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tv   The Beat With Ari Melber  MSNBC  February 9, 2022 3:00pm-4:00pm PST

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that does it for "deadline white house" on this wednesday. thanks for being with us. he's pushing facts and logic, "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> pushing facts, always pushing facts. hi, jason. i want to welcome you to "the beat" but we begin with breaking news. tonight we are tracking an escalation from the january 6th committee. this was breaking late today. it involves trump white house vet peter navarro, who is so vocal about trying to overthrow the election that many legal experts say he opened himself up
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to a potential formal subpoena. though he recently told us he had not at that time got one. >> here they are poised to probably subpoena jordan perry navarro. >> congratulations peter navarro, i think you just earned yourself a subpoena. >> will his be the next subpoena to drop? >> has the house probe requested your cooperation? >> no. >> no. and that no came about two weeks ago. navarro's admissions about trying to overthrow the election came about four weeks ago right here on t beat. the news tonight is the january 6 committee just subpoenaed navarro, pressing him to go under oath about his confessed plot. this committee's new letter asked navarro to come in, provide evidence and testimony about his work with steve bannon, these plots to challenge the election, what they call this green bay sweep or a coup, which he outlined, among other
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things. that sweep or coup is the center piece of the failed navarro/bannon plot. they wanted to try to use to compel then vice president pence to claim pence could stop the finalizing of trump's loss, which was lawful and complete. under questioning, navarro cast that effort to end democracy, as a kind of optional end run that he could focus on six states where trump lost. >> we had over 100 congressmen and senators on capitol hill ready to implement the sweep. we were going to challenge the results of the election in six battleground states. most or all of those states would desert identify the election. that would throw the election to the house of representatives. the election was still in doubt. we were following the constitution and rules of the senate to simply get a recount of what the votes were. >> do you realize you are
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describing a coup? >> no. >> that was just part of the admissions navarro has made, both in that interview and in public. this new subpoena here, which is out tonight, demands that he testify about the claim that over 100 members of congress were in on it and that trump was on board. the committee wants documents by february 23rd and a deposition on march 2nd. these are escalations in a multifaceted plot to steal the election. let's be clear, bannon, now indicted, and navarro, now under subpoena, they call it a sweep. other experts see a coup. will navarro comply or resist, risking more legal jeopardy? i'll show you this. we'll put this back up on the screen because the committee in the new letter here accompanying the subpoena notes, he has not been shy in detailing his efforts. quote, you have already discussed these issues in interviews with reporters.
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we look forward to discussing them with you too. and there you have it. that is as close to shade as a formal congressional investigation gets. and they are saying something that many people have noticed. he applauded the efforts to both lie about the outcome, to get others to lie about it in potentially criminal ways, and to overthrow the election in the past is not something that has remained a secret or a plot. it has more looked like an advertisement. and that is dangerous for many reasons, including whether it is a dry run to normalize this in a more effective way in the future. we have more of a breakdown here because as you may have noticed "the beat" has been all over this story. i want to bring in joyce vance and john flannery and journalist josh marshal. john, your reaction to this development? >> i think it's a big development, you know? because what we do is we have a man making such admissions. and you really closed the case
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on him when you got him basically to say, this is how we were going to do it. you said, that's a coup, and it was because of two particular reasons. one is they talk about law that is not law, and they talk about facts that are not facts, meaning that there are states, including the battleground states, that have any objection at all to the electors that were chosen. and what they hope to do was to, i think, cause the disturbance, physical and violent disturbance, but at the same time to have a series of votes on supposed states that had reservations and make each of those a four-hour extravaganza so there would be 24 hours. i think they hope by exhaustion they could send it back to the states that would certify or decertify. they bring it back and then they would steal the election. sorry to go on so long, but that was, i think, their plot. and the green bay sweep was to wipe it across -- to have all these hundred senators and
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representatives on the deal. so, each of them is exposed to criminal obligations. the question is will the justice department do something about it. if we're not going to get anything out of this subpoena in the end, then i think we should start thinking about inherit -- the inherit power of the house -- >> let me -- before we turn to -- i don't want to get into inherit power yet frankly because we have a lot of big breaking news and that's a known. >> sure. >> our experts -- our viewers have heard about it. it's a thing that exists. with regard to the breaking news, i do want to bring joyce into the point the committee raises because they say he's already talking about it so he should talk to them. we always report everything we know here. and mr. navarro put out a statement later today invoking privilege, saying maybe what he dealt with including with the president is privileged. it's not for him to reveal it. where does that come down in your view, joyce? >> the privilege applies when you're talking about folks who are concerned about prosecution down the road. so, that's certainly something that a witness can assert.
