tv Yasmin Vossoughian Reports MSNBC April 3, 2022 1:00pm-2:00pm PDT
welcome back, everybody. i'm yasmin vossoughian. we have got a lot coming up in the hour ahead. thanks for sticking with me. more on that horrific scene coming out of the suburbs of kyiv in the town of bucha. people forced to drive around bodies. littering the street, innocent civilians murdered and left behind by retreating russian troops. >> corpses of executed people still lying in the street in bucha. their hands are tied behind their back with white civilian rags. their were shot in the back of their heads. you can imagine what kind of
lawlessness they perpetrated here. >> and in a moment i'm going to talk to ukraine parliament member kira rudik who has been to bucha and seen the carnage first-hand. and while russian troops leave the area of kyiv, they continue to pound other areas of the country. a new missile strike in the southern city of odesa. we'll have the latest on the russian troop movements. we're also following other breaking news. a mass shooting here in the united states on the streets of california's capital. at least six dead in sacramento and a gunman still on the loose. a live report on that coming up. and a major political story that we're following. growing pressure on the january 6th committee to subpoena ginni thomas, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas, over her extreme texts about overturning the 2020 election. coming up shortly, i'm going to talk to january 6th committee member representative low lofgren about what they plan to do. we want to begin, though, with ukraine.
and the sheer horror and inhumanity that we're seeing coming out of the ukrainian town of bucha. a warning once again that the images that you are about to see, they are graphic and they are incredibly disturbing. but we feel it's important to show them because this is the impact of vladimir putin's war on the innocent people of ukraine. civilians from the once peaceful commuter town about 20 miles from kyiv massacred. horrific footage capturing the bodies of innocent people strewn across the streets and flown off their bikes as russian troops retruth from the area, scratching the surface of just how barbaric this war, this invasion by russian troops is. nbc's ali arouzi is on the ground for us in lviv. good to talk to you once again. we know both the mayor of bucha as well as president zelenskyy, they have been speaking out in the wake of so many of these images coming out of that town. walk us through what else is
coming to light this hour. >> hi, yasmin. as we have been talking for weeks, the ukrainians have put up a fierce resistance of kyiv and its suburbs. they finally pushed the russians back into a retreat. but the russians have left a scene of utter carnage and devastation. unspeakable crimes against civilians in their own city. the streets of bucha are lined with burnt out tanks, the pavements are strewn with dead bodies. some in the middle of the war. men, women, the mayor says even a teenager has been killed there. as you mentioned, people being buried in mass graves there because of the carnage that had gone on there. the mayor also said at least 20 people in bucha had been executed with a bullet in the back of their heads. some of them with their hands tied behind their backs.
unbelievable scenes we're seeing in the 21st century. something no human being should have to suffer or see. and there are also some extraordinary graphic accounts from the residents of bucha. let's take a listen to what a couple of them had to say. >> those people were just walking, and they shot them without any reason, bang. in the next neighborhood, it was even worse. they would shoot without asking any questions. >> he went to get some food when the russians started shooting. they hit him a bit above the hill, crushing the bone, and he fell down. the shooter shouted, don't scream or i will shoot, and they turned away, thenthy shot off his left leg completely. then they shot him all over the chest. another shot went slightly below the temple. it was a controlled shot to the head. >> these are just horrifying accounts which really do sound like war crimes. this is not what an army does. these are what gangsters do.
