tv The Beat With Ari Melber MSNBC July 11, 2022 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT
thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicole, thanks so much. i am ari melber. we begin away breakthrough in the genetics probe from the very top. this is building an on a story we first brought you friday night. it is the rush towards a tempted legal surrender of a trump aide with the written permission of donald trump himself. if that sounds unusual, that's because this is the first time somebody reported a story like this before because you never are trump involved. indeed while other aides testified about january 6th, even trump's own family, none have ever done so with donald trump weighing in in writing in what could be called a
semicooperative or cooperative fashion. i'll explain all that and where there's room for skepticism, but all this speaks to -- what is shaping up is one of the committee's most decisive legal victories as white house veteran and 2016 campaign chair steve bannon makes this move at an attempted partial legal surrender. he is offering a type of last-minute bid to try to cut a deal and cooperate with the january 6th committee. he is saying he wants to testify before this committee. he's sighing that now he will deal with them. he will talk, and if he did so under oath that's a new legal obligation, and he'll do so despite the defiance. a letter from trump himself attempts to explain the reversal. if nothing else, the pressure got to bannon. congress did not negotiate or
weight on bannon. the committee made an assertive decision, unusual for democrat-run probes to immediately hold wanten in contempt when he defied, to immediately push for the doj to indict him, which it did. there were some at the time that said, gosh, this set it off on essive footing. or, will it do what doj and garland want to co? will it look political? congress led by this select committee and its chairs, they said, no, we're going forward. that's why bannon is facing up to two years in prison, and that's why apparently his tough talk bebegan melting, news broke of the deal this weekend. here's how bannon's talk went from a type of theatericle pack of maga lies to now pleading for a deal. >> this is the complete charade
that the 6 january committee -- >> the house is voting now to find steve bannon in contempt of congress for brazenly defying a subpoena from the january 6th committee. >> this is going to be the misdemeanor from he will for merrick garland, nancy pelosi, and jen. we're tired offend playing offense. we're going defense on this. >> steve bannon, trusted adviser to donald trump now says he will testify and wants to do so publicly. >> i want you guys to stay focused. remember, signal not noise. this is noise, not signal. donald trump says he'll waive executive privilege before he goes to the committee. >> how about that? signal and noise. the projection on display there is absolutely wild and very obvious. tonight's news shows no speeches on the courthouse steps were the noise, produced for mostly the maga crowd that may naively believe all that, just like the
live stream videos and bravado. the signal is the actual shift from defiance to asking the committee to asking him to cut a deal so he might avoid the risk of going to prison. to quote, testify, as bannon's lawyer puts knit write, adding a preference for doing so at your public hearing. now, sometimes i have to state the obvious around here, so let me state it. mr. bannon, a defendant awaiting trial, is not in much of a position to negotiate about venue of forum of said testimony, considering he is currently facing what will be a mandated public trial and then a very private and constricting prison cell if convicted. he is, i take pains to note, legally innocent until this trial and its resolution. a larger point, though, is this
attempt to cooperate at all, and why now? the door is closing quite clearly for mr. bannon to claim any cooperation, because, one, the committee as down to its last hearings and two, bannon's criminal trial begins next week, literally. now, if this were a tactic to delay next week's trial, which many skeptics who are familiar with bannon's operations would see that as a responsibility, well, any delay tactic has just failed and fallen flat on its face. we can report for you as well, because a lot has been happening in this story tonight. late today a judge ruling this trial will continue as scheduled and rejecting other bannon long shots like his request to subpoena pelosi or january 6th investigators. >> it's too little too late for steve bannon. a judge just ruling in the last hour or so that his new willingness to testify before the select committee won't play any role. >> won't play any role. likewise, committee leaders say
they will not be giving bannon any special public hearing as requested in that letter, but they are open to having him come and talk. that is why they held him in contempt in the first place. this was not supposed to be randomly punitive or settling a score. it was the punishment for him not doing what so many others have done, which is comply with lawful requests to tell the truth about what happened with that horrific insurrection. now, there is a lot here. later tonight we'll break down some of the legalese around the privilege which bannon does not have and the future of his trial. but, if you pull back from the noise, to use the word of the day, and pull back from the intricacies, here's what's basically happening. the most defiant trump aide involved in the probe is folding and trying to cut a deal, and doing so with donald trump's written cooperation, or at least the pr optics version of