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they still have to come in and make that assertion question by question. and so there are a lot of interesting nuances here. ari, i think the committee throws an awful lot of shade in this letter, and they drive straight up the middle, telling us why they're the most interested in peter navarro. and the point they make is he had said that president trump approved of the green bay sweep. so, they will want to have a very thorough discussion with him about why he made that statement and what conversations he had with the former president and what the basis for that is. and it may be that we're now reaching this juncture where doj's willingness to enforce congressional subpoenas is going to be fully tested. they have sat on mark meadows for a long time. peter navarro is a better case for enforcement. but as you point out in your question, that fifth amendment assertion, saying, i can't answer because it might incriminate me, that's something that doj will likely back away from pretty fast.
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congress might then decide that they want to compel navarro. if doj won't enforce their subpoenas, they need to have some way to get this testimony, they can do that by giving navarro immunity and compelling him to testify. >> right. >> but doj may have some concerns at that point. >> right. so, there's more than one avenue there. look, our panel stays. i promised folks we would get more in depth, and i want to do that right now because the january 6 committee wants to know more than one thing from navarro. they want him under oath about the sweep, as we've been discussing. it's been 36 days since he admitted that here on the beat, but there's other newer reporting also emerging about the fraudulent election lost, like giuliani and epstein pushed that. they're also under subpoena. the whole idea was to give pence the idea to cast doubt on the states biden won. this committee might want to know if navarro's plot connected
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with the fraudulent electors' plot. what did those hundred members of congress that were supposedly in on this, what were they in on? did they know this would intersect voter fraud? >> we had over 100 congressmen and senators on capitol hill ready to implement the sweep. we believe that if the votes were sent back to the battleground states that most or all of those states would decertify the election. senator ted cruz and gosar, a representative, started the green bay sweep beautifully. >> do you realize you are describing a coup? >> no. we were following the constitution. >> the issue you raised in terms of fraudulent elector certifications, our prosecutors are looking at those. >> that last line is recent. the deputy attorney general
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confirming a criminal probe. now, navarro seems convinced of his vocal approach, where he is the source of some of the very best evidence against him right now, amplified on air. now, it may seem down right bizarre, but this is not actually unprecedented. as one legal text put it, quote, never knew hustlers confessed on video. watch what comes out your mouth, can make a tight case, with the d.a. from here to down south. say you're a player, but only because you be playing yourself. that's wisdom from kendrick drew davis all the way back to 1986 and it may still apply. i want to go to josh. i quote that because it refers to something known in the law, which is, you might be surprised how many people accused of crimes are the source of some of the best evidence against themselves. >> often when a client comes to you, you ask the question, so,
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did you talk to anybody? and often they say, no. i don't think they understand the question. then you find out they talked for six hours and they signed a statement and they initialled it and they took people to the site of the crime and showed them their documents and gave them their passwords and everything else. i came if from a neighborhood where where the uncle on the beat was known to you, he wouldn't talk to you. but we knew the rules of the road. these guys are arrogant because nothing's happened to anybody else. i think they do this figuring we have to win this because that's how we get out of this. so, we can do anything. and you had that clip when i appeared the last time, i believe, in which bannon and navarro were saying, oh, we're unreasonable people. and yes, we created chaos. it's unreasonable. we confused the argument. we normalized things that everybody used to know was a crime. and then we go forward. >> yeah. >> so, joyce made a good point about the give immunity to someone. and as prosecutors, we think in that way. but on the hill it's a dangerous
