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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  August 26, 2022 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT

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leaders like congressman kevin mccarthy and senator mitch mcconnell have gone among. major men have responded to requests for comment tonight for the washington post. that does it for us tonight. rachel will be here on monday. and i will see you back here on tuesday. now, it is time for the last word. ali velshi is in for lawrence tonight. good evening, ali. >> what you just said, i'm thinking to, myself we are not going to, we can be waiting a long time before those people respond. and can say something about that. it's kind of wild how everybody has gone suddenly silent on this thing. >> when you lost carl rove, you know you are in trouble. >> you've lost the game. alex, have a great weekend. we'll see you next week. >> have a great show, ali. >> tonight, we are seemingly one step closer to a criminal prosecution of former president donald trump. the possibility of the twice impeached former insurrectionist of the united states standing trial in federal court seems enormously more possible today than it did just a week ago. today, the u.s. magistrate
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judge, bruce reinhart, who authorized the search warrant of donald trump's florida home released the redacted affidavit. that is what you are looking out. the blast is the redactions. it was used by the fbi to support the search. the affidavit says, quote, there is probable cause to believe that evidence of obstruction will be found at donald trump's florida home. the redacted affidavit gives us a window into what the fbi expected to find and found during their search of mar-a-lago. quote, the fbi's investigation has established that the documents bearing classification markings, which appear to contain national defence information were among the materials contained in the 15 boxes and were stored at the premises in an authorized location. further, there is probable cause to believe that additional documents that contained classified ndi, or that are presidential records subject to retention requirements currently remain at the premises, and quote.
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now, the affidavit describes how the department of justice sought to search donald trump's florida home, after retrieving an initial batch of classified documents, that contained information about, quote, clandestine human sources, information relating to human intelligence activities, capabilities, techniques, processes, and procedures. now, these documents should have been kept in a secure location. but the affidavit explains how at the most incompetent and dangerous president in history allowed classified information to be, quote, unfolded, intermixed with other records, and otherwise on properly identified. but here's the thing. documents that were released with the affidavit explain how it can be viewed as a roadmap for the criminal prosecution of the former president, with probable cause that the former president actually obstructed justice. here is an example. quote, although the public is now aware that the government executed a search warrant at
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the premises owned by the former president, and seized documents marked as classified, the affidavit is replete with further details that would provide a roadmap for anyone intent on obstructing the investigation. maximizing the governments access to untainted facts increases its ability to make a fully informed prosecute of decision. no president in the history of the united states have ever been criminally prosecuted, after leaving office. however, the department of justice, the fbi, and judge bruce reinhart believed that there was real cause that actual crimes were being committed by the former president, that warranted a search of his private residence. there is even more evidence of the legal danger donald trump faces. in that same memo that was released with the affidavit, in the explanation for why the redactions were necessary. quote, the materials of the government marked for a reduction in the attached document must remain sealed to
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protect the safety and privacy of a significant number of civilian witnesses, in addition to law enforcement personnel, as well as to protect the integrity of the ongoing investigation, and to avoid disclosure of grand jury material in violation of the federal rules of criminal procedure. a significant number of civilian witnesses. an ongoing investigation to avoid disclosure of grand jury material. these are races and that can only add to donald trump's growing fear that he could finally face actual consequences, because this should be enough proof. for attorney general merrick garland, to criminally prosecute donald trump. tonight, in an article titled, donald trump is not about the law, the new york times editorial board writes, quote, no matter how careful mr. garland's, or how measured the prosecution might be, there is a real and significant risk from those who believe that any criticism of mr. trump
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justifies an extreme response. yet it is a far greater risk to do nothing when action is cold for. nothing when action is cold for. >> we are joined on this important and historic night by our panel of legal experts. barbara mcquade, a former united states attorney at law professor at the university of michigan law school. jill wine-banks, who served as an assistant watergate prosecutor. both of them are msnbc legal analysts, and co-hosts of the podcast, sisters in law. mark zaid is an attorney who specializes in national security and security clearances. thank you all for being with us tonight. barbara, i don't know how many days and nights this team has spent thinking about these things, and ways in which the former president may have had transitions of the law, or at least, of norms. but it is a very stuff in this redacted affidavit that is about lives, it's about danger, that's about national security, we are past the point of this was carelessness, where this was a bad record keeping. there is something in here that
