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tv   Dateline  MSNBC  February 26, 2022 10:00pm-11:00pm PST

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hi, everybody. welcome back. it is 1:00 a.m. in the east, 8:00 a.m. in the ukraine, where officials in the nation's capital of russian missile attack russian missile attack
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-- taking up arms, barricading roads, making molotov cocktails to throw at invaders. terrell jermaine, host of the black diplomat spot cast, a nonresident senior fellow at the atlantic council eurasia center joining me now from kyiv. terrell, it's good to talk to you. once again, we spoke about 24 hours ago or so at this time. and you had a pretty troubling night. hearing in a distance, bombing and shelling, how was your evening last night?
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>> much worse. much worse. if it wasn't for the ukrainian military, we would all be dead. we are experiencing heavy fire like we did experience before. unfortunately, my heart was quiet. we don't know who is safe and who is not. we are under a curfew. martial law and we're told to stay inside because there are several tools here. and we are looking on the ground from our windows to see who is who. yes, there is been a great deal of shelling. i've been interviewing -- i interviewed a woman yesterday whose home was destroyed by a russian missile. i'm writing a story shortly. this is hell. there are no other words to describe it other than that. >> what have you been hearing, terrell? what are you seeing, that you
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can describe for us? >> there are just bombings, explosions, gunfire. like i said, fortunately, the ukrainian military is fighting back. and i'll just read something from a military reporter who's actually on the scene with a military. he says, so far, we have the russian main forces struggling to enter kyiv. we have casualties. the northwest is still very strong, and air defense, keep strong those explosions out here are perhaps interceptors. i don't know. but i suspect small [inaudible] but they get destroyed. and as he closed out by saying there's a full control, but i definitely hear more explosions, more semiautomatic fire, like never before. it's getting worse. and i've been told it tonight could potentially be the worst,
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because the city was supposed to be taken over, but it hasn't happened. >> what's type of building are you in, terrell? i know the apartment building was bombed, lives were lost. are you scared? what's type of problem are you in, what's around you? nothing but residencies, i'm definitely going to see the different shelter tonight. fortunately in my neighborhood, from what i know so far, there haven't been any hits here. but the city is used as the size of chicago. so it is hard to know what is to hit and what is not to hit. i have not seen any armaments, any activity that would suggest that -- can't confirm that.
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haven't been out. we are in the curfew and we can't get out. >> is there a point where you're going to get what of kyiv? do you what -- do you have a plan? >> i have a plan to be vigilant. my plan is to write would i emulate the saying. well i got under together. so i'm going to report, that is what i'm here to do. >> the people you have been speaking to, however they've been feeling? worried about their city being taken over? separated from their families loss of life? how are they doing? >> the best that they can do under the circumstances. i spoke to a woman whose house was destroyed, they left two days before the war. they were telling me that -- she was living on the 16th floor and even though she is
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fortunate enough to be alive, she says that she knew that multiple neighbors were killed. people are numb. people are just hurt that someone would do this. because as far as they are concerned, besides i'm concerned, based on whose language, that it is genocide that he is committing. and as far as what we do? my friends, and my professional colleagues, we text each other each morning. three words. are you alive? those hour are or common morning greetings. >> terrell jermaine starr, we thank you for talking to us. each and every night, morning for you. as you are trying to remain safe. please stay in contact with us,
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and our team. as this develops, we wish you the best. we hope you stay safe. and we hope you continue to report on the situation in ukraine. thank you trial. from ukraine, we will go to moscow where russians are waking up to the consequences promised by the west, and by putin's war on ukraine. that is where we find russ sanchez who is on the capitol. with more on this. raf, the stock market falling calamitous flee this week. the value of the rubble ships fell sharply as well. this partial expulsion from swift yesterday, could break the russian economy as you and i've been talking about. give me the reaction that you're getting? >> the announcement from the u.s., and the european states, that they were keeping some russian banks off of swift. came in the early hours of the morning, moscow time.
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many russians are only waking up now. on the sunday morning, and realizing that their country is in a serious financial vice. it is not at all clear what comes next. i got a call in my hotel room yesterday, from the front desk. they asked me to sell a bill early. they are not confident the credit cards are going to be working going forward. one of the big concerns are about the ruble. the russian currency, as you mentioned, has lost a lot of value already. but it can lose a whole lot more of the coming days. and vladimir putin had a plan for this. since 2014, he has been building up something about a financial war chest. a foreign coach's currency reserves. and the idea that he would use those reserves to prop up the rubble, in the event of sanctions. china shields the economy from major damage.