and every account you hear coming out of there is one is worse than the other. but the russians are denying it. they say that they didn't target civilians. they say that these videos have all been faked and these accounts are not real. and they even said that they delivered hundreds of tons of humanitarian aid to these areas. obviously, ukrainians are vociferously denying these accounts. the videos that we're seeing, the accounts that we're hearing paint a very different picture of the massacre that just took place in bucha. it's very hard for everybody to watch. the russians now want to call an emergency meeting of the security council tomorrow. it boggles the mind what they want to say in that meeting or how they want to justify what happened in bucha. >> ironically, when you and i were on the air together yesterday, there was this news emerging of a possible draft of a peace treaty, and a possible
meeting between zelenskyy and putin, because of this draft to subsequently end this war. and there was kind of some rumblings on the edges that something had happened in bucha. and people were seeing these atrocities as they were going into the town and surveying the damage. so as we now are 24 hours later, and we know what has happened, as we see these images and are hearing these accounts from people in that city, where do those peace talks stand? >> well, yasmin, the foreign minister spoke earlier, and he compared what had happened in bucha, worse than the crimes that isis has committed. he said that this has complicated the peace talks. but he says that they have defeated the russians on the ground here, and now they have to defeat them diplomatically. so even though he says the peace talks are going to be incredibly hard with what happened in
bucha, that they have to press ahead with it and try and change putin's mind and bring this war to an end. >> as always, my friend, thank you. and please do stay safe as you report there from lviv. >> so for more on the atrocities in bucha we're seeing, i want to bring in kira rudik, a member of the ukrainian parliament who visited the region today. thank you so much for joining us on this. i cannot imagine what you have seen over the last 12 hours or so. take me there. what was your experience like? >> hello, thank you so much for having me. so what i have seen, i just cannot accept. we have seen people, dead bodies on the sides of the road. we have seen the mass graves. with women and children and it was like about 300 people in the mass grave. we have seen people on the street, left there and some
bodies, they tried to burn them. we have talked to people who were survivors, who are saying that there's almost no children left and that we shouldn't be bringing in the formulas because there's almost no children left. people died of hunger. people died of bullets. people died because they were burned, and their homes were destroyed by the missiles. so what happened there is a total carnage. it's a massacre, and i went there to this darkness to make sure that there will be no chance for russians to say they were not there, and they didn't commit it. i hope one day there will be a trial and i will be able to witness there, to say what i have seen. to show the proof that these crimes, they happened here. there is something that cannot just go through my mind. these people, they were sitting in their basements. they were not opposing russians. they were not even coming with
ukrainian flags. they were just living there. so they came in, and they just shot and killed them. they destroyed them for no reason. for no particular reason. they raped women and burned them alive. and we found their bodies. they killed children because just they wanted to. and these are the crimes that you cannot take inside, but you definitely cannot forget and cannot accept. and cannot forgive. we will create a list of all the russian soldiers because i want to amplify that it was not putin who was killing the people. it was not putin who was tying their hands behind their backs before shooting them. it was russian soldiers, russian people who came in and who are creating this absolute destruction there. like right here, right in the outskirts. you know what bucha is. it's a peaceful place where when you turn 35, you okay, i will
move there to raise my children. it's a peaceful outskirts where people were raising their children. and right now, they're all dead, and this is just not going into my mind. and i cannot imagine what happens in the other occupied territories. what happened in mariupol, we will only have to see that. and we will have a list of all the soldiers who were there, who executed that. and we will find each and every of them, and we will have our justice, because these things, they cannot be left unjust. cannot. because it's 21st century, and it's central of yourm, and these massacres, this carnage cannot be happening but it is happening. and right now, every single leader of the world who is saying oh, there are two points of view to every story or something, they need to see that. they need to see the videos. they need to see the pictures. they need to see the deaths and destruction for no reason. just because we exist. and there is a word for this.
this word is genocide. and this is what is happening to my people. this is what is happening to my country right now. >> kira, tell me about vera, the woman you treated, about the elderly couple. >> they were standing in their destroyed home. they were one of the people, you know, the military are saying do not return back right now. there are still mines everywhere, but people definitely do return. and just to see like what happened with their homes, and so there's this old couple with a woman crying and a man standing near her, and their house was almost destroyed. and the man was saying, vera, look, there are holes in our walls, but the window is also a hole in the wall. so we will rebuild it. i promise you, vera, we will rebuild. do not cry. and this idea of finding the words to support, it's also so
touching and so unprecedented. and the rage that i feel right now for all the crimes, i also feel a lot of hope. hope for my people to be able to rebuild it. >> where are you getting that hope from amidst all of the atrocities you're seeing? where are you pulling it from right now? >> from these -- from the people i see who survived all of it. from the people who were hiding and helping their neighbors. you know, there was this woman who fled from mariupol the other day, and she was having four children with her. one was hers. another was her sister, the third she was given at the refugee bus by a woman that she doesn't know. and the fourth child was a child she found near the dead bodies of his parents. so she took all of the four children and fled with them to poland right now. she didn't complain.
