around them, to make sure that they are doing the same, so they can model that behavior. >> it's been a very difficult week, i think, for everybody. difficult to read through the little, you know, biographies of these beautiful little children, and you know, the grandmas and buffalo. this is hard. people think of news people as sort of hardened and cynical people. and i am incredibly cynical, when it comes to things like politics. but the stuff breaks you. doctor kavita patel thanks for being here. all in with chris hayes starts now. thanks for being here al>> tonight on all in -- >> [noise] >> righteous crowd protests in houston, as law enforcement admits to its catastrophic response. >> we've been in hindsight we're sitting now. that the forces are not in the city. >> and architects of the system that failed celebrate guns in houston, before facing the truth in uvalde. >> --

yes, i was misled. >> tonight, what we know about the police failure, and the policy failure that allowed mass murder in a texas school. plus, pandering and a protest at the air on a convention in houston, and with you and i can do to break this uniquely american ritual of violence. all in starts right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. today, wayne lapierre, head of the national rifle association, hosted a number of republican politicians, including the ex president, at his organization's annual conference in houston. just days after 19 elementary school children and teachers were slaughtered by a gunman, a few hundred miles away. now, all of the speakers at today's conference acknowledged the shooting, and really, how could they not? and all of them blamed it on everything but the ar-15 style rifle that the gunman bought as soon as he was legally able to

when he turned 18. this is standard. i mean, this is the script. we know how this goes. for nra and the politicians. in the aftermath of a recurring horror, these weapons, lapierre and his allies other publican party, just throwing an excuse, drink explain organs are not the problem. it was following the sandy hook massacre, ten years ago, which left 20 children and six adults dead. then, lapierre provided one of the most and doubled excuses of the modern age. >> the only way, the only way to stop molester from killing our kids to be personally involved and invested in a plan of absolute protection. the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. >> ironically, that is the moral cosmology of a child. like, a small get, who thinks

about the world with good giants and bad guys with guns. and that phrase, and the sense behind it, are now is inescapable. i mean, it was obviously ridiculous back then, elude chris thing to say, and ludicrous now. it's simply not how it functioning society works. it's a wild west state of nature in which conflicts are resolved only through violence and bloodshed. but it meant more guns, right? if lapierre, and you are solving at the board, sitting around and brainstorming, like all those 20 murdered kids, guns, maybe we just try to shoot the moon here. the notion that only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun is still, it's an organized -- organizing policy principle of the republican party. it is the mid south sold by the conservative moment. for the last ten years, at least, to justify constantly expanding access and every

legislative session to guns, like texas governor greg abbott has done. and the aftermath of this latest horrifying massacre, they tried it out again, because it's what they do. the missiles was on full display again. everyone praising with salinity. the good guys with guns. claiming those guys with those guns prevented an even greater tragedy. >> the reality is, as horrible as what happened, it could have been worse. the reason that it was not worse, it's because law enforcement officials did what they do. they showed amazing courage, by running toward gunfire, for the singular purpose of trying to

save lives. >> as he was approaching, as the governor mentioned earlier, it was a brave consolidated school district resource officer, that approached him, engaged him, and at that time, there was, gunfire was not exchanged. and the suspect was able to make it into the school. >> during a briefing from law enforcement, two of the uvalde police officers who responded to the shooting, shared their harrowing experience with us. and in the face of such unthinkable evil, their courage was unwavering. >> i am just gonna read with greg abbott said again. i just want to think about it for one second. the reason it was not worthless because long for cement officials did what they do, and showed amazing courage, my running toward gunfire, for the single purpose of trying to save lives. that is a comforting story, if you are mourning the horror of what has happened. but here is the thing. that's not just not true, it's,

we think now the opposite of the truth. the argument that heroic law enforcement officers, the proverbial, good guy with a gun, showed unwavering courage, and prevent the massacre from being worse, that is not at all how it looks. after three days of misdirection, false start, shifting stories, we have arrived wet beers to be the horrible, almost unspeakable, almost not believable truth of what actually happened in that classroom, in robb elementary school, in uvalde, texas. just listen to the texas director public safety today, admitting to the total and complete failure by police, to stop the massacre. >> there was discussion early on that and i sd, consolidate ist from you all day, the officer, was a resource officer. and had been confronted. the suspect. bottom line, that officer was