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but -- on the central bank, he doesn't have access to a lot of that war chest now. it is not clear that there is anything that the russian government can do to prop up the rubble. so, it is looking like it may be a very difficult couple of days coming up, financially. yasmin? >> and then the question is will it work? rob sanchez, as always, thank you. nice if they talk to you. let's turn to the decision by the u.s., and their agreements to face those crippling sanctions on the sector. blocking access to the global sector, like we were just talking about, and the first time, restrictions on the central bank. senior biden's official, described the move as applying the iran model. helping to turn russia into our financial piranha. joining us now, former u.s. passenger to poland. thank you for joining us.
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we know that poland is a huge help right now to several refugees in ukraine, so they can secret safety there. let's talking about trying to expel certain banks from the system. and how -- whether or not, i should say, about this should work? what do you say? >> thank you so much for letting me be with you. the, certainly significant sanctions that were announced by the u.s., canada, and european partners tonight. the reason it's until yesterday there was a quite an ill -- but as the urgency of the situation in ukraine, and the massive political pressure that spilled out across europe, in the last 24 hours, that move quickly change minds. it indicates the great job by
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the administration, that they have done in rallying to the russian invasion. at the same time, they are not as sweeping as the ukrainian government had urged. and the european certainly tried not to ruin their ability to produce energy supplies from russia in the middle of the winter. they get 40% of their gas from russia. the exclusion from swift, which is the major network in europe for financial transactions. that would be a major inconvenience for the russian banks. and it will throw a wrench in their ability to conduct their international trade, -- for at least a little while. but it appears, there seems to be some loopholes, and in a few weeks i feel the russians would find work-arounds to overcome those setbacks. the basis is much more serious. we are still waiting on the
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details. it seems likely that those sanctions will seriously cramped the russians ability to drawdown on there more than $6,000 in foreign reserves, to block the impact of the sanctions. and that, in turn, could lead to a major valuation of the rubble. it could -- and potentially seriously incompletion. all would cause significant discontent in russia. so putin will be paying attention to, it when he is rational knob to factor that into his decisions. it remains to be seen. >> so let's pull on that thread in a little bit. painting the picture of this around model, that i talked about as i came to you. the situation in iran, the con me in iran is a complete disaster. if you wanted to get tomatoes, groceries, anything you want off the shelf is incredibly expensive or unaffordable to the average iranian. everything is sky-high.
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the money is not where it needs to be. people cannot afford to live. they cannot afford to keep their lights on. they are crunched. they are in a bad situation. and they have been for quite some time because of international sanctions. and i am wondering if, the russian economy is able to -- i know the economy is much -- the sense of that kind of chaos, that kind of squeeze. if it does what is needed for vladimir putin to back off, if not from pressure from the russian people and or, pressure from higher ups inside russia, the wealthy. >> i think it is important to remember, russia is a much bigger economy than iran's was. and the swift bank exclusion was only one of many, many other sanctions that were placed on iran. we have not yet come close to
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the level of sanctions that we had applied to iran. nevertheless, i think that as the cost amount, putin will increasingly, be paying attention to how to get them out of the mess that he has created. obviously, his main goal is to decapitate the ukrainian government. and if that happens quickly, he will declare success and move on. and start working through these alternate channels to keep this on the afloat. and once we get postconflict, i wouldn't be surprised to see western solidarity begin to start to play. and for china to play a more active role, and helping out the russians. but to be clear, this is not going to be quick. this years a big chance that this is going to take a lot longer. and as the sanction apply, with coming back to russia with that
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russian soldiers, the de-escalation of russia, and russians across the world and the growing number of troops on russia's border, as we get into the spring, or the weather will make energy or less leverage on the europeans. and putin's buddies in power, the oligarchs, are also gonna feel the pinch. for example, the-year-olds and europe have a -- assets to the end of the earth. to -- as the time of this conflicts goes on, all of these pressures are going to combine to compel putin to look for an offer. at the same time, there is a risk for us in all of this. that it could move this to a different direction. as our measures begin to -- there is a risk that putin will start putting a pressure on us. and our allies. with slightly could hurled energy sales, cyberattacks, the
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things that we saw in our 2016 elections. pressure on politics, in poland and other methods. that could set the stage for return to diplomacy. but there is some risk for matt. >> ambassador stephen mull, we thank you. still ahead everybody, the washington response. congressman john berman, number of the house on services committee will join me live. but first, from tiktok to twitter stories, connected to the ukraine crisis maybe flooding your feet. how is this sparking information from the propaganda? we'll be right back. rmation from the propaganda? rmation from the propaganda? we'l manager) how do your clients know that? (naj) because as a fiduciary, it's our responsibility to always put clients first. (other money manager) so you do it because you have to? comfortable retirement. (other money manager) sounds like a big responsibility. (naj) one that we don't take lightly. it's why our fees are structured so we do better when our clients do better.