she said i will raise all of them. it's no problem to me. i will be raising them the way that they wouldn't have to know this disaster. so we all need to stand up. we all need to fight russians. we all need to fight this death, this darkness, this pure evil to be able to rebuild our country, to be able to one day say we don't have to be afraid anymore. we will be free, as we are right now, and we will be not afraid that there will be a neighbor who once destroyed just because we exist. just for the sake of us not to exist. >> kira rudik, i know that it's incredibly hard to recount what you saw and what you experienced in your country. just miles away from where you are right now. but i thank you for doing that. and for allowing the world in to the atrocities of the russian government, of vladimir putin, and of the russian army in this
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disappeared and high profile witnesses still refusing to testify. adding to it all, a justice department so far not moving forward with the committee's criminal referrals. here's what adam schiff told jonathan capehart this morning on msnbc. >> i think the justice department is erring on the side of not wanting to create controversy by investigating those that may have committed crimes, but nonetheless, were high up in the last administration. i just don't think that's tenable if there's evidence of crime, it needs to be investigated regardless of who it is. >> and it appears the president shares the same sentiment. "the new york times" reporting, quote, as recently as late last year, president biden confided he believed president trump was a threat to democracy and should be prosecuted. we're joined by zoe lofgren of california. thank you for joining us. we appreciate it. before we get into the january 6th investigation specifically the wife of justice thomas, i want to talk first a little bit
about what we're seeing in ukraine. i'm sure you have seen some of the atrocious images coming out of bucha. with people with their hands behind their backs, shot execution style, mass graves, some are reporting women and children inside those graves. you just heard my last guest i'm sure talking about the fact this is genocide. these are in fact war crimes. carried out by russian military and russian president vladimir putin. what more does the united states need to do? >> well, we need to continue to arm the ukrainians and we need to pledge with others in the civilized world that these monsters will be held to account. as the parliamentarian said, we need to get the names. it's obviously not just putin. it was putin's decision to go to war. but these horrifying murders and
rapes, that was done by individual soldiers from russia. and we need to hold them to account. it's really disgusting. >> how in fact does the united states hold these people to account when russians won't even admit it was carried out? >> well, this war will eventually end. and we will have an opportunity, the civilized world, to confront russia for their lack of civilization. we, you know, the international court does not self-enforce, but we will continue with our sanctions. we will continue to pursue those who have engaged in this unbelievable misconduct and murder. and we have got to continue to get these weapons to the ukrainians promptly, and i'm assured from the briefings i have had, that is happening.
