since that mass murder. that is tonight's last word. i am ayman mohyeldin. thanks for watching. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ ruhle starts right now >> tonight -- still more compelling evidence in the house january 6th investigation, including proof of trump's reluctance to condemn the rioters. and new testimonies signaling new progress in the justice department investigation into the insurrection. then, are those cracks in a cozy relationship between the former guy and conservative media? plus, as gas prices drop, the president predicts no recession. whether there is or not, will americans ever by with their selling? we will ask a member of his administration, as the 11th hour gets underway on this monday night. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good evening once again. i'm stephanie ruhle. a top trump white house insider has now officially appeared under oath, before the federal

grand jury investigating the capitol riot. tonight, we learned marc short, chief of staff to former vice president mike pence, has cooperated with the justice department's investigation into the attack. >> i can confirm that i did receive a subpoena for the federal grand jury, and i comply with that subpoena. that was my only appearance before the grand jury. >> nbc news reports, short testified on friday. he would be the highest ranking, former trump official, known to have testified before the grand jury. short was by pence's side as the mob overran the capital, and called to the vice president himself to be hanged. short also testified before the jan six committee earlier this year. the wall street journal and new york times reporting, pence's top legal adviser, greg jacob, has also spoken to the grand jury. he was also a witness at the january six hearing back in june. and today, the january six committee is out with new evidence.

you remember last week, the panel released video of trump, the day after the riot, refusing to say that the election was over. well, today, a committee member, elaine luria, released previously unseen evidence of trump's resistance to condemn the rioters. >> do you recognize what this is? >> it looks like a copy of the draft of the remarks for that day. >> okay. and as you can see throughout the document, there are lines crossed out. there are some words added in. do you recognize the handwriting? >> it looks like my father's handwriting. >> it looks like, here, he crossed out that he was directing the department of justice to ensure all lawbreakers are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. we must send a clear message, not with mercy, but with justice. legal consequences must be

swift and firm. do you know why he wanted that crossed out? >> i don't know. >> earlier this evening, luria spoke about the significance of this new information. >> this gave additional detail, you know, what went into the speech. really, it was enlightning to me the parts that he crossed out. and we wanted to make sure that we got that information, because it provides amplifying details on what we shared at the hearing. >> meanwhile, the ag reports, the committee wants to interview more trump cabinet members, and then they are also preparing to subpoena the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas. ginni thomas, as you recall, is under scrutiny for her role in pushing to overturn the 2020 elections results. >> you and i have a voluntary conversation, just come on in, she said someone in the media that she was able to talk the committee. that's it.

come in, if we need to subpoena, we will. but we prefer, obviously, to just find out what she knows. >> as for trump, he has not been in washington since departing on january 20th, 2021. tomorrow, he returns to our nation's capital, to speak to the america first agenda summit. with that, let's get smarter tonight with the help of our lead off panel. yamiche alcindor joins us. nbc news correspondent and moderator of washington week on pbs. neal katyal, department of justice veteran, and former acting solicitor general during the obama administration. he has argued dozens of cases before the u.s. supreme court. and robert gibbs is here, former obama campaign senior adviser, and white house press secretary. mr. katyal, i've got to go to you first. what do you make of this new testimony? it's not to the january six committee. it is to the grand jury. >> it's a big deal to me, so the grand jury subpoena means that there is evidence relevant to a criminal investigation. and they have called in top

white house officials, two of them, not random insurrectionists or anything like that. and it's a subpoena. it's not some nice request from prosecutors, stephanie. it's more than that. and these subpoenas, to, me are very strong indications that the justice department probe is not dancing. and merrick garland has been moving slowly in the investigation. but this does show movement, and let's hope that this shows the garland is gonna basically prove to us, slow and steady does win the race. and why this is different from the past? we've known that there is a gran torino's discussion grand jury investigation going into the fake electors plot in the arizona. we know that there is a grand jury investigation into insurrectionists at the capitol, those with relatively low level people. but what this is, it's a request about stuff going on in the white house around january 6th. and both marc short and greg

