good marshals seat. and i don't recall any republican sane clarence thomas was not qualified because he was black, despite the fact that there is a clear decision that they had to put a black person in that spot. i also want to point out something else to your point, chris, which is this no option of qualification, i wrote a week ago that we had to expect the attack on the qualifications of these highly, not just qualified, highly qualified candidates we are hearing under consideration.

but i just want to point out is that if you look, we've had 17 chief justices of the supreme court. they have all been white men. and nine of them never set a day on the bench. have nine of them. if you look at how many black men who have been supreme court clerks, which is one of the ways we're told people are qualified. well between 2005 and 2017, 85% of them were white men. so, the reality is, we've had qualified candidates who have been blocked from entry into the old boys club, because it's all about network, it's not about know-how. >> that's such a great point, and i laugh at the ted cruz clip, professor, robinson that we played coming in. it's an insult, there's 330 million americans, as if every supreme court search starts with all 330 million americans

going through. when in fact it's quite the opposite, it is the ultimate in st. louis credential lives, in fact i even argue excessively so. that over the years the considerations of who could be a supreme court justice of actually shrunk, even if there is been expansions along diversity lines in terms of race and gender the people under consideration are in this tiny little echelon of folks who have achieved this experience in credentials. >> yes, absolutely i want to say at the outset, thank you for inviting me to have this conversation with you, because it is definitely a passion of mine, and you are absolutely right, 93% of the justices who have sat on the supreme court have been white men. they are coming from an increasingly small pool, it's kind of interesting and ironic to me, that when the only justices were white men, we

pulled for many different sectors. we pulled from executive branch, legislative branch, we took people who heads state court service. but as soon as we started getting a little bit more diverse, we started shrinking the pool within which we can select justices and that's why this appointment is so exciting, because no matter who it is, they are going to bring some diverse backgrounds and some much needed life experience. >> that's a profound point, you are saying that this essential increasing credential-ism is kind of related to the demographic threat, it's a sort of bastion that is used to contradict being more diverse, as more candidates are considered, someone made this quid and it's not mine that nothing gives lie to us -- the two of the nine justices went to high school together. come on, what are we doing here? when we're talking about who is getting that into this very, very elite body. >> well --

it's network. and actually, nothing is more exclusive to all the people who are white in this country, who didn't go to an ivy league school, who didn't go to the top high school, but who might be totally qualified for whatever petition they seek. the one thing that has always been true about the challenges of this civil rights movement to these just ridiculous bars to entry for people who are black, or people who are latino, is that it has opened up more opportunity for people who are white. that gets lost every time we hear the attack on quote on quote affirmative action it is always required qualification, what it is done is attacked the mechanisms that actually exclude large amounts of people, including people who are white because they didn't go to those elite schools, or they didn't know they got down the hall who's making all the decisions. >> interesting point.

angela robinson and maya wylie, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> that is all in on this thursday night, the rachel maddow show starts right now, good evening rachel. show starts right now good it's a good thing that i looked to somebody for help on that, alas is just me. >> you're good did? >> yeah, i'm fine. i know i can always count on you, i really appreciate it. all right, let's see how this goes, -- for being with me this hour. happy to have you back in my home, in case even some of our earlier shows, this week, the reason i'm in my home studio is because i had a covid exposure. i'm fine, i'm negative, however i cannot wear a mask well into the show because i do the talking talk-y, because i can't

wear a mask, that means they can't go into a studio, because that would be putting my coworkers at risk, because i do have a covid exposure. that's time at home, that's why the visuals a little bit weird, that's why i'm trying to fix stuff will also be live on tv. i apologize, i'm not great at this, apologize. i'm not great at this. but i'm really happy you're here because we have a ton to get to on tonight's show including what we've been working on for a long time. one of the stories we're going to be covering tonight concerns, sort of concerns these gentlemen. what do these four people all have in common? you might recognize some of them. you might not. but what they do have in common is something pretty specific. all four of these men were all found guilty of committing voter fraud in the 2020 election. the gentleman in the upper left is a republican from nevada, his wife died several years ago, he nevertheless filled out her ballot and cast it in the presidential eleio