tv Ayman MSNBC April 23, 2022 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT
senator for the state of utah, from 1977 to 2019. his 42 years senate tenure made him the longest serving republican u.s. senator in history, and the longest serving u.s. senator from utah. he retired in 2019, and of course warren hatch was the former president of the united states senate. and at various times during his career, excuse me, he also served as the chairman of the senate judiciary committee and the senate finance committee. senator hatch survived by his wife elaine and their six children. d thei>> coming up this hour, hw governor ron desantis's revenge on disney could help his -- hurt his own supporters. plus, is kevin mccarthy's chances of being how speaker over before it even begins? marjorie taylor greene can't recall anything about the capitol attacks. surprise, surprise. our panel will dive into the 80 plus times she feigned ignorance on the stand just
this week. i am a man when he dean, let's get started. here is the problem with the republican party of 2022, there is no limit, nothing is out of line, nothing is too extreme for them. sure, there can be public outcry, there can be condemnation, there can be some strongly worded letters, but it doesn't stop the gop from going for broke. even if it means completely and totally deviating from the core values and principles. that's what we are seeing with the florida republican party. they're blind march towards extremism has led them to abandon both long-standing political philosophy and actually their own voters. it's equal parts fascinating and frightening. look how quickly small
government have embraced out and out autocracy. by now, we are all familiar with florida's don't say gay law. it sparked quite the backlash as it aims to erase entire groups of -- the pushback was so significant that even businesses started condemning the legislation including disney. although we should note that disney waited a long time before actually speaking up against the bill. but that didn't matter. it didn't matter how laid or -- deceased on condemnation was. ron desantis took the free speech as an insult to him. this week, he retaliated, ordering his legislative to strip mickey mouse and co-of their special district-ing privileges in the state. folks, let's be clear about this, this is textbook a photo -- authoritarianism. wielding the extra bets of the state to punish private
citizens and businesses, what a far cry from reagan's foot republicanism. and establishing the status, the gdp raised florida's texas by as much as two billion dollars. and last time i checked, republicans were against raising taxes, right? it's shocking until you remember that so often in the 24 centuries republicanism, it's not about adherence to doctrines of the past, just about one thing -- it's about cruelty. cruelty is always the point. the lgbtq community has to be punished, and anyone who criticizes the punishment also has to be punished. that is the gop in 2022, folks. that is the gop in florida. that is the gop in florida, in 2022. i am joined by -- thank you so much senator for joining us, i appreciate you making some time for us. so parts of governor desantis's
agenda are objectively cruel i don't think anyone can look at this and say what you just saw happen just with him mobilizing the legislator to punish a company that a disagree with a bill that he wanted to pass. explain why he is doing this. because you know florida politics way better than i do. >> thanks for having me on. it's not easy to explain because as you said in your opening, it makes no sense, especially coming from the republican party. the don't say gay bill was so controversial and difficult and the republican -- was so frustrated by the messaging, for once the democrats got the messaging right, and they kept saying that this is not what the bill is about. and they kept going on, and on, and on and i was trying to describe to people, in debate, on the, floor in committee about this bill that you are looking at the four corners of the bill, but you also have to look at the way it makes people feel.