jacobs have given testimony before the january six committee. we all saw it. it was live, a lot of that testimony, about just how crazy this plot was, and trump's aiding and abetting and encouragement of it. so all that is now being tied up, presumably, to the grand jury. it's a very big deal, you know, in ordinary times, the idea that a white house official would be brought before a grand jury's big, huge news. we are learning of it a little bit, just because we are hearing so much of trump's wrongdoing, and so much. but this is a very substantial step. >> yamiche, you've covered the former guy for quite some time. and we've seen it, time and again, when someone speaks out against him who was part of his circle, he always says, they are our coffee boy -- i don't know them. they were irrelevant. short and jacobs, how significant are they? how senior were they, at least in mike pence world? >> they were incredibly significant, and incredibly senior in the trump white house. of course mark short was chief of staff to vice president mike pence. before, that was devastated for

the trump white house. so, he was the face of the trump white house going to congress, negotiating with lawmakers. so, this is someone who is very familiar with the former president. president trump could not begin to even try to live up the fact that he doesn't know marc short. and mark short was incredibly important meetings. i think what's important about who marc short is in the world that is coming from is, that the vice president's office and mark short himself, we have not wanted to talk about january six too much. they have not wanted to sort of focus on it, because mark mike pence has been talking about inflation, but when you asked pence people, and i am including marc short, about january six, they don't hold back. marc short has been very clear and i talked to him last week out of the january 6th hearing. personally, he's been very clear that the january six, that the capitol riot was a shameful, shameful moment, that it was wrong, that the vice president had never had any sort of power to overturn the 2020 election. and he literally understands

the danger that mike pence is under, and what it meant for a crowd that's already chanting, hang mike pence, to then get at 2:24 tweet from trump on january 6th saying he was criticizing mike pence again while he was being evacuated. so, apart from the sort of knowing what the danger that mike pence was in, he is gonna be very familiar with the pressure campaign that former president trump was putting on mike pence, because he would've been not only in those rooms, but he also would have been, along with greg jacobs, they would've been the people who were counseling mike pence, and really, understanding the sort of position that the vice president was in. and they came late, thinking that it wasn't tenuous, and that it was with president trump was asking mike pence to do, it was simply illegal. and that's something that he can do. >> mister gibbs, let's talk communications that impact. we know there is a huge interest in these hearings. we look at the viewership numbers from last week. but this new video that was just released tonight, clearly, the committee is trying to keep public interest up. do you think it's working?

>> oh, absolutely. i think the hearings have become must-see tv. to your point, each and every day, something new comes out. i think a lot of us, myself included, were worried we knew most of what we are going to know about the days leading up to, and that day of january the 6th. they kept the tension going, by entering new evidence, new witnesses into this discussion. and look, they announced that as the hearing concluded last thursday, they already announced more hearings, which means more people coming forward, more people testifying, more people telling stories. so, if you are thinking about this as a tv show, and not that donald trump is, the season, the plot thickens. the season goes on. and there is no doubt, we are a. and it's creating, again, must see tv for people to watch throughout the fall.

>> and, we are watching with the committee is finding. we cannot see what the department of justice is doing. and that's where the real impact is. neal, our friend andrew weizmann tweeted this. trump false statement on january 7th, quote, i immediately deploy the national guard in federal law enforcement to secure the building and expell intruders. proof positive that he had zero intent to stop the insurrection, as he was all for it succeeding. these are andrew's words there. do you think he's right? >> yeah, i think that that, by itself, maybe not enough. but in conjunction with so much other evidence, absolutely. i mean the federal judge has already looked at this and said, it's more likely than not that donald trump is committed two felonies on january 6th. and then, the evidence today, that you referred to at the top of your show, stephanie, about congresswoman luria showing that donald trump struck out of the speech on that day, january 7th, lying about how the rioters will be prosecuted, and