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fisher investments is clearly different. >> welcome back.
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so russia's war with ukraine also unleashing a wave of misinformation on social media. and that's on top of russia's disinformation and propaganda campaign to justify their invasion of a sovereign country. nbc's julie and ken has more. >> reporter: the way we observe
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war has forever changed, as the invasion of ukraine unfolds on social media, we're watching in realtime, and the palms of our hands, from a number of new sources -- >> bomb shelter -- >> reporter: to heroin or individual stories. but what we see is not always what it seems. >> there is a ton of misinformation and disinformation out there, specifically on tiktok. the worry is, of course, that the good stuff is mingling with the bad stuff. >> reporter: some users game algorithms to get likes, shares and make a profit. what may appear to be a new viral video may actually have nothing to do with an invasion. like this viral tiktok, posted just hours after the invasion began. it now has more than 20 million views. and shared on instagram, seven years ago. experts say, users would also be prepared for the onslaught of disinformation from russian leaders and state back media. >> the point, as always, propaganda and disinformation.
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it isn't to overwhelm and to make it so that's all you see. it is just to bestow doubt in your at about who that guy is and who the guy is. >> reporter: tackling the problem the dates back to 2016. meta, the company that operates facebook and instagram, says it's removing content that violates our community standards. tiktok says it's using quote, increased resources to remove violent content including misinformation. >> what is the most important will flock to watch out for? >> the number one thing i can ask and you want to do is just click through on the profile, and see what's going on there. if it looks too good to be true, if it looks extremely sensational, just do a little digging. because that's the difference here. the difference between everyone picking this up at face value is everybody coming together, and not sharing the bad stuff. >> reporter: battling disinformation, so the truth is what trends. julian kent, nbc news, los angeles. >> all right, thank you for
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that. coming up, new information from the frontlines inside ukraine, as the russian advance pushes on. plus, congressman john berman, member of the house services committee, with more on the washington response. we will be right back. washington response. washington response. we will be0x faster speeds, she can download a movie in minutes or a song in seconds. (mindy) yep! (vo) verizon is going ultra so you can do more. certified turbocharger, suspension and fuel injection.
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we're getting some breaking news just in. reports from the official kharkiv regional state administration saying russian military vehicles have in fact now entering the city there in kharkiv, as fighting breaks out in the city center. residents have been instructed to stay inside. this is coming just hours after dozens of people were evacuated, and one pronounced dead, inside the city of kharkiv today, after russian shelling hit a nine story residential building their. officials saying about 60 people were hiding from the chaos and the basement of that structure. this continued violence happening as the united nations confirms at least 240 civilian
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casualties, including 64 deaths, since the fighting erupted. those real numbers to be considerably higher. and then, these new and sweeping economic measures against russia, have now been announced by the united states and european nations, all agreeing to take aim at putin to remove from swift, a service that facilitates global transactions among thousands of financial institutions. and a central bank. those kicked off a system will have to use a telephone, or a fax machine, to send cash, internationally, helping to turn russia into a global and economic financial pariah. according to a senior white house official. for more on how washington is responding to the ukraine, i want to bring congressman john. member of the house on services committee. congressman, welcome. you and i spoke actually last weekend, when you are still in brussels, and we spoke a lot about the unity that we were saying with nato, especially surrounding their unity against
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any aggression coming from vladimir putin. and we talked about whether or not he would actually invade ukraine. and here we are, one week later, and the throws, it seems that a war between russia and ukraine. and i can't help but think about that how the world has been captivated by president for volodymyr zelenskyy who has been giving in and out, but has chosen to stay, armed, and fight, for his people and for his country's freedom. you actually spoke with him, i believe, six months or so, ago. what you make of it? with him, i where making of this, an extraordinary individual who is really taking up the in leadership rains in this country. with ukrainians, an example of courage, an example of wisdom. and also a willingness to fight. i believe that the rest of the ukrainian population do not want to be a satellite of the