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thing. if you remember ollie north, he got immunity from the senate. he was convicted on trial afterwards. and on appeal they threw it out because they viewed that the immunity on the hill precluded the prosecution. so, it's very dangerous. >> yeah. >> and that's why justice department involvement is critical, and it hasn't happened yet. >> so, josh, widening beyond just the legalities of this as a subpoena, there's pressure. bannon's under indictment. you followed all of this. it's not as if nobody's ever gotten in trouble. there's serious felonies. there's trials coming. what do you see in the way that the committee is tracking something that relates to the health of our democracy ongoing? >> you know, what we've seen with navarro there, it's a classic trumpian approach because what they're doing is it must be okay because i'm saying it out loud. and how else would it not be? you see what he's going through
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there. well, you just -- you do this thing and then you send it back to the states and they decertify the election. as you said, that -- you can't -- that's not the constitution. that's not the statute law. that's not anything. that's just saying step by step how you try to overturn the election. but the thing is to a great extent, this has worked for trump, and it's worked for many of his deputies. you even that, you know, there was another breaking development this afternoon where the national had archives have asked the department of justice to examine this question of what -- you know, what was president trump doing with all these presidential records, whether it was trying to destroy them in real time or ship 15 boxes down to mar-a-lago. you know, this is an example of, you know, in previous administrations there have been some questions at the margins. well, you know, should you have taken that one document, that
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one gift from a head of state or something like this? included to me is one of those letters back and forth between him and the head of the north korean government. there's no question he was breaking the law with what i think is almost demonstrably criminal intent. or how about when a president is taking records in real time and tearing them up and throwing them in the trash can? this is so -- this is so clearly not only violations of this law but violations of this law with a criminal intent, which is to cover things up, not a question of, like, did you file something right or something like that. so, i think, you know, you see navarro there. he's back to that same strategy, which is, if we just say step by step exactly what we did, maybe that will make everybody think, well, i guess it's okay. he's not -- he's not ducking at all. >> no, he's not. >> and maybe if you're standing
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up on tv in a red tie and a white shirt. he had all the different strategies going on there. but i think -- >> well, josh, i don't want to make light of anything here, but he does do his hits standing up. that is his choice. you do yours sitting down. so, you have some bias here because you're known as a seater. >> i do, i do. >> continue. >> i do, i do. that's true. you know, look, i think as we discussed yesterday, this is what -- you know, people were sort of counting the january 6 committee out, that they were going to -- you know, that they were going to let their targets, the people they were investigating run out the clock, all this kind of stuff. but i think, as we've seen, even -- even aside from whatever legal victories they may have in the courts, compelling testimony and so forth, and long before there's any report or any findings, they are just forcing this story back into press again and again and again. >> yeah. >> and the one point i would
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disagree with, i actually did -- i think congress should give more immunity, not less. i think people -- i have a different perspective on the north thing. because fundamentally the most important thing is not whether peter navarro, you know, three years from now spends 18 months in jail. what's really important is that we find out what happened. and hopefully once we find out what happened, if it's appropriate, then as many people as possible should face consequences for that. but the key thing has to be that we find out what happened. that is what's key for democracy, to get that out. so, i take your point. you don't want to do it, you know, recklessly or without any sense of the consequences. >> yeah. >> but i think if we have to choose, our focus should be let's find out what happened. and if someone can skate a bit, you know, that's okay. >> yeah, and it speaks to the countervailing pressures here.
