♪♪ good afternoon, everybody, i'm yasmin vossoughian. a very busy saturday afternoon. it's surprising apology from joe rogan today after racially charged comments from the podcaster surfaced online. former vice president mike pence sends shock waves through the republican party with a direct attack on his former boss. this is all happening as the republican party censures liz cheney and adam kinzinger in a statement that called the january 6th insurrection legitimate political discourse, the latest reaction to both of those major political stories.

also, plus, the president touting blockbuster new jobs numbers, saying america is roaring back. we'll go inside those numbers. and we'll have the latest fallout from claims of racism against the nfl leveled by former dolphins coach brian flores. that is ahead as well. we begin, though, with, i have to say, a pretty shocking move from controversial podcaster joe rogan. it's an apology. but it's not for the covid content that has prominent musicians leaving spotify. it involves the issue of race. take a listen. >> i'm making this video to talk about the most regretful and shameful thing that i have ever had to talk about publicly. >> i want to bring in richard lui for more details on this. talk us through this because while this apology should have, in fact, come out, it deserved an apology and who knows what's going to happen from here, it's

shocking, to say the least, because someone like joe rogan is not necessarily someone who normally apologizes. >> that's a different note that you played just there from him, from joe rogan, and thank you, yasmin. joe rogan is in damage mode today trying to defend himself from a compilation clip that's been circulated online showing him using the n-word and making other racially charged comments during his podcast over the years. while the clips have been circulated by others, the issue become turbo charged after a post from singer india arie who announced she was removing her music from spotify, saying it was not just because of the covid misinformation that had led neil young and others to act. it was because of his language about race. the compilation of rogan over the years shows him repeatedly using the offensive slur in full here so today the normally combative podcast host was soft spoken, you played a little bit earlier. he was also apologetic.

he pointed out the clips are taken from 12 years of conversations of his show, and he also argued they had been taken out of context, trying to explain the kind of topics he was addressing when he used the n-word. >> part of the clip we were talking about redd foxx, how he said that on television in the 1970s and how times have changed or how richard pryor used it as one of the titles of his albums or i was quoting a lenny bruce bit or a paul mooney bit, talking about how quentin tarantino used it repeatedly in "pulp fiction." >> but the use of the n-word was not the only racially charged content that rogan was forced to address. the podcast host also tried to explain a comment that he made comparing a black neighborhood to "planet of the apes," his words there. he said it stemmed from a story he was telling about being dropped off to see the movie with a friend in a philadelphia

neighborhood. >> we didn't know where we were going. we just got dropped off by a cab, and we got dropped off in this all-black neighborhood and i was trying to make the story entertaining and i said, we got out, and it was like we were in africa. it was like we were in "planet of the apes." i did not, nor would i ever say that black people are apes, but it sure [ bleep ] sounded like that, and i immediately afterwards said, that's a racist thing to say. >> rogan then went on to say he had removed the podcast episode with that very comment, but that also raised some issues here. this week, listeners noticed that as many as 70 episodes of the joe rogan experience has been quietly removed by spotify as the controversy over rogan's covid content has been rising in the headlines. the company has not commented on that or about the racially charged content that has come to light, especially today on this

saturday. now, in the past, when confronted with issues about rogan, spotify responded by posting its content policies and saying, rogan must abide by them. we should also note that even as rogan said today that he has learned from his mistakes, in that video that he posted, this was from his podcast just last month as he discussed who should be able to call themselves black. take a listen. >> unless you're talking to someone who is, like, 100% african, from the darkest place where they're not wearing any clothes all day and they've developed all that melanin to protect themselves from the sun, you know, even the term black is weird. >> well, despite all this, still no sign that rogan is in danger of losing his podcast, which pulls in 11 million listeners. yasmin, again, the controversy over him using the n-word in full several times posted in a compilation. back to you. >> i know spotify has said

they're not involved in any kind of editorial direction for rogan's podcast, as we both know, this is not necessarily editorial. this is something much bigger, and much different. on top of that, you mentioned the 70 podcasts or so that have been taken down by spotify. he's got over 1,000 podcasts on spotify. that's just a blip. >> more ways to come. >> exactly. so we're going to watch and see as this thing develops and if spotify has anything else to say with regards to it. for now, though, richard lui, thank you as always. i want to go to mike pence's strongest rebuke today of his former boss. the former vice president calling donald trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election un-american and questioning his understanding of the government. >> president trump is wrong. i had no right to overturn the election. the presidency belongs to the american people and the american people alone. and frankly, there is no idea

