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tv   Deadline White House  MSNBC  April 6, 2022 1:00pm-3:00pm PDT

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hi there, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. a little over one hour from right now, the house will vote to hold two former members of the ex president's inner circle in contempt of congress for defying subpoenas from the january 6 select committee. they are former trade adviser peter navarro and chief of staff dan scavino. the two of thome played a bigger role in pedaling the big lie that election was somehow stolen
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from donald trump. as trump's social media guy dan scavino posted the tweets that spread conspiracies to millions of americans, lies many of them still believe and peter navarro wrote a book by concocting a scheme to overturn the will of the american voters and along with steve bannon that includes 100 members of congress who are now voting on whether to hold him in contempt of the body in which they serve. sounds twisted, right. this is the third time the select committee has asked the house to vote on contempt charges and if it passes, as is expected, the house makes a criminal referral to doj which is also prosecuting steve bannon for being in contempt of congress. but not yet decided what to do about mark meadows. vote will only add to the pressure bearing down on doj to hold accountable not just the former trump officials who are stonewalling the probe, but also
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that sprawling network of people involved in the trump coup plot. news that the justice department has expanded the scope of its january 6 investigation broke last week. now brand-new reporting in "the new york times" delves deep lie into a sweeping subpoena issued by a grand jury in washington, d.c. one that might bring members of trump's inner circle some of whom are already under scrutiny by the january 6 select committee right into the spotlight of that parallel investigation as well. from the times report, rrks are asking for records about team who organized or spoke at several pro-trump rallies after the election. the subpoenas also seeking records about anyone who provided security at those events and about those who were deemed to be vip attendees. more over, it requests information about any members of the executive and legislative branches who may have taken part in planning or executing the rallies. or tried to obstruct, influence
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and impede or delay the certification of the presidential election. each of those broad categories could involve dozens of individuals taken together the total number of potential witnesses or targets sought by the grand jury could easily reach into the hundreds. the doj casting a wide net in its january 6 probe. is where we start the hour. "new york times" reporter luke braletter is here and new piece of times and jackie joins us, washington post reporter and also an msnbc contributor. and legal analyst neal katyal is back and jason johnson is here journalism and professor at morgan state university and msnbc contributor. luke, take me through what your reporting today with your colleagues. >> sure. so we've been able to obtain a
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subpoena issued by the grand jury in d.c. and it does reveal some important avenues that they're looking into. one is so-called vips at the january 6 rally. they're requesting information from witnesses about these trump vips. the second is anyone in the executive or legislative branch who had anything to do with plans to disrupt or interfere with the january 6 vote of congress, the certification of joe biden's election before congress. and then the third is the scheme to use pro-trump electors or fake electors in states that were won by joe biden to actually vote for donald trump instead. and so those are huge topics. those are sprawling topics. so this investigation could potentially go anywhere. we don't know exactly where it is going or what the justice department will find. but we do know now from the subpoena exactly some very
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specific avenues where what the justice department is looking into as they work their way up from rioters to potentially other people. >> luke, i think anyone of your earlier appearances on this program was several after you wrote a piece really sort of investigating and reporting out connections between sitting republican members of congress and some of the very same extremist groups who are under scrutiny both by the 1/6 committee and very much so by doj. i wonder how this subpoena potentially pulls some of them in based on what you just mentioned about potential legislative targets. >> again, we don't know what we don't know, right. but it does specifically say legislative branch. so that means in the federal system, we're talking about congress, right. so potentially we know there were connections between some of the people who were planning
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rallies and some members of congress. to that it is something that we ask about. we know that some members of congress didn't have interactions or meetings with different extremist groups over time. could that be something that they ask about. we honestly don't know the answers to those questions. but we do know from the subpoena that at legislative branch is something that the justice department is now interested in as their asking witnesses for this grand jury. >> jackie, one of the sort of dramatic undercurrents around the 1/6 committee is will they or won't they subpoena their own colleagues. and i wonder if the pressure may not go the other way. we've talked for so long about chairman thompson and vice chair cheney's aggressive posture on criminality. it makes clear that they feel they have gathered enough evidence to say that crimes were
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committed. you know have the federal judge in the eastman case that likely felonies were committed donald trump and now you have doj saying that it's criminal investigation will now if not target, scrutinize the legislative branch. how might that influence a decision as to whether or not to subpoena members? >> yeah, nicolle, i think that could potentially influence the committee. although they have done a good job at this point in time of sort of abiding by the fire wall between the committee and the doj. we have just reported earlier as one example of the fire wall that the justice department actually stonewalled committee staffers who sought to learn more information about prosecutors's views on the impending referrals from mark meadows ab likely to pass through the house tonight for dan scavino and peter navarro and for people familiar with the matter. the department has not acted on
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the december vote. but when it comes to the issue of actually subpoenaing their own colleagues, this is something where a doj investigation could help alevy ate some of the pressure that members have been weighing behind closed doors. we've been told that lawmakers have been acutely of aware of not trying to further inflame the situation and i think that a red line that has sort of been drawn and as we've seen so far at least because the committee has voluntarily requested that people like house minority leader kevin mccarthy and jim jordan and scott perry appear before the commissiony and they have not yet cooperated and we haven't seen subpoenas. the committee is treading lightly with these kinds of cases. but i do think at the end of the day, if these contempt referrals are continued to be left hanging and ultimately render congress's subpoena power toothless, then we could see the committee try
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to take the different moves in order to apply more pressure for cooperation. as they scramble to close up this investigation and move towards the public hearings. >> neil, i want to read a little bit more from luke's reporting and then i have a question about where this may lead. the times is reporting this, it is not clear if any trump era executive or legislative branch members are received subpoenas. there is no public indication that anyone has been targeted for prosecution. but in looking for more information about what was happening at both the white house and on capitol hill, as trump sought to stay in power, the house select committee has expressed interest in kraim advisers among them is mark meadows an the white house chief of staff, katrina peerson, a a long time trump political adviser in direct contact with trump about the details of the rallies on january 5th and january 6 and including who
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would be speaking and what music would be played. we forget sometimes that trump, for as bad as he was at the details of protecting democracy and fighting a pandemic, was obsessed with the production details of political events, from the play list. and i remember this when i read this great reporting from luke and his colleagues. this is specifically about the 1/6 committee, but if the two bodies, congress and the white house and these two activities planning of the rallies come under scrutiny by doj, that seems like the clearest indication yet that if they do what merrick garland said what they're doing and follow the fakes, those lead straight to donald trump. >> you're exactly right, nicolle. so i think that the story today in "the new york times" is really welcome news by the garland justice department. and what a subpoena is, is it is a request by prosecutors for