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has led people to believe that this could actually be the think that donald trump is prosecuted for. >> yeah, i think there are some things that are disclosed in this affidavit, that makes me agree with you that it's more likely today than it was before, that there would be a prosecution. one of the things we now know is that as far back as may of 2021, the national archives was involved in a dialogue with donald trump to get these documents back. so, he's been on notice for all that time. he had documents that didn't belong with him, that were classified, that contains national defence information, that was lying along mar-a-lago. we learned today, also, they found these documents, not just in the storage room, but in something called the presidential suite, and something called the 45 office, and something called the pine room. what is that? the place for people to have a drink after they play golf? i don't know. it's beyond careless, reckless. and we also learned the nature of the secrets. it includes intelligence, human intelligence, that's the stuff
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where we got assets in foreign countries being managed by case officers of the cia. and visor material, that is information that is collected, by definition, includes prominent intelligence information and terrorism information. so, these are some really, really sensitive documents. they are lying around all over the place at mar-a-lago. and trump is on notice, for more than a year, that he has these things, and he needs to return them. i can't see how he evades criminal charges, unless there's something in those redactions, that is exonerating. >> jill wine-banks, you have watched everything that donald trump has done in this presidency. but you also watched something that a different president did. there is a watergate enis to this, in that the bubbly-ness of it, the intermixing of documents with i don't know what, the underwear, other things, makes it seem like it's not a secret as it is. but what barbara just sent, there is stuff in here, that had no business being in the president's house. and it's been there for 18 months. we have no idea what those ndi,
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would that information about human intelligence, what those fisa documents? who has seen them? where they might have been? oh my to photocopy them? we just don't know. it seems dumb, but this might be the most serious thing yet. >> this is very serious. and i say not just as a watergate prosecutor, there was a former general counsel of the army, familiar very much with human intelligence, signal intelligence. and national security. and this is stuff that was, some of it, was in the hallway going to the public pool. anybody could have done gone past it. it wasn't locked up appropriately. and besides the national security applications, all of this belongs to the american people, to the national archives. even the things that are just presidential records, that aren't classified, should not be at mar-a-lago. they are not donald trump's documents. they are the peoples documents. they are there for history to study. and so, it's really a shame
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that he has those. and one of these laws would bar him from ever running from office, should he be convicted of that particular offense. but all of them are very serious offenses, and all of them put at risk our national security. and he knew he had them. as you pointed out, he is known for a long time, the national archives has been saying, please we turn our documents. you have classified documents. they removed classified documents. they removed 15 cartons of them, and now, they just took away 25 cartons more, after he said, there is nothing left. i have given you everything. that wasn't true. they obviously got recent information from someone, that cost them to be alarmed, and to go in there. >> it's lost on no one that joe's been tonight as a padlock. mark, let's talk about some of these things. there is a general view amongst people in intelligence and political critics of the
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intelligence operations in the united states, the stuff is over classified. and there is some argument that at lower levels of stuff, that is otherwise existing in the public domain, someone would have testified about it in congress, but these documents remained classified, and sometimes, they don't get unclassified enough time for people, researchers, journalists, they get access to them. that is not what you are talking about in some of these cases. there are markings on some of these things that were taken from mar-a-lago, that i am unfamiliar with. and i was not familiar with until today. they are at a high level of intelligence that does, possibly, lead to exposure of people like intelligence gathering spice, people who work in other countries. >> no, exactly. i have spent 30 years, challenging the classification system of the u.s. government to declassify information, because even the most senior government officials will testify before congress, that probably up to 50% of information is over classified. but i also represent some of the most covert operatives who
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work for our government, both assets, foreign assets, who work overseas. and also, our people, who if they were caught in their foreign countries, could be executed. and what this affidavit showed us in particular, we knew about, okay, as c i information, sensitive compartmented information was received. that's bad. but then, to read about these dissemination controls on the documents, such as human, hcs, human intelligence as barbara talked about, that's talking about my clients who could be potentially at risk, or the fisa material from the former intelligence act court, which is trying to encounter a foreign agents who are operating here in the united states. to think that these records were willy-nilly floating around mar-a-lago for a year and a half is unthinkable. >> so, here's the thing. barbara, there are lots of people have been writing about
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this, like you all, who actually know about these things, who have said tonight, this actually could lead to a prosecution. for some people, that's a fever dream, that one day donald trump would be prosecuted for something. but what we have to get to, and i don't know what you think about this, is whether or not this was reckless, and careless, and i don't know what, or whether this is dangerous de facto? in other words, is there something nefarious and that may have been going on with these documents? or with this information? and does that matter? >> so, i think a technical violation is probably already established. this is based on the facts that we know. but as we learned during the hillary clinton investigation, when james comey famously made a statement about why the fbi was recommending no charges there, it's the justice department typically declines to prosecute, unless there is a willful violation of the law. when people are merely negligent, and they make a mistake, and they bring something home, and they didn't know it was their, typically, that person may get fired.