asserting that. and again, we can bring skepticism to aspects of this, but big picture, why is this happening? because pressure works. pressure from this committee, which as mentioned has done things differently, pressure from the doj when it decides to prosecute insurrection and obstruction cases seriously, and with vigor, it appears that pressure works on people whose entire life and brand is around claiming that they are imperious and impervious to this and they will do whatever. a lot of this comes down to fear. on that day, january 6th, it was so many brave public servants, police officers and members of congress, vice president pence, who were subjected to the fear of a criminal mob summoned and rallies and organized by donald trump. and that was wrong. and much of that was criminal. we are careful to cover the legalities of individual cases,
but convictions have been had, crimes have been proven. it was a criminal assault not only on democracy, but on the brave and innocent people conducting themselves and trying to defend it. fear is powerful. but who is afraid right now? if you take nothing else from this, it would appear that mr. steve bannon is the one who's afraid -- afraid of trial, afraid of prison, afraid of actually acting on the propaganda that he spewed at his supporters for so long. that fear, which can focus the mind, is an instrument of the criminal justice system. now we turn to our special guest tonight for a one-on-one interview to get into all of this, the former acting solicitor general for the obama administration, neal katyal. neal, your reaction to mr. bannon's position, what with its legal deficiencies we'll get into later with our conversation, but what does it
say about aspects of the system potentially working? >> i do think, ari, it was an interesting reversal from steve bannon. this is the one time that steve bannon has wanted to check is privilege, and it turns out he doesn't have any. this is a guy who wasted three chances to do the right thing. he would have volunteered to testify. he could have testified after being subpoenaed or after the criminal referral. and we're now a week before his criminal trial, ari, as you were saying, and now all of a sudden he says he wants to do his duty. and i don't know what in the world steve bannon must have said to donald trump to allow him toway this privilege that he's never even had in the first place, but i doubt it was an appeal to the greater good. i agree there's a fear component on the part of bannon. he's got to, particularly after the judge's ruling today. but this has always felt to me like some sort of last-ditch attempt by bide ton get in the good graces of the judge and jury for his criminal trial and
also to perhaps try to turn the pr naritive, in which the house january 6th committee's been so successful on, and trying to get a trump person to testify on live tv. >> yeah. you make several striking points there, including our observation that mr. bannon clearly is second-guessing everything he's ever claimed and said in public. i'm reminded of vince staples who rapid, everybody tough until they got to go and see the judge, and there's a lot of fake toughness here. you mentioned the intricacies. i want to get to that as well. the doj had his answer today. normally that would have been higher in the top of the show, but as mentioned there's a lot going on. they call it a last-ditch attempt to try to avoid accountability. so neal stays with us as i walk through this part. talking about waives privilege, which makes it harder for other indicted trump aide peter navarro to continue with his strategy. you may recall mr. navarro has a
whole case understood cut by his suppose buddy bannen and his former boss, which may have him more upset than the day he was arrested. >> i was on my way to nashville today. what did they do? they didn't call me. instead of calling me and say, hey, we need you down at court, we've got a warrant for you. i would have gladly come. what did they do? they intercepted me getting on the plane and then they put me in handcuffs, they bring me here. they put me in leg irans. they put me in a cell. that's punitive wham they did to me today violated the constitution. >> fact check -- false. those agents had a warrant. no court found such a violation. but others push back on these view of privilege, as neal mentioned. none of this has been a secret. the committee noted trump didn't
evoke privilege with neither and i raised that with navarro myself. >> the former president has not invoked that in wriing or for. >> you the committee has not been given any attempted invocation of privilege by donald trump. >> it doesn't exist for you yet because donald trump doesn't have your back. >> the president is not going to cooperate with a kangaroo committee. >> fact check -- it's complicated. the new letter from trump is a nod towards potential or asserted cooperation, while the doj found evidence trump never invoked executive privilege at all in the bannon case and not for navarro meaning they're basing their defense on something that never happened. that's how politico put it. fast forward to today when the judge readies for bannon's