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documents. it is not like a target letter saying you committed a crime. they're starting to investigate. and those of us have been -- including yourself and i have been concerned that so far the investigative signs haven't really radiated beyond basically who invaded the capitol. but no, the subpoenas are broader and they include planning for january 6 and who spoke there and who organized the january 6 stuff, and that is a lot. i mean, at in point the subpoena might as well include the category of anyone who ironically considered download truth social. it is a lot of people. and you know, potentially a lot people are swept up in this like the greater number than trump probably gave covid to. it is a broad amount. and one that may ultimately wind up being at trump's foot step for the reasons you're suggesting. the idea that donald trump wasn't involved in the
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production and theatrics of january 6 has always been a bit difficult to swallow. but i think that is what the investigators are building their case for, it is still early on and i would say one other thing to merrick garland's credit, this was not announced in a press release or anything. my guess is the way in which luke got this information is from one of the targets of a subpoena, not from some leak or even official pronouncement, that is the justice department doing its job right, quietly and in the shadows, we've all been hoping that the investigation has been proceeding in the shadows even if we're not hearing about it. this is a good indication that it is. >> i want to play for you, jason johnson, something that congressman jamie raskin said on this show many months ago about their sort of investigative theory about the three rings. because what luke's story presents for the very first time that perhaps doj is examining that perhaps they're theory of
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the investigation is very much the same as what jamie raskin describes right here. >> there was a mass demonstration, a wild demonstration called by donald trump that turned into a riot. that was the outer ring of activity. the middle ring of activity was the insurrection itself and that was the proud boys, the oath keepers, the 3%-ers and a bunch of organize extremist violent groups that were training for battle that broke our windows and that began the assault on the police officers that the rioters filled in on. but the scariest part of the day was really the inner ring of the coup. and there the whole point was to try to force vice president mike pence to declare completely lawless powers to unilaterally
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reject and repudiate votes if arizona, georgia and pennsylvania and a handful of other states. >> so the timing that jamie raskin said that, it was really only that outer ring under scrutiny, since that interview they've charged seditious conspiracy and that is under scrutiny, but i wonder if you think that luke's reporting suggests that perhaps they're also examining that inner most ring now. >> they have to. nicolle, that part, almost a year ago, on this program, i remember we were talking about the member of congress from new jersey, i believe who said that she believed that she saw fellow members of congress giving tours to people, strange tours to people the day before the january 6 insurrection. it has always been very clear to me that you have some people, taffers or members of congress themselves, insiders who had to be involved in this insurrection. if you tell me that you like gave danny ocean a tour of a
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bank and the next day the bank is robbed, you can't tell me i had no idea it was danny ocean and his 11 friends will show up. these people knew. and you had to have inside information and people who knew where to find nancy pelosi's office. and so i'm glad that this is part of the investigation. it should have been from the very beginning. but i have maintained my concerns about whether or not merrick garland will move fast enough or be aggressive enough on these issues. if he could wait 100 days to decide whether he wanted to indict mark meadows and indict steve bannon and then we have the january 6 committee concerned about subpoenaing their own members, i don't know if anyone has the political backbone to bring members of congress in front of this committee or potentially prosecute them because it is impossible to imagine there aren't some sitting members right now who were involved in an attempt to over throw this government a year ago. >> take ally alexander's world
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war word for it. >> i was the person that came up with the january 6 idea with congressman gosar and mo brooks and then congressman andy dicks. we four schemed up of putting maximum pressure on congress while they were voting so that who we couldn't lobby, we could change the hearts and minds of the republicans who were in that body hearing our loud war from outside. >> i don't even know what to do with that, neal katyal. is that a confession, is that a come get me. what is that? >> lord knows, nicolle. i'm stumped. i don't know what that is either. it does sound like a confession. it sounds like something prosecutors would use if they wanted to build a case. he's basically come out and said the quiet part out loud. and so, yeah. >> i want to press on this because it is not just riveting,
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we know under ali alexander has cooperated with the 1/6 committee, and spent i believe up to eight hours with them, jackie or luke correct me if i have that wrong but what he said there has elicited in "the new york times" some stiff denials. gosar's chief of staff said the office just promoted stop the steal events. they didn't plan them. they were promotors, not planners. we'll have to see if that is a distinction. mr. biggs who provided a video message for ali alexander to play at a december 19th rally. said again, just a video, not coordination for the event planning. and mr. brooks, who seemed to have an inside line that was accuraty enough, really press yent that he knew to wear body armon or stage on january 6 and also out with a denial to the
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times telling the crowd to start taking down names and kicking ass in his body armor but denied that he was coordinating that activity with mr. alexander. what is the significance of this, luke? >> well, those members and their offices are denying that they were involved in planning the rally which is what ali alexander said all of those months ago on that video. obviously they were involved with alexander in some way. he had to get the video from andy bigs to play somehow. and he did actually, there was a text message that mo brooks have made public from ally alexander, so they did have some interaction. but they deny they had any planning in the january 6 rally. i don't know how to characterize the mental state but they're trying to distance themself from the event that day to a certain
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extent. it is worth noting that mo brooks has come out just recently and said that president trump has continued to pressure him to try to overturn the election, even months later now. so his statements have been kind of all over the place on this. but, if these may well be questions that this grand jury may end up asking if they do continue down the path toward legislative branch. >> and jackie, it seems that liz cheney as recently as this week, i think it was in the rules committee meeting this week, ahead of the full house vote, the committee vote, was calling out republicans for playing politics and doing precisely what they're doing. i made a video and a tended but i didn't. i coordinated but i didn't plot. they're playing politics and word games and parsing. they were all in on the effort to overturn the will of the voters and participants in events that turned deadly.
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>> right, nicolle. and i think what all of this really does highlight is the time constraints an the urgency that the committee and the doj really has right now. you know, i sat in on a bunch of focus groups and parsed through transcripts of a handful of voters, some of them new voters, some of them high information voters and others were voters who just got politically involved in 2016 and they were all asked about january 6. and many of them felt that there was an inherent contradiction in some of the lawmakers who either supported the insurrectionists, have asked to get them pardoned and some of the republicans who may have played a part in it. and that is where i think it is important that the doj and the committee's work get done well before the 2022 midterms. so these voters both republicans and democrats again who expressed some of these concerns, some of which said during those groups that this
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issue was so galvanizing that they wanted to move to the district where these lawmakers who supported insurrectionist or par took in this stop the steal rally in some way in order to vote against them. so that is where it is important that this work gets done. sooner rather than later. but the committee is going to have to find a way to hold these lawmakers accountable since right now it seems like subpoena might not necessarily be the avenue they're going after. >> all right. everyone is sticking around. and when we come back, there is new reporting from inside trump world in "the washington post" as legal jeopardy mounts for some of these, shall we call them characters. they're out smoozing and cab itsy at mar-a-lago and with the big lie taking center stage. plus president biden announcing yet another round of sanctions against russia. targeting putin's two children. how the sanctions are different and new reporting on how the u.s. is fighting the information war against the kremlin. and later in the program,
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pentagon spokesperson john kirby will be our guest once again on the military machinery that the u.s. is sending, getting it into the hands of the ukrainians almost immediately. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. stay with us. ♪ ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis.