more un-american than the notion that any one person could choose the american president. >> all right, josh lederman is joining us from wilmington, delaware, where the current president is spending the day. walk us through this. this was quite a day. quite a moment. you got pence saying this on the same day the rnc is censuring liz cheney and adam kinzinger. talk us through it. >> yeah, talk about a split-screen moment for the gop, yasmin. friendly fear erupting for republicans on multiple fronts, first with these new stunning comments from mike pence, who's really avoided distancing himself in the past from former president trump. his boss for four years. in fact, about the farthest he'd gone before this was to say, well, you know, president trump and i may never see eye to eye on january 6th, but now, the former vice president really rebuking his former boss and a former pence aide tells us that one of the reasons he felt he needed to do this now was because president trump, former president trump has been

publicly blaming pence for not intervening in the 2020 election, trying to overturn those results, and so pence felt like he needed to get on the record and say, that is not something i am able to do. trump now responding in a statement, saying that pence, in fact, does and should have had the authority and gone ahead to intervene in the election, saying, i was right and everyone knows it. and while this was playing out between trump and pence, we had this remarkable vote at the rnc meeting in salt lake city to condemn and to rebuke these two lawmakers who now cannot get any official gop support. the rnc is now free to support primary challengers, for example, to liz cheney, who is running for re-election, and this resolution, yasmin, which was adopted on a voice vote with no debate actually described what happened on january 6th as legitimate political discourse.

so, you can just see from these multiple events playing out how divided the republican party is right now about president trump's role, not only in the past but in the future as well. >> i got to say, josh, you and i were both outside the capitol on january 6th and seeing this statement come from the rnc, honestly, you take it personally as a reporter, as someone who was out there covering that event. i have seen legitimate political discourse. that, in fact, was not it, and now you have a lisa murkowski speaking out about it on twitter, kind of going after her own party, talk to us about that. >> reporter: yeah, i know exactly what you mean, yasmin, because you can feel one way or another about president trump, about the election, but to see what you and i saw with our own eyes outside of the capitol and to somehow describe that as okay, it's just really kind of beyond belief. but lisa murkowski, the republican senator from alaska,

she is pushing back on this move from the rnc with a series of tweets in the last few minutes, saying that we must not legitimize january 6th and going on in another tweet to say -- to suggest that it was legitimate political discourse is just wrong. of course, lisa murkowski was one of just seven republicans who voted to impeach former president trump in those weeks after the january 6th attack on the capitol. she is running for re-election. she is facing some headwinds from republicans who want to punish her for the fact that she did vote to impeach president trump. >> josh lederman, as always, great to see you. good coverage on that. we appreciate it. i want to bring in now nbc senior national politics reporter jonathan allen to speak more about all that's happening within the republican party along with vice president mike pence and what he had to say yesterday. so, i want to dive into a few things first, jonathan. and of course, i brought you on here to talk about the vice president but just this news, obviously, of alaskan senator

lisa murkowski tweeting out suddenly kind of out of the blue on a saturday afternoon against the rnc, i found, you know, pretty interesting and wondering if anybody else is going to follow suit. let me read the entire tweet, which is, what happened on january 6th was an effort to overturn a lawful election resulting in violence and destruction of the capitol. we must not legitimize those actions which resulted in the loss of life, and we must learn from that horrible event so history does not repeat itself. and as i said, i'll repeat it to you, jonathan allen, as i did to josh lederman. it's astounding to think they would actually put on paper, legitimate political discourse to describe the events of january 6th. what is the strategy here? because that is incredibly damaging to the future of this democracy. >> well, number one, yasmin, i think the strategy is for those who would oppose what happened on january 6th to play down its importance, to suggest that it wasn't a violent attack on the u.s. capitol designed to stop

the certification of electors, designed to overthrow the country so that's one interpretation. the other interpretation is that the republican national committee has taken the odd and unusual position that it is okay to attack the united states capitol and in fact that is legitimate political discourse and this country is no longer one of rules and law but one of might and violence. because in order to look at that as legitimate political discourse, you would have to say, that a violent attack on the government is legitimate political discourse, and that's what the rnc voted to do. >> and it gives them the freedom to do it again and again and again. so you wonder, how many more times in our future is this going to happen? how many more people need to die at the hands of, as the rnc puts it, the legitimate political discourse? so, with that, let's move on to the vice president and kind of the statement that he made yesterday, right, calling out his former boss, the former president of the united states,