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soviet union, they want their own freedom. they are willing to fight for it. and they now have a leader who they are willing to get behind. and carry out the fighting. i hope you're wrong, i hope that the -- you're wrong about the russian tanks and vehicles being in the center of kyiv. but even if they are, this fight is far from over. the u.s. government, together with the nato governments, are continuing to supply military equipment to the ukrainian army. and perhaps later, two insurgents that are operating in ukraine. >> i want to be clear here, and i know the city name sound alike. but the news that we were getting, is that there is fighting happening in the city in kharkiv. not in kyiv. just a few miles away. >> good! >> that would've been a
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different story. but nonetheless, still traumatic for residents from that city as well. and the fighting continues happening on the ground. >> go ahead go. >> thank you for the correction. i cannot tell you how delighted i am to be brought to wear those russian tanks where. when >> it comes to kyiv, right, it seems as if all the intelligence was pointed to the fact that if moscow would invade ukraine, they would take the capital city within 48 hours. that has not happened. and it seems as if ukrainian forces have held off the russian military up until now. we have heard abe a isolated vladimir putin. one who has been isolated for two years since the pandemic, and even more now. since the invasion.
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how do you think the russian president is reacting now? to something that was gonna be an easy fight? >> clearly putin, has created a situation where he has become an international pariah. most every nation in the world, except perhaps to now, that would be china and india, have lined up. have lined up in support of the ukrainian people fighting for their continued independence. if putin is on -- really isolated. he was isolated, you said because of covid. he is acting in a very very strange way. a way that does not make any sense to the rest of us. perhaps in his own mind, he is seeing himself as being, and azar. or maybe sees himself as i do not know, stalin.
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he is going to recreate the soviet empire. in any case, he is making very little common sense. and it will not be too long before i believe, the russian people will be back in the streets in a much larger demonstration than we have already seen. in opposition to the wire. and that can very quickly morph into opposition to proving himself. >> how do you expect these sanctions to land? get these sanctions that they have already issued against the central bank, against russia. i know now the restrictions against the swift banking system as well. the idea being to squeeze the russian economy. how do you think the land in moscow, will it make vladimir putin back off? will it work? >> the sanctions were never designed to work immediately. but now, the way in which the
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sanctions have been put together. first of all, the biden administration has been very patient, or impatiently patient, and lining up support of the rest of the world. with that in place, shutting down the russian bank's first, so that they did not have access, and then shutting off their ability to communicate, well significantly, impact the russian a crown me much sooner than most people think. it may, very well be that most people think that the access to atm machines, banks who would be able to do domestic as well as international exchanges, may not be available. in addition to that, it will become pretty clear that the russian economy is going to be slowed down. and slowly, slowly strangled. that slowness, maybe much faster than everybody anticipated. i would hope it is. that the message gets to putin right away, that it is not just
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your bodies, the oligarchs, who are gonna have their yachts, and their jets, and ritzy apartments, and whoever that may be around the world shut down. and their wives, girlfriends, and other hangar aunts would not be able to travel along with them. so those folks, are gonna be putting pressure on putin. saying, oh my god, do you know what you've done to us? you shut us down. you shut down the major international enterprises in russia. that is going to very quickly come down upon people. and people are gonna be back in the streets. i think this is going to happen. when? i cannot say. but the sure that this is going to be part of the end of putin's war, and the end of putin's regime. >> democratic congressman, john garamendi of california, we thank you for joining us this
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evening. our coverage of russia's attack on ukraine continues after very quick break. you are watching msnbc. quick break. you are or there... start here. walgreens makes it easy to stay protected wherever you go. schedule your free covid-19 booster today. (vo) verizon is going ultra!
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with 5g ultra wideband in many more cities. mindy! with up to 10x faster speeds, she can download a movie in minutes or a song in seconds. (mindy) yep! (vo) verizon is going ultra so you can do more. welcome back, everybody.