when you had ready right guard for -- she talked about creating hold,, kind compassionate good people in schools. and by cutting out a whole class of people from discussion and potentially young children's parents and family structure, you are making people feel terrible about themselves and shameful, and hiding. and also for the teachers who are involved in that as well. so the bill just makes people feel terrible and the republicans are so frustrated that there was such a backlash. and then of course when disney came out, and joined many other corporations and said that they refused to agree with this bill and that they're gonna try to fight it, then there was just revenge governance that went on and the ultimate cancel culture. so we have this special session this past week on redistricting which is a whole other story of partisanship and gerrymandering. and in a few hours time, they put these bills on us about the
special district and also social media bill that we had no notice of, and the process is really terrible. it was complete malpractice on the part of the legislature. they ran through these bills and two days that have had so many ramifications for local government and local taxpayers, as you mention. and all because disney spoke out against desantis's signature bill, don't say gay bill. signature bill, don't say >> isd understanding that the gop is simply overreaching here? it's one thing to politically posture but they are actually passing bills that have serious ramifications for the residents of florida. i understand politics requires politicians to bluster and sound tough and act tough to their constituents, but as you described, they are passing critical infrastructure in a matter of days without legislators reviewing it. >> absolutely. a lot of the problem is, you
say there's overreach with these bills, multiple, multiple bills are being mitigated in court right now. we are spending so much money on legal fees. upwards of $600 an hour for outside counsel. there are dozens of lawsuits going on against don't say gay, the anti crt bill, this gerrymandered congressional math. there are so many lawsuits going on and the overreach is extreme. they claim to be following the constitution and they purposefully vote for bills that they know are unconstitutional. although it's very frustrating what's going on in florida, the republican legislature is rolling over to desantis. we no longer have separation of powers. they refuse summoned bells in any way, they refuse to analyze them, especially in the special session but even before in the regular session, we are not managing to deal with the issues that affect everyday floridians, inflation, property
insurance, affordable housing, so we are going -- all these culture war bills -- >> my colleagues, who my work, with unlike very much are -- they don't agree with it. but there's one leader and it's led to complete era knee in our state. >> let me ask you about something that you brought up very quickly if i can and that is the gerrymandering. florida republicans just passed to a gerrymandered -- that severely limits the power of black floridians, it dilutes them. you protested that legislation. tell us why and what is likely to happen. you're talking about legal challenges to it? >> before it was even signed there was a case in court. what happened was the process work the way was supposed to do in the senate and in the house, even more so in the senate. we passed on the bipartisan fashion in both chambers agreed to maps that were fair. the senate in the house maps
are for the state are not being challenged. the congressional maps also were fair. i voted for that. and then the governor threatened to veto them and he did. there was a moment in time when the legislature held firm that the end of special session. and they waited for the governor's veto, they waited for a special -- they called the special session three weeks later, and they decided not to propose any other maps and cave to the governor. that's number one the complete a top russi. number two, the map, as you, said takes away to black congresspeople, ball demings and al waltz and seats are now completely diluted and will no longer be held by black congresspeople. so world only left with about two. it also adds four republican leading districts. you will have 70% republican coverage in the congress when
republicans only make up 36% of the voters. >> and why? my question is why. will the legislator give up their -- congressional maps as you're describing it basically seeding that power again to governor that ron desantis? does he just have this kind of authoritarian grip on his party there or do they just see him as the apparent of national politics and there will be -- national republican party fell behind donald trump? >> i think it's both. i think he's just incredibly popular, certainly among the republicans, not the democrats. the question will be in november how did the independents do. but he's very popular. the legislature really held firm during session and try to really follow a fair process. so the way they just capitulated after a couple of weeks is astounding and everybody is up for reelection.
all 40 senators and 120 wraps. the president of the senate is running for statewide agriculture position, so everyone is protecting the left flank. and they feel like they have to have desantis's endorsement. and now we see, if you cross him, he will come after you. as disney is in the crosshairs, and individual legislators are as well. they completely rolled over. it was so hard to see and watch my colleagues do this and be part of the process that just fell that every democrat voted against all of these bills in the special session. >> i was going to say, as i said in my opening remarks, i am not aware of a governor or another american politician who's use the levers of power in this capacity to punish a company that disagreed with a policy the way rhonda scent is has been able to do so against disney so quickly. senator ten tina polsky, i
appreciate your insights. coming, up does one dumb michigan democrat have the blueprint of shutting down republican talking points in the midterms. but first, my friend richard louis with the headlines. >> good evening to. you some breaking news for you this hour. also some sad news. former utah senator or one hash died saturday afternoon at the age of 88 according to the orange-y hatch foundation. his 42 year career in the senate made him the longest serving republican senator in u.s. history. he first took office in 1977, retired then in 2019. hatch chaired the senate committee on health education, labor and pensions, as well as the senate judiciary committee and the senate finance committee. 2015, he became the president of pro tempore of the senate. he was also noted as his career as a musician and composer, according to a statement of his foundation, he died peacefully surrounded by his family. he survived by his wife of 65 years and their six children.