not seen on campus, but had heard the 9-1-1 call with a man with a gun, drove immediately to the area, respect to what he thought was the man with a gun, to the back of the school, we turned out to be a teacher, and not the suspect. in doing so, we drove right by the suspect, who was behind the vehicle, when he began shooting at the school. the corner identified, i will not say her name, but she was in moon 1:12, called 9-1-1 at 12:03. the call was one minute -- she is in moon won 12. she identified herself with one whisper. at 12:10, she called back, and moon 12 advise her, multiple are dead. [inaudible] >> not at that time. >> why? >> the unseen come under, at

the, time believe that it had transition from an active shooter to barricaded subject. >> it was a 40 minute gap, and the 9-1-1 operators were aware that children were live in that classroom, why weren't officers notified of that, and why did they take action? that's the question. >> from the benefit of hindsight, where i'm sitting now, of course they made the wrong decision. there are no excuses for that. >> 19 police officers or inside the school, for more than 40 minutes, as the gunmen holed up in a classroom, with those terrified little children, and those panicked, desperate gets, kept calling 9-1-1, and pleading with them to send the police. i, honestly, i listen to this press conference today. i kept thinking that i was missing something, or i had, i

was screwing it up. i was left speechless. now, let's just say that that just be clear here. the officer in charge of the scene, who that department of public safety official said, was made, it was not an active shooter situation. the 19 cops inside the building to do not have to go in, despite the continent locking himself in the classroom full of gates, and in a barrage of 9-1-1 calls. that individual is presented to defend himself today, or herself, then i gotta say given the record of official pronouncement so far, there is no reason to take anything, anyone from law enforcement in the situation says a face value full stop. so that's what we have now, but it does seem confirmed, even as we likely more, the worst possible set of facts appears to be the true one. but the police utterly failed,

with their guns. the good guys with guns, in the school, utterly failed to protect us gets. that they set up a court outside the school, and yelled at, and threatened, and prevented parents from rushing in, even it seems as the gunman was still inside dock! and in addition to the police response being, an unfathomable failure, it is also just a profoundly upsetting demonstration of the bankruptcy of the arms race theory of violence prevention, something that just wayne lapierre pulled out of the ether. so we had something to say. this decades-long project outlined by lapierre ten years ago, just give everybody guns. and arm and increasingly militarized police force, more and more money, more and more weapons, make sure they all have swat teams. they only to have swatting, because you never know. so, if one of the weapons and's

up in the eyes of a bad guy, we're gonna have a parliamentary unit that is trained to go, there and stop them. it's all bs! they built up to this moment, and here it was. here's the proving ground. and we just saw a trail in realtime. and yet, even after that, in the wake of that, after that press conference today, in which that failure was enunciated, at the nra conference, after we learned about the feel of the good guys with guns, here's what happened. >> ultimately, as we all know, what stops are bad guys is armed with the good guys. [applause] >> as the h all thing goes, the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun.

have you ever heard that? no, you've never heard that. ve you ever heard >> if those are the two categories, i'm curious for donald trump and ted cruz, which category where the police in this estimation? of course, it's not two categories of people, that's the whole point. whatever donald trump and ted cruz say, that entire nra worldview collapsed in and of itself in a pool of blood in that elementary school in uvalde, texas on tuesday. and in the end, the year, brutal bankruptcy of what these questions have been proposing, cruz, trump, greg abbott, going after everyone, celebrating guns and then usage in texas, it has been late there. my colleague is a democratic nominee for the governor of texas. is running to replace republican dan patrick, and he joins me now. >> obviously, you've got a vested interest. here you're running against dan