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a short time ago, i spoke with ukrainian citizen oksana -- . who is recording refugee
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support efforts, as the number of people who need it skyrockets. take a look at the situation. >> the situation is unprecedented, because a number of the refugees that is expected is much higher than predicted before. because putin started a large-scale invasion. but you know, that he also is an actual ukrainian -- on western ukraine. that was considered to be the safe this location of ukraine. so people are going to neighboring countries. we are not hearing poland, i must tell you frankly that polish people and polish government have been amazingly supportive. we have hundreds of people who are ready to cost ukrainian refugees for free. we have hundreds of thousands of people ready to come to the border to pick up the families.
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and pick up the people. so we have here, not only violent here organizations who know how to work with refugees, but we have here, initial communities who are trying to get out in order to support ukrainians, and the population. the government has established a special coordination center for that, and poland is becoming much more than one country. but we have a hub of support from all of europe. and in all of the action world. for putin and it is logistical to breathe some help to ukraine. but also, poland is now costing some poulin -- some things are being put into place, but the feeling, and the amazing supports that we feel, that we have here is unprecedented. >> we see so much so --
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a motion from people across the border. some young children coming with their mothers, their fathers, being left behind. to have to fight the russians. is there some emotional support for these refugees right now? is the government helping to provide that? >> now, all of the systems are being established. we have the first stage support that should be given, so we meet the people, bring them to the occasions, find safety locations for them, fine new house for them. and then the next stage, working with the emotions and be -- giving them everything they need. because people are going without, with nothing. so with one back, or just generally having their children. so everything has to be provided for the people here. and then the second stages of
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emotional support, and then the stations of how they can be integrated, what they can do here? that is the next stage should be done. generally, now in the general as for the nation's, there are about 5 million refugees if the situation continues that way. and russia will continue full scale invasion using all of their weapons, around 5 million people are expected to become refugees. in ukraine. but, i am so must tell you -- i must tell you, frankly, that you are saying that families are being separated. i must tell you that a lot of men are volunteering to protect their country. yesterday, around 10,000 ukrainians left. men. from poland to ukraine. voluntarily, to continue the battle. so, you must understand that we
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never, ever -- maybe the last time it was in the second world war. expected that we would be in the situation. so the whole atmosphere here in ukraine is totally different. and we do explain that it is a fight for our country. for putin, and for our lives. >> coming up everybody, the economics of war. we are going to dive into how russians invasion could have global consequences. you are watching msnbc live, breaking coverage coming up. breaking coverage coming up. wherever you go. schedule your free covid-19 booster today.
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(vo) verizon is going ultra! with 5g ultra wideband in many more cities. mindy! with up to 10x faster speeds, she can download a movie in minutes or a song in seconds. (mindy) yep! (vo) verizon is going ultra so you can do more. before you go there, or there... start here. walgreens makes it easy to stay protected wherever you go. schedule your free covid-19 booster today. >> welcome back.
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countries across the world are standing in solidarity with ukraine right now, as they continue to fight against a russian invasion. and that includes infant vigil u.s. states and small businesses. multiple governors and states like you are utah, ohio, virginia and texas are cracking down on sales of russian products. many now -- russian liquors, ordered it
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removed from cells until the invasion ceases. the president has said in clear terms, any arm conflict between the united states and russia would result in a world war. he -- put him in the pocket with sanctions. that with that, different problems have cropped up. so, what is does this all mean for the global economy and the economy here at home? cnbc senior analyst and commentator ryan sons is here. ron, it's great to talk to you. thanks for staying up with us. we really appreciate it. i think a lot of folks are worried about how this is going to affect us, right? we're seeing this incredible tragedy happening overseas. we have talked about how the sanctions leveled against russia, moscow, good really crunch their economy. could squeeze their economy. how the europeans could be affected as well. but there's a real trickle effect to here in the united states. and the president has warned of this. talk about how we may experience that here in the u.s..