donald trump, and saying that he was wrong. i know you have some reporting on the why now of it all. talk to me. >> well, look, i think vice president pence has been upset about what former vice president pence is upset about what former president trump has said in terms of recently of the idea that pence should have been able to overturn the election in his role as vice president. when you talk to folks around pence, when you talk to folks around trump, it's pretty clear that the animosity here is -- has been growing for a while, and i think pence sees, in his mind, at least, an opportunity. i'm not sure that punditry or the republican voters agree with mike pence, that he's the next great choice for the republican party, but he's certainly going to take a whack at basically having trumpism up until about january 6th at noon. you know, as his platform. >> so, in a way, this was personal to the former vice president?

>> i think it's very personal to the former vice president. president trump incited people to go down to the capitol. they chanted "hang mike pence." what kind of robot wouldn't be sensitive to that? i mean, he was in the capitol. the president didn't come bail him out. obviously, there's a personal element to this, but you know, mike pence has been a politician for a long time and he sees opportunity and he's ambitious, and this is the, you know, this is the lane he's going to try to run in. whether that is successful or not remains to be seen. >> yeah. i'm sorry, though. i just don't seem to be able to applaud it because it's about darn time, right? and why didn't it happen any sooner? i think it's probably safe to assume now at this point that the former vice president will not be on the same ticket as the former president if, in fact, he decides to run again. >> that's a safe assumption. >> at this point. jonathan allen, thank you as always. great to see you, my friend. coming up at 4:00 p.m., by the way, olivia troye joins me live with her personal

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let's talk new developments happening overseas right now. ukraine's minister of defense confirming just a short time ago that 86 tons of u.s. ammunition have, in fact, arrived in kyiv. it comes amid new reports that portions of russia's military have now reached full combat strength and appear to be in the final stages of readiness for military action should the kremlin order it. so that is according to an assessment by ukraine's highest military command. right now, russia has more than 130,000 troops deployed along ukraine's border, while president biden has sent more than 3,000 american troops to nato allies in eastern europe with another 8,500 on standby. i want to go now to nbc's matt bradley on the ground for us in ukraine near the russian border. matt, good to see you. talk to us about the posturing of what we're seeing. we know, for instance, over 100,000 at this point russian troops along the ukraine border awaiting orders, it seems, from

vladimir putin. there have been temporary hospitals set up also by russian forces as well, which would lead one to believe there are -- they are expecting some type of hand-on-hand military conflict. where are we on this? >> reporter: yeah, i mean, it's a really interesting question because this is a country that should be girding for war and i have been asked this question time and time again and we have been asking the ukrainian government, why is the ukrainian government -- why are the ukrainian people so calm when they have what looks to the rest of us like a noose around their neck? and so we went out to this town. this is right on the border, not between ukraine and russia but between ukraine and russian -- sort of russian separatist held territory. here's our report. this border crossing on europe's eastern fringe stands as a monument to displacement and despair.

what's life like on the other side? >> translator: it's like we are indigenous people being oppressed by colonizers. we are not allowed to go either here or there. >> reporter: on the other side, the self-declared people's republic, a russian-led separatist region, has been at war with ukraine since 2014. for the thousands of people who have to cross back and forth on this bridge into russian-controlled territory every day, war with russia isn't imminent. it's their past, present, and future. what is the significance of this crossing? >> translator: this checkpoint is very important for the people living on both sides because it's the only one that's still functioning. most people cross the checkpoint to get their pension, get vaccinated, visit relatives or buy groceries. >> reporter: here, the west pledges of support have always running hollow. is there anything else that you want to tell the world? >> translator: tell biden,

please don't send troops to shoot around here. we'll deal with our own problems. >> reporter: and yasmin, right now, i'm in kharkiv, the second city of ukraine, and this is russian-speaking territory. i spoke with an elderly woman today. she told me, i was born in russia, i speak russian, i think in russian, but i would die for ukraine. that's the feeling out here, yasmin. >> it's so fascinating, matt, considering, of course, that joint statement that we got from president xi along with president putin yesterday, essentially saying, and obviously i'm going to paraphrase it here, which is, basically, stay out of our business, right? stay out of our territories. we'll deal with our own. and you juxtapose that to what we just heard from that woman there. it shows how complex the situation is right now. matt bradley, thank you so much. we appreciate it. coming up, everybody, republicans censured by their own party for investigating what the republican party now calls legitimate political discourse.