trial, and the judge had a series of motions that cannot go bannon's way, including knocking out potential defenses he raised. then bannon's lawyer said, quote, what's the point of going to trial here if there are no defenses? it's a bad, bad sign, and that was open court. the judge agreed, suggesting bannon's team consider that it has basically no actual defenses. there's no white house privilege defense. when bannon didn't work at the white house at the time and when trump didn't invoke it, which trump's own lawyer has now admitted as well in an interview with doj agents. i bring neal back because as mentioned, that walks through a lot. your response about what's most important about all of that, including the new ruling? >> there's certain will i no executive privilege here, ari. steve bannon hasn't worked in the white house since 2017 before i think tiktok was even a
thing. and you know, i think the committee has gotten good evidence. and the justice department, even from trump's own lawyer, justin clark, that trump has never invoked executive privilege in this and you have been on that from the start. but now they have corroboration from trump's own attorney. to me, the big thing is this judge's ruling today. this judge is named carl nichols. he's a well respected judge in washington, d.c. he was apainted by donald trump. he was a high-ranking justice department official in the bush administration, and the judge today just eviscerated bannon's defenses. bannon's own really argument legally or in litigation at sentencing is a kind of the last-minute declaration that, hey, i've finally seen the light. i what tonight testify. i want to give you the documents and the like, and to quote bannon's own attorney, as you were saying, what's the point in going to trial here if there are no defenses left after the judge rejected everything today? i mean, the judge said today
that bannon's kind of chief defense he'd been trying to make, which was, hey, i had to know what i was doing was illegal when congress made the requests to me and i denied them. tough prove that i knew that was illegal. and the judge today said, nope, you just have to -- the prosecution just has to prove that it is deliberate and intentional that you withheld these documents at all, not that you needed to know it was wrong or anything like that. and that also eviscerates, ari, our friend of the show peter navarro's defense, because that is navarro's defense as well. the judge knew ruled against it. both of these gentleman are looking at very serious jail time right now. >> yeah, as you say, very serious jail time. and really we got today the full doj defense is blistering in places. they call this the 11th hour, ninth inning bs optics train. that's the essence of the
rebuttal. but i did want to get you on one final intricacy before i lose you. that is there's something technical in the law with how you deal with people who defy these requests. there's basically a program where you try to get them to comply, and there's a different where you say, hey, you're being punished for your past on compliance, end of story. the doj says it's number two, which means later ninth innings attempts do not cure your past wrong. i understand that's the aggressive position they would obviously take. my final question to you, neal, is what would happen, though, if by monday, say the start of the trial, mr. bannon did get in front of this committee or did get a letter from the committee saying they see hem making a good effort or six-hour sitdown, even without documents come any of that help him at trial? >> it's possible, but the beauty of these contempt charges that
both bannon and navarro are facing is they're designed to-- you wasted government's time for months, making them spin their wheels while you didn't give them evidence they say they so solemnly need. congress as a whole voted to hold these guys in attempt. they say, we need this information. wasn't just a committee. it was congress as a whole. that's what i find so offensive about peter navarro's clip saying it's punitive. they put me in leg irons. no duh. you defy a subpoena and you say no? of course you deserve that. that's what every person in this country deserves when they don't adhere to a solemn request for information through dually noted channels. so to me there's something poetic about this man steve bannon who after all suiting out to deconstruct the
administrative state and now he's going to be sent to prison for failing to follow administrative procedure. >> well, if convicted. >> if there's one thing better than poetry, it's testimony. >> i only have to jump in to say convicted, you walked us through is useful and speaks to the high stakes going towards monday. the committee does have stuff it wants from bannon and they've taken great pains to argue they're not out to get trump people, they're out to get information. mr. ban ban as you defined it has a very narrow path to try to cooperate in time in a substantive way he could if it into the trial. he's presumed innocent but facing bad evidence, which even his lawyer noted. so neal, thank you for being our one-on-one guest here at the top of the program. >> thank you. >> appreciate it. coming up, what does bannon know? which goes to why the committee is still playing ball here?
he is a key fact witness. we do a breakdown. later tonight, we do exclusives around here. tonight we have a live interview of a key witness who's facing the january 6th committee. with lengths of what happened that day. we're going endeavor to get that information right here. and by the end of the hour, a preview of what is shaping up to be a high stakes committee tomorrow, including the insider who we're told is going to break his silence about the oath keepers. his silence about the oath his silence about the oath keepers. as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. the day of the heart attack, i was scared. there's no question it's something i didn't know what to do. learning hold on to the people we love and the things that matter to us.