struck out a line where trump would have said that the rioters did not represent him, or his movement. they wanted that out too. and if you take a step back, it's really startling to think about trump, just 24 hours after this violent mob stormed the capitol, is sitting in the white house, editing a speech, and he is not trying to find the words to mend our country or our democracy. he's just trying to make sure he doesn't offend the right, the rioters. you know, trump's dedicated more time to editing his speech, to appease the rioters that he did to sooth the country. and so, i do think all of that is relevant, if that question of criminal intent, which no doubt the justice department is starting to think about. >> but he didn't pardon any of them, which is forever interesting to me. yamiche, president biden said something today that we don't often hear. he called out trump for lacking the courage to act on january 6th. and some are rare for the

president. he doesn't talk much about january 6th. he leaves it to the committee and others. but here we are, trump is showing up in d. c. tomorrow for an event. and biden is calling him out. are we can expect more there? >> well, i think we are gonna expect from president biden is to really i think hammer home the point, that he believes former president trump is a danger to our democracy, that he failed to act on january six. in fact, that he supported gasoline on a hot burning fire that became a deadly fire, in which people were killed during the capitol attack. president biden, when i talk to white house officials, really trying to have a balancing act here, right? he wants to make sure people understand that he is as angry as most americans, that see former president trump as problematic and dangerous. but you also once, of course, to be seen as someone who's focused on the issues of the day, including inflation, and abortion, politics, and the pandemic, and so many others things that he has to deal with. so i think it's a rare moment for him to call a president trump, but it also shows that he understands that in this

moment, as millions of americans are watching this hearing, and learning new information that he wants his voice to be part of that. so, based on my conversation with white house officials, i don't think we're ever gonna hear from him say this every week, but yet you can imagine that this will not be the last time that we hear biden calling out trump on january six. >> you know, i cannot let you go on as we talk a bit about the secret service controversy. i want to share with committee member zoe lofgren said earlier today. >> i'll tell you, i have a concern about the inspector general as well. why did he wait months and months and months and months, before telling us some of this, that these texts were -- erased. >> secret service lawyers. what do the committee do next, neal? >> i think they've got to call in all of these other secret service top officials they've evidently lawyered up with private lawyers. they're not comfortable with

justice department who's representing them, which to me, is a pretty scary sign. i, normally, use the justice department lawyers, when you are a former official, usually, don't use them. because the real reason not to, using them because you're gonna to tell the justice department something that you don't want to tell them. so, there is something that is going on here, that's really bad. and current congresswoman lofgren is referring to the inspector general, also looking like part of the problem. his ig knew about this starting in february. that person is supposed to be an independent watchdog, not someone who aids in a cover-up. now, maybe the ag has some legitimate reason for it, but that's not exactly that kind of stop that the committees got a whole of the ig before them, under oath, right now, and get to the bottom of this, because this is part of a pattern, you know, secret service isn't telling the truth, something different to trump people are telling the truth, or afraid, steve bannon was just prosecuted for being afraid to go and testify under oath and the like. so, it is the constant mo of this administration, past administration, the secret service right now feels like

part of it. >> but then, if the secret server, or a several members of the secret service aren't going to use the department of justice lawyers, and they are gonna hire their own private outside counsel, who pays for that? the taxpayers? or the secret service members? >> it's usually, it's usually, if you do it, it's usually on your own expense, so they often have legal defense funds, and you know, crowdsourcing. of defense. sometimes, the justice department will pay for, it but that's usually when the justice department itself concludes, we can't defend for a particular reason. here, it looks like this is all driven by the secret service, not by the department. >> robert, should the current white house be taking a more aggressive stance, and the secret service controversy? i mean, at the very least, it's hugely damaging to the reputation of the agency. >> yes, stephanie, no doubt. it's damaging. i think this white house is in a particular interesting situation as the secret service