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it's easy to love a subaru. welcome back. politicians across both parties are going on the record. after republicans liz cheney and adam kinzinger were formally censured by the gop, their misdeed, participating in the investigation into the january 6th insurrection. the news is drawing sharp reaction from their colleagues on the january 6th committee, including jamiel raskin. they're licensing political violence in america. >> they're essentially embracing insurrection and coup as a mode of taking power in the country, and one thing that was particularly alarming to me about it was that it wasn't even clear that donald trump was the one pushing them to do this. they've so internalized the command structure of the new republican party under donald

trump as a cult leader that they just do his will without even being told. >> all right, ali vitali is joining me from capitol hill. great to see you. all of this is happening around the january 6th committee continues to happen, of course, obviously, with the censure of both kinzinger and cheney. that being said, their work continuing. >> yeah, their work continuing and we should note, not even the first time we've seen kinzinger and cheney censured, of course, by their own state parties, they've been rebuked on a local level, but this is, of course, the most national stage that they can be rebuked on by other republicans. that being said, we've heard reaction here on capitol hill from democrats, of course, it has been swift, but also from some republicans, even just in the last few minutes, we heard from alaska senator lisa murkowski in which she said in a tweet, rebuking the comments of her own party, saying, we must not legitimize what happened on january 6th, and going on to say, quote, to suggest it was,

quote, legitimate political discourse, is just wrong. murkowski, of course, one of trump's favorite 2022 midterm election targets. we know he's got a list of them and liz cheney is also on it. in terms of how this impacts the work of the january 6th committee, it really doesn't. there are other things here, though, that it may have an impact on, specifically a bipartisan group of senators who are working to reform the electoral count act. that's an old law from the 1800s that governs the way that vice presidents certify election results. i asked several senators who are part of that bipartisan effort on the republican and democratic side if they thought that trump's latest round of comments about what he thought pence could have done, even though pence couldn't have overturned an election, i asked if trump's comments made their work harder. all of them, from both parties, said, no. so the former president here, of course, muddying the waters and the national party, by and large, going along with him, with this latest censure. but there are people here on the hill still determined to make

the changes necessary to ensure that january 6th could never happen again. >> ali vitali, thank you. we appreciate it. i want to bring in now joyce vance, msnbc legal analyst and former u.s. attorney to talk more about this. joyce, this is great to see you. so, react for me first. you got on the same day, obviously, the censuring of liz cheney and adam kinzinger, also the former vice president rebuking his former boss, the former president donald trump, saying, the president is wrong, the presidency belongs to the american people and the american people alone. quite a split-screen moment, joyce. >> it is a split-screen moment, yasmin. i wish we had seen a stronger pronouncement from the former vice president, though. he seems to have one foot in. he might just as well jump in off the deep end and go ahead and voluntarily testify and tell the truth. that's something that he hasn't at least publicly acknowledged

that he is willing to do up until now. and where we are with both the investigation that's going on on capitol hill and perhaps with a criminal investigation in the justice department is we seem to be right at the precipice of what the former president actually said, acknowledged and did in the run-up to january 6th. so, having conversation precisely from someone like mike pence could be very important here. >> so, let's pivot to that. because now that we have heard him speak as of yesterday, and calling out his former boss, we also know the january 6th committee, up until now, up until essentially the one-year anniversary of the insurrection, somewhat hesitant to call the vice president for testimony. i want to read for you part of a piece talking about the possible testimony of the vice president, saying this. former vice president, i should say. members of the committee have made it no mystery that they

would love to hear his side of the story but they have hesitated to send an invitation. does now seem like the right time to do just that? >> one suspects that there's a little behind-the-scenes dance going on because the former vice president's aides have testified. we've seen reporting from the committee that they were willing to share communications and talk about impressions, but they drew the line at talking about the former vice president's and perhaps their own actual communications with trump. and they gave a reason for that. they said that they did so at the request of the former president's lawyers, asserting executive privilege. so, it sounds like that subtext for saying that they will want to have a court determination on this executive privilege issue since the supreme court has already ruled that trump's documents themselves, his white house papers, aren't privileged. it seems like that sort of an