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of slender will go away. of course, that will not happen if you know anything about american politics, and this week a new voice show democrats a way to fight back. enter michigan state senator mallory mcmorris. she gave a forceful response to attacks by one of her colleagues, and it's already being discussed as a model playbook for democrats across the country to follow. watch. >> i am the biggest threat to your hollow, hateful, scheme. because you can't claim that you are targeting marginalized kids in the name of, quote, parental lights if another parent is standing up to say no. so then what? you dehumanize and marginalize me. you say that i am one of them, you say she's a groomer, she supports pedophilia, she wants children to believe that they were responsible for slavery, and to feel bad about themselves because their white. so who am i? i am a straight, white, christian, married, suburban
mom. who knows that the very notion that learning about slavery or redlining, or systemic racism somehow means that children are being taught to feel better hate themselves because they are white is absolute nonsense. we are not responsible for the past. we also cannot change the past. we cannot pretend that it didn't happen or deny people their very right to exist. i want every child in this day to feel scene, heard, and supported. not marginalized and targeted because they are not straight, white, and christian. we cannot let hateful people tell you otherwise to scapegoat and different from the fact that they are not doing anything to fix the real issues that impact peoples lives. and i know that hate will only win if people like me standby and let it happen. so i want to be very clear right now, call me whatever you want, i hope you brought in a few dollars, i hope and make
you feel good last night. i know who i am. i know my but my faith and service means and what it calls for in this moment. we will not let hate win. >> and that, democrats, is how you do it. let's bring in our saturday night palin, david jolly wrote former republican congressman from florida, the national truman of serve the movement, yellow moody and joyce vance is back with us. it's good to have all three of you with us. danielle, i will start with you, your reaction to what her speech. my ride and saying that that is how democrats can propose respond when republicans make their baseless accusations? >> it should absolutely be the way democrats respond. here's a thing about senator mick morrow, she was honest,
she was authentic, she said and it all the things that democrats have been too afraid to do which is take on the culture wars head on. the bully and the schoolyard is not going to go away because you pretend they don't exist when they keep hitting you over, and over again. she did not defend herself. she stated who she was clearly an arctic clearly and laid into the ways that republicans are currently feeling the american people. that is why it needs to be done. she is the blueprint not because pollsters told or what to say, not because she did some sort of focus group, but she spoke her mind, she spoke her truth, and she stood up for herself. >> most importantly, she did not put her head in the sand and hope it would blow over. david, senator mcmorrow was on msnbc this morning, here's what she said. >> we don't have to get into the weeds on how complicated these issues are. they are not. this is hatred and it's distracting from the real issues. and we have to tell the truth.
>> do you think democrats are over complicating these issues and they just don't want to get drawn into a muscling with the republican party? >> i think the senator did something very unique in today's democratic politics which is, she stepped on to the republicans playing field and beat them at their own game. and recognize what she did and denouncing hates, she also declared her own personal faith. she suggested to republicans, listen, i come from the same faith compass that you do. and the republican party today is an anti-christian party. if you are asking, for instance in the state of florida, to put a teacher back in the closet and they can no longer recognize their same-sex partner, or if you are going to humiliate a student as the sitting governor did who wears a mask, or if you are going to tell children of all races that you cannot celebrate your heritage and recognize the
socioeconomic impacts of your own race, if you are doing that, you are marginalizing and dehumanizing people. that is an to thread occult to the christian faith. the basis of all religions, of all faiths, frankly, whether there is a daily are not, it's love. is love. and what she said is republicans who like to profess love, you are actually practicing and antithetical politic to all of that. so for republicans who wish to throw your bible in our face, please stop disavowing the most fundamental premise of that which is love. that's with the senator did. the government is here to represent everybody and i want to give voice to everybody, and the republican part of the six of today practice division and they denounced people that don't look like the right christian american that they wanted to be. that was the power. it was a unique moment for national democrats.