and they are putting those weapons to good effect. >> all right, let's talk about the january 6th investigation. specifically of course the wife of justice thomas, ginni thomas. we have heard extensively obviously now about the relationship that she had with former president donald trump, the visits that she made periodically to the oval office. the recommendations that she made when it came to the hiring and firing inside the white house. and of course, now seeing the conflict of interest possible when it comes to justice clarence thomas himself, talking first about ginni thomas, his wife, will she be subpoenaed and/or asked to come in for an interview by the committee? >> well, i think this has been hyped quite a bit out in the press. she had, we know, text messages have been put in the public arena. and she was part of a group that was far down a conspiratorial
rabbit hole. that doesn't make her the most important witness by any means. and so we'll pursue testimony from people who will give us more information to get to the truth. it may include her, but she's far from the most important witness we're thinking about talking to. >> so from what i'm hearing from you is that it's not necessarily likely that she's going to be called in for an interview, not seeing her as necessarily important. go ahead. >> whether she will or won't, i can't say at this point, but we'll call in whoever we need to to get the truth. it's just that, you know, the fact that she went down a conspiracy rabbit hole and just said some really bizarre things in her texts doesn't make her necessarily an important figure in the january 6th plot. now, you know, we'll pursue
anything we need to, and the fact that her husband is a justice obviously, people have raised issues about what he should or shouldn't do. i'll just note this, recusal is not up to the congress of the president. it's up to the justices. >> i want to get your opinion on that, because according to a statute that was created after an investigation into then justice douglas back in 1970, it read this, and i quote, one should recuse themselves in the federal court if he knows that he or his spouse has an interest that could substantially be affected by the outcome of the proceeding, based off this statute, do you believe justice thomas should in fact -- >> the statute doesn't apply to the supreme court, and there's legislation -- >> no, but the federal events, yes. >> the standard for recusal is basically this for the justices. if they have a conflict of interest or there would be an appearance of a conflict of
interest then they should recuse. each justice needs to make that determination. and i think many feel at least on an appearance basis this is something the court ought to consider. but that's, as i say, it's not up to the congress. it's not up to the president. it's up to the justices. and the steps they need to take are to preserve the integrity of the court so the american people can trust their impartiality. so i am hoping that the justices take that standard to heart. it's not new. and apply it to every circumstance so that we can have confidence in the supreme court. >> are you willing to say on the record that the justice should recuse himself from anything related to january 6th that comes to the supreme court? >> you know, i have avoided getting into that fight. we have got people popping off. he should, he shouldn't. it's not up to me, up to the court. >> got it. talk to me about the jared kushner testimony from thursday. i know he sat for six hours or so. i knowia can't talk about the
details of that. we know there was a text message exchange between mark meadows and ginni thomas referring to a jared. there was no confirmation as to whether that was jared kushner. did the committee learn that was jared kushner? can you disclose that? >> we don't go into the testimony unless there's a vote of the committee to release it, and that has not yet occurred. but you can imagine, you have a discussion that goes on for multiple hours and there's a lot of content. we appreciate that he came in and spent a whole day with our lawyers answering the questions that he could remember the answers to. and you know, the focus has been on the sort of the scofflaws, of people who violated the law and refused to come in. we have 600, 700 people who have come in to the committee and answered questions. and it has helped us piece together a picture of not only
the 6th of january but the steps leading up to the 6th that's important to know. >> two things i want to touch on. i do appreciate you joining me on this sunday afternoon. i know it's tough i'm sure in beautiful california. first and foremost is of course the daughter of the former president, ivanka trump, will she be coming in for voluntary testimony when it comes to the january 6th committee, and are you confident you're going to be seeing public testimony come next month? >> well, as has been known, we released a letter. we did ask her to come in to meet with the committee. and i have hopes that that will occur. certainly, she has not refused. and we are working towards forward with the idea that she will. you know, we haven't set a date for the hearings. the chairman has indicated we expect them in the spring. so the date has not been set and we may have more than one set of
hearings as well to lay out what we found. so that's what we know so far. >> representative zoe lofgren, get out and enjoy that beautiful california weather. always sunny and about 72 degrees, if i remember correctly. big difference to what we're experiencing out here. thank you. great to see you. a pleasure. >> still ahead, an in depth look at the devastation seen in ukrainian towns outside the capital city of kyiv as russian forces retreated. how can a peace process move forward amid the reality of the innocent bodies lying in the street. also following breaking news out of california. at least six people killed in a mass shooting. the latest in a live report coming up next. like how i customized this scarf? check out this backpack i made for marco. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ ♪♪