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they may lose their security, they may be disciplined. but typically, not prosecuted. here, we do have what appears to be a willful violation, because as we just said, donald trump has been battling with the archives for 18 months over this. so, he's been on notice of it. but i imagine part of the ongoing investigation that is referenced in the search warrant is to answer some of those questions, ali. why did he have this? have any copies been made and disseminated to anyone else but, who don't have access to this search, shouldn't be looking at this material? was it being used for some improper purpose? was it being sold? was it given to any of our adversaries? those are the kinds of questions that i think would matter and making the charging decision for the egregious level of violation here. >> all right, you talk about making a charging decision. jill wine-banks, 18 u.s. code, 793, is about gathering, transmitting, or losing defense information. the tweets will ever be interested with or having a lawful position, or control of any document, writing, or
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information, relating to the national defence, number one, through growth and negligence permits the same to be removed from his proper case of custody, were number two, having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody, and fails to make report of such laws, theft, obstruction, destruction, to superior officer, and shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years or both. how does this relate to what we learned today? >> well, as barbara just pointed out, we know for sure that there is a kelly's a technical violation. he has the documents that are presidential records, and that are also national defense information. so, he's violating lost by just possessing them. and in this case, he is on notice that he possesses them. and he is saying, i'm not giving them back anyway. that is a deliberate and nefarious conduct. that is the kind of think that if it isn't prosecuted leads to
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further repetition by other malign actors. so, i think that in this case, what you started with in your introduction, is that it would be far worse to do nothing. and i have long believed that even a sitting president could be indicted. i argued for that during watergate, and i certainly argued, as soon as richard nixon resigned, that a former president could be indicted. and donald trump is a former president who is not above the law, whatever you think about indicting a sitting president. he is an ordinary citizen now, who is in possession of documents, that he shouldn't have even had at his private residence, while he was president. the it needs to be in a scif. it needs to be secured. it needs to be locked up. and i'm not even sure that he currently has the kind of security clearance that would allow him to view these documents at all, even if he was in a scif. >> the mark zaid, something gilles just said, there if you don't prosecute this, it could
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lead to further action by malign actors. again, i just want to underscore what you said earlier. this is very real for you in some of the people you represent. this is not an abstraction that, all right, it was an accident. he took stuff he shouldn't have taken. we don't know what happened in 18 months, whether people your present or know of or named, and their information was either given, or sold, or exchanged for some future benefit. >> we have no idea. and there was news breaking today about someone who was a fake harris, walking around mar-a-lago, and taking photos with the president. and chinese spies or perceived chinese agents have been at mar-a-lago. barbara was right about how these cases are usually handled. i've been involved in espionage act cases, both administratively, and on the defense side. most of these cases are handled administratively, security clearance laws, termination. very few cases are prosecuted. the times when those cases are prosecuted are generally when
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the information is so massive, like a hoarder, or where someone deliberately leaked it to the media, or certainly to a foreign power. i'm a little more conservative than some of my colleagues who comment on all the networks, other than that one network, is that i'm not yet there about donald trump himself. i think this affidavit today is making some one or more persons a lot more nervous than before. clearly, i do think crimes are committed. i am yet not there to know about the answers to questions about donald trump per se. what did he do? did he touch these documents? what access did he have? when we saw the information from june to the search earlier this month, with the lawyers saying, oh, we gave you everything. we have nothing left. clearly, someone was either misled, or lying. was that the president?