>> joyce, in missouri, and openly gay state representative who grew up in a conservative part of the state gave a forceful speech in response to the gop legislation that would ban trans gender grossed from competing on girl sports teams. watch this moment. >> thank god i made it out, i think every day of the kids who are still there who haven't made it out, who haven't escaped from this kind of bigotry. gentlemen, i am not afraid of you anymore. because you are going to lose. you may when this today, but you are going to lose. >> joyce, you are from alabama, do you think arguments like these can make headway, even in conservative parts of the country? >> i think that they can. the question is what part of the political audience did they reach? these sorts of speeches are what the democratic base need to hear, to turn out in numbers
and the polls certainly for the midterm elections and beyond. because what these two have in common is that they are genuine. they are authentic. they are authentically angry about what republicans have been doing. it's not just about the democratic party that's a big tenet. america is a big tenet. we're supposed to tolerate other peoples to francis so we can live our own lives. that is one of the precepts that the four fathers built into the constitution. it was aspirational in many ways. but the story of america as we continue to involve more people. so this is something new, it's something exciting. to the extent that this is a road for democrats, it's not that they should copy these, although the michigan manifesto from senator mcmorrow is very exciting and profound, but for democrats across the country, even in red states, to speak
their truth as daniel says, to be authentic, to express anger at what is being done to america, could be the most powerful thing happening in america politics this year. >> let's just hope they meet the moment ahead of the midterms and all of this, as i was saying, mud slinging from the republican. panel, stick around for me, we have a lot more to discuss. coming, up the case against marjorie taylor greene, how group of voters to go to court to try to ban her from running for reelection. we will tell you about that and more. t an more (vo) wildfires have reached historic levels. as fires keep raging, the need to replant trees keeps growing. so subaru is growing our commitment to protect the environment. in partnership with the national forest foundation, subaru and our retailers are proud to help replant 1 million trees to help restore our forests. subaru. more than a car company.
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we have to be able to repair the enamel on a daily basis. with pronamel repair toothpaste, we can help actively repair enamel in its weakened state. it's innovative. my go to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. this week marks the first -- january 6th insurrection. georgia congresswoman marjorie taylor greene testified at an unprecedented disqualification hearing that focused on whether she is constitutionally barred from holding office because of her role in the offense of that day. but congresswoman memory seemed
to fall short on the stand. it happened quite a lot, vanity fair summed it up best with this headline. marjorie taylor greene apparently can't recall anything that happened in the last three years. in fact, more than three hours of testimony later, she said variations of i don't remember more than 80 times. >> you are aware that somebody was going to unlock the constitutional process to be obliged -- [inaudible] >> you may answer. >> you may answer the question. >> i had no knowledge of any attempt. so that's a question i can't answer. this is the party that is working very hard to steal this election and stop donald j
trump from being our president for four more years! trump isn't it, and he will stay in the fight regardless of the outcome. that's right, we have his back. he should be our president right now. but the dirty rotten democrats stole the election. >> all right, let's bring back our panel to discuss this and more. david, which was your take away from yesterday's hearing? >> bless her heart, i guess. that's as they say. in georgia language. she's clearly -- you know what strikes me about this, ayman, it's the similarity between with marjorie taylor greene tried to do this weekend with kevin mccarthy did. and we often talk about kevin mccarthy trying to wrangle this caucus with these crazy rebels, like marjorie taylor greene and matt gates. kevin mccarthy is much retailer greene, and marjorie taylor greene's kevin mccarthy, and they're both donald trump. they will say anything to
address the passions of the moment, and then, walk it back when the personal consequences for their own political fortunes. what i saw in the state was a politician willing to lie under oath, but also continue to try to elevate their own brand above the nation's needs. that is true of kevin mccarthy. that is two of donald trump. that is true of mitch mcconnell. that is two in a georgia courtroom this week of marjorie taylor greene. >> danielle, in one particular moment that stood out is when marjorie taylor greene was asked if she urged donald trump to impose martial law to stay in power. let's listen. >> you had a means to rescind the election in 2020, and january 20th, 2021, right? >> yes. >> and in those meetings, you discussed with him your avid idea that there should be marcia lost declared in the united states. >> no, i don't recall ever discussing this. >> are you saying it didn't happen? or are you saying -- >> i don't recall ever saying that.