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i >> think the principle we would be in higher prices at the gasoline pump. oil obviously is one of, if not the biggest export from russia. and of course, europe relies on it more heavily than we in the united states do. we have a handful of outlets are affiliated like lukoil stations and things like that. that carry russian crude. most of the time they don't. but we import very little of our crude oil another journey products from russia. to put it all in perspective, the size of russia's economy is equal to that of the new york state. they have 125 million more people. europe will be hit much more impact fully by the sanctions if the energy exports of russia get cut off. i think the bigger issue for russia itself is it is completely isolated economically, they could bear some very, very serious pain. the likes of which we have not seen in modern times. >> talk to me about economic warfare, because you are a
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piece about the advent of economic warfare. how this could be a new horizon. that we're seeing emerge from all of this. expand on that for me. >> it's always been part and parcel of a prior war. but as pro president biden suggested, if we's face off with russian troops on a battlefield some we're, there could always be that temptation to use a tactical nuclear weapon, and that would obviously elevate a conflict to unthinkable levels. so, as we're seeing now, the sanctions that are being put in place on russia -- and listen, we did this to japan prior to world war ii and we've done it during a period -- but the types of sanctions that are being levied right now, particularly those being leveled at russia's central bank, which is something not been done before, they're trying to freeze russia's assets. not only externally for those russian citizens who have, let's see, expensive apartments in new york, london, the south of france. or they have yachts or artwork
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and things like that. they're trying to cripple rushes and troll bank. which would bring its economy to its knees. and they don't have to go much further if. japan joins in in this so-called swift system, which is a message sending misses mechanism for financial transfers, they could cripple russia's economy in just a minute. >> can we talk about these restrictions on the swift banking system? i want to expand on this more, because we know obviously there was apprehension. especially from the eu when it came to this. because of the fact that they are so dependent on russian oil. and russian energy. and how this will completely effect that. how do you foresee this affecting the european economy? and if in fact this could feasibly create an energy crisis if that hole is not filled that the russians will not be able to provide? >> yes, it's possible the whole will not be filled, because
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there's not 5 million barrels a day in spare capacity of oil production. and certainly, your bright now is also reliant on russian natural gas. even well that nord stream 2 pipeline is not operational, they still by about 30% of their gas for heating and cooling from russia. so, europe could take a big hit in the form of an angie shark. and then the destruction of the swift also disrupts the ability of german companies, european companies to a, for some of their products. i believe if i'm reading this correctly, they're trying to target this as much at russia as possible, without disrupting the european payment system by closing russia out of. it so, everyone is being very, very colorful with this, because they don't want some sort of boomerang effect that once you block russia from access to swift, it would hurt european companies or european countries and their efforts to move money internationally. >> i guess, i wonder if this is only the beginning, right?
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this is sometimes kind of a tiered sanction system. so, if vladimir putin continues to advance into ukraine, there's going to be have to other penalties there. and it could be a total black out of the swift system, which could obviously affect you up in a much bigger we as well. do you think about at all how we are in a much different situation now than we have been in other situations when we had leveled sanctions against countries like iran, for instance. because of the fact because we were calling our way out of this pandemic hole. >> yes, and i think again, for us it swings back to a spike in energy crisis that would zap consumer confidence. and also, disposable income. if you go back to 2008, oil prices were $147 a barrel. about $50, $55 above where they are today. and gasoline was considerably more expensive. so, to a certain extent, it will have that much of a
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blowback effect on us. what they're really trying to do with the sanctions is cripple the russian economy and make it impossible, in particular, for the oligarchs, the people around vladimir putin and vladimir putin himself, to access any of their assets, including those of the central bank. the central bank has over 600 billion dollars in foreign exchange reserves and gold. they want to be able to make it so the central bank can't function. and that would just rip the russian economy to pieces, if that were to happen. >> ron isana, as always, really analysis when it comes the economy. thank you for staying up for us. >> thanks for having me. >> that wraps up for this hour of msnbc. my colleague richard louis picks things up after very quick break. up after very quick break.
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>> very good morning. i'm richard louis. it is 9 am i right now in ukraine as the country enters its fourth day of invasion by russian troops. we are just learning in the last hour, russian military vehicles have entered the city of kharkiv. and that fighting is going on this city center. that's according to kharkiv officials who are now instructing residents to stay inside. just last night, spending video reportedly showing a massive gas explosion in the eastern cities as the battle with russian troops intensified overnight. then we take it to the south. an announcement from the mayor of the city of -- that the city is now under russian control. the development is notable, given that a hydroelectric power plant is housed there. yet, the uk defense ministry saying, but russia


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