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of questions for mr. bannon. he does know a lot, and that's why he mattered as a fact witness, regardless of what you think of his ethic or his tendency to lie as we covered in the beginning of the program. just one week before the insurrection, bannon was urging trump to focus everything on pressuring mike pence. of course we later learned that became an arm of the attempted coup. four days before the insurrection, well, bannon had none other than john eastman on his show, the war room, which is a very particular piece of propaganda that operates within that maga movement. some of the stuff at the time might have looked downright whacky, but now that mr. eastman claimed and evoked the fifth amendment, it is interesting to see how they were talking going into the 6th, and bannon referred to the behind the scenes plans to overturn the election. >> we're live from the nation's capitol. it's 2 january.
massive constitutional fights going on behind the scenes. people don't understand. john, first off, this argument of what's actually happening at the state basis and what happened in the constitution, that you and i happened to be on a call last night, was so brilliant. this was a defining moment. people will remember this one forever. it's where you were in this fight. >> they were on a call together the night before, that was january 1st. this is january 2nd. you're days out from something he was touting as a world historical event. you have to remember where you were. on the 2nd, this looked like-running out of gas. insurrection eve, bannon is also linked to key trump figures at trump headquarter at the will lard. he was reportedly in the room when mike pence's chief of staff phone in the, complaining that trump had publicly said pence would reject the election results, and the statement was that pence needs to be loyal
from the trump aides who are trying to engineer that. later the same night, trump called bannon to discuss what happened when he personally pushed pence on this, and that is all bannon scheming with the insiders. then there are other angles. on the very same day, insurrection eve, it was bannon -- listen to this, because if he does go before the committee, i bet you they ask about it. bannon then boasting about trying to get the leader of the proud boys out of a washington, d.c. jail cell. >> their leader is arrested when coming into washington, d.c. >> i don't know those guys but put call out last night asking for bailouts. it's not acceptable. >> yeah, we found that. that is the level of coordination. either you're the type of person who's working on bail for proud boys for your own reasons going into the 6th or you're not, and again, under oath the questions would be, what did you know.
why were they so vital? why would you need to spring them right before the 6th? we're talk about the chair n the number one official on the trump 2016 campaign. who was also in the white house. if he has direct involvement -- i say if because all this has to be investigated -- but if he has involvement, that's a biggie. bannon also declared ahead of this all hell was going to break loose. >> all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. just understand this -- all hell is going to break loose tomorrow. it's going to be moving, it's going to be quick. it's not going to happen like you think it's going to happen, okay, it's going to be quite extraordinarily different, and all i can say is strap in. the war room, a posse, you have made this happen, and tomorrow it's game day. >> now, that's a person who plays a lot of games and has a lot of bravado, but he did sound on record like someone who knew something and was preparing for
something big, whether it was big and public and free speech or big and criminal and violently operational is a question doj is investigating regardless of what happens in the resolution of his trial about cooperating with congress. he would appear to know a lot of things, and so when you take it all in, yeah, you can look at mr. bannon's bravado, his ethics, his life story. at the end of the day, this is a very real fact witness if not more. the january 6th committee has to be looking at this and questioning if the real reason he's been avoiding testimony -- making a spectacle -- and whether he is concerned about being in the position where he either has to tell what he knows under oath about trump and eastman and those people or plead the fifth. we're going to get into the answers of some of these
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visit indeed.com/hire are you a witness of fact to the collusion or all of it? >> i think i'm a witness of fact to all of it. been through the whole thing, and i have been to capitol hill a few times i'm a witness up there also. >> how many days did you talk to mueller's investigators? >> i don't want to go into details. i had a thorough session. over several days. i don't want to be specific about how many. >> that's what steve bannon told us when we interviewed him after his cooperation with the mueller probe. a reminder for all of his antics he's navigated federal probes before and found ways to cooperate. joining us now josh marshall and melissa murray. welcome to both of you. josh, do you think he knows
things that would be useful to the doj or house probe? >> i mean, it certainly seems so based on his own words. one of the most interesting things is that podcast or online show or whatever that thing he has is. he was basically doing a realtime narrative of the whole plot. i mean, it's all there in realtime. it's almost -- i don't know what it's like. it's like when you find out later someone was doing a documentary and giving you the sort of -- telling you what was up in realtime, and only when the documentary gets released can you hear it all. but it was all broadcast in realtime. certainly seems, as your package made clear, that he was talking to everyone on sort of the white house lawyer, federalist society side. and also seemingly on the fascist paramilitary side.