>> it's kind of strange that she doesn't say no, she just says she doesn't recall. >> i mean, i find marjorie taylor greene absolutely color, and it's an embarrassment to the institution of congress that she is actually part of. i will start there. but i mean, you listen to her, she says that she doesn't recall 80 times. you know, when the trump children, right? when they were interviewed without 16 commission, both the trump jr. and eric trump did the same thing, over 500 times, pleading the fifth. we all know what they believe and what they say, because they have social media. they use it all the time, right? so we understand their truth. they believe that republicans should rule supreme. they do not believe in democracy. they do not believe and government by and for the people. they believe in authoritarianism, and the idea, that you know, you want martial law to be put in place, to suppress the will of the people,
this isn't just marjorie taylor greene saying this, this is the republican party, as david just said. we cannot separate these about apples, and say that it's not the entire orchard. that is foiled here. it is the entirety of the republican party, and you can't pull these people apart. this is who they are. this is the ideology that they believe in. >> joyce, i really enjoyed following you on twitter yesterday, as you are providing realtime commentary off the hearing. green didn't just accused pelosi of treason on video. she also led a petition to have her impeached for the crimes of treason, back in 2019, and she actually got nearly 200 and thousand signatures, yet some how, does she not know that we have eyes and ears to remember these things, because she is basically on that standing. it's hard for me to imagine that it is not a lie for her to say that she does not recall, when she led and spearheaded this effort. >> you know, people can have
failures of memory. and something that you're used to doing, as a prosecutor, talking about legitimate failures of memory. someone is asked what color dress someone wore six years ago, they really might not recall whether it's blue or green. but when someone is asked whether they were involved in an insurrection against their government, it's a very unlikely that they'll have no recollection of those facts. so, you know, the martial law question, the failure to remember. overtime, these i don't recall's come a little bit less credible, as the hearing goes on. and something, ayman, that you and i have talked about before, the tsv, this was a criminal proceeding for perjury, it probably wouldn't fly. the cushions went specific, and she wasn't nailed down. in georgia state perjury proceedings, i think it's not something that's gonna happen here. but in the court of public opinion where we can use our common sense, and listen to marjorie taylor greene, talking about conversations that she had, a brand-new congresswoman
go into the white house, being summoned to meet with the president. and she doesn't remember whether they talked about the imposition of martial law. that absolutely defies credulity. there is no way, really, that you can believe her when she gives this testimony. >> yeah, and i certainly hope that judges as well does not fall for the 80 times of i don't recall. we certainly hope that common sense as well prevails among that judge. david, you had a house minority leader kevin mccarthy voice his support for greene on twitter, saying this process is undemocratic, and accusing marc elias of filing the case against her. he did it we, should note, it was florida congress -- excuse me, florida congressman matt gates was also at yesterday's hearing, showing his support for greene. and these endorsements, by both the party leader and gauge, just show that she got the support of the gop, does it not? >> well, yeah. in terms of representation that political leadership in the gop
today, yes. i think what you're seeing and kevin mccarthy is the reality of someone who's desperate to become speaker, and needs every vote he can get. as the race for speaker sits today, kevin mccarthy needs 218 votes on the house floor from republicans. he does not have that without marjorie taylor greene and matt gates and others. and so, what his strike is to run up the score in november, should it be a big year for republicans, good to republicans get the seats 240, 250, 2060. chicken lead behind marjorie taylor greene and gates. but with the caucus today, he can't, or he will not be speaker of the house, which is the only motivating factor today in politics for kevin mccarthy which is speakership. >> that will, stick around, we're gonna squeeze in a quick break. then, we're gonna talk about kevin mccarthy's absolutely terrible week. terrible week.