patrick is one of the officials was up on that stage, with that governor, of course. with the attorney general, with the texas department of public safety. and again, you know, the failures that happened on the ground in uvalde, which became very clear, those aren't the direct responsibility of the governor, lieutenant governor. but i just,, like our people in texas losing their minds over this? because it just seems to me, forget ideology, forget where you come from, how can this possibly be what is being presented to people? >> first of all, chris, thanks so much for allowing me to speak to you, and what is really one of the darkest and most difficult days of our lives this texans, and me, personally. he said something a minute ago, chris, that i would like to challenge, which is that you say that it's really not greg abbott's fault, or dan patrick's fault what happened and that school today. but i say that is wrong. you know, we had a terrible situation, mass murder in santa

fe high school, about four years ago. and we demanded that the legislature takes steps to bring us gun reforms. and we insisted that if they did nothing, that it would happen again, that more children would die, and they would have blood on our hands. and that is exactly what happened. and they do have blood on their hands. and we must hold these so-called leaders accountable, because this is so heartbreaking. you've heard the stories, chris, about the teacher who held solving children in her arms, praying that they would be okay, and then making sure that they got out first. risking her life for those children, and then patrick won't even risk is next primary for those children, no! the blame lands at dan patrick, and particularly dan patrick. he's the most powerful political leader in the state. and yet, did nothing. >> there was a policy fork in the road, to a point after that

santa fe killing, and it wasn't like they did nothing. they did do something. i think, am i right that it's $600 million in the total school public safety? 100 million marked specifically for hardening schools. again, the sort of good guy with a gun, swat team, involved in the training. like, there was a choice to do something. just, i just wonder if there is going to be a reckoning with the failure. >> there won't be a reckoning. there will be a reckoning. it's not fair -- there was a recent audit, by the way. i mean, dan patrick ran into fox news after santa fe, and said we need to harden the targets. first of all, that is the wrong way to go. you don't harden the targets. these are schools. these are places of learning. we need safety. we need resource officers. we need counselors. we need to have a safe environment for those children. but even if you do hardened school, which is his flock policy, they did not. there is a recent audit show more than half of the schools in the state have nothing. and i think it's very clear to

see what happened with this terrible situation in uvalde, they had done nothing, no. and here is the deal. the legislature has to act, chris. and schools, kids are coming back to school in three months, okay? this texas legislature doesn't meet meet again until next year. so now, the question is, are they gonna have a special session? and i've called for a special session, just this morning, to deal with this, or they're gonna ignore, as they have so many times in the past. but they must come together now. they didn't then. there were several special sessions after santa fe, but they weren't related to this crisis. they were related to suppressing the vote. they were related to attacking trans kids. nothing was done, chris. now, i've called on a special session, and we need to reform our gun laws in the state. and everybody knows it. we're waiting to see if they did it. >> just finally and quickly, you say everybody knows that you are in a texas. from my understanding, it used to be a republican, your democrat now. it's a state with high levels

of gun ownership, and politically, a high level of support for guns, at least four politicians who are maximalist about it. do you think any of that has changed? the basic political gravity in your state, is it running for statewide office. >> chris, i'll answer this way. first, i was right in a culture, my father and i -- i own a gun. i have great respect for firearms, a great respect for the importance of training, and a great respect for the importance of limitations. you know, it's easy to get a fishing license in texas, i mean, it's easier to get an ar-15 license in texas. but i would say this to your question. the majority of texans respect guns, recognize the importance of gun safety, we want sensible gun laws. it is a very, very small group of texans, the dan patrick panders group, and particularly the nra and the gun lobby, that

he works for. he doesn't work for us. and you'll see that texans are gonna go to the polls, and we're gonna make sure that our voices are heard. >> all right, mike collier, who's running against dan patrick to be the lieutenant governor off the state of texas. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> well, the pro gun lobby by does more of the status quo inside the convention center, outside lining the streets of hundreds of protesters gathered incredible scenes of grief and rage, demanding action. i'll talk to a reporter who knows the nra playbook better than just about anyone, right after this. nra playbook bette than just about anyone, righ after this