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maybe. i am sure we will find out. but there was someone, one or more people, clearly have committed a variety of crimes, and those may be the people we see indicted first, before we get to donald trump. i >> want to thank you all for your time and your analysis. we are all a lot smarter for, barbara mcquade, jill wine-banks and mark zaid. appreciate it. still ahead as, we learn the true depth of just how much sensitive classified information the former president of the united states had in boxes of his florida resort, one thing you can but without a lot today among d.c. lawmakers, damage assessment. congressman eric swalwell, number of the house intelligence committee, joins us next. us next.
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that is. democrats on several committees denounced trump's mishandling of information, and urged the intelligence committee to conduct a damage assessment, to see how badly donald trump has threatened national security. the house intelligence committee chair adam schiff said, quote, the redacted affidavit makes clear jump kept highly classified national defense information at the public resort. if that wasn't alarming enough, some wasn't even in folders, merely intermixed with new scoots and other debris. the senate intelligence committee chair mark warner, who noted his committees requests, has made on apart bipartisan basis, stress that the doj's investigation must be allowed to proceed without interference. also the house oversight committee chair, carolyn maloney, also demanded a damage assessment, adding, quote, trump's reckless handling of our country's most sensitive documents placed our national security at grave risk and blatantly violated the presidential records act. congressman eric swalwell, a member of the house intelligence committee, who will join us next, made this observation. quote, why did he take them?
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unclear. but we know the same guy traded military aid to get dirt on biden. now, republicans have remained largely quiet today, with some criticizing only the lack of transparency in the redacted affidavit. not clear what exactly they wanted unredacted their. but one republican not keeping quiet, of course, donald trump, who attacked the investigation as surprise, surprise, a witch hunt. joining us now is democratic congressman eric swalwell of california. he is a member of the house judiciary, intelligence, and homeland security committees. he also served as an impeachment manager in the second impeachment trial of donald trump. congressman, good to see you. thank you for being with us tonight. >> you too. thanks, ali. >> damage assessment. are we talking about donald trump and the damage he's done to the institution by taking things like this? or are we talking about what mark zaid we're just talking about, there are people whose lives might be in danger tonight, because information that should have never been anywhere close to the public was sitting around in
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mar-a-lago for 18 months, apparently? >> real lives are at risk. talking u.s. troops, most importantly, because in the affidavit, they were forced to national defense information. that means u.s. troops, their movements, their locations, and that has been jeopardized by donald trump. it also means, as was referenced in sources, people who helped the u.s. government obtain or achieve our national security objectives. just tonight, the new york times is out with a new piece about a cia memo, regarding the loss of human sources. i can't comment, you know, on that memo. but the story, at least, highlights the concern that donald trump has this information about u.s. sources that jeopardizes their lives. so, these are real lives that are at risk. again, ali, which is so interesting here, or so telling, donald trump, four years as president, was the first president in modern history who chose not to receive an intelligence briefing, when every other president, and joe biden did, and does receive intelligence briefings. so, why would he take that
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information now? which can only conclude the worst, because he is at the worst in the past. he leveraged u.s. military aid for ukraine, to joe biden. so, you have to assume the only one with that information to help himself, if he ever needed. >> i know you can't tell me details about things you know. one of the things we are all learning about, people like you know about, are the names, the markings on some of these documents. we've all heard classified, and as we were discussing, issues about whether there is overclassification of documents. but in the list of classified documents found at mar-a-lago, written in the affidavit, which means the last round of stuff, 67 documents marked as confidential. 92 documents marked as secret, 25 documents marked as top secret. 184 documents there. and a lot of them had designations that, like i said, i never heard of before, but describe whether they are human intelligence, or signals intelligence, or signals like this. again, this is not accidental,
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memorandum, so when your stuff, that would find its way out of where it's normally supposed to be, right? >> ali, think about, you're absolutely right. think about the russia war on ukraine, our ability to stay one step ahead of them, that was because of the exquisite intelligence that our community, cia officers, an essay, you know, intelligence officials have been able to collect and share with our allies, and help us stitched together. that was the glue. armed intelligence was the glue that brought nato and allies all over the world together. so, if we lose our ability to do that, because donald trump is holding on to this information, is not even if he has to compromise in formation. it's the perception that sources half that maybe their ability to work with us, or their cooperation with us is not as secure as they thought. that could also have it chilling effect on future sources. >> lindsey graham tweeted today that this fall is well short of any meaningful transparency. we are going backwards, not forward. when it comes to explaining