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this is very important. it was an attempted coup. there was violence. and there's a question about how high it went. so, the criminal accountability, which is in our system -- there was plenty of other people, i cover the stories, who get the book thrown at them right away. the criminal accountability is part of it. that's punitive. that's also a deterrence. but there's the larger bit of past commissions like 9/11 commission that wasn't just looking at nailing people. they're also looking at how do you bullet proof this stuff. this was an attack on our democracy in its own way like 9/11. and you have to bullet proof the democracy if you want to keep it. i take those points. before we end, i want to throw one other big thing back at joyce. we look at who was in on this and when. navarro recently. but there's also reporting that back in the key days leading up to the resurrection, you had these die hard trump aides, like mark meadows, who ended up pushing back at the end on some of the more extreme plans, like
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trying to abuse military power. we recently learned it was navarro's team that stayed nonit until the end. that brings us to the co-conspirators in the oval office. consider, for example, a meeting where the road to this military option was discussed. michael flynn, the former general convicted in the mueller probe, only got back in to see trump in those last desperate days because he was led to the oval office by one of peter navarro's aides. i'll tell you right here, that's odd because navarro's job did not typically give him that role. but thanks to reporting from the "new york times," we learned there was concern about escorting these liars into the oval after their guest privileges were revoked by meadows, who would normally be the one to escort to the oval office. but in this case refused. so, navarro picked up the pieces, basically keeping the plot in a lie. that may shed light on who was making that last stand when those measures were thwarted by
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law, by courts, and in some way by mike pence, who ducked navarro then. he recently basically rebutted the truly bonkers navarro/bannon/trump conspiracy theory that vice presidents can just cancel elections. >> the remedy was for vice president as the quarterback in the green bay sweep, to remand those votes to the battleground states. >> you say, quote, pence refused to take my repeated phone calls about election irregularities. >> i simply wanted to brief mike on what i found. >> why wouldn't he listen to you? >> his chief of staff basically walled off vice president pence. the thing about mike's betrayal of president trump, which is really interesting, is he never shared the legal analysis of the general counsel. >> president trump is wrong. i had no right to overturn the election. >> joyce, final question, as i mentioned. several parts of this. this is the last one we wanted
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to get to for your reaction. what all of the yields about that intense pressure to have help on the inside for the coup, which did fail? >> peter navarro is not a lawyer. he's a trade adviser. he was a snake oil salesman for covid cures. this is not someone who came up with a plan for stealing an election, for overthrowing an election. he was not an election expert, didn't really understand anything about the nuts and bolts of elections. so, he, in many ways, is a gate keeper at this point. as you say, mark meadows has been pushed aside. and where is peter navarro getting the plans that are being circulated from? who knows? but maybe they're coming from some of the lawyers. so, he has a lot of information that he can clarify for the committee if he chooses to. and we're at this fulcrum. as josh says, we need to know the truth. that's really the most important thing here. so, i take flannery's point that
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immunity for congressional witnesses is very dangerous because it can immunize them from prosecution. and that's exactly the point. we don't know what doj is doing. we don't know if they're going to make good on merrick garland's january 5 promise, that they would investigate how high up things went. but if congress teeters on the edge of giving immunity to a witness like peter navarro, i think we'll find out very quickly where doj is in this. he plays a critical role at the end where almost anyone with any senses is out of the way, most of the guardrails are off, and we're left with peter navarro, the snake oil salesman, taking his eggs in to meet with the president of the united states. >> it's fascinating. this is really good context on a big development. we'll fit in a break. when we come back, good news on the pandemic. hypocrisy over at fox news later
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in the hour. and fact checking mcconnell on the biden economy. paul crookman is here. we'll be right back. crookman i. we'll be right back.ifty bucks . overdraft assist from chase. make more of what's yours. aleve-x. it's fast, powful long-lasting relief with a revolutionary, rollerball design. because with the right pain reliever... life opens up. aleve it... and see what's possible. one of the worst things about a cold sore is how it can make you feel. but, when used at the first sign, abreva can get you back to being you in just 2 and a half days. be kinder to yourself and tougher on your cold sores. why do dermatologists use dove bar at home? the dove beauty bar is gentle... it is moisturising.