order would come almost immediately from a court if there was some sort of action filed. at this point, the committee should just go ahead and subpoena the former president or the former vice president, let all of that courtroom proceeding get in the way and get out of -- get done so that the former vice president's testimony can be secured. >> possibly, joyce, your slip of the tongue was a bit accurate in saying, also subpoenaing the former president but that's another day to talk about that. quickly, joyce, while i have you -- >> it was just a slip of the tongue, but i agree. >> yeah. talk about the questioning of a former armor secretary as the censuring was happening of kinzinger and cheney. the former army secretary was being questioned by the january 6th committee in regards to the deployment of the national guard on january 6th. the number one question that so many of us were asking as we watched everything take place on january 6th was, where is the national guard? why did it take so darn long for them to be deployed? talk about how important this

testimony is. >> there was a lot going on at the department of defense after the election. trump put in place a new line of acting officials who were loyal to him, a new secretary, a new chief of staff, some of the undersecretary jobs, particularly in the areas of intelligence and security were filled by trump loyalists. and of course, as say, there was that obvious gaffe on january 6th itself where reinforcement troops did not show up for hours. so now, we have this testimony from the secretary of the army who served trump throughout that point in time, but who was the person in the direct line of command to understand what orders were and were not being given. there have been varying versions of his own conduct. we don't really know yet what the truth is. the important thing here is that the committee is driving hard to get the truth. >> driving hard to get the truth. as you always are as well, joyce advance. thank you. great to see you.

. tomorrow, everybody, an emotional look at the january 6th insurrection, "love and the constitution" documents congressman jaime raskin who just days after losing his son led former president trump's second impeachment trial. sunday at 10:00 eastern right here on msnbc. you don't want to miss it. still ahead, everybody, vaccines for kids under 5 years of age. which the shot could get an emergency approval from the fda for that group and why so many parents are still hesitant. the for that group and why so many parents are still hesitant coming up on "american voices," republican extremism on display,rncdeclaring january 6th, quote, legitimate political discourse. plus the covid end game. how we and the biden administration get there. that and much more ahead, 6:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. there that and much more ahead, 6:00 p.m. eastern right here on 6:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc.

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welcome back, everybody. virginia governor glenn youngkin's executive order making masks optional in schools across the state now on hold after a state judge issued a temporary restraining order blocking the governor's move to overrule local school boards. that judge even going so far as to indicate the seven school districts suing to block the order are, quote, likely to succeed. and governor youngkin also getting some pushback about his own choice not to wear a mask at a grocery store in alexandria. take a listen. >> governor, where's your mask? >> we're only -- >> yeah, look. look around you, governor. you're in alexandria. read the room, buddy. >> and while covid cases are tending downwards, trending downwards, i should say, in virginia, over 6,000 new cases were reported in the state just yesterday. and as the united states crosses

that heartbreaking number of 900,000 dead from the coronavirus, that last group, young children, could soon be eligible for a covid shot. the fda now reviewing pfizer's request to authorize their covid vaccine for children ages 6 months to 5 years of age. that application, including data on the effectiveness of a two-dose regimen, despite plans to submit data for a third dose of the shot in the months to come. one source telling nbc news the fda could grant emergency use authorization for this last age group by the end of the month of february. nbc's stephanie stanton joins us from st. petersberg, florida. gooded to see you. talk to me about how folks are reacting to the news of possibly young kids being eligible for a vaccine, the last major group. >> reporter: indeed. good afternoon to you, yasmin. well, for the most part, there are a lot of parents who are looking forward to this but there is still a lot of vaccine hesitancy out there. last fall, the fda approved

covid vaccines for age groups 5 to 12, but the pfizer has faced some stumbling blocks when trying to get the vaccine approved for the younger set, ages 6 months to 5 years. when they did their initial two-dose trial, for kids ages 2 to 4, it failed to produce enough antibodies against covid. as a result, the company then began testing a three-dose regimen, which they say is showing to be more effective for that age group. but you know, all of this to say, we actually talked to an infectious disease doctor here in florida who explained the unique approach that pfizer is taking when they are now seeking fda clearance. take a listen. >> it's a kind of a unique situation that they're in where they're saying, we want to ask for emergency use authorization for just these two doses, but maybe we will also need a third, and they're going to want to look at that data when it's available too. so, it's going to be, i think, a