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dozens of corpses lining the streets that russian troops claimed to liberate. multiple residents have reported war crimes such as rape and summary executions against innocent civilians. earlier today, the mayor of bucha said ukrainian troops were forced to fill mass graves with bodies of nearly 300 men, women, and kids. all executed, he said, by russian forces. these atrocities now drawing accusations of genocide from so many ukrainians including kira rudik, a member of ukrainian parliament who i spoke with moments ago. >> these things, they cannot be left unjust. cannot. because the 21st century, and it's central of europe and these massacres, these carnage cannot be happening, but it is happening. and right now, every single leader of the world who is saying oe, there are two points of view to every story or something, they need to see this. they need to see the videos, they need to see the pictures. they need to see the death and
destruction for no reason. just because we exist. and there is a word for this. this word is genocide. >> i want to bring in william taylor, former u.s. ambassador to ukraine and vice president for russia and europe at the u.s. institute for peace. ambassador, as always, thank you for joining us. your reaction to what we're seeing coming out of bucha and what you heard from kira. >> yasmin, it's beyond belief. beyond words. the parliamentarian is exactly right. this is the work of ma this is not animal. this is monstrous. absolutely re outraged, enraged. i have talked to ukrainians as well. yasmin, this further, if it's possible to ratchet up the intensity of the ukrainian demands, the ukrainian desire,
the ukrainian determineitation to win this war, this does it. it completely over -- it just demonstrates what has to happen. putin has to lose. it is just so clear that the ukrainians have to win. and that means that we need to support them. we need to support them with everything that they can possibly use. and we have to squeeze the russians with every sanction that we have got. this just demonstrates the moral clarity, yasmin, of this war. the moral clarity. she's right. there are not two sides to this story. there are not two sides. this is monstrous. >> let's get into what nato and the united states in fact needs to do. as you just said. you mentioned the sanctions. we had talked extensively about sanctions. president biden has repeatedly said the red line is essentially chemical weapons. we have not seen those as of yet
but this is being called a genocide. these are being called war crimes. and they look like them, ambassador. is this the new line? should this be the new line? how else does the united states, should nato forces now get involved? >> nato forces of course are involved. ire not involved in ukraine. we're doing everything shy of being involved in ukraine. that is we're providing the weapons that we can. yasmin, there may be more weapons though that we can provide. we need to move up into the heavy weapons category. we need to provide armored vehicles. we need to provide the heavy duty surface to air missiles at higher range. we need to provide the missiles that go from shore to ship. there are additional heavier, stronger, higher weapons that need to be provided to the
ukrainians so they win. that has to happen. in order to prosecute war crimes, in order to -- >> what about the post soviet era planes, ambassador? >> i would say yes. i would say absolutely yes. i would say that they can be dismantled and taken across the border, just like javelins and armored vehicles and others can be taken across the border, there's no reason why not. >> we have heard reporting and i mentioned this earlier on in the show of vladimir putin being isolated. he's not being told the realities on the ground. he's not being told the realities of what's happening with the russian army, of what's happening with sanctions inside russia as well. do you believe he's seeing these images, and if in fact he is, does vladimir putin see this as a win? >> no one knows what's in his head. he and all the chain of command are demonstrating they are
monsters. they are war criminals. again, the top to the bottom, from him all the way down to those soldiers who perpetrated these crimes. who knows what's in his head? who knows what's in his mind? this cannot be in any way a victory. he will lose. he will lose, yasmin. this just further guarantees that he will lose. and this seals the deal. >> and how do you make peace with that, ambassador? how does one move forward, how do the ukrainians move forward with a peace treaty essentially with a possibility of russian president vladimir putin remaining in power, which is all but certain, it seems, at this point. not knowing that he may very well do this again. >> yasmin, ukrainians, americans, europeans, we don't say -- we're not going to say when and how putin will leave. the russians will say that. the russians will determine
that. either the russians in the street or the russians right around him. they will make that determination. however, you asked the right question. how can you negotiate with people like that? you can't. you must win. you must win on the battlefield. and ukrainians are doing very well on the battlefield. ukrainians are pushing back the russians in ways that they're surprising i'm sure the russians. that's what needs to happen, and that's why we need, again, just what we were talking about, more weapons, heavier weapons, and more sanctions. >> ambassador bill taylor, as always, we thank you for joining us on this sunday afternoon. >> up next, everybody, an update on the deadly mass shooting in sacramento, california, that left at least six people dead. >> my son has a wife. he has children. all that. and all that's gone because somebody wanted to pull out a gun and spray everybody coming out of the club. that's not right. picking them off like they're birds or something. you know what i'm saying? it's awful.