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turning to the other big reality that so many people are living with, covid in america. now it is plummeting, really all over the place. omicron cases fading after the big spike, and there are new concrete moves by the government to try to turn the page from crisis mode to mitigation. that includes dr. fauci himself. he's -- of course, we know, he's a leader and a lightning rod for the entire approach of having national safety measures, guidelines, and mandates. so, this is pretty interesting. today he says, the time for national mandates and planning has ended, saying, we're heading out of a full-blown pandemic phase, and safety decisions will be made on a local level rather than centrally decided or -- there's that word -- mandated. we keep it real around here, so
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translation, less federal mandates like biden's vax or test rule, which the supreme court halted anyway, and a lot more local calls. last year those calls often broke along party lines. blue states often and generally pushed stricter measures. most red states left things loose or even did their own version of mandates, but they mandated bans against certain safety measures like florida governor ron desantis, which is something he pushed for both policy and political brawls. now, in this new year right now, we are actually seeing blue follow red. the democratic new jersey governor leading what's a wave of nine blue states rolling back mask mandates. or take new york, hit so hard by covid and known for one of the stricter general state adult mandates, which forces businesses to check people's vaccination or make them wear a mask. that's different than other parts of the country.
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if you've been in new york, you may have seen it happen. this new governor shedding that. a watershed moment, reflecting the continued decline of omicron with far reaching impact on many public settings. that governor touting progress along with the themes hit by several leaders recently. >> so, new yorkers, this is what we've waited for, tremendous progress after two long years. >> we are lifting rhode island's state-wide mask or proof of vaccination protocol for indoor public settings. >> and we have far more tools available to us to deal with the pandemic than we had back at the beginning. >> and at this time, we say that it's the right decision to lift this mandate for indoor businesses and let counties, cities, and businesses to make their own decisions on what they want to do. >> you follow that? you got the feds, like fauci,
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saying states should make their own decisions. you've got states loosening it and saying the local folks can make their own decisions. this is both important, and frankly i think it's kind of interesting because the shifts are not only about covid's decline but also adjusting to how trade-offs in policy really do change when covid is entering this long-term endemic mode we keep hearing about. let me go over a couple of things. consider a few facts. one, costly measures, like completely isolating or testing every day, are different for a society when they're applied on a short, temporary basis, versus saying we're going to do them long term or do them year after year. two, not all available safety measure versus the same power. you might say, yeah, duh, ari. but if you listen to the debates about this, things can get pretty lost or pretty extreme pretty quickly. just consider an example. the cdc recommends both vaccines and masks.
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and both can help. but the scientific evidence shows they are not close when you talk about safety measures. vaccines are really like seat belts. they will keep you from flying through the windshield in virtually all crashes. the data on that is overwhelming. being vaccinated doesn't just give you double or triple the protection of skipping the shots -- by the way, triple the protection is good. it actually protects you 97 times -- 97 times -- as much as the unvaccinated from dying of covid. that's vaccines. take that information for what you will. now, masks are a bit more like, say, driving 10 miles per hour slower. it could help. it's an option. but it certainly doesn't prevent all crashes. medical experts are actually divided on the ongoing mask mandates. some studies fail to find any effect, for example, in school mask mandates. other studies have found that if
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you use the better surgical masks you can drop the infection rate by 11%. that's great. that's a worth while edge. but 11% is no silver bullet, certainly nothing like a vaccine. i said i'd tell you a couple things. here's the third. even measures that work really well, they still have trade-offs that are valid to debate in a way n a democracy bh we're dealing with this over the long haul. it was absurd for donald trump to claim in 2020 that covid would just go away by itself. but in 2022, it's unrealistic for politicians to just demand everyone stay in year one emergency mode when part of getting back to some normalcy probably means finding ways to build normal practices for ourselves within this life, in this new mode. that's where if you think about it, fauci's new message on adaptation meets a new song by the artist rick ross. he has braved health scares from the streets to the er.