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i've been reading peter navarro's book and it is interesting that some of the hatreds that he shows towards other people like jared kushner, or sidney powell or mitch mcconnell. kind of track the people who are being cooperative versus the
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entourage around donald trump. the people who are sticking to the big lie are the ones who are least likely to cooperate. the ones who are trying to maintain the pretense that donald trump won the election that january 6 was, you know, rioters presented flowers and hugs and kisses to the officers they are refusing to participate and then there are some people who seem to want to rejoin the rule of law and the constitutional democratic framework and i think it is all too the good that this major schism has erupted within the ranks of the republicans. >> that is january 6 select committee member jamie raskin on what he described as a schism on the right between the people cooperating with his committee and the trump dead enders who are not. so jackie, what this made me think of is the most recent cooperators, jared and ivanka trump. your colleagues have some great in terms of gala and humor and
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reporting about life at mar-a-lago for donald trump and his coterie of trump allies and donors and paying club members gathered at his beach front club for a reunion to sip wine and snack on fried shrimp and pastry wrapped hot dogs on the mar-a-lago patio and talk about the election that he lost and who peter navarro baseballed into the room, corey lewandowski hollered out doctor and embraced him. oh, that vote. he said, the contempt proceedings assuming a plan without a care in the world. but you have his daughter, his beloved daughter, and son-in-law and the other side as collaborators with the truth seeking mission. how does that work? >> yeah, and conspicuously missing from this fed at mar-a-lago that my colleague josh dossy wrote very eloquently
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and depressingly funny about a lot has changed in the course of -- since donald trump has left the white house. but much hasn't. which is the fact that this former president and is still obsessed with claims of election fraud, that the election was quote/unquote rigged and surrounds himself with people who continue to propagate those views, people like peter navarro who was dismissive and mocked the context proceedings that he's facing today. which is why lawmakers on the panel view the doj's work as so important for them to actually take up and decide to prosecute these referrals. but i would love to get the former president's take on whether or not he feeled betrayed by ivanka and jared for cooperating with the committee. that being said there is enough evidence that we know that the committee has gathered so far
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about what ivanka and jared were doing and what they might already know that it possibly would have been more difficult for them to avoid this. we still senate have a full read out of what exactly ivanka said during those six or seven hours yesterday before the committee. but, we do know that she was in the oval office when the president was making a last ditch attempt to persuade mike pence to overturn the results of the election on january 6. >> i read these torys too and i think if you are a defense lawyer it would be such a target rich environment. and speaking of that, steve bannon who has been entangled with the criminal justice system at a federal level for a long time. he was one of the last, i think trump insiders to get a pardon after intensive lobbying of maybe, maybe not. donald trump until the very end gave steve bannon his pardonch he's in trouble again. he's defending a -- a criminal context of congress charge and
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today, neal, if you could help us unpack a legal blow. the judge in that case said the reporting from my colleagues pete williams and daniel barns, a judge had a criminal contempt of congress charge and said that he cannot argue at the trial that he is not guilty that he acted on the advice of his lawyer. that was going to be the centerpiece of the defense so it is a blow to him. you said this, i think before bannon tried to argue it, there is no executive privilege. how did bannon think that was going to sustain him here? >> yes, nicolle, it is a serious blow to steve bannon. i won't say it is his worst day in court, he's been a convicted felon but it is a bad day. so congress recommended contempt and merrick garland justice department indicted for contempt and so they're saying congress,
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you're supposed to tell the truth to congress. he was afraid to do so and the bannon argument is i have a lawyers note from time that said i didn't have to go and testify and tell the truth. and that is what he told the judge for why he shouldn't be prosecuted and the judge today resoundedly rejeked that saying, like, ever since 1961 and the sinclair case, this is never been a valid excuse when information is sought by congress. and then i think most important piece of the decision that it was written by carl nichols, a well respected trump appointee judge in washington, d.c. so, you know, it is interesting it is happened right before congress is voting on the novarro and scavino contempt proceeding which is for the exact same set of things, it is obviously different information here. scavino evidently allowed trump to use his cell phone during the seven-hour gap with the white house phone logs and the like.
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and scavino is probably not just refusing to turn over that information because he's afraid to reveal to congress his phone's browsing history. there is probably a deeper reason that. and what has happened today is basically the judge knocking out one further defense that navarro and scatino might use later on which is my lawyer told me it was cool. not cool. >> you know, luke, i don't -- now they face this criminal context referral vote tonight knowing that executive privilege as a defense isn't a think. if they don't they did anything wrong, why are they wracking up more criminal defense attorney charges. what -- what stories are they telling themselves about why they won't sit down like jared and ivanka and mark short and kellogg and all of these other people, kayleigh mcenany, who are dead enders and family
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members for christ sake. why don't they just cooperate? luke? he's frozen. can you hear us? >> sorry. yes. sorry. i think there is a big divide here in trump world between the navarro and scavinos of the world and the jared and ivankas of the world. there are some people like steve bannon who i think actually relish the fight with the committee. they -- it benefits then perhaps politically and then their standing in their circles, they go to war with the committee. whereas there are other people who think that it is in my interest to return back to some sort of normality in politics to abide by congressional subpoenas and sit for hours of interviews like 800 other witnesses have done. so there are very different paths they have taken. it is a ricky game that they are
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playing because there is $100,000 fine and a year in jail along with this charge. so it is not -- it shouldn't be taken lightly. >> jason johnson, i want to come to you and see if you agree about this schism that congressman -- i was watching your face on my monitor. i'm getting your skeptical that there is much of a divide at all. just different paths to obstruction and defiance of the rule of law. what do you think? >> yeah, there is no schism here. this is not the line you draw between you and your younger brother in the room. i'm on this side. no, there is no schism. it is people figuring out what is best way to save my skin until, finger's crossed, republicans take over the house this fall and we could all pretend this hasn't happened. every single time we assume that there is a break -- it is been going on for five or six years, every time we assume there is a break there trump world, this is the line where people will break with him, it never happened.
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they could not get off the trump narcotic. they have never been able to. people have found a way, even looking after them selves to circle back into trump world. and if there were any question about the political consequences, in congress hook, line and sinker 99% of republicans voted to not have these kind of committees. 99% of republicans voted not to impeach or indict the president on anything. so i don't think that there is a schism. i think that everybody is looking out for themselves. and think jared and ivanka, one day they want to go back to the met gala or inside parters and don't like they're associated with the nonsense that they were engaged in in the white house. will they change their tune after the midterm elections. we might see that. but i don't believe there is any schism. the republicans are unified in defending donald trump for whatever way works for them. >> and vladimir putin and the targets of the 1/6 committee waiting to exhale.