continues to operate in and around the white house, and protect the president. i agree with neal, they have got to call in the senior members. they've got a call and the leader of the secret service. remember too, there is federal records protection involved in this regardless, whether they got a text that said, hey, we are switching your phones, so protect your texts. we went through a whole presidential campaign around federal records. so, i think everybody is pretty clear about what happens and what has to be preserved. the notion that somehow, you should only be preserved because they were told to preserve them, is silly. there's plenty of federal protections around these records, and people have to answer questions as to what happened, why they disappeared. to neal's point, why did it take so long for us to understand this? all of us as we, all of this is really crucial because they didn't just have to be missing these few days, i think it's a little rich, even for washington.

>> a little rich indeed. yamiche alcindor, neal katyal, robert gibbs, thank you all for joining tonight. i appreciate it. >> when we come back, capitol police officer harry dunn is here on the so-called party of law and order. and stunning revelations from the january six committee. and later, as gas prices drop, the president says, we are going to avoid a recession. we will ask a top white house official what that actually means for americans right now? and what to expect in the months ahead? the 11th hour just getting underway on this very busy monday night. ♪ ♪ ♪ and it turns out the general is a quality insurance company that's been saving people money for nearly 60 years. for a great low rate, and nearly 60 years of quality coverage- go with the general.

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defeated former president of the united states watched it all happen, as he sat in the comfort of a private dining room next to the oval office. while he was doing that by vlaun forsman officer subject to the media hell for three hours. you can't be pro insurrection and pro cop. >> law enforcement officers are still struggling with what happened on january six. here is a reminder of some of what we heard from capitol police officer, harry dunn, almost one year ago today. >> it's within a sentiment that says, everybody is trying to make january six political. well, it's not a secret that it was political. they literally were there to stop the steal.

telling the truth shouldn't be hard. fighting on january six, that was hard! >> i now have the honor and privilege of welcoming capitol police officer, harry dunn, joining us tonight. officer dunn, thank you so much for being here. you have been inside the room where the hearings are happening. you've heard the testimony, you've heard the evidence. what does justice look like to you for january six? >> well, first of all, thank you for having me on. it's great to be on the program. justice, what does justice look like? i have to answer that question a lot. and often i struggle with answering it because i don't -- my answer changes selfishly, i want everybody to go to jail and no matter who it is, even if it's all the way up to the former president. but, realistically, we need to do something. the justice department needs to

do something to prevent this, to send a message that this is unacceptable. that this won't happen. we need to figure out something that this cannot happen again. that is what justice looks like to me. >> you are still a capital police officer. and i know you're not a political person. but, traditionally, republicans and the former president himself, trump, they called themselves the party of law and order. and, traditionally, they've had a lot of support from law enforcement. do you think that has changed because of january six? >> i mean, you know, yes. i'm a police officer. but i am also a human being with an opinion. i vote, i'm an american citizen too. so i'm very vested in this democracy too. but as far as the slogans and these rhetoric that go with the pro police and party of law and order, i mean, we hear from both sides. defund the police! all that stuff.

everybody has these cliché sings and these cool things that look good in a headline or on a camping slogan, you know back the blue and all of that stuff. but when it comes down to, it it's all about your actions. we don't have time for all of this rhetoric. what are you doing to show that your words are actually meaningful and not just a slogan or a talking point? >> well, it has been more than a year and a half since the riot. how have you and your colleagues been recovering after everything you've experienced? you go to work, day in and day out. >> no, i work with an amazing group of men and women who are able to do their job no matter what. and it's important for us, we focus on the mission of our job, and to keep members of congress safe, no matter what party, no matter what work comes out of their mouth.