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this raid on former president trump's home. lindsey graham is a lawyer. he is a guy who has dealt with a lot of foreign governments. it surprises me, again, the affidavit proves that this wasn't a rate. they've asked for this information over and over again. carl rove said on fox, seems like the department of justice kept asking for this. so, he is spinning a story here. but what sort of -- would lindsey graham be talking about when he says it's not meaningful transparency? does he mean the team there wasn't much stuff redacted, he wanted more stuff out there? >> it's just politics, ali. we are 80 days out from the midterm elections. this could not give the american people a clearer choice. one side, the democrats, advocating for people, the people who were affected by donald trump's recklessness, the people that have benefited by our advocacy for them, and the legislation we passed. the other side is entirely interested in politics. they've given us this frame, because they have shown themselves and the way that they are willing to fall over themselves, and do anything to
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defend donald trump, that if they win the majority this fall, they will go to congress and fight entirely for donald trump. and democrats have shown, with this, and what we've done, that if we are giving the majority again, we will go back to congress, and fight for people. and it could not be clearer, and this just shows that in a very, very pronounced way. >> do you think any of this affects that outcome? obviously, there has been some wind shifting at the last few weeks that are making some people think that control of congress and the senate is now a toss-up, when earlier this year, they thought democrats wouldn't control either house. do you think this kind of thing has any effect? is there anybody out there in america who say, defending donald trump's here is a bridge too far? >> again it shows democrats were fighting for women's reproductive freedom. we're fighting for your kids to be from gun violence in school. we are fighting for paycheck freedom, and lowering the costs of prescription drugs. they have no agenda. they don't have the contract of america 94. they don't have refuel and replace in 2010. their entire agenda is that
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they're gonna bring chaos to washington, because they're gonna focus entirely on fighting for donald trump. we're gonna fight for you. i think that choice is clear, and we are gonna win with that choice. >> congressman, good to see you again. thank you for joining us tonight. congressman eric swalwell of california. coming up, while there is a lot we still do not know about this sensitive top secret documents jump scratched on a property, that also has croquet courts, and something called the trump boutique. which we did learn today truly shocked national security experts, two of them. clint watts and matthew miller join me next. join me next astepro is the first and only 24-hour steroid free spray. while other allergy sprays take hours astepro starts working in 30 minutes. so you can... astepro and go. i occasionally get bladder leaks. i tried always discreet underwear. it absorbs an entire glass of water. it fit like a glove. it just felt like real underwear. game changer! it's the protection we deserve.
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for decades, i've worked at the intersection of domestic violence and homelessness. so when prop 27 promised solutions to homelessness, i took a good, hard look. it's not a solution. 90% of the money goes to the out-of-state corporations who wrote it. very little is left for the homeless. don't let corporations exploit homelessness to pad their profits. vote no on 27. >> as much as the former
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president would like to frame the search of mar-a-lago, that he calls a weight, as nothing more than a political attack on him, that we'd acted affidavit today makes it clear that this is anything but. the case was referred to the justice department by the national archives in february of this year, more than a year after trump had left office in disgrace, when the archives already had retrieved 15 boxes from trump's florida home, containing 184 individual documents with various levels of classification markings. the national archives initial review of the contents of those 15 boxes were covered before the fbi search warrant, quote, indicated that they contained newspapers magazines, miscellaneous print outs, notes, presidential correspondence, personal and post presidential records, and a lot of classified records, of most significant concern was the highly classified records or
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unfolded, intermixed with other records, and otherwise on properly identified. now, a lot of donald trump scandals over the years had been a little hard to understand, if you are not a lawyer. but this one isn't, at all. would you leave your most sensitive personal information in a drawer or pretty much anyone can get access to it? intermingled with all your stuff? no, of course not. unfortunately, that is what's starting to look like, donald trump has been doing with the nation's most sensitive information. and you have likely already heard the terms, confidential, secret, top secret, words to describe some of the material that donald trump kept at mar-a-lago. today, we got some new ones. the affidavit says that after looking over the documents in those 15 boxes, the original 15, quote, the fbi agents observed markings reflecting the following compartments dissemination controls, hcs, fisa, orcon, noforn, and si. the affidavits author writes, based on my training and experience, i know the document