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thank you all so much for starting us off this hour. we'll head back to that story, the developments and waiting for this contempt vote in the next hour at the top our next hour when the full house will go an on the record, on every single one of them, on whether the two former advisers should be response to a subpoena from congress and if they are not whether they should be held in contempt. coming up next, the united states is punishing vladimir putin family with another tough round of sanctions as more evidence and more intelligence points to a repositioning of fighting in ukraine as well as those heinous, heinous war crimes in bucha. -- officials urging people to vatican while they still can. that is coming up for us. till cn that is coming up for us doug? [children laughing] sorry about that.'s uhh... you alright? [loud exhale] [ding]
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(typing) (toddler laughs) ♪♪ (train whizzes by) ♪♪ (toddler babbling) ♪♪ (buzzing sound) ♪♪
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(dog barks) ♪♪ (wine glasses clink) ♪♪ (typing) ♪♪ (toddler babbling) (typing) ♪♪ ♪♪ i'm sure you've seen the pictures from bucha and just outside of kyiv. bodies left in streets as russian troops with draw. there is nothing less happening than major war crimes. responsible nations have to come together to hold these perpetrators accountable and to together with our allies and our partners, we're going to keep raising the economic cost and ratchet up the pain for putin and further increase russia's economic isolation. >> president joe biden on the horrifying scenes out of bucha near ukraine's capital of kyiv in what appears to be convincing
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and mounting evidence of russian war crimes and heinous atrocities. it is part as the white house reasoning for a brand new round of sanctions blocking two large banks from the u.s. financial system, prohibiting americans from making any new investments in russia and cutting off the allies from the u.s. banks including two his adull daughters, kremlin officials and their families. nbc news has new reporting about how the u.s. is using intelligence as a weapon. even when that intelligence isn't rock solid. so on that reporting, quote, the idea is to preempt and disrupt the crem continue that ktices and complicate its military campaign and according to a western government official, undermine moscow's propaganda and prevent russia from defining how the war is perceived in the world. joining us now, courtney kube a john brennan, a msnbc senior national security and
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intelligence analyst. director brennan, i wan to start with you. president zelenskyy in a speech for the ages describes what is happening in his country as a genocide. what do you make of these sanctions and what do you make as to whether or not vladimir putin is feeling any pain at all or simply rallying his nation to his version of events? >> well, clearly an evil leader like vladimir putin produced evil followers and that is what we're seeing play out in the battlefields of ukraine. these horrific killing of civilians and they are trying to make it as painful as possible for vladimir putin to continue this awful war and they're hoping there is a cumulative impact here. in terms of the cost that the russian military has incurred on the battlefields but also the financial and economic and other pressures. and so what i think the biden
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administration is doing and what biden said today, is he's trying to make sure that any possible opportunity for russia to use its sovereign wealth is going to be cut off. now obviously we need to have the cooperation of countries around the world. but i do think we're going to see more and more of this international pressure led by the united states as a result of these horrific killings and mass murder that is taking place in ukraine. >> director brennan, we saw these pictures over the weekend because of something courtney has been reporting on and that is the repositioning of russian forces. they had occupied bucha and they pulled away from kyiv to move and sort of harden their offensive in the eastern part of the country. but the view from ukraine is that all across their country there are many, many, many, many buchas. what in your decades of experience and intelligence do you assess this happening right now to civilians inside of
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ukraine at the hands of what tony blinken clearly believe it's a top down strategy by the russian military. >> well, i think what we've seen are the russian attacks against the population centers as a way to intim date the ukrainian population into submission. but also what i think we're seeing now is return forces are withdrawing from some of the cities are revenge attacks. these purely sadistic attacks people bound and gagged and shot and because again i think this battle frooeld has produced these individuals who are really evil incarnate is all i could say on that. but this repositioning of the russian forces, i think this is just russia trying to regroup so that it can consolidate its positions and continue to prosecute this war in eastern part of ukraine, southern part of ukraine as well. so i think as the russian troops pull out and we're seeing more of the devastation, i think unfortunately we're going to find more of these ukrainian
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citizens who have been mercilessly killed by russian forces. >> courtney, i want to ask you about two things that have happened on this show this week. something you cover all of the time. john kirby, i asked him when he -- he's been at that podium through so many horrific chapters of human history in conflict and i asked him what he thought as he woke up and saw the images out of bucha and for a second he couldn't speak. he grew emotional. and it just reminded me of something that you have in mind all of the time, these people are human beings and doing the best they can under whatever parameters we draw around from a policy level. my question is two fold. one, did bucha change the incentive to think creatively within the lines and two, something helene cooper said on this program, they believes that pretty soon the line between offensive and defensive weapons systems will all but disappear.
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>> yeah, think that line has disappeared the moment that russia invaded ukraine and that is because -- i've always thought though the term defensive versus offensive is subjective. but the reality is once russia ip -- invaded was used in a defensive nature because they were dooed defending their country so i think that changed an the first indication of that was when the united states started sending stig stingers. that is something that the u.s. was hesitant to do for a long time because of the potential provocative nature of going back to russia and stingers being used against the russian helicopters in afghanistan, decades ago. but also because it was seen as something that was really offensive and in that was t was shooting down aircraft. and then the u.s. sent the stingers in pretty early on. weeks ago. so i think that is happened for sometime. but you're absolutely right about the human side of this. these are individuals who are
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watching this, the same way that you and i are and director brennan are, seeing that this is a horrific nature. but what i will say is i spoke with the senior defense official specifically about this earlier today who reminded, that bucha is not the fir time there have been war crimes in ukraine by the russian military. it is not just there that we have seen horrific images. they are just the most recent ones. i shoulder to think what will come out of mariupol because that city has been absolutely pounded for weeks now. and another one is kharkiv. the russian military began to surround kharkiv in literally the first hours of the invasion and it is been under assault ever since then. it is one that there hasn't been a lot of video and images out of because it is so difficult there. but that is another place where i think we're going to see evidence of war crimes in the coming days and weeks. >> courtney, i want to get to your reporting and i'm going to
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ask both of you to stick with us through a quick break and we'll be right back on the other side with that. stay with us.
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the sanctions cumulatively have put the russian economy into a deep recession and what we're seeing is a likely contraction of the russian economy by about 15%. that is dramatic. >> that was u.s. secretary of state blinken there with andrea mitchell. the question about not just the effectiveness of sanctions, but the way they're being put in. president biden today vowed to keep going and predicted that u.s. sanctions will likely wipe out the last 15 years of russia's economic gains. we're back with courtney and former cia director, john brennan. i want to ask you about maybe what we don't see. katy reminds us how we have to continue to speak with one voice. about the impact of suddenly turning off some of the oil imports from russia on their economy and elections. she was talking about watching
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the french elections carefully. talk about what we may be don't appreciate. we saw the horrors. the crimes against humanity, the genocide, as president zelenskyy called it. i think the world wants the punishment to be swift. tell me what's behind it and if you agree that they're having a desired impact? >> well i think it's a surprise to me around the globe about how steadfast ukrainian forces have been. so i think what they're doing now is trying to determine how they can continue to turn the screws over time so that more and more pain will be inflicted on putin. so there is an understanding that the impact on europe in particular in terms of a potential cutoff of energy supplies, gas and oil, could be devastating and have political reverberations. so i think the biden administration is working carefully with a lot of these partners and folks around the world to see what can be done.
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maybe it seems to be too incremental and slow to many, but i think there's this ratcheting up of pressure that hopefully we're going to see more and more of these sanctions and punishments. i would expect that the europeans, who are looking at this russian bear swallowing up one of thaer countries, are going to do things that are really going to change the course of the europeans' relationships with moscow for decades to come. so i think the biden administration is looking at what they can do over the longer term. they want to make sure there's going to be as much punishment now as possible because as president zelenskyy says, the sooner this war comes to an end, the less bloodshed there will be and more ukrainian lives will be saved. >> such a good reminder that at the outset of this war, for at spot on as intelligence was about everything russia had planned, the capability and tenacity of the ukrainian military was either
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underappreciated or not communicated as clearly and i wonder if you can talk about and pivot off what you're reporting today, how those assessments have had to be recalibrated given what former ukrainian ambassador, bill taylor, described ukraine as the most tested, best, one of the best militaries in europe. >> yeah, that's right. and you have to remember that russia hadn't been a part of a ground invasion of this size, scale, and magnitude in years. in decades. they were not tested. whereas ukraine, they had been invaded only eight years ago and in that time, their military really built up and they became a much more capable forced. they have been overmatched in personnel, numbers, in equipment to russia, but in the ensuing weeks, the world has flowed in
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so much equipment and help that that's really helped them. the ukrainians have also been very strategic in how they have fought back against russia at the same time russia has not been strategic about how they have reacted. the russian military have had three major, in addition to a number of operational and tactical mistakes they've made on the ground, they've had three major strategic mistakes from the very beginning of this. one was just going in on these three major axis, really more than that, into ukraine. they simply spread themselves too thin from the beginning and haven't been able to mount a very strong offensive in the north, east, or south. another one, we've heard a lot about their logistics problem, but you really can't underscore how much that has impacted them. then finally, they're detrimental command and control. they're not talking to ground forces. they're not interacting or working together.