very interesting discussion. they'll have to very closely weigh the risks and the benefits of doing that. fortunately, it looks like the data shows that it's safe. >> reporter: but vaccine hesitancy is still a very real thing. not only here in the state of florida but across the country. in fact, according to the cdc data, here in florida, just over 20% of kids ages 5 to 12 have received at least one dose of the covid vaccine. nationally, that number is about 28%, and of course, it varies state by state, yasmin. when you take a look at the states breakdown, you have states like vermont that have roughly a 63% of kids aged 5 to 11, 5 to 12 vaccinated, but then you look at states like mississippi and it's only 11%. so at this point, you know, pfizer moving forward to get this vaccine approved but it is very unique, as you said, because they're really looking forward to push this two-dose regimen, when really three doses in that age group is the most

effective. >> yeah. stephanie stanton, thank you. we appreciate it. by the way, coming up in our next hour, we're going to try and get some things cleared up with our medical contributor, dr. kavita patel, joining me live to address concerns about vaccinating your kids 2 to 5 years of age. so the white house has something to celebrate this weekend. the january jobs numbers are out, and are a lot higher than any prediction, even the president's. 467,000 jobs added, and unemployment remaining in the 4% range, which is close to pre-pandemic levels, by the way. >> america's job machine is going stronger than ever. this morning caps off my first year as president, and over that period, our economy created 6.6 million jobs. 6.6 million jobs. you can't remember another year when so many people went to work in this country. >> joining me now, reporter on

the economy for the "wall street journal." thanks for joining us on this. we appreciate it. i was on the air yesterday as this jobs report was coming out. obviously, we got into it, and it was huge because, of course, the predictions were initially around 150,000 jobs to be added for the month of january, and wow, they really undershot that one, right? and then there were adjustments from months before, december and november, adding even more jobs to the economy, some good news, of course, for americans, first and foremost, the biden administration as well. the problem that the president faces, especially in that speech that i just played some of yesterday, was bridging the gap when it came to inflation, so is -- so there is the perception that the economy is doing quite well. the reality of the economy is doing quite well, but the perception from consumers, those of us that shop every single day, looking to buy cars and/or just fruits and vegetables, and seeing the prices on the shelves. so was the president able to bridge that gap? >> well, i think the president

and the administration are certainly trying on the inflation part. the white house has been talking frequently about what they are trying to do to show that they care that americans are seeing higher prices, and that they are trying to address some of the supply chain bottlenecks that we have seen over the course of the pandemic. but if you look at the labor market, there are a lot of signs of strength in the labor market and i think you can see that jobs numbers yesterday. economists had forecast that it was going to be a very weak report, and that perhaps we would have even seen a net job loss for the month of january. but instead, we saw an increase, and i think economists would say that just points to the fact that there is momentum in the labor market, as you mentioned, those revisions show that the economy added more jobs than previously thought in those last few months of last year, and that momentum seemed to carry on into the new year despite the headwinds from the omicron variant. >> talk to me also about some of the numbers that we're seeing with the black labor force as

well, their participation rebounding back to 62%, a really significant gain for this economy that saw significant loss amongst the black labor force, especially during this pandemic. >> yes, we saw an uptick in the african american labor force participation rate. we saw the unemployment rate for african americans drop, so that is encouraging. but i think what economists would say is that if you look at the african american unemployment rate, it's still almost double the white unemployment rate, and that is unfortunately a trend that we have seen coming out of past downturns in the past. and so, economists are still looking for further improvements in the labor market, both for african americans, women, other groups. we're still looking for the labor force participation rate overall to return to pre-pandemic levels. it's still not there yet, meaning that some workers are still on the sidelines, and overall, we're still down about 3 million jobs compared to where we were pre-pandemic, so still, some room to go here in the labor market.

>> still some work to do and of course always looking at those inflation rates, obviously, as we tick towards the interest rate increase that we're going to be seeing in the spring. amara, thank you. great to talk to you. coming up, everybody, the nfl under fire again, reactions to the lawsuit making big waves in the league and around the country. kavitha davidson joins me live to break it all down. in the leae country. kavitha davidson joins me live kavitha davidson joins me live to break it all down we discover exciting new technologies. redefine who we are and how we want to lead our lives. basically, choose what we want oure to look like. so what's yours going to be? i just heard something amazing! one medication is approved to treat and prevent migraines.