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classified at these levels typically contain ndi. i'm not a national security expert, better than i was a few hours ago. some of those terms used by the doj throughout the affidavit jumped out at me. that last, one ndi, stands for national defense information. and it's exactly what it sounds like. it's classified information related to national defence. or as it's described in the united states legal code, information relating to, quote, essential defence, industrial, and military emergency and she requirements relative to the national safety, welfare, and economy, particularly resulting from foreign military or economic actions, and quote. this is serious stuff. how about some of those other abbreviations? si, that stands for signals intelligence, or refers to communications that have been intercepted by our intelligence service, generally speaking electronic phone, email, texts, but kind of thing. hcs, it stands for human
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intelligence control system. it's it is ignition for a report by an intelligence officer that's based on confidential human sources. or as my colleague andrea mitchell, put it plainly earlier today, spies, actual american people who are putting their lives at risk for our country. and if details about them, even just their identity were to get out, they could be killed. joining us now, clint watts, a former special agent with the fbi, and distinguished research fellow at the foreign policy research institute. he is the author of messing with the enemy: surviving in a social media world of hackers, terrorists, russians, fake news. joining us as well, matt miller, former spokesperson for the department of justice, and former special adviser for the national security council. they are both msnbc analysts. gentlemen, good to see you tonight. thank you for being with us. clint, let me start with you. i want to go through a few things that have happened at mar-a-lago, because there might be people, saying no big deal, they took some stuff. it was there. february of 2017, 2017, don trump was president, numbers remember reports over here donald trump discussing north
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korean missiles, north korean missile launches happening at the time with the former japanese prime minister, shinzo abe. may of that, here 2017, journalists broke the clubs wi-fi networks with weak encryption. november 2018, the college student sneaks into mar-a-lago. april 2019, a chinese woman attempted entry carrying suspicious electronic devices. january of 2020, a connecticut woman reaches security checkpoints in an suv. this is not the safest place in the world. for anything, it seems. let alone, really, really important stuff that have the cat lives attached to it. >> that's right. it's where you have a wedding. it's not where you secure classified documents. and i think that's what's consistent through all of this is mar-a-lago as, it was target number one, for a foreign country wanting to do espionage, targeting u.s. government. because they knew president trump was there. they knew that he used, it just as a residence, but as a place to conduct official business, and not only that, he had classified documents there
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which had the nation's secrets, and which were not secured, which we don't have any idea what the access to was. i think they came out in both the affidavit and recent news reporting. the fbi had said, who was securing this? how is it being over watched? how is it being locked down? who has access to these things? this would be normal in washington, d.c. circles, to keep control of classified information. i think the biggest part is that we don't even know who accesses these documents that or classified at the top levels that had our nation's most precious secrets. and they were unsecured. and who had a cell phone? i mean, if anyone was around these, with a cell phone, and on classified environment, none of this, i mean, not one thing about this, ali, would be acceptable in the united states government. if you, or i, or math, or any of us were involved in a situation like this, we would never, one lose our clearances immediately. number two, we would definitely be investigated, and be promptly this prosecuted for such reckless behavior, with such top national security
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secrets. >> matthew, again, for a lot of people, all of this is an obstruction, right? i've never seen a secret, top secret classified document in my life, nor have i ever been invited to mar-a-lago. but there are actual examples of how this stuff can be compromised. there was an example of a woman who claimed to be a member of the rothschild family. one year before the raid of the former president seaside home, the woman whose real name is inna yashchyshyn, a russian-speaking immigrant from ukraine, made several trips into the estate, posing as a member of the famous family, the rothschild family, while making the inroads with some of the former presidents key supporters. the ability of miss yashchyshyn, the daughter of an illinois truck driver, to bypass the security at mr. trump's club demonstrates the ease with which someone with a fake identity and a shadowy background can get into a facility that one of america's power centers and the epicenter of republican party politics. how would you connect these two things? how do you make this abstraction into a reality for people who say, what do you make such a big deal of?