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those three things have been why the russians have largely failed in many cases in this operation. >> just so hard to take in that information, those assessments because in light of all that failure and incompetence, they're doing such tremendous human harm and damage, but it's really important. it's not going according to their plan at all. courtney, director brennan, thank you so much for spending time with us today. up next for us, a reporter who's seen for himself exactly what went down in bucha. plus, john kirby takes our questions when we come back. kir questions when we come back. can leave you down and in the dark. but what if you could begin to see the signs of hope all around you? what if you could let in the lyte? discover caplyta. caplyta is a once-daily pill, proven to deliver significant relief from bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and bipolar ii depression. and, in clinical trials, feelings of inner restlessness
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russia hasn't yet abandoned their plans. they are still looking toward to subdue and occupy all the crane ukrainian people. we want to do our best to make sure russia will start looking for peace and leave us alone.
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>> hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. the latest response from the administration to end the war like that from the ukrainian president coming in announcement last night that ukraine will be receiving $100 million for more anti-armor systems as the russians continue their brutal attacks. although russians have withdrawn all of their troops from the areas of kyiv and chernihiv. the pullback of russian forces reveals the atrocities they've committed and raises more concerns about what is taking place in places we cannot see. places like the besieged city of mariupol. mariupol's mayor in a post on telegram said this, quote, the world has not seen the scale of a tragedy like in mariupol since the nazi concentration camp.
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with each new development is this war waged by the russians is one in which brutality and cruelty is the point. cities like mykolaiv are still being pelted. president zelenskyy said russia is using hunger as a weapon of war. the pope even called out the violence earlier holding and kissing a flag sent to him from bucha, which he described as a martyred city. "the washington post" finds that ukraine is now using about 50,000 investigators across five different law enforcement agencies to conduct interviews across the country into whether war crimes were committed. from that, quote, they have fanned out across ukraine, addressing small groups of mostly female and elderly displaced people. in churches, classrooms, and auditoriums. they explain that one day, there
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may be compensation for their lost loved ones, personal injuries, and property losses and that russia can be held accountable only if its victims tell their stories in pain staking detail. like this from npr's nathan rot. we're going to give you a second to get any kids out of the room. what he describes is deeply painful and disturbing. take a listen. >> three different parts of bucha yesterday, none of them i should say now appeared staged or fake in any way. one of the places we went was a street that was littered with military transport, military casings, torn metal. it was in a residential area. every home was either destroyed or severely damaged. i was told by a resident that multiple people, civilians, had died on that street and we actually saw that in another location. ukrainian police had found a pile of six bodies earlier this
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week. four women, two men, who had been killed by gun shots then burnt and we watched as they moved those badly burned bodies into bags. >> joining us now, the reporting you just heard, nathan rut live for us in kyiv, ukraine. he's just returned from that tour in bucha. just tell me more about what you saw there. >> yes, we went on a press tour with a bunch of other journalists who were basically trying to go see some of those horrific stories we've been hearing out of bucha within the last couple of days and we visited three different sites. we went to a street where there was a lot of destroyed military equipment. you heard me describe some of it there. we talked to people there, i talk today a man who basically explained how when the russians first got to his town, three knocked on his door, they yelled, fired a gun into his
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window, threw a grenade into his houg house. he, his daughter, son-in-law all hid. they were asked to come out where their hands up. they were asked where are the nazis? they said they are none here. they took his son-in-law to the street. they killed him. shot him in the head. he and his daughter fled and that you know, when i was talking to him the other day, he said he was wearing same clothes he had been wearing for the last month as he had essentially just been hiding in a basement of a neighbor's house. >> what do the people of bucha want you to tell us? >> i think it's clear the people in bucha and ukrainian authorities, they are planning tours right now for journalists. president zelenskyy said he wants thousands of journalists to come to bucha to see what
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happened there. and really, i think what they want is they want to world to see that you know, things that they've been saying have been happening are happening. there is evidence of this now. that people have been killed. you know, there's still a lot that needs to be determined. you mentioned earlier that ukrainian's prosecutor general is basically looking at each and every single one of these deaths to try to figure out you know, exactly how it happened to the best of their ability, but yeah. there's a lot of anger. there's a lot of frustration, a lot of resolve. i definitely feel like talking to people over the last few days, you know, people are angry. horrific things have happened not far from where we are right now, where i am right now, and people want there to be accountability. >> president zelenskyy describes it as a genocide. former zelenskyy adviser said on my program that the russian aim that many people in the west think russia is aspiring to do is to recreate the glory of the
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ussr. he said that is not true at all. they are here to eliminate ukraine and ukrainians. was that evident to you on your tour of bucha? >> you know, look, i only saw a small bit of what happened in bucha and you know, i think it's important to remember that bucha is just one of many towns in the larger kyiv area that were occupied by russian troops for almost a month, if not a month. and so you know, talking to the people we talked to said yes, russian troops came in. they had little regard for human life. there was a lot of looting. there were people living in their homes. people were terrified and still a little bit terrified. we met people that had been moving back into these areas over the last couple of days, but some of these towns are, the destruction is kind of hard to put into words. it's hard to imagine that people are just going to be able to
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move back in and pick up life like it was. >> and the tactics deployed by russia in bucha have been deployed for even longer in mariupol and other parts of the country. i know many ukrainians fear that the scale of civilian slaughter will be even greater. what are you picking up in the country about what people are bracing for as they're able to assess other areas? >> i mean, look, i think a lot of people are very concerned that at what people saw, what we're seeing is going to be repeated over and over and over again as ukrainian troops and police go into these towns that were occupied by russians for many weeks and start clearing them. it's going to be a long process. even when we were in bucha the other day, there was a mine
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swiping crew. we've heard there are booby traps all over the place. you walk down the street, there's craters in the roads from artillery. some of which can explode. you've got all these things that are going to make it a really, really long process and the police are saying yeah, look, this is going to continue to happen as we search through here, we're going to find more people that have been killed and we're going to have to try to investigate that to the best of our ability. >> nathan, covering the war from here is nothing. covering it from where you are is everything. you're the reason we know what's happening. but even from my safe distance, there are some part of it that i can't bear. that's children living in terror and going to sleep at night in their shelters or down in the subways. what for you was most difficult about the tour of bucha?
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>> you know, that's an interesting question. i've got to say it's an interesting dynamic being a reporter here because i, you know, i'm based in los angeles usually. my normal day job is covering climate change and here i am covering a war in a country i've never been to. you know, i think as a reporter flying into that, you need to be super humble and realize there's a lot of stuff you don't know and be accepting of you know, advice that people are giving you. talking to people here, you know, we're working with fixers who are, i don't think a lot of people appreciate the role that fixers play for journalists like us. they not only help us translate, but help us know what's going on on the ground. and these people are going through a lot of trauma themselves. their country has been invaded. they have family they can't talk to. in places where they don't feel
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safe. i think honestly with as horrifying as some of the things in bucha, badly burned bodies, it's awful. but just talking to people and having those kind of relationships with them and realizing how much they're going through even when you know, they're in a relatively safe place i think has been the most kind of impactful thing to me. >> what is the thing that to you say, and to your point about fixers is such an important one. the local guide who worked with the fox news crew was among those lost her life helping to bring this story to the viewers of that network. they're so important and don't get the shutouts that you just gave them, but what is the conversation among other journalists in your position who like you said, you were covering climate change from los angeles before this, who found yourself there. we don't know everything. lots of places in ukraine can't see, can't get to, like mariupol. what is the conversation you have amongst yourselves? if they could only see what?