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this week, house minority leader kevin mccarthy found himself caught up in a war of words with himself. >> let me be very clear to all of you, and i've been very clear to the president. he bears responsibility for his words and actions, no ifs, aunts or buts. i asked him personally today, does he hold responsibility for what happened? does he feel bad about what happened? he told me he does have some responsibility for what happened. and he'd need to acknowledge that. >> did you tell house republicans on the january 11th phone call, that president trump told you he agreed if he bore some responsibility for january 6th, as chairman thompson's letter indicates? >> i'm not sure what call your talking about. >> so it's no secret that mccarthy has been jockeying for the speakership, should his party take back the house in 2022. but could his political future
be all but doomed, after this week? my panel is back with me to discuss and more. david, trump told the wall street journal, after he heard the audio, that the audio has not damaged his relationship with mccarthy. but a source from nbc said, but trump isn't really mad, he's got other things on his mind. it's not like he really trusts him. trump is still, as we mentioned many times, a front-runner in 2024. and are mccarthy's days numbered without trump's trust? >> certainly without donald trump's trust. not with trump does not trust kevin mccarthy. given mccarthy is the apparent until somebody else emerges. what i found most fascinating about the events of this week, when they go to the entire gop caucus, ayman, because it's this. the entire gop conference knows, that kevin mccarthy has been lying to the nation for the last year. because they were on that call on january 11th, or january 12th, whenever it happened. and we heard kevin mccarthy say
one thing in private, and saw him say something else to the american people. and i think that's an indictment of the anti republican conference, but it also speaks to why donald trump is willing to continue to elevate kevin mccarthy, until somebody steps in his stance. look, given mccarthy was born, believing it was gonna be speaker of the house. and nothing will stop him, but for one person, who is donald trump. if donald trump would withdraws his support of kevin mccarthy, he lose his second speakership, the first happened in 2015, the next one could happen next january. >> and here is the most disheartening think for kevin mccarthy, danielle. and that same wall street journal, trump refused to answer directly, when asked if he supported mccarthy for speaker. so, if republicans took control of the house in november, while some republicans have come out and support mccarthy, you have representative matt gates floating the idea of how congressman jim jordan is a possible future speaker. and it raises the question, is this the future of the
republican party's leadership, when you have jim jordan's name being floated around, and donald trump perhaps not wanting to get behind kevin mccarthy? >> i mean, they have plenty of despicable people to choose from, ayman. you know, once that have spines other than kevin mccarthy. and we've seen kevin mccarthy play this game so many times over the years, right? he says one thing to donald trump, goes down and gets on the floor, and condensed donald trump. condensed the insurrection, and then, joins around and literally, flies down to mar-a-lago took us donald trump's ring. he isn't a trustworthy person, not like i believe that republicans are trustworthy in the stage that they are in at this point, but he isn't, right? why would you give kevin mccarthy the gavel? but if you're choosing between mccarthy or jim jordan, i mean, my goodness! bless their heart, as david said earlier. that's what i'm thinking about their choices right now. >> joyce, mccarthy spokesperson denied that he told colleagues that he would urge trump to
resign, of course, the audio was released, showing mccarthy did say just that. there is excuse me, there is no law against lying to the american people, or the press as a politician. but could this development have any impact on the january 6th investigation? on the januar y 6t >> well it certainly makes it clear that he has to testify. there's been so much opposition, or rather so much concern on the january six committee about calling one of their own to testify, in essence, being forced to issue a subpoena if they will not testify voluntarily because of the traditional practice of comedy in congress, comedy with an eye, not comedy as an being funny, but this notion of being fair and gentle, and treating people with respect, but the gloves are off. and mccarthy has shown that he has pertinent, relevant knowledge. he needs to testify. if he won't do it voluntarily, he should be subpoenaed.
a lot of his videos -- the text that are being played, demonstrate this ongoing course of conversations between mccarthy and the former president of the united states. and those conversations are highly relevant to trump's state of mind to what he thought, when he, knew what he believed, but he intended. those are all the key issues of how to deal with his culpability or lack of culpability through events on january six, from perpetrating the big lie, congress should absolutely subpoena him and force him to testify. >> panelists, a stick around for me because when we come back, we want to do a dive into one particular angle of the mccarthy tapes. is it ethical for journalists to hold on to information like these tapes when earlier knowledge of that information could have, or could change the political landscape drastically? we will discuss that next. l discuss that next.