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in a song that dropped in december, ross spoke about, quote, how to separate the men and mice. they call it a pandemic when it's really life. facts. so, how can we apply changing facts to this changing reality? let me tell you something. from fauci and rick ross, the boss, to the former rnc boss, michael steele. you know what it is. something tells me we'll get answers in 60 seconds. mething tt mething tt answers in 60 seconds. energy of the tiny electron. we can create new ways to connect. rethinking how we communicate to be more inclusive than ever. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions, vmware helps companies navigate change. faster. vmware. welcome change. if you wake up thinking about the market and want to make the right moves fast...
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get decision tech from fidelity. [ cellphone vibrates ] you'll get proactive alerts for market events before they happen... and insights on every buy and sell decision. with zero-commission online u.s. stock and etf trades. for smarter trading decisions, get decision tech from fidelity. from pandemic to endemic, i quoted a boss, now we turn to the boss. michael steele, good to have you back, sir. >> what's up, brother? good to be with you, as always, ari. >> what's up? well, we walked through some of these shifts. what do you see, both in blue following red, and a difficult but needed conversation and adjustment to where we're going? >> well, so, i've got -- first of all i just want to say i
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think -- i think your audience really appreciated what you did because you laid down a very strong predicate for this conversation and for what people should really be thinking about at this point. i have two thoughts that come to mind based on what you said. the first is a practical one. one of the strengths and one of the challenges of this entire process was the coordination and alignment of the messaging and the science, the messaging on the science, the how you move the people to understand and better respond to what was happening around them. we got the early days of confusion, what was up, what was down. we then figured that out and then we were going through another, oh, my god, what is this? part two? and then there was a part three. so, i think where we are now is people have largely understood how this -- what the life span of this has been and what their -- what their reality has
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been as this has evolved. where they are now is, okay, we're ready to play. and democrats begin to understand that as well, as we're seeing the blue following the red. but let's understand what they are not following. they were not following the irresponsible messaging and behavior that occurred prior to where we are right now. you know, folks were told to inject themselves with bleach or, you know, we're going to be back in church by easter. don't worry about it. it's all going to go away. so, they approached it very practically. the problem for both the trump administration and the biden administration was that alignment of the message on the science and the message of how we walk through this. now, the more cynical side of me heard something else from what you said. and that was there's an election in november. voters at the polls, we're very,
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very clear. they're tired. i want my kid back in school and i don't want them wearing a mask because the science tells us a, b, c, and d. now you have the political pushing the practical. in other words, the practical part of, okay, no masks, if you've got the vaccine, et cetera, is coming into play because of the politics of what's coming down the road. and you want to be off of that messaging, that negative messaging that voters have come to believe about where we are with covid right now. put on a positive front. show the economies are turning around, kids are back in school, masks are optional, depending on what's going on in your community, which is why governors are saying give it to the localities. >> yep, excellent breakdown. as you say, no false equivalence about some of the irresponsible actions taken. yet any leader has to be able to adjust. i mean, at what point does joe
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biden, who was very bullish on his mandate for a lot of reasons -- and again, vax or test is not forcing people to vax. it's just not. >> right. >> if you talk about messaging, they had weeks where people were talking about it like a vax mandate, which is different. i can just say when it comes to legal rights and people's personal decisions you can respect, that's very different than if you don't want to vax test. >> it is. >> at what point do you think the biden administration has to further pivot? or do you feel they're in the right place? >> i think right now they're in the right place unless the science tells us that the place has moved, right, that what's going on in that space is changing. in other words, as we now -- you know, we're at the halfway point between winter and spring. as we begin to move into the spring months, what happens? what's our reality? you know, kids are back in schools. the mandates have been lifted in large measure. economies are further opening.