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determination in the air in houston, texas, as hundreds of people gathered to protest the national rifle association's annual meeting today. brought the country's grief out to the streets, just three days after a gunman murdered 19 children and two adults in an elementary school. displays were striking, this group slot in -- down the sidewalk surrounding the convention center carrying a child-sized casket. it held up photos of the nine, ten, 11 year old shot and killed. a group of young children stood silently in a row, each wearing a placard, displaying the name and photo of one of the victims. one boy held up a sign that read quote, am i next. and as nra members stumbled in the halls, activists and politicians rallied the crowds at a park across the street. they express their fury with

the gun lobby, the republicans that support them, and they're also hopeful calls to action. >> turn around, let them know how you feel about how they have not taken action on this issue. >> shame, shame, shame. >> [inaudible] >> i believe this time can be different, and it will be different. if you believe that, raise your sign. [applause] >> action is the antidote to despair. it is the key to victory, it is necessary if we are ever to overcome this. are you willing to act. [applause] >> inside the convention hall, nra republican leaders stood up to defend the guns that were used to murder those 19 children, making the claim that no restrictions on them could prevent a massacre. >> if we as a nation we're

capable of legislating evil, out of the hearts and minds of criminals who commit these heinous acts, we would've done it a long time ago. >> there are thousands of laws on the books across the country that limit the owning or using of firearms. laws that have not stopped mad men from carrying out evil acts. >> people like chuck schumer and nancy pelosi, instantly start calling for more gun laws that wouldn't have made any difference in stopping the shooter. >> -- nra powerful unseal the type grip on the political system -- tim mak, -- npr and the author of the book misfire, inside the downfall of the nra. he was outside the nra convention in houston today, he joins me now. first of all, describe to someone who's reporting on this on a while, at the scene was

like in houston? >> well, it's really interesting i've never seen any as many protesters as an nra event as i saw today. you are talking about, showing those image of what was happening outside, and i talked to a lot of people who had never been to an anti gun issue protests before in their lives. but the events of the last week, in buffalo before that, really rallied a lot of folks out in front of the nra convention. it is in something i've seen before, i've seen small gatherings, demonstrations outside of nra events, nothing quite of this size and intensity. >> you know, your book was just fascinating, incredible reporting we featured it before on the show, the subtitle which is the downfall of the nra prompts the question of like, not really falling down.

they went through this insane intramural dispute, lawsuits, accusations of embezzlement misuse of funds, one faction ruining the other, and normally public at embarrassing disclosures about money that's being paid to associative editors. and there they are, how is this things still standing? >> downfall, not necessarily defeat, right? they've had enormous impacts, enormous challenges, enormous troubles like you've been describing, their fund raising is down, their membership is tainted, and this is the really interesting thing,? right a lot of people think that the nra's power comes from the money that they raise, the money to expand politically. what is fascinating about all this, the nra's power comes from its ability to mobilize its members. it's it's a to flood phone

lines, able to get decision-makers and lawmakers to understand that hey, they don't want to be challenged politically. they need to listen to what nra members have to say. so, that's been the source of the nra's resilience, now what does it mean that there are these demonstrations outside the nra convention hall, that there are folks who have never been involved in this issue before, suddenly now getting -- it shows that there is some promise for that side of the argument. >> what is lapierre, the things he was accused of, these are by people of cher's ideology, this is not a gun grabbing lid that saying lapierre, this fight that stop amended in your book, why are people still listening to him personally, what is his political relationship in the kind of pantheon of the upper

echelon of the right-wing conservative republican establishment if you will? >> as my book shows, when lap years isn't a charismatic figure, i don't think people listen to the americans they respect wayne lapierre in particular. if you look at his speeches he's awkward, revolting individual, he's not particularly good if there's any policy proposals, convincing forced to listen to his side of the cause. the power that he wields as the head of an organization that's able to mobilize his members on short notice, and get folks activated at times like this, and lawmakers might be trying to pass legislation the nra doesn't want to see past. >> that's it, they hit the green button and now they're getting a delusion questions, how many people are on the other side of the big part of the equation here. tim mak thank you very much. coming up, congresswoman who

ran by pushing for more gun safety measures after her own -- unspeakable tragedy. lucy mcbath on a time for action after this. on a time fo on a time fo actionow. ♪ one thing leads to another, yeah, yeah ♪