we are able to look at the bigger picture, which is a big, it's a big comment. forgive me for using the word, but we are able to just look at the bigger picture, that's very important for us to be able to do our job, and announce integrity. that is integrity. that is patriotism. that is definitive democracy. not these people around here just running around with this rhetoric. it's infuriating. forgive me. i get worked up when i heard this. the black and blue, we defend you. what's the current president said was right. you cannot support insurrectionists. and you cannot be a patriot. you cannot back the blue and support insurrectionists. it is infuriating. but, you have to remain focused on the issue of doing your job and being able to do it no matter who is in that seat. because it represents democracy. not an individual. >> do you feel betrayed? do you feel betrayed by members

of our government, potentially members of the secret service when you watched these hearings? and suddenly, people aren't willing to testify. or suddenly, you have missing text messages on maybe two of the most important days when these men and women were on the job. >> you know, until they come forward and give their testimony under oath, then it is all just, like i said talking. they have a responsibility to do that. and, if the committee subpoenas them when and if they do, maybe to comply with those laws, and those rules that govern this country, the betrayal that i feel it lies slowly at the feet of the former president. he is responsible. and he had the authority, the legal authority, the moral authority. those were his people that were there. and he had the responsibility to call them off. that was his job. not only as the president, but as a decent human being. but, you know, the expectations of him being a decent person have gone out the window along

time ago. >> well, i know who is a decent person tonight, is you and i am grateful that you're here with us. thank you so much for joining us. officer harry dunn. >> thank you for having me, have a good one. >> when we come back, as we wait for key numbers on the economy later this week, we'll be speaking to a top white house official about what the economy looks like right now. forget the data, let's just get to what's happening. when the 11th hour continues. ♪ ♪ ♪ the 11th hour continues ♪ ♪ ♪ you can sell your policy - even a term policy - for an immediate cash payment. we thought we had planned carefully for our retirement. but we quickly realized we needed a way to supplement our income. if you r policy lapse without finding out what it's worth. visit coventrydirect.com to find out if your policy qualifies. or call the number on your screen. coventry direct, redefining insurance.

♪♪ ♪♪ today i'm reviewing "donuts." let's get into it. [coughing] guys, that is some good stuff right there. it's like donuts and cereal. no burn or anything. this is so good. >> we are at the start of what a lot of nicotine in here.

could be a critical economic week for the biden administration. nbc's tom costello gets us started. >> reporter: in washington and across the country, high stakes over four decade high inflation. up 9% year over year. in illinois, mother of three and special ed teacher, ellie alvarado, says it's taking a financial and emotional toll. clothing up 5%. gas up nearly 60%. food prices up ten and a half percent. forcing them to cut back. >> and now, it's back to kind of paycheck to paycheck, and watching to make sure we're not going into overdraft. >> reporter: at the food bank in loudoun county, virginia, so many families are asking for help, they run out of food after 90 minutes today. >> we are seeing 20 to 25 new families each week that are coming in, that are new to us, that have never gotten our services before. >> reporter: meanwhile, a new

aaa poll finds 88 of those drivers are cutting back on driving due to higher gas prices, while prices have recently dropped, they are still averaging $4.36 a gallon, nationwide. all of it, adding pressure on the fed, expected to raise interest rates and other three quarters of a percentage point this week. just a second quarter gdp numbers could signal that the economy shrank for two quarters in a row. a common definition for recession. but americans are still spending, and employers are still hiring. president biden says there is just a recession is not a done deal. >> i don't think we're gonna see recession. >> we have got a lot to cover on this. here to help me break it all down, brian deese, director of the national economic council for president biden's white house. brian, there's all of this talk about a possible recession, and a technical definition of what it means. let's forget that and just get practical. explain to us, the health of our economy right now? >> well, we are in a transition,

and it feels unique, because it is unique. we have never come out of a global pandemic, while dealing with the economic impacts of a land war in europe. so, we are in unique territory, but i think where we are now is coming through a transition from what has been a truly historically fast period of economic growth and job growth. transitioning to something that we certainly hope, and our aim is to be more stable growth. that historic progress really has been extraordinary. we've had the fastest job growth and the strongest labor market performance in recent memory. and that has actually given families wherewithal to navigate through what are challenging circumstances. so, we see for example, record low credit card delinquencies. record low bankruptcies, record low mortgage delinquencies. at the same time, we're seeing things slow, as you would expect in this context, but the