>> the city's police chief now issuing a public plea for help to identify possible suspects. nbc's scott cohn is in sacramento with the latest after a very quick break. my a1c stayed here, it needed to be here. ruby's a1c is down with rybelsus®. my a1c wasn't at goal, now i'm down with rybelsus®. mom's a1c is down with rybelsus®. (♪ ♪) in a clinical study, once-daily rybelsus® significantly lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill. rybelsus® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't take rybelsus® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop rybelsus® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. tell your provider about vision problems or changes. taking rybelsus® with a sulfonylurea or insulin increases low blood sugar risk. side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration,
asya agulnik md: st. jude was founded with an understanding that no child should die in the dawn of life. to work with many partners all over the world, nothing stops in the way of us achieving that mission, not even war. marta salek md: when there is a need, people stand up and do what is right and ensure that they restart medical therapy
as quickly as possible. carlos rodriguez-galindo md: any child suffering today of cancer is our responsibility. welcome back, everybody. more now on that breaking news out of sacramento. an early morning shooting has left six people dead and 12 others hurt in downtown sacramento where the scene remains active right now. nbc's scott cohn is there for us and following the story and any developments there. we spoken at the end of the last hour, of course, there hasn't been necessarily a lot of updates. it seems like they're still trying to gather more information than they actually have. talk us through anything new that we know right about now. >> yasmin, we're coming up now on 12 hours after this incident unfolded in the wee hours of this morning. and we know very little at this point about a suspect or suspects. in fact, sacramento police are
appealing to the public for help, particularly interested in any sort of video that was taken. there is some that has already emerged on social media, which appears to show some sort of an altercation near the intersection of 10th and k street, which is about a block from where i am. police say they don't know whether that is related to what happened, but shortly into that, you hear the sounds of gunfire. it's rapid gunfire. suggesting this is a semiautomatic weapon or weapons. police say they have recovered at least one firearm from the scene. before the shooting ended, they say six people were killed, another 12 people wounded. their injuries in varying degrees. some being treated at local hospitals. a short time ago, the city's mayor, darryl steinberg, held a news conference to decry what he calls the epidemic of gun violence. >> let us be honest, this is a sickness. the fact that we accept the idea that people can have ready
access to assault weapons, to weapons of destruction, and can indiscriminately use them however and wherever they want, that is not just an exception. it happens far too often. it is a sickness in our culture. and we must do everything we can to heal that sickness. >> the mayor suggested but did not confirm that this may have been gang related and that there was a vehicle involved, but again, he did not have official information and the police have been somewhat tight lipped about what has happened. you can see what is still a crime scene being processed, dozens of markers that appear to show shell casings which would suggest there were many, many shots fired, and of course, tragic, tragic results. yasmin. >> scott cohn for us, thank you. good to see you. >> coming up, everybody, former
president trump can't help but tout his good relationship with russian president vladimir putin. claiming the country's invasion of ukraine would not have happened on his watch. our political panel weighs in next. >> this invasion of ukraine would never have happened if i was in the white house. not even a chance. would have never happened. ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things.
welcome back. so on a day where we are seeing quite possibly the worst, most horrific images emerging out of ukraine, an all-out assault and massacre of innocent people at the hands of vladimir putin, we have former president donald trump on stage during his rally last night in michigan once again celebrating his relationship with the russian president, his supporters wildly cheering him on, as the true magnitude of putin's atrocities inside ukraine are playing out in real time on all of our tv screens. >> i knew putin very well. you know, they say oh, he knows putin. he knows putin. oh. that's a good thing, not a bad thing. i know kim jong-un. i know president xi of china. and you know what, we had no conflict. remember? >> want to bring in my panel, matthew dowd, founder of country over party, and rick wilson as
well. gop strategist and cofounder of the lincoln project. okay. matthew, let's get into this first. we have been seeing these atrasties play out everywhere. we're watching it on our tv screens, as i have just been covering over the last two hours, pig picking up your phone, seeing it, the emotion coming from theukrainians. these people executed. hands behind their backs. when is enough enough? when will republicans, whether they support him or not, stand up and say no more? >> i don't think you're going to
change the minds of 30% of the country who just laps this up no matter what. i actually feel a bit sad for them, honestly, because they have been lied to. donald trump has no respect for his voters and all those people sitting behind him. he has no respect for them. if somebody is willing to lie to you and say these things, they don't care about you. they don't care about what's going on in your life. at this point in time, i don't think it's going to ever change that 30% of the country which is the base of the republican party today.