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businesses are seeing employees come back, et cetera. are there spikes? are there other things that come up out of where we are right now that the president and governors, cdc, others have to look at that may change the course that we're on? but i think right now we're in a good space. the reality of it is a lot of americans risk their own lives and the lives of their fellow american by being selfish. president biden had to navigate through that, you know? and did so bumpily at times -- if there is such a word -- with a lot of bumps. but also did manage to get to a point where now the governor of new york, governor of california, governors around the state, blue states, red states, can begin to look more optimistically about how to put in place the reopening of their economies and their communities with a lot less stress than
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we've seen in recent months. >> fair. and you ask, is bumpily a word. we would have to call george will or somewhere of that area. i don't know. >> we'll just make it work for our conversation. we'll just make it work for tonight. it's bibly, bumpily. >> i will say this, michael steele here, we feel the segment both bumps and slaps like any good club banger, if you know what i mean, michael. >> i've got to lay that down on some tracks when i do my dee jaying tonight. that's good. slap. put a few slaps in there. >> michael steele, we always love have you you. we have paul krugman, a noble lawyer coming up, as joe biden sells record breaking jobs numbers. that and more coming up. breakis numbers. numbers. that and more coming up.
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♪♪ people are hurting in all sorts of ways, but there is a record breaking jobs boom afoot, some calling it ai biden boom. economic growth breaking all records, partly from investing in covid relief and infrastructure. senator mcconnell says, no credit for biden. >> working men and women of this country know painfully well that the biden administration's economy is failing them. it is not owed particular credit for the fact that our economy has continued to climb out of the crater caused by the 2020
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lockdowns. >> this is not a situation where you have a clear fact check yes or no. mcconnell's referring to some larger macro factors. if you look at what we know, more jobs created in biden's first year than any president in history. that's not only triple trump, but more than other presidents who also inherited or oversaw a rebound. over the past 100 years the economy has grown faster generally under democrats than republicans. that's an annual average that suggests a pattern. now, with a biden boom coming out of the white house, that's the message they want, you still have other issues we've been covering, inflation, wage equality -- inequality, i mean -- and a lot of billionaires reaping a lot of benefits during these tough times. for a little context, we turn to paul krugman, long time columnist for the "new york
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times." good to have you back, sir. >> good to be on. >> make it make sense for us. >> okay. i mean, mcconnell's operating under the rule that anything bad that happens is joe biden's fault and anything good that happens of course is just despite biden. but clearly this really is a -- this is a way better recovery than we've seen in a long time. now, the last three recessions were followed by long periods of slow, jobless recovery. it took years before we got anywhere close to where we were before. and this time we're coming back, we're roaring back. and it is clear, at least in part, driven by the biden administration's policies. without the american rescue plan, people would have a lot less purchasing power. we basically sustain people through the difficulties of the pandemic and gave them the wherewithal to start going out and doing business. so, you know, if anything, the critique would be that maybe we have too much of a good thing,
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that we've created jobs so fast that we're running into some inflation problems. but the idea that this is not -- you know, that this jobs boom is not the result of policy is crazy. and this -- it's a very, very good thing. we forget, having jobs isn't just good, you know, right now. it -- think about students graduating into this market. you know, after the last several recessions, we had people whose entire lives were shattered by the fact that they were -- had trouble getting their foot on the first wrung of the ladder towards a better career. and this time, graduates are graduating into an amazingly good labor market, a labor market where employers are desperate for their services. >> for workers who are seeing whatever few raises they've gotten completely eaten by inflation, how do you as someone who's devoted so much your work to addressing inequality, how do we view inflation through that