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there's just stuff he took, and it didn't meet the right process. >> look, you don't have to make too many jumps to realize how many people at mar-a-lago, and the type of people at mar-a-lago who could potentially had access to these documents, the place is filled with foreign nationals. it's filled with the type of doctors, have always blocked donald trump, i have always tried to get close to him, because they see opportunities. and when you look at the types of government, of documents that were floating around the state, they are the types of documents that would be a gold mine for foreign intelligence services, that would be valuable to sell, or provide foreign intelligence services. the signals intelligence, the signals intelligence, if it exposed, turns out valuable information sources for u.s. intelligence. if a foreign government official realizes that his phone has been, and he should stop using that force, and we use valuable source of information. but the thing that's most shocking to me is that he has documents derived from human
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intelligence, at mar-a-lago. from spies or assets the, spies got to turn over information to the u.s. government for them. at a great personal risk, in many cases. you would take that out of a secure government facility, the only place on earth where you are supposed to do that kind of information, and just have it kind of willy-nilly floating around the private residence, defies everything that you are taught inside the national security establishment. as clint says, if anyone else did this, we would be prosecuted in a heartbeat. and i think ultimately, it's why this case, when you look at all the factors, probably, does induct with an indictment, because the government has -- the justice department, i know when i was there, we would prosecute mishandling classified information cases, or leak cases, often the criticism would be the only prosecuting low level. you only prosecute low-level employees. you never prosecute anyone serious. if he isn't prosecuted for, this they will prove that statement to be true, and will make it harder for the
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government to ever prosecute anyone again for similar violations. >> clint, given the visceral reaction, among the three of, us you are in the field. you are actually one of those people who did things, and spoke to people, where that information being out there, again, not an abstraction, real danger. what do you think about this? what are you thinking tonight? there are probably a lot of people around the world, as mike mentioned, some of them might be world leaders, some of them might be another government, some of them might be spies, who are not sleeping well? >> yeah, not only are they not sleeping well, i just wonder what authoritarians are just laughing, if they already knew about this. did they know these documents were down there? two things that matt hit on both of them. one, human sources and signals intelligence. signals intelligence, by the way, for our taxpayers, they pay millions, or even billions of dollars to develop capabilities. so, if they can actually gain sources and methods, which bring us, which help protect the country. if those really get out, that is a massive loss to the public. the second one is for human
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sources. human sources are often the most valuable. they were fine at the intelligence. they give you that context, no one's to understand, from all other sources, what's going on. it's the hardest to develop, and now, think about that context with our foreign partners. we tend to rely on the eu and nato to share information with us. and we do the same. would you want to do that today, realizing that they're just setting some sort of unsecured structure down at mar-a-lago, and the president, at times, depending on where the country is, in has been very adversarial. former president trump, very adversarial with several european partners. would you want that? i think the damage, you know, it's hard hardly even measured or understand. and when i look at the process, it's also just a great disservice to the millions of americans, really, over the course of this recent weeks of this country, and the thousands we serve every day, who works so hard to protect the sources and methods, to then watch how sloppy this has been done out there. >> not, let me ask you this. there are a lot of people ten
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tonight, but as you said, this has got to lead to a prosecution of some sort. almost every one of them has come to the conclusion that doing so will further polarize this country, and actually could lead to more violence, as the initial search at mar-a-lago did. what do you make of that? what do you think of it? >> number one, you cannot give in to threats of violence, and shy away from doing the right thing, and following the law, because you're worried about violence. and number two, you cannot give a pass to anyone, no matter who they are, because of the office they used to hold, or the fact that we've got it may be controversial. a lot of people who you indict, might be controversial. you have to do the right thing anyway. and if you look the other way, when everything tells you, when the law tells you to indict, when the facts tells you to indict, and you look the other way, because you worry about violence, or your word about politics, you are really giving a veto to some of the worst elements in this country. and i would say, i've been hardened that merrick garland and made thing in an interview
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last month, is that, this was in reference to the january 6th case. but i think it applies here just as well. they are only looking at the facts and the law, none of these other considerations are gonna enter into their mind, enter his mind, when he makes these types of decisions. >> well, albeit, people who blame america garland for his soft touch may come to help in a case like this, where he says, i haven't been swayed by any politics until now. why would i start? thanks, guys. i appreciate you taking time for us tonight. clint watts and matthew miller. coming up, there was other news today, believe it or not, what we learned about our economy, and what it could mean for the prices you are paying for everything from groceries to the price you pay to borrow money to my house. ney to my house. leaks. i tried always discreet underwear. it absorbs an entire glass of water. it fit like a glove. it just felt like real underwear. game changer! it's the protection we deserve.