key thing right now is that as we are in this transition, the choices we make now, the policy choices we make now, whether we actually take more action, to lower prices, and make things more affordable for families, these will help determine how successful we are actually making that transition to a place where we are in more stable growth, without giving up all of those economic gains that we made. >> we have this complicated, massive economy, though, right? for a ceo of a fortune 500 company, for an hourly worker, for a senior citizen shopping at a grocery store, each one has a vastly different economic reality. so, when this white house is considering what leverage to pull, what's support to give, what economy do you look at? >> well, this president, our team, and our entire focus has been on a typical working class family. and is that family in a position where they can achieve

what the president likes to refer to, as a little bit of breathing room? and what that means, the economic security and the dignity, to actually provide for your family, and have a little bit left over each month. so, when you make decisions, and we operate, we are thinking about what is that monthly budget? what are the components of that budget? and what can we do to actually make things more affordable, while also, continuing the momentum that has driven, for example, a very strong job market, where we are seeing wage gains disproportionately on the low end of the income spectrum for the first time in a very long time. so, that's why you see us focusing on things like prescription drugs, which are a big cost driver, particularly for older people, but also, families with people with chronic conditions, for example. and also, then, very practical costs like internet, something you and i have talked about before. if we can make internet affordable for families, that can take 30, 50, 100 bucks off a families typical monthly budget. those are the constant kinds of

things that actually people are sitting around kitchen tables and talking about, and figuring out how to make these trade-offs. that's where our focus is. >> prescription drugs, internet, usually important things, and almost every american household. do you think people realize that's what you're doing? because politically speaking, you need to sell this to the american people, so they are aware? >> look, i think that's the most troublesome to the economy is gas prices, because there is a very visible price on almost every corner in almost every community in the country. and on that score, gas prices are now down about 70 cents. 70 cents in the last six weeks, and for a typical two car driving family, that's about 100 bucks in savings. burma. per month. people certainly see that and they certainly feel that. but beyond that, our view is that good policy makes good

politics. and the more that we can, for example, encourage more people to sign up for the affordable activity program, if you let me do a blog, get internet. gov. you can go on, you can find out if you are one of 50 million americans who can actually benefit from this program, and get lower cost internet. the more that we do our job, and make these programs available, make them accessible, and make them clear, the more people will understand and across time, they will feel that in their lives. i think that people want is for us to be focused on doing our job, providing these benefits in a way that, again, helps the macro economy make this transition at the same time. and that's what we are here to do. >> gas prices are definitely going down. you are right about that. here's the tricky thing, really, for the white house. people were certainly complaining when they were going up. you are not hearing that many people complementing it, or thrilled. they are talking at the kitchen

table about the good news, about gas prices going down. so, you have the challenge of getting the american people positive about the economy. it's very psychological. how we feel about the economy impacts how we behave. how do you change the way people think, because we are in an economic recovery? >> well, look, the way people feel is the way people feel and it's their lives reality, and certainly, our goal is not to try to change or convince people otherwise. but i do think that you are right. some of this is about the way things are covered. there was a lot more coverage than we've actually seen him doing scans of media an analysis, a lot more coverage when gas prices were going up and then they were going down. so, some of the things we're trying to do is make very clear to the american people, when those things happen, that they can benefit from them, and that they have an impact in their lives. the president spoke about that issue on friday, and he will speak more about that this week. and we will keep at that. and at the same time, we are gonna keep things that people may not understand as direct as