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yiu is for you. exactly. yvonne yiu. democrat for controller. out-of-state corporations wrote an online sports betting plan they call "solutions for the homeless". really? the corporations take 90 percent of the profits. and using loopholes they wrote, they'd take even more. the corporations' own promotional costs, like free bets, taken from the homeless funds. and they'd get a refund on their $100 million license fee, taken from homeless funds, too. these guys didn't write a plan for the homeless. since the shooting and you've they wrote it for themselves. all day, texas, there's been numerous calls from the kindest to pass the bipartisan -- background check for sales unlicensed dealers, and sellers. that was hra that passed the

house for support sides of the aisle last year, honoré bipartisan vote because language in the senate ever since. the bill is one of the few pieces of legislation that was cosponsored by congresswoman in georgia, vice chair of the violence prevention tax force. she ran for congress specifically on a platform of gun safety after her 17-year-old son, jordan davis, was murdered at a gas station by a man with a gun. congresswoman lucy mcbath, joins me now. congresswoman it's good to have you on the program, i feel as though i want to say what i said to fred guttenberg early in the week, i can imagine these weeks which are hard for everyone, obviously are particularly painful for someone who has suffered through tragedy like you have. >> thank you, chris, it's so good to be with you thank you for having me tonight. and as i've said before, every time we have these tragedies, it's a painful reminder, for me it's like a punch in the gut,

that again and again, when we can really do something, put forth policies to keep our family safe. and instill, ten years since i lost my own son, we haven't done so, we haven't been able to get federal background checks for past the senate. and these are lifesaving measures, that people are just waiting for us to pass. i'm sad to say that i've talked to many people, that are so afraid to send their children off to school, afraid that they might not come home. so afraid that their kids are going on the leading to parties or what have you and might be caught in crossfire. so many families that are so afraid of sending their children to other peoples homes, there might be unsecured firearms there. especially under covid, so many homes, so many more domestic violence cases that i've just

gone up exponentially. so, we have a public health crisis on our hands, and still yet, we haven't been able to really move as rapidly as we should've moved within these last ten years. >> yeah, i mean the obstacles are clear and i think they do come up to politics over and over again. here's someone, there is redistricting in your georgia, you want to contest in the primary so you'll be the nominee, democratic nominee in that district. it is from not mistake, and i was just looking at the index, it's gonna be competitive. you are not like a plus 35 seat, you are just gonna ramp to reelection, and i guess i wonder like how much do you think about this issue as being a vulnerability or something you're gonna be targeted politically for because this is something that you are so passionate about? >> well,, you know let's be honest. my number one policy agenda, my

very first campaign was gun violence prevention. gun safety, and there again here we are even in this election, and people know me specifically for my work in gun safety, gun violence prevention. and i can assure you they will be far more numbers of people that go to the polls this fall, and this will be a policy for them that they will go to the polls on. because we have a public health crisis here, and you know, on tuesday i was standing at the podium after having just been reelected, and the solemn irony was not lost on me that on the same day georgia sent me a mother on a mission back to congress again to help keep our kids and family safe. it was the very same day that 19 children, and two teachers were gunned down senselessly. again, and again we continue to see this tragedy. we're paying for these weapons

of war in our straits, with the blood of our children who are sitting in our schools, we're paying for unfettered gun access. with parents standing in line for a dna test, forced to find out if it was their precious child that was riddled with bullets, and may be up beyond recognition. it's the phone call that every parent fears, the phone call that is a sucker punch to your stomach, and across the country the violence it took my son, the violence that took the little boys and girls in uvalde, and the black seniors in buffalo, it's being replayed with casual callousness. it's just absolutely over, and over again. >> congresswoman lucy mcbath, represents that district in georgia, will be on the ballot this fall. cosponsor the legislation which is just sitting waiting for senate to take it up. although democrats don't cross your fingers to.

hard thank you congresswoman. >> thank you. >> coming up, refusing to allow greg abbott to continue with businesses as illusion, will the masses gathered outside the nra meeting, signs of some kind of break from the supreme court -- of these atrocities look like. is it enough, that's just ahead. ahead. enough, that's jus it's innovative. my go to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. ahead. [zoom call] ...pivot... work bye. vacation hi! ahead. 'cause when you save more, you can “no way!” more. no wayyyy. no waaayyy! no way! [phone ringing] hm. no way! no way! priceline. every trip is a big deal. a monster was attacking but the team remained calm. because with miro, they could problem solve together, and find the answer that was right under their nose. or... his nose.