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prism? and is there anything more that could be done for regular working people? >> well, to a large extent, i mean, obviously the inflation is a problem. although it is worth pointing out that we are seeing rising wages, which on average are not keeping up with inflation right now. but the wage increases have been much bigger for people lower down the pay scale. it actually depends on whose numbers you use exactly. but basically the bottom half of the work force is doing a lot better relative to inflation than the top half. it's the highly paid who really are seeing a big lag behind prices, which is not to say that it's all okay. and even lower paid workers are feeling some pain. but most of that is due to things that are really outside -- gasoline prices are not something that a u.s. president controls. world oil prices, world commodity prices. you have the whole world recovering from the pandemic and is having a hard time, you know, unsnarling things. we have the supply chain
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problems, which are global. so, by all means, you know, try -- you know, one of the best things you can do in the face of inflation is make sure that people at least have jobs. you know, it would be -- we would probably have most of this inflation, even if we hadn't had the jobs boom. >> yeah. >> the jobs boom, at least less bad. >> yeah. quick question. what's your go-to coffee order, professor? >> oh, gosh, i'm a -- i'm a black coffee drinker, and i actually -- i'm a barbarian, my european friends tell me. i prefer filter coffee to espresso coffee. >> shoutout to drip. i do black coffee as well. that brings us to whether you're into latte, so many americans are. you look at starbucks. they're raising prices, citing higher costs. you mentioned how that is very real. meanwhile they've got a ceo who's compensation went up 40%,
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to 20 million. what is your nobel economist's reaction to that when those of us that know less of economists say, gosh, maybe some of that money could go toward the other stuff? >> clearly one of the things we had hoped for because we're living under the administration, we're not going to get substantially higher taxes on the rich. but still a good idea to. what extent we're actually seeing profiteering. i don't think the inflation we're seeing is being driven by a sudden surge in corporate greed because the corporations have been greedy all along. it is true it's stressing to see this happening. and there may be a bit of opportunists, a bit of companies saying nobody will notice if we're charging outrageous prices because of the inflation around us. more important, stronger trust, higher corporate tax. those things might or might not have a large impact on
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inflation. it would probably have some impact. and they're the right thing to do in any case. >> professor, i've got to tell you, i feel as informed as if i just read a paul goodman column. >> okay. >> thanks for joining us. >> take care. >> appreciate it. up ahead, gutfield is absolutely getting crushed by himself. stay with us. with us i don't just play someone brainy on tv - i'm an actual neuroscientist. and i love the science behind neuriva plus. unlike ordinary memory supplements, neuriva plus fuels six key indicators of brain performance. gutfeld, gutfeld,
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. you know fox's greg gutfeld, pugnacious late night host. he's taking his show down to dallas. the audience members who show up must show proof of vaccination or negative covid test to get in, something that's not even required for other events at that same venue. so there you have it. that is the fox anchor's requirement to see him, vax or test. like biden's vax or test mandate. the hypocrisy writes itself. >> what you're truly seeing is a division between the power and
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powerless. forgive americans for being a little bit skeptical of authorities. we now have laws and restriction for the law abiding only. if they start talking about borders, americans don't take orders. you can be mandated to do this or that but no such efforts are directed at the shoplifters, looters, homeless encampments populated the cities. >> yes, you can be mandated. getting orders from fox so you can see how they might be a little skeptical. they're valid debates about covid safety measures. we touched on them earlier tonight. when you have elites like mr. gutfeld demanding the very covid safety rules for himself that he claims to criticize every night on tv, you can tell it's not on the level. and for fox news, a place that claims they report and you decide, the fact is mr. gutfeld wants to make these decisions
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it's been quite a news day from the house subpoenaing peter navarro to a lot of developments on covid. thanks for spending time with us. we're out of time. "the reid out" with joy reid is with us. >> even though you're physically allowed to leave the studio. our folks are going to see you. you've done some pretty interesting interviews that we're going to replay. cheers on that. >> thank you, joy. >> have a good evening. good evening, everyone. we begin "the reid out" tonight in the halls of congress, hallowed, revered, sacred to some, but also historically pretty violent. back in the bad old days between 1830 and 1860 members of congress engaged in at least 80 acts of physical violence, something we know thanks to


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