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inflation today. according to the commerce department report that's closely watched by the federal reserve, consumer prices rose less in july than they did in june. last month, they were up 6.3%, compared to a year earlier. and that is down from the 6.8% in june. but all of this is still far higher than where inflation needs to be. and trying to get a record inflation under control, while avoiding a recession is a hard thing to do. to take, the federal reserve chair, jerome powell, issued a stark warning, that the feds plan to fight inflation is likely to cause, quote, some pain. >> while higher interest rates, slower growth, and a leading market conditions will bring down inflation, they will also bring something to households and businesses. these are the unfortunate costs
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of reducing inflation. but a failure to restore this would mean far greater pain. >> so, avoiding that far greater payments of potential small uptick in unemployment, and economic growth may slow down. borrowing cost will continue to rise. as the federal reserve raises its benchmark interest rate. i wanted to do talmon joseph smith, he's a new york times economic reporter. we talmon, good to see you. thank you for being with us tonight. >> i've been a long time fan on your reporting on the economy. >> you're very kind. anybody who knows anything on the economy knows that if the federal reserve chairman says that interest rates are gonna go up, some things are gonna happen. the market dropped thousand points. the dow dropped 1000 points today, which leads me to believe, sometimes, the market is just stupid. there shouldn't be all that surprising, right? inflation is there. the feds gotta fight it. unfortunately, they don't have a ton of tools. they can increase interest rates. >> right, we saw the market today. the market, going up, going down, we've seen that all year is, a very choppy.
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in the end, as usual, particularly the maga and disease like the s&p 500 and the dow, they're going to eventually go up. the real stakes today, and why this is some similar moment in monetary policies that the fed chair, essentially as you said, admitted that they have a limited set of tools. and so, at the end of the day, the fed has increased the risk premium. the government bonds are now creating higher yields. and so, that makes some more risky investments less attractive. it also means that the cost for a lot of businesses has gone up. and you know, we've seen stacks, and 50s, some these speculative investments that were very hot last year, come down. we've seen mortgage rates go up. many of the channels that they have, available to them have already been used up. essentially, what is left is the, as the fetch a reference, there when he said some pain, is really having these effects of high interest rates, or higher interest rates to the
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labor market by unemployment. and >> you are right about the fact that overtime, every ten-year period, markets go up. that will ultimately fix itself. and if you got enough years, you are fine. the problem is inflation is actually a tax on people, right? you just pay more for things that you, you know, you are buying before. interest rates are the way you fight it, but it's the same problem. you are paying more, particularly if you are a borrower. they're trying to avoid a recession. did you get some sense that that will be successful? >> you know, it's really up in the air. we certainly have seen the panic about there being potential recession declines, and say, late spring. we've seen major indicators come in, suggesting that consumers practically on the higher end, the upper middle class, the affluent, are holding up well, then maybe those on the lower, and they have seen more of their income go to food and to gas. they struggled a bit more. and also, it's just one of the cases that our economy, in terms of spending, you see the
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middle class, the upper class, and the rich contributing more to consumer spending, which is 70% of the economy. so the fact that we have folks that saved up during the pandemic, and now, are still using those savings to produce economic growth, that's a good, overall. and the problem, however, like you said, there is a double win in which inflation hits those at the bottom the hardest, and yet, interest rates tend to affect those who are the lasting when the economy is growing, and will be the first out, where the economy has peaked, and starts to tumble. >> it senate wasting time. we hope what jerome powell said does work to help us avoid a recession. because it's hard to have both inflation, and high interest rates, or rising interest rates at the same. time talmon, good to see. you talmon joseph smith, of the new york times, we'll be right back. back
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