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if they could only hear the fixer call and get a dead signal. if they could only see the face. i mean, what is the conversation you have amongst yourselves, the thing we can't fathom from here? >> i think one of the things, like one of the points of conversation that'll really come up in the last couple of days that as the news from bucha, as we've learned more, there is a growing sense in the journalism community here that war crimes may have been committed here and ukraine is doing its best to investigate that, but obviously ukraine is not a, it's not an objective viewer in this, right? so i think there's, the u.n. united nations, has not launched an independent investigation as they say one is needed, but to my knowledge, none has been launched. so i think there's a sense of duty from the journalists i've talked to that we need to get out here and find these stories
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and document this as best we can. right now, as soon as we can. so that those can be used going forward. to better understand what actually happened here the last couple of weeks and what still might be happening. >> well, whatever it is, the courage or sense of duty, we're really grateful for your reporting. live for us in kyiv. thank you so much for all of your reporting. please stay safe. thank you for spending time with us today. >> thanks for having me. >> joining us, john kirby. you made me cry last time you were here. start with weapon systems. what have we done to aid the ukrainian military today? >> just last night, nicolle, i think you saw, the president approved another $100 million drawdown package from dod stocks, from department stocks. in this case, all that money's going to be spent on several hundred javelin anti-tank
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missile systems which we are going to be working hard to get into the hands of those ukrainian fighters in the next few days. we've got a system down now. we've done this for the last month. a system that's quite expeditious in getting these things into the hands of the ukrainians. and there could be more coming. the president, secretary austin has been clear. we're going to get as much terrible to the ukrainians as we can and as fast as we can. i wouldn't rule out additional packages to come. >> i want to ask you about something. two of the journalists who you see every day at your briefings, i watch those every day now. some people stream shows on netflix. i watch the john kirby briefing every day. helene cooper and courtney have made this point that a few weeks ago, there was a perception at least and you may refute this was a reality, but that there were some parameters around whether these systems were
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offensive or defensive in nature and both predicted that either because of or concurrent with what we're seeing out of bucha that those lines have disappeared or will soon. can you speak to that. >> sure. i think we're not trying to divide the phrase offensive from defensive. we're trying to get them weapons and that's what we're calling them. weapons and systems, supporting systems for those weapons that we know they can use to defend their country. that's what our focus is on. how they use them, that's up to them. there have been cases in just the last few days where ukrainians literally in the same battle space are both defending and going on the offense against russian forces. kyiv is a great example. we assessed today that all the russian forcings are out from kyiv and out from around kyiv and into belarus and into russia, but that wasn't by accident or just by the russian plan because as they started to retreat, the ukrainians were going on the offense and striking them as they were
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retreating, using some of the weapons and m ises we've helped provide. we're not dancing too much on the adjectives. we're focused on getting them the stuff we know they can use so well and so quickly. >> when people outside of the helenes and the courtneys start dabbling in the weapons system, but i want to ask you about "the wall street journal" video about the kinds of weapons the russians are using. we'll talk about on the other side. >> okay. >> now we see civilian locations being attacked in mariupol. russia has denied using cluster bombs in ukraine. more than 100 countries have joined a treaty that banned such weapons, though neither ukraine nor russia is a signatory. these release many small bombs as they fly, which can cause widespread civilian harm in highly populated areas. on march 1st, mariupol's city
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council posted photos of missile debris in a residential neighborhood. experts said this is a cluster bomb. the nose cone and tail piece are in tact and didn't leave large impact craters, indicating they separated by impact to release a warhead containing smaller bombs. >> i think something that the western world is waking up to is that the brutality, the indes krim nat targeting of civilians, which is what happens when you deploy cluster bombs is the strategy. it is the point. i wonder if you can speak to that. >> certainly brutality is a tactic that the russians are using inside ukraine. you don't have to look any further than those images to see that. they are indiscriminate in the way they are attacking. they don't care about how many civilians they're killing or how many people they're forcing to flee. this isn't just about a military on a military. this is about the russian military on the ukrainian people, all of them, and they are absolutely not being careful about how they're using.
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in fact, i would argue that in many cases, we're seeing a deliberate effort to go after civilian targets to terrorize the ukrainian people to try to sub gait that country. we can't confirm the use of all these weapons systems. clearly, we're watching this and monitoring as closely as we can, but you are seeing this other piece of the russians ability, especially as they become more frustrated from their lack of progress to attack in an even more ferocious and indiscriminate way going forward. on helene and courtney, those are two really smart pentagon reporters. when they talk weapons systems, believe me, i pay attention. >> they know what they're talking about. to the other end of the spectrum, i want to show you matt gates questioning your boss yesterday. >> this is the most capable, the most combat credible force in the world. it has been and will be so going forward.
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>> not if we continue on this path, not if we embrace socialism. >> the fact you're embarrassed by your country -- >> no, no, i'm embarrassed by your leadership. i wish you were not -- to china. you know what? that is so, that is so disgraceful that you would sit here and conflate your failures with the failures of the uniformed service members. you guys said that russia would overrun ukraine in 36 days. that the taliban would be kept at bay for months. you blew those calls. maybe we would be better in the national defense agency would work less on wokism? >> have you ever even thought about what we've donened our allies have done? >> for people watching closely, matt gaetz is under investigation for child sex trafficking allegations of it. i want to focus on what secretary austin said though because i think it's the most
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important thing. has it occurred to you and critics of what we have done and our allies that russia has not overrun ukraine because of what we've done. and what our allies have done. have you ever thought about that. i hadn't heard that yet. there's so much horror, there's so much human tragedy, that maybe we should consider that russia hasn't overrun ukraine and we thought it was possible they might because of what we've done. tell me more. >> he's exactly right. 100% right. what he's referring to there is not just the incredible pace and size and scale of the security assistance that we're providing and how fast it's getting there, but the training that underpins that for eight years. we have been training and helping mentor the ukrainian armed forces so it's not just about how they're using the material. it's how well they're using that material. it's the organizational and leadership training that we provided them. they have a very strong, functioning, noncommissioned
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officer corps in large part because of western training so they can use initiative on the moment in the battlefield. i think the secretary is right. there's a lot to be said for all the support ukraine has got. we recognize they're in a hot war and they're seeing their families killed and the destruction is extensive. which is why we understand we've got to keep that support going. we're not resting on laurels. we know we have to continue to help ukraine defend itself so that they can push back on the russians and they have. it's stunning what this ukrainian armed forces have been able to do against what was supposed to be one of the most powerful militaries in the world. that they have been able to keep them from achieving any of their strategic objectives. it's truly stunning, but it isn't by accident. not on the ukrainians part and the west and united states' part. >> i wonder since it was viewed as possible that the russians could dominate the country in a
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short amount of time, the fact it's clear that they won't and i believe general millie testified this week that this war could go on for years. how is your building recalibrated and adjusted to that new reality? >> our focus right now is on the fight that's going on right now and continuing the security assistance and making sure that they are able to continue to fight back because we believe that as the russians concentrate their efforts on the donbas and the south, the east and south of the country, that the fighting could become protracted and bloodier. it appears the russians are about to put more energy into that. long-term, we'll be thinking about what do we need to adjust our procurement process, to restock ourselves so we can restock ukraine. we also need to think through the forced posture in europe. no matter how this war ends.
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the security situation in europe has changed and will stay changed because of what mr. putin has decided to do so we're having active conversations with allies and partners about what our posture, the united states posture in europe ought to be going forward. whether we need more troops and more in europe. >> just amazing that, i don't know that people thought that a post world war ii era would be active decisions with the pentagon and allies about troop redeployment in europe. we're grateful to you for making time with us. thank you so much. >> thank you. when we come back, why so many of the far right's loudest voices and most loyal disciples, you just saw one there, of the twice impeached disgraced ex-president continue to side against democracy, against nato, and essentially by default, with putin. the latest right wing embrace is
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our next story. plus, new reporting from nbc news on the staggering number of capitol rioters who have been identified by online sleuths but have yet to be prosecuted. and we continue to keep an eye on the house of representatives on whether to hold two former aides in contempt of congress. don't go anywhere. contempt of . don't go anywhere.