>> i can't help but think about this. a few seconds ago, i was speaking to a correspondent on the ground in ukraine and they mentioned the russians are saying this didn't happen. this is fake news. these images aren't real. >> of course. >> and i wonder if there are americans that feel the the sam way. i wonder -- >> of course there are. >> i wonder if there are people in this country who voted for donald trump who went to the rally in michigan and cheered him on who feel the same way. >> of course there are. yasmin, if you scratch the bare surface of the comment section of any of these right wing blogs or news sites, you will find them saying things like this is a false flag set up by george soros of the world economic forum so the new world order agenda can be pursued. this is all fake. it's all a lie. you know, this is trump and putin, you know, the deep states trying to take revenge on trump and putin.
it's a disgusting dark fantasy world. it exists in the meaningful republican party. donald trump didn't warn us he was a putin fan but invasion started and said this is genius. no, it's not genius. it's genocide. >> i mean, this is coming off a week in which donald trump asked vladimir putin for dirt on hunter biden. you look at the numbers when it comes to the war in ukraine. americans care about ukrainians, right? they care about what is happening to these ukrainians at the end of the day. a large majority, a large swath does. i wonder if this will have any effect going into the mid terms on the gop and those who stand behind donald trump. >> i mean, you're right. i mean, 80% of the country is behind what we're doing in ukraine. 90 something percent of the country has an unfavorable view
of vladimir putin. like a case in criminal court, because we know alcapon committed these crimes, you have to prosecute the case against him. the only way that works is obviously us in the media and political campaigns. i have to see the political campaigns of the democrats and independents to thoroughly prosecute this case. if they do, they win. if they don't, they only have themselves to blame. >> what do you mean politically prosecute. what does that look like to you? >> i mean, instead of talking about build back better and arguing over the inflation rate, they need to make an argument our democracy is at risk and what is happening in ukraine is extension of what has been going on in the united states of america and if they want people cozied up to a dictator, vote for whoever donald trump backs.
if they want to preserve democracy in the country and this is the most fundamental issue, every argument ought to be about for the next seven or 17 months, democracy is at risk not only in ukraine but here, as well. hold the republicans and donald trump responsible. >> so rick wilson, my followup would be okay, do you think that would work? is that actually going to resonate? before you answer that question, i want to play for you some sound from vaughn on the ground in michigan talking to some republican governor candidates asked about their belief. there is a port in the former president and their belief in the big lie. >> every single county clerk who certified the election, would you not take their word? >> well, i would want and i already said i would call for a forensic audit to understand the issues. i'm not going to try to have you back me in a corner. >> i think there is reason to be
skeptical. you were the governor whether you would certify the election. their right to be skeptical? >> absolutely a reason. >> do you believe donald trump should still be in office? >> i do. he should have won the election. >> do you believe he won the election? >> i do. i do, yes.shenanigans. if you look at the math, it doesn't add up. >> 30 seconds, rick wilson. listening to that, will it work? >> you believe and recite the big lie. for donald trump's followers now, the big lie is he won the election when he most clearly did not. for vladimir putin's followers right now at home and here in the u.s., the big lie is this is a special military operation and there are no civilians being slaughtered in the streets of ukrainian cities by russian troops. those big lies are fundamental and corrosive. >> matthew dowd, rick wilson, thank you both. i wish we could have a longer conversation on this but time does in fact run out. thank you guys. that wraps it up for me. i'm jasmine. i'll be back here next saturday and sunday 3:00 p.m. eastern.
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