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in uvalde, texas. on the first level, there's profound sorrow, grief, and anguish for those that are just watching this, that was not in the community those at home like you, imagining what happened, imagining it happening to someone you love. i imagine it happened to your own child, which is almost with the body rebels against. beyond that, is the sense of how ritualized both the act of violence and the aftermath, there are the steps you can strip down that happen every single time, the grieving, the platitudes even the ones i agree with, the empty promises, never again, all of this feeling pulled against our well -- into a form of collective social ritual that's developed and evolved around gun mass murder in the united states. this is what we all do. there's also these moments of hope, people seem to be disrupting that scrap, disrupting the ritual, breaking the cycle, we saw texas gubernatorial candidate -- interrupt governor greg abbott's ritualistic press conference. -- praising the police.

we see nba co-steve kerr whose father was shot to death when curry was 18, refusing to talk about basketball analyst teams game. >> in the last ten days, the foul elderly black people killed in a supermarket in buffalo, we've had asian churchgoers killed in southern california, now we have had children murdered at school. when are we gonna do something. i'm tired, i'm so tired of getting up here and offering condolences but to the devastated families that are out there, i'm so tired of the excuse i'm sorry, i'm sorry moments of silence. enough. >> charisma and outspoken, passion advocate for justice, so wasn't surprising to see him do that. but still it was intense, and not just him before a playoff

game this week the nba's miami heat, did their part in the ritual, a moment of silence and then went beyond that. the crowd erupted. >> we now ask you to join us in a moment of silence, for those no longer with us. thank you, the heater didn't contact or state senators my calling 202, two to 43021 to leave a message demanding their support for common sense gun laws. but also to make change at the ballot box, he dot com slash vote to register, and let your voice be heard this fall. >> you can hear from the crowd 's reaction, they're happy to hear their team take a stand on this issue. and then last night, the new york baggies and the tampa bay raise dedicated our 20 feeds

the gun safety during the game. each team tweeting shocking facts like, 50% of american adults are someone they care for have experienced gun violence. instead of giving the score arguments, today of course hundred people protested the nra convention in houston, -- this video of the huge crowd riding, this time it's gonna be different. anomalies felt like attempts to break the cycle, to disrupt the grim and orderly procession of pacific rituals, but again we need more. we're gonna talk about that, next. more. season long. psst! psst! flonase all good. next at adp, we use data-driven insights to help you manage payroll, benefits, and hr today, so you can have more success tomorrow. ♪ one thing leads to another, yeah, yeah ♪

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in america grinds forward once again, there's no obvious answer of how to stop it. polling shows the majority of americans favor legislation to curb gun violence, it seems unlikely that republicans in the senate -- to pass. never mind substantial, and a new op-ed for the new york times how america may be broken moran repair, michelle brokered writes, the real nightmare is not that the repetition of najla's terrorism brings american politics to an inflection point, but it doesn't, the nightmare is that we simply stumble, on helpless as things seem to be getting worse. as andrew -- we need to learn to live with guns, the most important thing you need to know about yesterday's tragic school shooting in texas it is an absolutely no laws are gonna change as a result of it. michelle goldberg and andrew exum join me now.