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i know there's conflicting information about dupuytren's contracture. i thought i couldn't get treatment yet?
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well, people may think that their contracture has to be severe to be treated, but it doesn't. if you can't lay your hand flat on the table, talk to a hand specialist. but what if i don't want surgery? well, then you should find a hand specialist certified to offer nonsurgical treatments. what's the next step? visit today to get started. the bull work had a fitting name for this this morning. the antiukraine caucus. those 63 house republicans who voted against a nonbinded
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resolution yesterday expressing support for nato. that was it. probably guess some of their names. gaetz, gosar, green. among the 63 who have explained their reasoning, some insisted nato was a relic of the cold war. beyond that though, politico writes this, quote, the lone republican to explain his concerns on the floor was congressman andy harris from maryland. he said the inclusion of language referencing internal threats from proponents of liberalism within democracies was enough on hungary and poland. quote, that is a progressive left wing dog whistle for poland and hungary. why in the world in a preamble would we continue to attack one of our nato allies. it's unnecessary and unwise. joining us now, founder of country over party and former republican, former republican
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congressman, david jolly, national chairman of the serve america movement. both msnbc contributors. i want to start with you, david, the inability of republicans in america to stand with nato in an hour of war. >> it's a very dangerous moment and i use that word specifically. listen, this was not a small gesture by 60 plus republicans in the congress to refuse to affirm the value of nato. this was the representation of freedom and of democracy in the western world and why it is dangerous and this goes to a little bit of what john kirby said would have to be decided on the policy front. you can affirm the threat to nato to the broader question that the united states is going to face. do we reposition larger, more permanent forces of united states service members in a
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noncombat or military role on the eastern front? do we shore up the western side of ukraine to ensure bad actors like russia cannot move further? that is a significant policy decision regarding the deployment of massive resources, the positioning of active duty military and if we are engulfed in this negative partisanship led by the biden administration, republicans have to disavow it. even if it's as basic as affirming our commitment to the free world, then we are not in the position to have a sober debate about the world stage for the next ten years. >> it is not a grass roots sentiment to be anti-nato. it is driven by the loudest voices in the axis of evil. tucker carlson, putin, donald trump, nato bashing, democracy indifferent movement and i wonder what it says to you that
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63 house republicans, matt dowd, are ambivalent at best about nato. >> i'm actually surprised it wasn't more. i know how awful this is, but to me, this is not a surprising move by a republican party who no longer wants to stand up for democracy at home. why would they think we would be part of an alliance who wants to stand up for democracy in europe and around the world. if they're willing to accept autocratic policies here, why would we think they would be willing to make the sacrifice for another country? one thing about america, you think about this. we have a flawed history. america has a very flawed history. the number one ideal of our history, of our founding is self-determination and the idea that all men and women are created equal, but we haven't always lived up to that. we haven't always supported emerging democracies.
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we haven't always gone out of our way to push over, and matter of fact, we've gone out of our way at times to prop up autocracy, but part of what being an american is is to push more and more for that ideal here and that ideal around the world, but this republican party and it goes to a lot of the conversations i know we've all had, is there's a huge majority of the party that fundamentally believes in the idea of christian nationalism. and the idea of christian nationalism is it doesn't matter if you're a democracy as long as you're basically a ththeocratic state -- that's why they don't want to push back against putin because they believe he's establishing christian nationalism in russia. that's why they're doing what they're here to roll back all the gains that have been done over the past hundred years here
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because they're worried in their mind that we're losing quote unquote the christian nationalism that they want here. and so at the basis of all this, it doesn't surprise me it's become a majority part of the party and as i said, why would we think they would support an alliance that pushes for democracy around the world when they don't even support it here. >> and it's happening in real time. cpac, which used to really be, well, i won't say used to. it's where the fringist used to go and celebrate each other in weird hotels. now they're going to hungary. this is the writeup of their embrace. while orban's appeal may be illusive, his attraction for tucker and other elements of the right is obvious. a substantial faction of the conservative movement now
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regards his government, which sensors lgbt content, demonizes immigrants and ethnic minorities, extols virtues of the traditional family and globalist of the eu as a political model. in other words, orban gives them that sweet autocratic dopamine hit they crave without the whole rotting corpse genocide thing. this is who they have become. david jolly. >> in large part because what donald trump introduced into the conservative movement is that a strong man form of government actually okay and desirable if it delivers the christian white nationalist agenda. so what you are seeing is donald trump has given permission to disavow the basic tenants of democracy and say well if the strong man can deliver our agenda, that's okay. the problem is strong men around
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the world commit atrocities. strong men commit war crimes. by embracing strong men around the world, you are elevating and empowering someone like putin who has evil in his heart. who deploys military to commit evil acts that if these men and women never face judgment here on earth, certainly their fates will bring them their own form of judgment that they well deserve. these are the people that ultimately are lifted up when the united states steps away from defending democracy on the world stage. defending freedom. defending a republic and it is because donald trump introduced it several years ago. so if you look at how donald trump introduced this, there would not have been 60 republicans five years ago. there are today because he has brought along that faction within today's republican party. it's the yolk that today's republican leaders like mccarthy and mcconnell have chosen to bear and tolerate. >> yeah. to david's point, matt, in 2018, the u.s. senate -- just want to read this to what david just
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said. in 2018, a bill reaffirming america's support for nato passed the u.s. senate 97-2. it was a rebuke to trump who had just gone on one of his first foreign stops and refused to affirm america's commitment to article five even though america's the only one to really cash out on that after 9/11. some russia experts think that putin is specifically emboldened by the fact that a vote that was 97-2 four years ago could go down to 63 detractors to unequivocal support for nato. do you think the republicans are directly emboldening putin's war crimes? >> absolutely. all autocratic -- as putin has
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watched our democracy diminish, even if there's no contact with them, he's emboldened by that because what autocrats want is not successful democracies and not for people standing up for their rights. they can isolate themselves in certain pocket, but they know as democracies emerge and deliver what people want and give people the rights and the justice they deserve, it puts a bad light and puts them in a bad situation. so absolutely. to me, all of these dots are incredibly connected and the only thing that i might disagree with david about is i don't think donald trump caused the republican party to do this. i think donald trump released. he gave permission to an element of this country to do what they've always wanted to do. to become what they've always wanted to become. donald trump basically opened the door and said come on in. it's fine. i'll stand with you. and when they did that, what we discovered was 75 to 80% of the
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republican party was aligned with this idea that democracy doesn't matter as long as we get what they want and what they want is white christian nationalism. >> that's so disturbing. thank you so much for lifting that up and spending time with us. great to see you both. we are keeping an eye on the house of representatives. house expected to vote any minute now on those contempt charges for former trump aides, peter navarro and dan scavino. the latest on the vote, plus new reporting about the massive effort underway to identify and prosecute hundreds more capitol rioters. that's next. stay with us. capitol rierots. that's next. stay with us ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪
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we're watching the house floor as members of the chamber get set to vote to consider holding ex-trump adviser, peter navarro and dan scavino in contempt of congress. the committee is seeking information the two men might have about the riot on the nation's capitol that day and as we wait for that vote, more news about justice department's effort to prosecute everyone who took part in the insurrection. despite more than 775 arrests already, doj is finding there may in fact be more cases than