so, yeah, he seem like someone who could shed a lot of information on what was going on. >> i think you lay that out. it is interesting the media aspect. it's part of the trump movement. professor murray, no shade to podcasts. as a long time "beat" producer who prefers to get any and all information available via podcast, which i always found a bit much. some podcasts are about cooking and movie reviews and more of a pontiff ka story state. this was not a -- you had people coming in and out referring to what they wanted to do, referring to real actionable things. two day out from the insurrection, talk about converging on the capitol. >> this thing's going to be starting tomorrow it's going to be wild, like two days. it's incredible. you're going to be part of history. we want as many people to get here as possible. we're all going to converge at
this point on the 6th. we're all going to converge there. you just have to impose our will. it's like in football you have to impose your will. >> professor? >> as josh said, it's more than just a podcast. seems to be a media channel giving marching orders to this army that they are propelling toward the capitol for this purpose. in a sense it's almost like the radio free europe you might have had, the arm of this particular resistance. if i were steve bannon's lawyer i'd be worried because it's clear from all of his podcasting efforts that this is a person who likes to imagine himself at the center of things. and i imagine in this particular circumstance this is not a place where you want your client to be in the center of things. you actually want them to be as far away from the center of thing as possible, and i'm not sure that steve bannon will have the discipline to remove himself or to basically not present himself as being central to all of this.
>> yeah, josh, we showed a bit of when i interviewed him, and we sat for an hour. i find him to be cagey, strategic, political, but he gave many answers that corresponded to or related the truth, because we fact-checked. we researched. strong disagreement about his world view. we could get into that. but he didn't strike me as one of these random hacks who repeats a talking point and doesn't have any detail. he seemed to have a mastery of details. to the professor's point that may hurt him if all the record stack up about how informed he was about the intent of the day. >> yeah, i mean, it's -- as i
think you said in your intro -- if you weren't a maga person and you were listening to this, you would say, wow, this is crazy, this is nut what is we're hearing here. but the next day you see it all happen and go back to steve bannon and say, steve, let's talk. seems like you knew what was going on here since predicted all of it basically, and all the players were converging on your show. so, yeah, i would imagine that -- i guess it's an open question how much he was involve in specific bad acts. you know, i need you guy as lawyers to tell me how bad an act is it to be talking to all the people committing all the bad acts? but it seems almost certain that he knows a lot of information that would be damaging to a lot of people, and he may well himself be facing jeopardy. look, he seems to me like someone -- what you've seen over the last 36 hours, he has been saying a big eff you to the
whole justice system and political system for the last year and a half. and he seems now like someone who's just kind of out of time. and, you know, he's like tesio at the end of the godfather asking for a break from tom hagan, but there's no tom hagan. there's no one to ask. he's scrambling, flailing, and that's what i see. >> he needs a wartime consiglari and they've all run out of town. >> also important to remember at the time he was broadcasting these messages on his podcast he was act lively likely involved negotiating the term of pardon he'd receive when the president left office. that's also in the background here that you have to remember. is he particularly invested in what is happening because he's somehow beholden to this administration because of the clemency he was seeking and ultimately did receive? >> and like a good lawyer --
>> that's a really good point, yeah. >> they say, like a good neighbor, one of the insurance companies. i don't need to give them free advertising. but like a good lawyer, melissa murray there with a good point. mr. ban ban also trying to get out from a criminal trial for this convoluted bill dewall fundraiser where he pilfered money. he got the pardon. that was related to donald trump's possibly criminal effort to stay in office. he still held the line up to this weekend. i'm over time, but josh, finish your thought. >> really quick point. as you stated before, steve bannon in the past, as bad of a guy as he may be, he always seemed to me pretty shrewd about what not to touch to get himself in big trouble, and the pardon issue may be why he didn't just
touch it here, he grabbed the handlebars and road this thing forward, because it seems to me he's neck deep in this and trying to get out from under an indictment with serious jail time would be a pretty good reason to do that. >> yeah. you both kind of buttoned it up, and it speaks to why the motivations go beyond normal politics, normal grandiosity. ironically it's almost oedipal. you remember mc oedipus, melissa. it's almost oedipal that his per over to get out from one criminal trial landed him here in another one. we'll come back to all this. good to see you. as we talk about the militias and violence, we have more on that. and a january 6th committee witness with links to bannon live next. e witness with links to bannon live next.