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welcome. new reaction in the explosive lawsuit between former miami dolphins head coach brian flores and the nfl. former cleveland browns head coach hue jackson, a short time ago, with my colleague, alex witt. >> the rooney rule is not working and i think we all can recognize that, and i think what was said just a second ago, that they want to hire people that look like them, i think that's very true. but i think brian has said something that's very clear and it's the same issues that i have for a minority coaches. we just want fairness. we just want an opportunity to compete for the job at a high level and the best person wins. sometimes -- and we want a fair opportunity. i think that's what we're all coming from. but at some point in time, if we don't take a stand to change this right now, it's never going to change. >> so, flores is suing the league, and three of its teams,

for discrimination, claiming these texts between him and new england patriots coach bill belichick were mistakenly sent. belichick congratulated flores on the new york giants head coaching job three days before he was even scheduled to interview for it. the text was actually meant for another brian going for that position which brian daboll ultimately got. flores claims he only secured that interview to satisfy the league's rooney rule, which mandates each team interviews a minority candidate for head coach. general manager and top assistant coach positions. in the same suit, flores claims he had an interview set up with the denver broncos back in 2019 but was also only interviewed because of this rooney rule and was never even considered a legitimate candidate. shortly after being hired as the dolphins head coach, flores also accuses owner steven ross of trying to, quote, tank the season, offering him $100,000 for every single game that they

lost. in statements earlier this week, the nfl and all three times involved in the suit have denied flores's allegations. the dolphins and broncos calling them defamatory and the giants labeling them disturbing and simply false. joining me now is kavitha davidson, sports writer and coauthor of "loving sports when they don't love you back." thanks for joining us, we appreciate it. let's talk about the coach openings. you got nine head coach openings in the nfl this postseason. so far, six of them, kavitha, are filled, none of which have been filled by black coaches. clearly, this rooney rule is not working. so when the nfl says it, in fact, is working to become more inclusive, what do the numbers actually tell you in your reporting? >> the numbers are actually very interesting. in the immediacy after the

rooney rule was instituted, we did see an uptick of black coaches and black head coaches and i think we topped out at six or seven. that's really a good clip in the entirety of the history of the nfl, but in the history of the rooney rule, we have had 129 open head coaching positions and 15 of them have been filled by black head coaches or head coaches of color. so, i think that that tells you it's an 11% to 12% clip there, and that's not indicative of who is playing, who is watching, and where the expertise supposedly is, and that's really a huge difference here. >> i want to bring up some of these stats that i have because we do know most head coaches are obviously recruited from, come from, coordinator positions, if you're looking at offensive coordinators, you have four african american offensive coordinators, defensive coordinators, there are 11, special team coordinators, 3,

quarterback coaches, 3 as well. but if we go back to those stats that we were showing a little bit earlier and talking about the diversity inside some of the teams, of 32 teams, you have one black head coach. seven black general managers, right? so, talk to me about the disparity here, kavitha, and then how do you fix it? what do you do? >> yeah, i mean, those are two things that we could spend an entire hour each talking about, at least. first, on the disparity there, you hear a lot about the coaching tree and about the pipeline. the issue is that the pipeline is not there, that there isn't enough diversity in the bottom ranks of coaching in the access to the kinds of jobs that get there, that get to the point of a head coaching position. but then, that gets completely displayed when you look at somebody like eric bieniemy or brian flores, who has head coaching experience, and you can name a ton of people who have the offensive coordinator

position experience and who have existed within these coaching trees, who have not been given the opportunities to actually show what they're worth as a head coach. the other issue there that brian flores does get to in this lawsuit is the shorter leash that black head coaches do have once they are actually able to make it to that position. he had two winning seasons, and was, you know, given the yank essentially for what he describes as being characterized as being difficult to work with, but it seems that what he's saying is that he was just not toeing the company line when you bring up the stephen ross allegations as well. >> kavitha davidson, for now, because this thing is going to continue, thank you. coming up, everybody, on "politics nation," brian flores himself speaks with my colleague, the reverend al sharpton. it is a conversation you will not want to miss. that is on "politics nation" starting at 5:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. coming up in our next hour,

the cost of defiance. former vice president mike pence's public rebuke of trump's false election claims fuels discord in the republican party. but why now? and what it means for the gop as it punishes two of their own for splitting with the former president. olivia troye, former top aide to pence, joins me live after the break to answer some of those questions. we'll be right back. r some of t questions. we'll be right back.

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