gas prices, but make a huge difference in their lives. today, we had a set of ceos and labor leaders of the white house to talk about the issue of semiconductors, computer chips, where people may not be before this crisis after the understood their sensuality now economy. but i'll tell, you who lived through the economy in the last couple of years, you've seen for example how much our prices have added to inflation, about one third of our inflation in the u.s. last year was a function of car prices. and that's principally because we didn't have enough semiconductors. so, we also need to explain, and we also need to deliver, on addressing issues like fact, issues that will also mean more jobs, more manufacturing capacity in the united states. but also, rebuilding the stability of our supply chains. i think we have all seen in one way or another, because we couldn't get a good that we needed, or we had to pay too much for another good, that our supply chains were too fragile going into this crisis. and we've got a lot of work to repair them. but on something like semiconductors, we could do something practical that i

think a lot of people understand how it affected their lives. >> bring on the chips. bring on the semiconductors and secure that domestic supply chain. good news around. brian, thanks for joining us tonight. i appreciate it. >> coming up next, can some of his favorite conservative news outlets finally be turning on the former guy? we will be asking the author of a new book, the big lie. when the 11th hour continues. new book, the big lie. when the 11th hour continues when the 11th hour continues his underhand sky serve? on fire. his grilling game? on point. and his a1c? ron is on it. scular death for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease. and jardiance may help you lose some weight. jardiance may cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare life-threatening bacterial infection

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minutes makes him look horrific. >> it's not just me that is saying that donald trump is unfit for office. it is other entities earned by rupert murdoch it's their new york post and their editorial on friday. it's the wall street journal, they said the same thing after our hearing on thursday night. so, i am going to continue to be guided by making sure i do my duty and making sure that the american people understand the truth. >> and, to that very point, here is what the wall street journal editorial board had to say. quote, characters revealed in a crisis and pence passed his january 6th trial. trump orderly filled his. the new york port, editorial board to get even further writing, trump has proven himself unworthy to beat this country's chief executive, again. we are lucky to have with us tonight, we jonathan lemire, political's white house bureau chief, and host of msnbc 5 am show. way too early! he is also the author of the book, the big lie. election chaos, political

opportunism and the state of american politics after 2020. that hot new book is out tomorrow, and i can tell you, from our friend jonathan lemire to you, it is a must read. jonathan, congratulations. i mean, you write in this book that trump started his political career with lies. and he's had lots of help from conservative media along the way. how big of a deal is it to see the right wing start to rupture and kind of start to turn on him? >> yeah, my book traces the origin of trump's political career, which of course begin with the racist lie of birtherism. and i recount how his lie about elections that they would be fraudulent and not conducted fairly, actually began back in august 2016. and otherwise sleepy rally in columbus, ohio, suggesting that that year's election would not be open up, and that chases how he planted those seeds, and

hijack the republican party and conservative media, to go along with that, heading up to the 2020, and then of course january 6th. this is a big deal. the book also both the curtain back a little bit. rupert murdoch, people forget, not a trump supporter. really critical of his issues, particularly immigration. but murdoch, and therefore his companies, new score, they like to back a winner. and once trump seized control of the gop went along. so this is striking that the two murdoch own editorial pages, the wall street journal, and the editorial post both came up so stridently against trump. we should temper. that fox news, another murdoch property. still very much supporting trump and its influence, far outweighs either of its editorial pages. >> well, if trump lies took us here. and he hasn't really faced any consequences, of course, losing the last election. do you think that january six hearing will be it? will he finally face consequences for the lies? the big lies? >> well, that certainly is what

a lot of democrats in the small subset of republican taupe. there is two ways trump could face consequences here because of the hearings. hearings have been masterful. we know we are going to get a couple more in september. one would be, we are seeing that is polling numbers, among republicans, slipped. not a lot. but have slipped. and then perhaps giving an opening to other republicans to speak freely against him, or maybe even challenge him in 2024. we're seeing former vice president, mike pence, in the early days of washington days himself. but in the other cases, in for more significantly, is that the audience of, one is merrick garland. the department of justice, of course, watching his proceedings carefully. if they were to proceed with the criminal charges, that would be an explosive political development, and a historic one, that would of course really complicate matters for trump going forward. timing, interesting the merrick garland sitting down for his first interview with our colleague lester holt. >> whether or not trump moves forward, the big lie doesn't dominate in 2022.