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this is one of those days to start to week where there is just a lot of different news, and now we turn to an exclusive interview with a january 6th committee witness. the committee wanted to hear from him. so do we. dustin stockman was one of the actual organizers of the january 6th rally that proceeded the attack on the capitol. this was the rally where people were listening to speeches. this is before and different from the march on the capitol. here he was speaking out one day before. >> obviously we know what's going to happen at the capitol and that we need these legislators to do the right thing. we need them to look at the evidence that this election was stolen and then do the right thing, because if our votes don't count, nothing counts. >> now, after the insurrection, he did cooperate as mentioned
with the committee and testify about communications with trump white house and with house republicans. stockton has links to mr. bannon through the effort that a prior guest mentioned, this fundraiser to build a border wall with people's money, citizen money. it was a project that led to bannon's indictment for fraud, and then the pardon he got after working so vociferously on all these efforts from trump. dustin stockman joins me now. i appreciate you coming on "the beat." >> ari, thanks for having me back. i appreciate being hear on steve bannon day. >> well, there it is, let's start there. your reaction to both his defiance, different from, as we noted the way you approached the request for your testimony, and now what he's doing over the weekend, which he says is with donald trump's blessing. >> well, as you said, i am one of the cofounders of we built the wall and that project, that did successfully complete a segment of border wall i should
say, and the one person who has gone to trial ended in a hung jury, so we're not sure where that stands. i did want to point that out. but i did want to say, man, he's overpaying for his legal representation. i have a great lawyer, josh nass, has been representing me as a friend. i don't have the same resources steve has. he told me, i have deep reservations about working with the committee, because of partisan reasons and politics. and he told me this is the system. this is what you have to deal with. and the only thing you can do is comply and comply completely. and we followed that to the tee. we took a lot of heat of it in part because steve was out there saying -- giving the finger to the committee and saying that he wasn't going to cooperate in any way, and that caused a lot of backlash for those of us who decided to come in full early,
and people were wondering why we were caving to this committee. well, it's the law and our duty as americans. this is the committee we have. it was the republicans' decision not to have people on the committee to cross examen and provide another format. >> you're saying basically in that world, mr. bannon's claims he would defy to the end made it harder for other people to do and explain their cooperation. what do you think now? do you think he's been consistent, or do you think he's sort of -- >> well, he's obviously run out of options, and the -- when you can afford the white shoe law firms, you often think that there's a different set of rules, because in america, if you can afford great lawyers often there are separate rules for you and for other people.
so steve's found out, though, that in this instance, the committee's not messing around, the department of justice is not messing around this on. the actions that happened that day were serious, there's no denying it. the violence and the problems that it caused. so there's no getting around that, and steve's finding that out the hard way. you know, his 11th hour to try to fix it -- you know, i hope the committee will take up this opportunity to talk to him and let him testify and he can avoid any kind of jail. i listened to your last segment, and i think the panelists were pretty spot on. steve is very shrewd. he's also very cautious. he's been navigating professional politics a long time. he knows how to keep himself out of trouble, so i hope they'll take his testimony and that it will be revealing. >> i think you make a fair point, especially because the process here is supposed to yield the information.
as i emphasize, not target anyone for who they are or what they happen to believe, although legally he's put himself in quite a spot some that's bannon. i also want to ask you about what we exhibiting to learn in tomorrow's hearing. reading some reporting here about those oath keepers and proud boys. as mentioned you were one of the people planning the rally that day. the select committee has information about contacts between far right operatives and rally organizers, which could play a role in establishing whether trump had a -- you were on the inside. you've talked@committee about the split. did you witness in any way other organizers working directly with those mill itia groups or havina plan to turn arally into an invasion at the capitol. >> we definitely saw -- there was a definitive split between
the group that put together the ellipse, the rally at the ellipse in the morning, and the group who was planning a rally at the capitol. in fact, the group that was putting on the rally at the ellipse made several efforts to stop any other rallies from happening, specifically in part because the people who were organizing it were using vastly different rhetoric than we were using, far more revolutionary and violent and they were -- >> let me ask you, i just have 30 seconds left. when you talk about that rhetoric, did you hear it before the 6th as storming the capitol, was it that precise, those folks? >> it wasn't -- it's hard to go back and look now and say what was rhetorical and what wasn't. what we remember, though, is that tensions were extremely high, and we had an obligation to tamp those down to be able to present ourselves as a reasonable political movement.
and there were people who were not following that, and they were the ones pushing people to go to the capitol, and we were pushing our people not to participate in that in any way, and of course when trump sent people to the capitol, it felt like an affront to us that he had kind taken that more radical side and made no sense to us. radical side and made no sense to us.
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