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to support underserved communities... ...helping us all move forward financially. pnc bank: see how we can make a difference for you. >> so there's one more angle to the kevin mccarthy saga that we wanted to discuss tonight. and it has to do with the audio recordings themselves. to reporters from the new york times obtained these recordings and waited to release them so they could be used in their upcoming book. the question is, is it okay to hold on to information like this? these journalists are certainly not the first to hold on to explosive information to help promote and sell their books, but when recordings could change the course of history or perhaps have serious political
ramifications, shouldn't history went out? my panel is back with me to discuss this. danielle, set the record straight here. should this audios have been really session was obtained or is it being released at the right time? >> you know, ayman, it should've been released when it was obtained. i'm tired of journalist holding on to pertinent information that could change the course of history so that they could make money. so that they can sell books. we are talking about our democracy here. this is not something that is light, something that should be overlooked. journalists, media has a responsibility to tell the truth, to inform the people, so that we have an informed citizen tree that can make decisions. how can we make decisions about the republican party and how they have devolved if we don't have all of the information that is necessary because you want to sell the book? right? at some point in time, you have to put your country ahead of capitalism. >> david, this isn't the first
time we've seen important news in information being withheld, maybe withheld is not the right word, but withheld until the release of the book. i think of bob woodward back in 2020, he had that incredible book, rage, and in it we discover exactly that the former president said that he knew covid-19 was deadly and worse, than the flu but that didn't come out at the time even though he was publicly downplaying it when he talked to bob woodward privately. what do you think here? should this auto-from mccarthy have been released when the recordings actually happened? >> i think withholding this certainly does a disservice to the reputation and integrity of a free press. look, nothing should compel its release, that's one of the remarkable freedoms we have in the united states. but it begs the question from reporters who are covering the future of our republic, our democracy, similar to reporters
that cover a feminine or war, there is a coming humanity that needs to rise of above the reporting. and in the case of withholding information that can directly impact the view of the country towards its future, you do have to question whether or not profits are being put ahead of the critical information needed. look, at the end of the day, i don't think there's anything we can do about why it has occurred other than to demand greater resources to free information. that's a question that's probably put on all of us and our culture as well. this information could've helped direct the future of the country earlier. it did not. and i think the reporters and the publishers bear that responsibility. >> joyce, are there any legal ramifications for withholding information like this? >> i think knots in this situation. every profession has its own ethical standards, often their bright line rules.
but sometimes there's a lot of gray. this falls into a gray area, legally. something you have to seriously contemplate in this setting, though, is that these steps have been made, they were sitting out there, why weren't they made available? for instance by whoever take them. not by the reporters who were able to find them later on, but by the person who had them in their possession at the time of trump's second impeachment. why did they come to light so late in the game? i'm more inclined to put blame where blame is due, on whoever made the tape, on the people who sided on these footballs and where wear of them and didn't disclose this information to impeachment managers when it could've made a real difference. because if trump had been convicted during the second impeachment, he would've been forever barred from running again for office. that's something that could really change the future and the trajectory of this country. we >> david, you were the politician out of the four of, us or former politician, i
should note, how common is it that a recording like this is mate? the fact that this was a republican leadership call highly sensitive, i would argue, it's gotta be troubling for the republican party to know that their phone calls, even their own members are recording these conversations and perhaps using them for political leverage. i have to think that is rare, but then again i don't know with the state of our politics in this country are. >> it is not common to be recorded. there's a certain circle of trust. the last time a recording was made famous was kevin mccarthy saying that he thought donald trump accepted bribes from russia. i want to lean into what joy said because this goes to the entire narrative of frankly trump years where you had all these people inside the administration saying, we know it's bad but just trust us. we're gonna continue to work within the system. the truth is there were thousands of whistleblowers who saw malfeasance an extraconstitutional behavior of donald trump who should have
gone to capitol hill, not to the press. don't ride anonymous op-eds, don't hide behind the press, if there is information that holds the fates of our republic in the balance, last that. go with that. i think joyce's point is exactly right, everyone on that phone call had a responsibility a year ago, now rely on the new york times to report on it. >> absolutely. daniel, final thought to you, but this have changed anything had to come out as soon as the recording -- would it have backed mccarthy into a corner and forced him to be more honest? 30 seconds. >> i think it would've. and i think that's what we need. we need for the press to do their job which is to educate the public. we need politicians to be held accountable, and they are not. >> we like to call it as it is even when it is on the medias side.
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