has trump and his allies field even deeper distress in our election system? that whether or not we have trump, he has caused fractures that are here to stay. at least for the foreseeable future. >> well, that's what my book hopes to really point out here. it's not a trump book. it's not even a january six book. because january six, though a culmination in a way of trump's big lie, as far from the end of the story. what we have seen from his false claims of election fraud as republican state legislatures, using that as pretext, as cover to restrict access to the ballot, in nearly two dozen states across the country. we've seen trump and his allies tried to install friendly state officials like state secretaries of state. those in charge of certifying election results down the roads. americans have real fears in 2022 and beyond in 2024 that their votes may not be counted. but the rightful winner may not take office because of what's happening here. and, certainly, the big lie is

a witness tests. and for trump, though maybe weaken somewhat, still the loudest voice in the republican party. the candidate season dosing, they'll back the big lie. they all believe that he lost. so, this sly shaping our political politics now in 2022, but undoubtedly in 2024 as well. >> well, we'll see how those candidates do come november, jonathan lemire, thank you for staying up late with us tonight. and, congratulations on your new book out tomorrow. the big lie, election chaos, political opportunism and the state of american politics after 2020. thanks, jonathan. >> coming up next, it might feel like we're reliving the 70s these days. but, in this case, it is not a bad thing. when the 11th hour continues. ♪ ♪ ♪ tinues ♪ ♪ ♪

>> the first time she opened her mouth and sang, summertime, and i saw her be bursting to tears, and everybody in the

room catch their breath, because she decided to sing, decided to sing, you know? i knew she -- >> the last thing before we go tonight. the return of an icon. as mother jones so eloquently puts it, unequivocally, good things don't tend to happen these days. moments so impervious to the horrors of modern-day living, that they managed to break the sense that everything sucks. but such an event arrived when joni mitchell herself appeared at the newport folk festival this weekend for her first full set in over 20 years. that is right. the legendary singer songwriter joni mitchell surprised a very lucky audience over the weekend, when her friend and fellow artist, brandi carlile, invited her up on stage. this was joni's first public appearance since a life threatening brain cancer since 2015, letter unable to sing or play guitar. she says she taught herself to

play again by watching video of herself playing, and only recently began singing with friends. seeing her progress, carlisle urged her to return to the festival for the first time since 1969. well, joining her to perform some of her biggest hits, like both sides now, and the yellow taxi. but her performance during just like this train, really stole the show. it has been a big, big here for the iconic artist. back in april at the grammys, she was named, music cares person of the year. a few months before that, she was the center henry. cbs news was with mitchell after her newport performance, and asked how she felt about her recent back-to-back honors. >> how did that feel? >> it felt very warning. very warning. you know, a lot of doors were shut to me, the hall of fame, they get me out of that for a long time. >> so you are feeling the love? >> i'm feeling the love, yeah. >> it feels good. >> feels good! >> it's a beautiful thing to see your honor this way. >> i think definitely, that

kind of softens people towards me. >> -- that you don't know what you've got until it's gone. well, we are very glad that 50 years on, joni mitchell is still moving audiences and feeling the love. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [applause] ♪ ♪ ♪ >> and on that absolutely beautiful note, i wish you all

a good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late with us. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> tonight on all in -- >> they do not represent our movement. they do not represent our country, and if you broke the law -- can't say that. >> new evidence about trump and january 7th. >> you know why he crossed that language out of the statement? >> i don't know. >> tonight, committee member elaine luria on the former president's refusal to condemn the rioters of the capitol. plus, how mike pence's right-hand man just testified to a grand jury. how merrick garland is feeling the pressure, and how the republican party is fully embracing its worst impulses? when all in starts right now.