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lawyers to prosecute them. ryan riley, who has covered the cases tr month, has new reporting that says the so-called sedition hunters who have been helping the fbi identify participants have identified hundreds of additional rioters. maybe 30% into arrests with more to come. joining us now, ryan riley. also, harry litman. ryan, tell me more about your reporting. >> i've been keeping in touch with this network of citizens over the past year really since the january 6th attack and that they've done is remarkable. they have a bunch of cases that are ready to go. ready for the fbi to take up and for doj to prosecute and they're wondering what's happening with some of these behind the scenes. this is a massive investigation. they've brought in a lot of resources, but at this point, it's really about docket management because you have all of these cases that need to be brought forward, but you have
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all these cases that need to be brought to fruition. there are more than 500 cases outstanding that haven't resulted in a guilty plea or gone to trial and as these cases go on, they're going to have to figure out where they're going to spend their time as these cases move forward. in the meantime, we have all these cases out there that the sleuths are waiting for action on. >> harry, what is going on behind the scenes when you hear reporting like this? >> just exactly that. a huge log jam. but it doesn't really matter. they'll take all the time they need. they'll get all the resources they need. they've asked congress in their new budget for 130 folks just to do this. and you know, it doesn't matter. you cannot close up shop as long as there are people potentially out there. as long as they come up, they'll keep prosecuting. the big thing is you don't want this effort to drain resources from the more, from the very
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important, more important, i'll say, investigations they've now opened into political officials and the phony slates. but i don't think they will. they're straightforward, but they just involve 1 foot in front of the other. if that road goes for miles and miles, they will walk to the end of the road full stop. >> one of the things we spent a lot of time here is on the parallel probes and whether or not there's an actual tension between them is a known unknown if you will. but in terms of their public posture, obviously one is a congressional committee with a lot more latitude to do things publicly. one operates by law and by its ethos privately. i want to show you something liz cheney said about the more public probe about what is going on with these refusal to comply with congressional subpoenas. >> in the case of both witnesses, mr. speaker, the
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committee would rather have their testimony than have to move this contempt citation. when you hear my colleagues attack the select committee, remember, mr. scavino and mr. navarro have chosen not to appear. they did not have to make this choice, but they did. in america, no one is above the law. neither mr. trump, nor mr. scavino nor mr. navarro is some form of royalty. there is no such thing in america as the privileges of the crown. every citizen has a duty to comply with a subpoena. >> among the many other really vital functions of this committee, harry, one of them has been to see a republican, a cheney at that, become a one-woman pounding of the drum for the return to the rule of law. this very idea she's talking about that no one is above the law. not trump. not scavino.
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not mr. navarro. what does that portend and does doj see it that way? and if it does, if this, then that. would you expect prosecutions for contempt of congress? >> let me get to that in a second. what does it portend? a great set of hearings because she's there. kissenger is there, but we don't have people in the peanut gallery, republicans, to just interrupt at every moment. so when they start later in the spring, they're going to be more dramatic. second, they'd rather have the testimony, man, is that true, as to scavino and meadows, probably the least replaceable witnesses in the probe and the cost on contempt is they're taken out of commission. scavino is at trump's shoulder the entire time of january 6th and can give information as nobody can. will the doj prosecute? look how long it's been with
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meadows and there's indications it's the office of lega counsel, but there may be some support for that in the doj annals for very senior officials. where's a guy like scavino show up there? he's by far the more important of the two. on the one hand, a former caddie who's basically just there to get stuff for trump. on the other, the deputy chief of staff. he'll run the same claim and we will see. he's the harder case and the more important case than is navarro. >> do you have any insights into the pace of decisions on these referrals? the bannon prosecution is underway. the meadows one seems very much stalled. >> yeah, i think harry sort of nailed it there. it was a lot easier to start
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with the bannon case because he wasn't a white house official. he hadn't been in the white house for years before the subpoena. but i think you know just broadly speaking, the committee does have a lot more leeway to go down past that doj and the fbi have to check a lot more boxes before they go down. it's a wider standing probe and i think that you know, we're going to see these cases continue to come out from doj as they build and build, but you know, they have to stay within that framework of potential violations of federal law and there's going to be a lot of checks and balances instead of just the committee vote over on the house side where they can sort of decide to explore what they want to explore and look into issues they think need to be brought to the public's attention. >> thank you for spending some time with us. when we come back, we'll go live up to capitol hill as the house of representatives get set to vote to hold two trump advisers in contempt of congress. stay with us.
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thanks, dad. that's right, robert. and it's never too early to learn you could save with america's number one motorcycle insurer. that's right, jamie. but it's not just about savings. it's about the friends we make along the way. you said it, flo. and don't forget to floss before you brush. your gums will thank you. -that's right, dr. gary. -jamie? sorry, i had another thought so i got back in line. what was it? [ sighs ] i can't remember. let's get back up to the u.s. capitol, where the house is about to vote on contempt of congress charges. garrett, what is the principle that republicans are railing against to, if this is even a thing anymore, not if you're hypocritical, when they would like to speak to the secretary
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of state or someone for one of their investigations? >> reporter: it's tough to track. the republican arguments in this debate have bounced around. i've heard it argued that scavino is a good guy, and a dad, and he shouldn't have to go to jail. the argument was made by jim banks, who would have been a member of this committee had speaker pelosi said he shouldn't be a part of the committee. that's one of the arguments. the others go back to where this all started, the idea that the committee is partisan, and trying to deep donald trump off the ballot. your point is a good one, and i talked to some committee members, asking, do you weaken the subpoenas long term if you aren't able to compel people?
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they argue, they're getting more and more people coming in than the folks who are not coming in. but this is a risk for this congress and future congresses, if you get to a situation where you're arguing about contempt, and you're waiting for someone to take that referral and do something with it, there may be people who risk going to court rather than provide the testimony they need. and this is the future you're seeing play out here in the way this investigation is unfolding. >> but even liz cheney, the vice chair of the committee, nobody wants mr. scavino to go to the jail. she would simply like him to comply with the committee and testify as others have done. what differentiates the others from mr. scavino? >> absolutely nothing. that's the argument we're seeing democrats and committee members
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make today. the fact that ivanka trump testified yesterday, that jared kushner testified last week, without even being subpoenaed to do so, it's become a powerful argument for the committee to say, this is your patriotic duty. if you're taking a paycheck from the u.s. government, you don't just get to say i have no further responsibility when the government is investigating what went on, on your watch. there is nothing that makes scavino or navarro different in this way. for navarro, who has been out quite publicly, including on this network, talking about january 6th, then trying to stiff-arm the committee, that doesn't fly. and that's the argument the committee members are making, and that they suspect will win
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the day. >> garrett, thank you. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. k. ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. and, we're back! it's time to see which chew provides the longest-lasting flea and tick protection. bravecto's the big winner. 12 weeks of powerful protection, nearly 3 times longer than any other chew. bravo, bravecto! bravo! never settle with power e*trade. it has powerful, easy-to-use tools to help you find opportunities, 24/7 support when you need answers, plus some of the lowest options in futures contract prices around. [ding] get e*trade and start trading today.
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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we're grateful. "the beat with ari melber" starts right now. hi, ari. >> thanks so much. welcome to "the beat." we're tracking breaking news. we're watching the house where there is a vote coming this hour on holding trump aides peter navarro and dan scavino in criminal contempt of congress. ignoring or defying the su


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