michelle, your column echoed i think a lot of the despair that we feel, and i think just the despair that there is one level above, the first order of all finishes, and then the second order recognition of the cycle that we all now share. again, it is ritualistic, i feel like i'm part of the ritual. i don't want to be part of the ritual. we're all part of. it and this sense of just claustrophobia, of being locked in. i don't have a way out, but i just wanted to hear your thoughts? >> well, i think the reason why we're stuck in this ritual, is because we're stuck in the sclerosis of american politics. that's the thing that's immovable. so, as long as you can't break the filibuster, as long as you can't break the control of right-wing garrison the supreme court who are about to strike, who seem poised to strike down gun restrictions in new york city. so, we have even more guns, and

gun violence. as long as you basically can't rein the cycle of minority rule, which is what the with this all comes down to. the fact that the majority, there's mixed pollings on guns in general but on things like background checks, red flag laws, bans on assault white napkins, their substantial majority that cannot enact their well because of this hostile minority. and it's a hostile minority sees gun, sees holding an reserved the threat of violence, the threat of insurrection as key to their power. so they have no incentive to cooperate with democrats. >> yeah, andrea, your piece which is just to give a little bit of your bio here, you live in texas now, you originally i believe from tennessee, you served as an army ranger in iraq, you talk about guns, angleton culture and conceptualizing how to change it from within a certain kind of way. how have you been thinking

about things? >> yeah, that's a nearly interesting, chris, we just moved back from texas after three years there. back to washington, d.c., and i literally had [inaudible] my firearms with the metropolitan police. which was something that would've been completely foreign in texas. i have to say, i didn't feel like my rights were compromised too much by the much violently as we were tremendously professional throughout the whole process. i still think the real issue, chris, is that we need to have a cultural change. i think as michel put it, the laws changing are probably pretty no, but frankly i've seen the gun culture in america really change and evolve since i grew up. when i came back from war, from iraq, and see all these folks who wanted to stress like special operators, terry tactical weapons, take them to the range, put them to the pro shops on monday trying to buy

ammunition -- couldn't find any. i could find ammunition it was four for 56 -- the types of weapons that are semiautomatic pistols, assault rifles, that's where the demand stands. we've got to recapture some of the -- frankly, i'd like to see these types of weapons a little bit more stigmatized than they are today, to degree these tragedies help haste that stigmatization. that would be a good thing. >> yeah, the problem is it does the opposite effect. empirically it's advertisement for these weapons, which is just too ghoulish to contemplate. but andrew, to your point of been thinking about these different layers, right there, is the first layer which is, recreation. the gun is like a tennis racket, an atv, 1 million other different things that people like to do. i don't even think honestly, even the people who are the most kind of gun skeptical,

maybe they think it's weird, but it's like fine, all right i think there's people who are animal rights people they don't like hunting. but then there's one level above that, michelle, which is you're defending your home, or you live in the woods and you have animals you want to be worried about self-defense. but it's that third level, that's the thing that's so toxic i think. you just mentioned michelle, and you mentioned andrew in the war cause play, the civil war beat back the tyrant tactical obsession, the explicit idea that you now see michelle from, politicians essential a the second amendment was the founder ceding their own monopoly of legitimate use of force. the notion that what gave away their monopoly, which is preposterous, but it's now, michelle, mainstream conservative view. >> right, there is this sort of menace running -- far beneath the modern conservative, modern republican party.

there is an ad i mentioned in the column by blake master, was -- [interpreter] funded candidate for republican nomination for senate in arizona. where he's holding the semi automatic, with a honey badger saying this is in for hunting, this is to kill people. and he doesn't mean that as an argument against meghan, he means that as an argument for the game. saying that we need guns like this, to protect our country. and when he means by that, i think, is a sort of, again, it seems to me like a very subtle or implicit threat of insurrection, if there is a government that he are publicans consider tyrannically. >> also, just final thought here,, andrew you've been at war and people that have been around what guns do, i think whatever their view on the weapon as kind of way than understanding of that, that i feel is that a loss sometimes it fantasizes that's built up

around. it >> yeah, i really feel like i'm pushing against the tide here with three young kids, and i'm pushing to introduce them that's healthy in terms of hunting sporting -- clays and skis and whatnot, and i don't want them to see that if they want to join the military they can do that as well i did that when i was a young man, but i don't want them to be captive to with this really toxic, ugly culture. >> yeah, well that was a great discussion in an awful week, i appreciate both of you michelle goldberg and andrew exum. i appreciate. that's all in on this friday night, msnbc prime starts now with ayman mohyeldin. >> hey, good evening, chris. and thank you at home as well for joining us this hour. it has been three days since an 18 year old man in uvalde,